UKC

youtube.com/watch?v=IpXIVSlrRcA& - technique critiques welcome!

In reply to quiffhanger: difficult to say why you fell off but was there was too much slack in the system?

In reply to quiffhanger:

a better question might be why did your belayer have so much slack out. Even for a clip, there's no way you should be falling that close to the ground

In reply to jamesgreenfield:

I bet is the belayer was standing far back from the wall (see the weight bag), and had given out 2m of slack so he could clip the draw. The weight bag did pretty much nothing as the tether on it is too long, meaning the the belayer went forward 1.5m so that's 3.5m plus rope stretch. Also why I make my belayers stand close to the wall

To the OP: As for why you fell, well your foot slipped.

In reply to quiffhanger: Why did you now use the arete more with your feet. Where you fell from I would have used completely different footwork, outside right on the hold the left foot was on and bridge out to the wall on the left, that is unless it's no bridging allowed.

In reply to quiffhanger:

you were in a position where you barn doored when you lost your foot placement.

if you had swapped your right and left food over (right foot on lower placement left foot flagging)imo you would have had a better body position to clip from.

you were rotating your right foot on the hold when you fell. probably trying to keep the door shut.

the belaying speaks for itself.

In reply to quiffhanger:

It looks like your belayer may have pulled you off by having the rope too tight.

In reply to quiffhanger: bad belaying. your arms look like you are gripping far too hard as your forearm muscles look to be straining.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Clipping with bent arms quite a lot. Bent legs, straight arms, unless you're moving up to the next hold, in which case you have to bend your arms . More flagging and twisting your hips into the wall would of helped. At the moment you're climbing as if it were a ladder and not getting your ass weight over your feet.

Hope this makes sense. Buy your belayer a pint to for catching you.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Your centre of gravity is way to the right of your main hand and foot holds, and your hand hold is to the left of your foot hold. So, when your tenuous right foot pinged, there was no way to hold it. As said before, swapping feet would enable you to get your centre of gravity over the main foothold.

So you go miles when you fall when pulling slack through - no great surprise. Give the belayer credit for managing to do the precise opposite of what he was being asked to do.

In reply to quiffhanger:

I blame your shoes.
Green shoes only stick to green holds.

In reply to The Green Giant:

Exactly right.

To the OP: have you seen the Gresham DVDs? Part one is particularly good on twisting/outside edge/drop knee/flagging techniques.

In reply to JoshOvki:

That was by request. I prefer a soft catch, so a loosely tied weight bag + light climber gives me that but stops them injuring themselves by hitting the wall. My belayer did a fine job with slack (maybe even not enough?) and catching me - you always fall further than you think!

In reply to franksnb:

Yep - problem is, I dont really have anywhere to flag, given I'm on an arete... Might just be able to keep in balance though, worth a shot.

In reply to quiffhanger:

You've asked for comments on your climb - granted it was about why you fell off, but feedback on the belaying has been given, why argue it? A lot of people have commented on the belaying, maybe its something you need to address? I know its usual to take things said on UKC with a pinch of salt, but imagine that amount of slack and you were lower down.

Perhaps the belayer is skilled and meant to drop you that far, for the reasons that you have mentioned but the words 'There's belaying and there's bloody belaying' come to mind!

In reply to quiffhanger:

Flagging doesn't require anything to flag on...Balance it is.

In reply to The Green Giant:

Sure: problem is, they're really small crimps. I cant hang them with straight arms. Which is an interesting in itself and confirmed on the fingerboard: I need slightly bent arms to hold crimps at my maximum. Not sure if this is normal but whilst I am aware of straight arms and adhere religiously on endurance stuff, doesn't seem so relevant on power endurance routes?

In reply to The Green Giant:

Fair enough. Just want to concentrate on the climbing. I'm happy with the belaying (apart from that I possibly pulled up against a tight rope, contributing to the fall-off). It was a considered setup and a good portion of the fall was slow due to my belayer going flying so I actually fell "quickly" for less than it looks.

In reply to JSA:

I'd like to do it without bridging (plus that wall is further away than it looks) but as per other post, def gonna see if I can hold the position swapping feet and maintaining zen like balance.

In reply to quiffhanger: Wrong question. You need to ask "why did my foot slip".

Al

In reply to quiffhanger: I'd say it was your right foot popping. It is hard to say whether it would be better having your foot on the hold near the arête instead because the hang holds look small so it's hard to say whether it was worth the extra gripping power to move your feet into a more stable position or just beast it front on like you were doing. If you have to do it how you were doing it then I'd say just really try and get some weight over that right foot to keep it on solidly.

In reply to quiffhanger:

I'll second the Neil Gresham Masterclass Vol 1 DVD. He explains it really well and I bet you would improve by at least a grade or 2 from just watching it and putting into practice some of what he says.

