UKC

Just reading 'Revelations', Jerry Moffat's autobiography, great read by the way...there is an interesting section, back in 1983 one of the 'last great problems' was the much coveted unclimbed arete between Archangel and White Wand on Stanage. Moffat went up one day and top roped it 5 times....went back another day, top roped it another 5 times, went back a few days later, top roped it twice, then soloed it, to bag the route. A year later Johnny Dawes soloed it without top rope practice....so who got the first ascent?...

In reply to HappyTrundler:

Is this one of those lateral thinking puzzles where the answer is actually 'you'...?

In reply to Andy Moles:

Don't understand that...

In reply to HappyTrundler:



You really need it spelling out? I think the key words that will help you are 'A YEAR LATER'...

In reply to metal arms: Can anyone smell 'Goat' ?

In reply to metal arms:

No, you don't get it, and don't patronise me...

In reply to HappyTrundler:

Imagine you are driving a bus. When you start your trip there are a man named Jerry and a long-haired kid on the bus. At the first stop the man leaves and a businessman enters. At the next stop Johnny enters with his sister. Then three old ladies who have been shopping get on. After a short trip the long-haired kid leaves the bus and a man and lady enter. Paul and his dog Blue get on, while Johnny and his sister get off, and, finally, the bus arrives at the bus station. What is the name of the bus driver?

In reply to Andy Moles:

Have you been taking drugs this morning?..

In reply to Andy Moles: pmsl.

In reply to HappyTrundler:

A heady dose of caffeine, yes.

In reply to Andy Moles:

My name. I'm driving the bus.

In reply to HappyTrundler:

Have you been taking drugs this morning? ..

In reply to HappyTrundler:

I do.

Moffat - First ascent

Dawes - Ground upped a previously headpointed route.

That better?

In reply to metal arms: Dawes - Onsighted a previously headpointed route.

In reply to al123:

Fair 'enuff. Haven't actually read it.

In reply to HappyTrundler:

It's interesting actually that Johnny makes such a big thing in his book of onsighting what one might think was 'only an E6' - far more so than eg onsighting Lord of the Flies. After all Narcissus had been onsighted years before by someone a lot less celebrated (not to say less good) than Johnny, and that's a very similar proposition.

I wonder actually if Ulysses ever had another non-mat onsight? Maybe loads, I don't know.

jcm

In reply to HappyTrundler: I suppose a related question would be who got the first ascent of Flying Buttress Direct. Or The Prophet, or whatever.

Maybe it would be cool if guidebooks recorded "FOA" or "FGUA" for particularly significant routes, in the same way they currently record "FA (one point of aid)" and "FFA"?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

He also makes a big deal about headpointing Jugged Hare - the point being certain routes were tamed far more by the advent of sticky rubber than others. Of the three, I suspect Ulysses would be the one most affected.

>After all Narcissus had been onsighted years before by someone a lot less celebrated (not to say less good) than Johnny, and that's a very similar proposition.

1979 wasn't it? So not that long before, and I suspect it would be what we'd now call a ground-up - ie with falls. I went to Froggatt once in the mid-nineties with Steve Bancroft, and he remarked that in the seventies the ground around the pinnacle had been a good foot higher (you could/ can? see a tideline on the rock) and, in his words 'verdant green pasture'.

I think Johnny's ascent was remarkable even if it wasn't truly first go, without falls. The crux is the last move, and there are very few routes which so purely climb a feature rather than a series of holds. Johnny was clearly climbing incredibly well at the time - wasn't Silk the same day? Technically harder, and climbed ground-up - not many have managed harder in comparable style.


I suspect a good few, though that would depend if your definition of onsight would allow going up and down a bit first (mine certainly would). About the only route where I made a conscious decision not to use pads for history's sake.

In reply to Adam Long:

>He also makes a big deal about headpointing Jugged Hare - the point being certain routes were tamed far more by the advent of sticky rubber than others. Of the three, I suspect Ulysses would be the one most affected.

Surely Johnny wasn't still in EBs a year after Moffatt got his Fires, was he? I suppose one could easily tell by looking at that photo of him soloing Silk, which was the same day as you say.

I thought NP did Narcissus in 1977, but perhaps you're right it was 1979, and certainly you may well be right that what they called 'onsight' then was what we call ground-up now. Still, even if it was 1979 five years is a long time in gritstone climbing.

I'd say more than it being a question of stickies that it's a route which is very hard to onsight with confidence, and much more so when it was really the first hard gritstone arete (Narcissus is more face-climbing up an arete, somehow). What I find interesting, I suppose, is how very much that makes a difference even for the likes of Johnny.

>I suspect a good few, though that would depend if your definition of onsight would allow going up and down a bit first (mine certainly would).

It certainly would! There's always the legendary Russian who wandered along the edge and thought it was Archangel, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: There's a photo of Johnny on Ulysses in his book. He's wearing Firés. He comments in his caption that as a schoolboy he toproped the start in EBs.

In reply to Johns:

I didn't mean to imply that they weren't in Firés, but that it had long been a project in the days of EBs. At the time, the fact it required sticky rubber no doubt elevated the perception of its difficulty.

The other reason I think Johnny made a big deal out of it is that it was clearly one of the days he felt he was climbing at his absolute best, with a sense of deep rapport with the rock. I can't help but feel he was very lucky to crystallise such a day into a newsworthy ascent - it doesn't always work out like that.