Where is that wall by the way? I've got a feeling that I've been there, but can't remember where it is. Southampton?

In reply to quiffhanger:

I think people get a bit carried away with the whole out-side edge technique. Granted it's good, but it's most useful on steeper ground and when you need to get a bit more reach. The whole idea of it is to get your hips close to the wall.

On face climbing, you're better off keeping both feet on holds, it could achieve the same results but with twice as many foot holds for balance and taking your weight However, I guess it requires a certain about of hip flexibility.

In reply to Phil Payne:

Oxford Brookes. It's the overhanging prow on the right when you walk in to the lead tower.

In reply to quiffhanger: Ditto all the comments on the belaying.
Regards to your foot; would you have been able to lean rightwards onto the right foot placing more pressure through it and therefore improving friction? this would also keep your centre of gravity across more stable and less likely to barn door, you would also have a secure straighter (note not straight) arm on your left. It's difficult to say from here and I could be talking complete tosh but that is my two penny's worth.

In reply to quiffhanger: if you would have made the next move and then tried to clip i think you would have had a better chance, you clipped too high IMO, at the wrong time.

In reply to quiffhanger: Looks to me like the rope came tight as you were pulling it through. I find the same, on small foot placements, I can easily be thrown off balance if when pulling the rope it goes tight.
I would be interested to know if you could clip one or two of the clips at a different point also as it didn't look very efficent on some.
Hope that's the kind of feedback you were looking for. More importantly though get back on it and nail it. Good luck.

In reply to quiffhanger: On the other hand though, I just looked at your profile and think you could give me some tips !)

In reply to Phill Mitch: Yes I retract my advice in the face of the fact that I'm far more of a punter.

In reply to puppythedog:

I checked the profile first, and I know the wall, I climb there every week. There isn't a route up that line I can get past the second clip on at the moment! You can't really tell from the angle that vid is shot at but that wall overhangs by over 2 metres from top to bottom.

Good effort from the OP, 7a+ / 7b?

In reply to teflonpete: What wall is it? so it's a flat but leaning back wall?

In reply to teflonpete:

This is interesting; not meaning to cause an argument or anything, but does basic technique not apply to harder routes? Could a 'punter' who has watched Neil Gresham's DVD potentially point out where a climber on any grade is in need of improvement? It's an interesting concept, and I guess if you look at top coaches, who coach athletes who are performing way better than themselves provide the answer.

In reply to quiffhanger:

What about flagging the right foot around the arete so you can hook it?

In reply to quiffhanger: I can't be bothered to read everybody else's comments, and I don't care about the belaying, but it looks to me like you were trying to pull with your toes. That's fine on an overhang, but in that position, you needed to be resting onto them, not toeing down. That's what I took from that video at least.

In reply to quiffhanger: it tells you your answer in the name of the video, foot fail means you didnt weight your foot enough

In reply to quiffhanger:

One point worth thinking about, and I'm as guilty as the next man, but I notice you using your mouth to hold the rope when trying to get more slack. If you come off at that point, be prepared to lose your teeth.

In reply to quiffhanger: If you're trying it this way try flagging on the flat of the arete around the arete? It tends to keep your body more towards your side and thus makes the hand hold better.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
this.

right foot popped, maybe not positive enough on the small shiny hold.

not sure theres much to worry about. try again.

In reply to quiffhanger: your belayer is too far away from the wall imo and the slack you got was from
a) falling off whilst pulling through (cannot be helped)
b) belayer being pulled into the wall giving you,the falling climber, more slack.

Bear in mind if this was a trad route the belayer standing away from the wall could have a negative effect on your protection and the floor !

In reply to quiffhanger:

No helmet. Tut tut !

In reply to bighell: I've NEVER seen a helmet worn indoors...?

In reply to quiffhanger:

As others have said I think the right foothold wasn't positive enough for the barndoory clipping position you were trying to make work. More than this in general I think your choice of clipping positions seem poor. Do you really need to pull out yards of stack to clip? Are there no better positions higher?

In reply to quiffhanger: Short version: You let go of the wall, only reason anyone ever falls!

Long version: Your left hand was to the left of your left and right foot. While you right hand remained on the wall, you were probably pushing down on both feet. When you let go with your right hand to clip, you required to be pulling out from the wall with your right foot to stop you barn dooring out in a leftwards direction. Your right foot was the first part of you to ping off, it has sufficient friction to keep you on during part of the clipping maneavour, but not all of it, so something changed when you were in the middle of clipping. I could have been a variety of things but I would guess:
1) You changed the angle of your foot in the middle of clipping, probably unconsciously so that either it was less hooked over the hold or there was less boot rubber in contact with the hold.
OR
2) You shifted your bodyweight so there was less weight on your right foot (and hense less friction to keep you on the wall) and so your right foot came off.

I don't generally like clipping when the hand I am holding on with is not between my feet (in terms of plumb vertical lines down the wall), there are always exceptions but most of the time when both feet are left, or both right of your hand, you feel off balance and clipping will feel insecure and strenuous. It's often worth swapping feet (even if you have to swap back again) just to make the clipping safe (after all, who wants to end up injured from an indoor fall, there are trad and sport routes for that kind of thing).
Sometimes you can improve an off balance position, like the one you were in, by doing one or more out of:
Heel or toe hooking
flagging or reverse flagging
foot swapping
Getting a foot or knee bar.
As a wild guess I think maybe if you put your right foot where your left foot was and smeared a little with your left foot that might make clipping more secure but it's always going to be bloody hard to clip when your hand is on one side of an arete and your body is around the other side.

In reply to quiffhanger: The OP suggested 7c+, and from what i know of him it may well be harder. Slippery awkward small foothold features that i dont think were intended to be climbed as a route in the first place, that he's projecting because he has done everything else at the wall. Which means the technical advice is important, because clearly it is a genuine challenge for him, so to get up it he needs to climb it perfectly.
I am looking forward to trying it myself now, to test all this advice in the field!
From my armchair however, I will state the obvious, as the others: you were pulling with that right foot pretty hard when it popped, pointing the toe increasingly until it failed. So more body tension pulling your weight further onto that foot might help, but i agree the position looks to be more solid if you swap feet and flag round the arete to clip. But that would get in the way of the sequence, so it would likely be best to power on for another move or three and skip the trouble clip, avoiding the problem altogether. Belayer is, after all, good, and the fall fine. Not an issue here. Lets keep the belaying/fear of falling rants to their own threads...

In reply to The Green Giant:

>Could a 'punter' who has watched Neil Gresham's DVD potentially point out where a climber on any grade is in need of improvement?

You have a very valid point, I was not trying to imply anyone should not give their views on the climber, after all that's what he has asked for. I was putting across the fact that he was doing quite well anyway.
As for the belaying, I don't remember the OP asking for our thoughts on that.

In reply to jacobjlloyd:

The fall was just a slip. The only thing which could possibly stand out in that video was the monumentally poor belaying. Frighteningly common at walls unfortunately. Anyone who thinks that dropping someone that close to the floor is deliberately well judged is talking bollocks.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Sorry I can't say why your right foot popped.

However, thanks for posting this . You just reminded me why I never climb indoors.



E

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah, the fact that the bolt was by your ankles and you nearly hit the deck from 15ft is worthy of comment. Shit belaying.

E

In reply to quiffhanger: Can someone tell me where the wall is please? I'm just curios.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Look like the foot 'pops' off the hold, sugesting you changed how you were weighting it. If I were trying to clip there, I'd put my right foot where your left was (outside edge) and either smear on the front face, or toe hook with my left. I'd also also have tried to use the hand hold as more of a side pull.(Can't tell what the hold is like / if that's possible).

If you're happy with the belaying, botto line the caught you, and while clipping. Might we worth chatting with them about whether you're both happy with margin for error that you had.

In reply to quiffhanger:

I think you lost body tension. Pulling up the rope distracted you from holding the position and it was a tenuous one?

In reply to Enty:

If you fall while clipping, the chances are your belayer will have an armload of slack out. I don't understand why everyone seems so outraged by this. Yes you go a long way, it's not good but it happens.

In reply to Quiddity: Well said.

In reply to Quiddity:

Are you serious?

The bolt is level with his left thigh. He pulls up about a foot of rope ready for the clip and his foot pops. He falls almost 3 body lengths. Shit belaying - end of.

If he was on the 2nd bolt he'd have 2 broken ankles - get real.

E

In reply to Enty:



shit the bed, climber falls off making a clip, to find the belayer has excess slack out. Who would have thought it.

To be serious for a minute, as soon as I reach down to pull up slack I would expect my belayer to gauge how much I will need and have that slack available almost immediately, so yes even if I had only pulled up a foot of slack I would expect there to be a full arm length or two out at the point the OP's foot pops. Have you never fallen off while making a clip?

Yes it is a big fall but I think most people underestimate how far you can go when falling off indoors, especially if you fall off with an armload of slack out - even with a perfect belay. Clip by his knee, next bolt by his head, enough slack out to clip = roughly 1 1/4 body lengths of slack, plus a bit for additional slack in the system and belayer coming in/off their feet (which will be quite a jolt given the slack in the system) - so yes falling 3 body lengths seems fairly ballpark to me, and if it were me I would be pleased not to have hit the floor. Beyond that is between the OP and his belayer; the OP is happy with the belay so why not give it a rest?


the OP's feet when he is clipping the 2nd bolt are on the starting handhold ie. about two metres off the deck - 2 broken ankles wtf?!

In reply to quiffhanger: Not enough weight over your right foot, it looked like it was flapping around on the foot hold, you also rushed getting the clip instead of getting your body settled to be able to clip - you thought it was in the bag. IMVHO.

In reply to Quiddity:

Whatever.

He nearly hit the deck from clipping the 5th bolt - ergo with the same belaying technique from the 2nd bolt he'd be a crumpled f*cking mess with loads of posts on UKC like " Hey I was at the wall last night and the guy next to me had too much slack out and was behaving like a cocky tw*t, being a novice I wanted to say something was but I was too scared.



E

What I noticed in the video is that, you brought the rope up to the right of your centre line and as you did so your right shoulder opened up slightly away from the wall, starting the barn door. The position itself appeared to be sufficiently stable until you did this, so your movements when you brought the rope up was what caused it to pop. Could you climb up to the same position again and try bringing the rope up through your centre line to see if it keeps you on?

More to the point why is the guy to the right of you climbing up through a clipped rope? Not normally allowed in climbing walls.



Here is my analysis.
Your position is quite similar to the one at 50 secs where you were also clipping above your head. Here you brought the rope up in line with the centre of your chest (and teeth), so your centre of gravity stayed closer to the wall. In addition, it was actually a more secure position since when you clipped here your left hand was deeper around the corner so your centre of gravity was naturally closer to the wall and your right foot was slightly more central, so you may have been leaning on it a bit more.

At 90 secs your left hand was closer to the edge of the arete moving your centre of gravity marginally away from the wall and your right foot slightly further out to the right. You then brought the rope up over to the right, outside the line of your hip (rather than centrally), and you may just notice that, as you did this, your right shoulder opened out (rather than staying closed in to the wall) starting the opening of the barn door ...

Thereafter, gravity was then the main reason you fell.

In reply to JLS:

I take back my comments about clipping positions. While the fall clipping position didn't look great a second viewing suggests the others were actually ok.

In reply to Quiddity:


Precisely. Given that the climber was not all that far up and was pulling through slack to clip, there is no way the belayer should have been standing so far out or otherwise have allowed so much slack in the system (almost enough for the climber to deck in this instance!). It is, as Enty said, shit belaying; a fine exmple of the most common dangerous belaying fault so often seen at walls. A good lesson in fact.

In reply to quiffhanger:

More to the point: why were you being filmed?

In reply to Quiddity:

I'm quite interested in this topic - but I'm tired and need to go to bed. So what I will say is that if i ever fall with a bolt by my knees and I fall 3 body lengths - my belayer will get the hairdryer!

Night night .

E

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Very good point. Worthy of discussion.

E

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Even more to the point: if he climbs 7c+, why does he feel the need to be asking people on here what is wrong with his technique?

In reply to Robert Durran:

To climb 8a?

In reply to Robert Durran:

by 'slack in the system' I mean the slack the belayer has paid out to allow the climber to clip, obviously. I don't know what else they can have been expected to do in this instance, and I don't know how you can tell from the clip how far out the belayer was standing from the wall. I think you are nitpicking.

In reply to Enty:



Anyone dropping it from about to clip the 3rd bolt at head height with the 2nd bolt by their knees, on a typical indoor wall, is going to hit the floor. The quality of the belaying doesn't come into it. You need to be a bit more realistic about how far you are likely to go if you fall with an armload of slack out.

It is an interesting topic and perhaps one for discussion but I don't think this needs to be a witch hunt. Good night.

In reply to puppythedog:

Rock Solid Climbing wall, Oxford Brookes University Sport Centre, Oxford.

In reply to Enty:


Enty, easy to say that's why you never climb indoors when you've some of the fantastic crags of Southern France on your doorstep! Oxford, where that indoor wall is, is 2 hours minimum of pedal to the metal to get anywhere near real rock. Indoor walls are what they are, somewhere to train for the real thing so you don't hit it cold when you do get out.

In reply to Hilbert:


Really? In every wall I have climbed at, that is recommended as best practice for seconding overhanging routes - it stops the climber swinging out across the room if they fall. I even know two walls who have had quickdraws on toprope routes for this reason.

In reply to Quiddity:

I can't, which is why I said "or otherwise". If the belayer was not standing too far out, they clearly had too much slack in the system; nobody should come anywhere near the ground from the sixth clip if the belaying is competent. This belayer was clearly not.

In reply to Quiddity:
You need to be a bit more realistic about how far you are likely to go if you fall with an armload of slack out.

Absolutely. Hence the need for good belaying which doesn't add any more unnecessary slack - unlike seen here.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Thanks all. Gd303uk & Jake: looking at the route today I think push on is good advice. I might also try the footswap and flag but the left foot is poor so I think it might also pop when flagging round the arete.

Also, thanks to all who gave advice on the entire route. Obviously my foot popped but was interested to see if anyone saw problems lower down that could've contributed.

>
Very true, it was a last minute decision to clip there as I was feeling good.

>
Genuinely surprised. Maybe the perspective made it look bad but it felt like a pretty normal fall to me.

Quiddity echos my feeling nicely. I fall of a lot, unfortunately Maybe if you dont (or give of clear signs before you do and your belayer takes, suggesting a lack of confidence) then you don't realise how far you go in a normal unexpected fall.

People do risk groundfall more than they realise. For instance if you clip well above your head on the 3rd clip you'll deck: your belayer has no chance. 4th clip is touch our go. I tested this once - by pretending to clip then carefully downclimbing (not recommended!). Of course you shouldn't clip too early but we've all done it, maybe through fear or maybe because your on good holds before a crux.

I therefore instruct my belayers to stay close to the wall for the first few clips then they are welcome to standback after that. You'll see the weight bag is positioned so it'll be almost taut when standing below the first clip, so my belayer wouldn't have flown so far. After the 4th clip, I then instruct them to give me plenty of slack: I find (imo poor) restrictive belaying, where you're inhibited from pulling the rope through wastes a lot of energy and ruins flow.

When I get higher, I also don't mind my belayer taking a step back as it helps them see me on overhanging ground and give me a dynamic catch. If they're light I suggest a loosely-tied weight bag to stop then getting pulled in and hitting the wall but I find a tightly tied one contributes to a harsh unpleasant fall whereby you slam into the wall. I have noticed these harsh catches (which, dare I say, are the archetypical British trad climbers speciality) contribute massively to a fear of falling and consequently inhibited performance. If you don't believe me, ask any experience continental European sport climber: they take the piss out of our poor belaying regularly

Lastly, thanks to all who concentrated on my question and pointed out that I was content with the belaying. I hope anyone who's bothered to read this far will now understand that I considered the risks and, crucially, accept that they are mine to take.

-ross

In reply to quiffhanger:

Your right foot popped, it might not next time.

Alternatively a more promising clip position would appear to be right foot on the lower foothold, heel high, inside edge, knee and chest out right and groin tight into the arete, left leg flagged on the other face. That should be a stable clip position but it may not be worth the extra work and it may of course render the left handhold useless.

Another alternative given it looks a bit thin for messing about is climb past the clip, get it from above (don't skip it).

A soft catch is all well and good but you're a little too close to your belayer, a little too close to the floor at the end of the video for my liking. Just my 2p worth, take it or leave it.

jk

In reply to quiffhanger: Not sure if the right foothold is too high for this, but a deep outside flag with the left foot might allow you to lay back onto a straight arm on the right hand, creating a stable position to clip with the left. Otherwise in inside flag with the right foot might allow you to lay back against the left hand hold, again getting a stable position rather than using body tension.

Totally agree with you on the belaying btw, for those who don't think of it this way: the further you fall without decking or hitting a ledge (which isn't going to happen indoors), the less inwards momentum at the end of the fall (due to the narrow angle between the rope going up and the rope coming back down at the top quickdraw) so the less you get slammed into the wall. I've broken a toe from a 2m fall in the gym on a tight belay, I've never done any damage from falling 7 or 8m to head height.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Well this was the sixth clip and you nearly decked out. Good thing it wasn't the fifth...... If you're happy cutting it this fine, then that is up to you I suppose!

In reply to Robert Durran:

In my time I have also taken (and held) a lot of falls. It is often surprising how far you go (which is why i can be quite cowardly when above ledges etc). If you fall near the top of most indoor walls whilst clipping, and your belayer is taken off their feet, I would think that it is perfectly normal to end up just above head height. Obviously, there are two different variables in that scenario which are both best avoided but these things do happen.

In reply to Monk:

So you agree with me then, I presume; be very careful about having excess slack in the system since there is a fine line between ending up just above head height and decking out.

In reply to quiffhanger: Your climbing was fine, sometimes you just fall, but as has been pointed out the belaying was shit, i know for a fact I could have had most of that slack you had in your hand pulled through my gri gri before you passed the last bolt, you almost decked out from 6 bolts up, your belayer needs some instruction, there is no need to defend them with your soft fall crap, at the end of the day if I saw that happen at the wall I worked at I would have had words with the belayer.

In reply to Robert Durran:

5th clip: from 6th I stopped 1.5 clips above the ground so wouldn't have decked (especially as I clipped it harness level).

4th clip belayer was directly below me so wouldn't have flown so far, possibly a soft-landing on stretch.

3rd clip, as per previous post I guarantee you will deck if you fall while clipping above your head, unless your belayer is lightning quick. I dont recommend you try this

In reply to dan:

Then I definitely need to get you involved on some bold grit projects I dont think you can expect a belayer to take up significant slack mid fall. With a normal ATC, especially, this is exceptionally hard.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Decking out at the limit of rope stretch isn't a big deal, though, really.

In reply to quiffhanger:

On this occasion you may have clipped at harness level. Another time with "plenty of slack"?


Oh so that's fine then if you trust your belayer to judge the fine line between a "soft landing" and an ankle breaking deck out.

You really are clutchiung at straws now!. Why not just admit the belaying was shit?

In reply to quiffhanger:

Answering your original question; immediately before you fall you have your right foot out on a small hold quite high up in a postion which suggests your are struggling to keep that on. By applying some pressure to that I think you are taking your weight off your left foot (which incidentally you fidget with quite a bit on that hold if you watch it carefully) and maybe casues it to pop. You're a far better climber than me looking at your grades but it does look like you haveb't got your body positioned quite right and so you're not properly weighting your left foot. I wonder also if you are moving that foot on small holds more than you should.

As to the belaying; it is hard to tell but it does look like you go a heck of a long way given how high up you are. If you did ask for a soft catch, that does seem to be asking for trouble on a short wall. I often ask my belayer not to take in slack if I fall as I badly hurt my ankle that way once (the effect being to whip you back into the wall even faster) but I can't say I've ever asked for a soft catch where you don't have that much margin for error anyway.

In reply to GrahamD:

As long as it's not head first

Some years ago a friend fell off and inverted; the rope took him just before he hit the deck, causing his arm to kind of flick the ground, wrecking his wrist.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Because I have fallen of in many many similar situations with various belayers and ended up with similar sized falls. Maybe they are all bollocks but I instead suggest this is normal and the vast majority of people simply dont fall off enough to realise it.

>

Absolutely.

In reply to quiffhanger:


Totally agree. In my experience most belayers who are used to (and practiced at) giving dynamic belays are good at giving a long but reliable catch - in terms of stopping you in pretty much the same place every time from a given position.

The people who are most likely to deck out, in my experience, are those who are being optimistic about the likely size of a potential fall and are thus at risk of going further than they expect.

Most climbers are rubbish at guesstimating fall distances because they simply don't fall off enough and in varied enough situations - eg. with an armload of slack out to clip the next bolt. You watch climbers on most indoor walls and when it goes pear shaped, the vast majority will grab an off-route hold or the draw, or downclimb to the previous bolt and sit on it, or get their belayer to reel in all of the slack and then take a short but violent ankle-breaking swing in. They try to work out how far they are going to go based on estimating the amount of rope they have out above the clip and doubling it, which almost always ends up being a very optimistic estimate because of all the things you fail to factor in.

In reply to JonC:


I would argue if the OP and his belayer(s) are used to taking falls on that wall then they have got reasonably practiced at judging distances and probably know what they are doing in terms of margin for error.

Just read this thread properly and see that someone commented your right foot pops 1st, which it did. As I said in my earlier post, you seemed to be working hard to keep it on and clearly your body position wasn't right. Use a different foothold if you can't rock up onto it quickly (which you can't if stopping to clip).

In reply to quiffhanger:

Also, sorry not to contribute more to your actual question but it's very hard from the comfort of the armchair to evaluate what is going on without a sense of how overhanging that wall is and what those holds are like. It's very easy to get all Neil Gresham Training Masterclass but if, for example, your left foothold is, say, a poor smear and your left hand is directional then swapping feet or flagging just isn't going to work. I might have suggested dropping your hand off the arete and flagging your left foot under but again it totally depends on what those holds are like. I think you or someone else trying the route is probably best placed to evaluate your technique.

Without commenting on what alternative body positions might be possible, it looks like you relax tension in your core for a moment as you go to clip - you create space between your hips and the wall to pull rope up (and your attention is probably focused on making the clip at this point) - and as the force through your right toes drops slightly you lose the friction needed to hold it on.

In reply to Quiddity:


A lot of the folk mentioning the belaying are somewhat more experienced than you're perhaps giving them credit for. It's not awful but it is notable how far he goes. Were that me falling or belaying I'd be asking myself some questions about whether I wanted to be cutting it that fine from that height. By the time I'm at the 5 or 6th clip I'm looking for a little redundancy in the clips where possible, not just a soft catch. I'd not be losing any sleep over it but as I say, I thought it was notable and I'm clearly not the only one.

It's hard to comment on the climbing without a better idea of the holds. Anyway, I presume the OP is well capable of working a route out and refining the sequence. The straightforward solution: Pulling hard, moving fast often works better than messing about adding complexity to reduce the exertion.

jk

In reply to jkarran:


Firstly, falling while pulling up slack to clip is almost by definition not an expected occurrance (getting on for worst case scenario) so given that, to stop well short of the deck would indicate to me that the OP and his belayer had indeed factored in some margin for error/redundancy.

Secondly, to be frank I would expect experienced climbers to be a bit less judgemental and recognise that climbing is about making your own decisions and that the OP and his belayer are well capable of making them about fall distances, and can recognise when they have cut things too close for comfort without needing the lecture from the belay police.

In reply to quiffhanger: well dodgey belaying or what? Strikes me that most parties were more concerned with looking good for the camera. Even the climber, not very smooth. Bunch of girl's blouses. You fell 'cause you're not that good and more concerned with what others think rather than just climbing. Sack the belayer!

In reply to Quiddity:

They are, of course, free to go on risking killing each other without interference from anyone, but to post this video on of a fall with the amusing pretext of asking for advice on technique (your foot slipped, big deal!) what on earth did they expect to get in response on UKC other than a good slagging? Personally I am amazed that anyone at all fell for the technique nonsense.

In reply to quiffhanger: I dare to presume that if you had tried to clip with left hand, you would not have fallen.
I assume the right foothold was really small, bad screw-on.
Clipping with right hand, moved center of gravity to left, removed weight from right foothold, thus your right foot lost contact with the foothold.
A shit foothold needs more weighting to hold.

At 0:18, the match and swap is not really necessary I think. You could clip with right hand, below left arm.

In reply to quiffhanger: When you take your right hand off to clip, you raise he heel on your right foot which makes your foot pop off.

Agree with the dodgy belaying comments, way too much slack.

In reply to quiffhanger:

Technique wise:

First time hand placements and foot placements look really solid. Route reading good - red point attempt I should think. Safety / clipping good (a bit of hysteria on this thread methinks). Body movement initiation from legs / hip quite good (not on the first move though, you sag off that one quite badly), plenty of rocking over which looks effective. Overall impression of commitment, power and even flexibility in the hip.

On the other hand, not much, ahm, effortless movement with style, grace and dignity, eh? Obviously this is not a ballet class, but it looks like there is a distinct lack of any interesting moves in the video. Its just left hand up, right hand up, left foot up right foot up, no? To me it's a bit boring. You almost flag your left foot out wide a couple of times but stop just short, and there is a minimal straight legged drop knee (you need to be a collector to pick it out) at one point. That's it for an entire route? Any heel or toe hooks on the arete, flags, drop knees, undercuts, cunning rests, deadpoints, even just an outside edge. In fact any creative stuff at all?

The lack of cool moves might be you or it might be dictated by the route. Either way, I don' think climbing like this is going to take you very far in terms of learning how to climb, which is what this is all about, isn't it.

In reply to quiffhanger:

I did notice that you used the inner edge of your shoes exclusively. Not once did you use the outer edge, though I don't think this contributed to this fall it might be something worth thinking about.

Clearly you lost the edge with your right foot, which is probably due to lack of concentration or a chalky/sweaty foothold.

In reply to lmarenzi: Nice observations - thanks.

Yeh - the route is fairly basic power enduro for the first 2/3rds (although a good bunch of moves are delicate deadpoints). In it's defence there's a move lower down that you can tech out a little more (where I hesitate) and a couple of moves after I fell you use a poor heal for a very brief shake out before climbing the arete on both sides rather than just the left, with pinches and weird opposing palms to keep balance: best bit of the route by far, especially as you're bolloxed by that point.

I retrospec I should've picked an easier but more varied route. Given I don't have the opportunity to get filmed that much (first time), I wanted to see myself on something at my limit though as I thought it would make weaknesses clearer.

I'd def do the video thing again: given me stuff to think about [though maybe not in a manner which opens me up to the hoardes of UKC abuse ]

In reply to Robert Durran: I'm not sure I follow, why would someone post a video of a routine gym fall? And why would they need an amusing pretext to do so?

In reply to quiffhanger: would be a shame if the hoardes put you off sharing - I find analysing other climbers technique is a great way to help you thing about your own technique too. I've not used this forum much... is there a way to filter the belay police/trolls - it would be an interesting discussion without them.

In reply to Ciro:

Ok, I accept thast the OP was a genuine quest for advice and I take back my suggestion that it might not have been so.

However, I still think it is a bit odd though, especially from someone who, by their profile, must be a very proficient climber to whom I would have thought it must have therefore been pretty obvious why they fell (sloppy footwork, not keeping foot weighted). And I still think that they can hardly complain about the slagging off of some blatantly crap belaying if they choose to post a video of it.

as a belayer you will pay out slack for the leader to make the clip easily, this coupled with bringing rope through to you mouth , to clip above you head would mean a good fall, add in some stretch and you fall 3 clips, i don't recall the Op asking why did i fall so far, the climber looks experienced enough to understand the reasons for this and accepts them.
to the op thanks for posting this vid,
your strength is getting you up 7s, climb more like a girl and you will be on 8s

In reply to lmarenzi:


To be fair that describes about 99% of climbing wall moves!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Only if the route setting is crap. Try Ratho - they have turned route setting into an art form.

In reply to quiffhanger:

What I like about watching videos like is that you get quite an abstract view of what is going on, as the individual holds are too small to make out, and you can see things like body position, momentum, pace and flow which you don't notice when 95% of your concentration is taken up by boning down on a minging crimp and you are about to come off ...

In reply to Ciro:

Agreed.
So much of the standard ukc forum nonsense spoiling a thread that had rare potential. Many of these 'very experienced' climbers have been doing it for a long time, think they are the s**t, and somehow have missed that they have wasted so many years of experience not even trying to improve their climbing, especially on the psychological side. It seems implied that if you have a profile that says you climbed E5 twenty years ago that people should believe what you say, regardless. But many of us only want to hear opinions that are reasoned and somehow substantiated. Lets try that, shall we?
A soft catch is a good thing. All genuinely experienced climbers would rather take a long soft fall than the short sharp ankle wrenching fall that is the british punter's tradition. 'Take, Take!' cry the masses. Get over it. Take a look at these:
look at 1m30 http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=272

Soft catches everywhere. This is good belaying.
And as for this nonsense from some of you about the OP's character... makes you sound a right tw*t. Totally unsubstantiated and unhelpful. Not a bit true. Far from arrogant, he is merely seeking a bit of friendly advice. Looking at each others technique and suggesting constructive criticism is a fantastic way for us all to improve!

In reply to Robert Durran: I haven't checked the OPs profile out - I presume a list of solid ticks from what others have said, but that can be misleading... it's just numbers. To climb at the very top of the grades you'll need superb gymnastic ability and an efficient technique, but below that one can go a long way to compensate for the other.

Even if the OP is somehow on the wind-up, who cares? He's posted a video of a fairly in-efficient, bouldery style of route climbing, the critique of which will be useful for others - if it's not swamped by "OMG, I CAN'T BELIEVE THE BELAYING!!!???!" comments.

In reply to jacobjlloyd:Good post. I don't take loads of falls but take a few. It seems we are divided on the belaying. I tend to make sure my belayer is close to the wall with no slack in the system when low down. But as height is gained I get less paranoid. The vid shows clearly the OP pulls a load of slack through then pops off unexpectedly, worst case scenario I think. I have taken falls just like that and they have been the biggest. I fully trust my belayer and expect nothing but top notch belaying from him all the time. I have climbed with too many bad belayers to mention so don't just trust anyone, if I am not sure I can't try hard.
Why have we lowered our forum to character judging, can people not help them selves from picking the spots off others?

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I'm glad someone confirmed that too. I really would love to see lmarenzi performing 2/3 of these techniques while climbing the route pictured in the vid.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Yes, indeed. Kudos to Jake.


I'd blame the "Lake Wobegon effect"

In reply to jacobjlloyd:

No one is suggesting that a "soft catch" doesn't have its place; just that such as a small margin for error seems a bit daft. Th OP even suggested that decking out on rope stretch if he had been one bolt lower would have been acceptable belaying.

The fact is that I see dangerous belaying every time I go to the climbing wall - standing miles out with a loop of slack when the climber is low enough that decking out in the event of a fall would be absolutely certain, quite often having first straddled the rope and castrated themselves before tipping over and landing head first. This style of belaying is even becoming increasingly popular trad climbing.

In reply to julianwedd:

I thought that - very 'square' and strenuous, with hips remaining rigidly parallel to the wall the whole time. It reminded me a bit of some of the "bad technique" examples from Neil Gresham's "Masterclass" DVD (part 1) - worth a watch for the OP perhaps.

In reply to deepsoup:
Oh dear, I sound like a right nob in that post - really didn't mean it to seem quite as dismissive of the OP's climbing technique as it came out, soz.

In reply to Hilbert:


Can't argue with that.

In reply to quiffhanger: If you rewind to 1.28secs and repeat 5 or 6 times you will see that you put your arm on your leg and use it as a leaver to pull up more rope. That little bit of extra weight looks like it just popped your foot. Watch the vid very closely.