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After recieving a link to some interesting chat about ethics of climbing I am suddenly reminded of the archaic and backwards thinking of a minority of plebians.. who would rather tie off on a sheep or clump of heather, go home and brag to there mum rather than use a rap station bolt or stake.
Now im NOT saying put an A0 bolt lader up it, or bolting routes im talking belay Station bolts surely a wise investment?!?
Arguments against belay station bolts.. SHOT DOWN:
Detracting from the climb?? NO .. there not on the climb; there protecting the belayer and everyone involved
Unsightly?? NO.... Two bolts is less unsightly than 20 meters of death tat left rotting around a tree!!
Damaging Rock ?? NO
less damaging than overuse of trad gear in a confined belay point!!
Detracting from the Experince?! NO
If you so believe that it does.. just dont clip it... equalise three Nuts.. and crack on...
Im sure given the option (RETROSPECTIVELY) standing at the pearly gates....
lead climber ripped you to a needlessly painful and drawn out death, Your maker giving you an option between a medal and a rerun of the event 10 quid says you would clip the bolt,
have fun, climb safe, and find a bommer anchor.. failing that equlaise that sheep against the sappling of a tree...
Now im NOT saying put an A0 bolt lader up it, or bolting routes im talking belay Station bolts surely a wise investment?!?
Arguments against belay station bolts.. SHOT DOWN:
Detracting from the climb?? NO .. there not on the climb; there protecting the belayer and everyone involved
Unsightly?? NO.... Two bolts is less unsightly than 20 meters of death tat left rotting around a tree!!
Damaging Rock ?? NO
less damaging than overuse of trad gear in a confined belay point!!
Detracting from the Experince?! NO
If you so believe that it does.. just dont clip it... equalise three Nuts.. and crack on...
Im sure given the option (RETROSPECTIVELY) standing at the pearly gates....
lead climber ripped you to a needlessly painful and drawn out death, Your maker giving you an option between a medal and a rerun of the event 10 quid says you would clip the bolt,
have fun, climb safe, and find a bommer anchor.. failing that equlaise that sheep against the sappling of a tree...
In reply to stick it: There's something missing from all that. Adventure.
amazing picture.... that should about do it!!
I agree adventure is key, and intermediate steps of safe belay stations allowing beginers to access and practice skills on easier crags would improve the quality of british climbing on a whole...
I agree adventure is key, and intermediate steps of safe belay stations allowing beginers to access and practice skills on easier crags would improve the quality of british climbing on a whole...
In reply to stick it:
What happens if someone starts throwing snowballs at the sheep, if it moves that could put undue strain on the sapling. Something to consider there!
> > have fun, climb safe, and find a bommer anchor.. failing that equlaise that sheep against the sappling of a tree...
What happens if someone starts throwing snowballs at the sheep, if it moves that could put undue strain on the sapling. Something to consider there!
In reply to stick it:
Done to death topic? Check.
Straw-man arguments? Check.
Weak reasoning? Check.
Erratic spelling? Check.
Comedy punctuation? Check.
Troll? Check!
Done to death topic? Check.
Straw-man arguments? Check.
Weak reasoning? Check.
Erratic spelling? Check.
Comedy punctuation? Check.
Troll? Check!
In reply to jkarran:
Also no profile ... stick it, stick it!
> (In reply to stick it)
>
> Done to death topic? Check.
> Straw-man arguments? Check.
> Weak reasoning? Check.
> Erratic spelling? Check.
> Comedy punctuation? Check.
>
> Troll? Check!
>
> Done to death topic? Check.
> Straw-man arguments? Check.
> Weak reasoning? Check.
> Erratic spelling? Check.
> Comedy punctuation? Check.
>
> Troll? Check!
Also no profile ... stick it, stick it!
In reply to stick it:
Bolt belays will just encourage people to top rope routes. It happens on the odd route that has such a permanent feature at the top. Supercrack at Wilton for example.
Id rather tie off a sheep than have to endure the sight of endless shithouses top roping stuff at millstone or other places that could probably benefit from the odd bolt belay.
So I reckon leave them be, all the routes will get battered to death. Although they will end up that way in the long run I suppose.
Bolt belays will just encourage people to top rope routes. It happens on the odd route that has such a permanent feature at the top. Supercrack at Wilton for example.
Id rather tie off a sheep than have to endure the sight of endless shithouses top roping stuff at millstone or other places that could probably benefit from the odd bolt belay.
So I reckon leave them be, all the routes will get battered to death. Although they will end up that way in the long run I suppose.
Didn't realise the topic was over discussed! Don't normally frequent the forum, I agree that no one wants routes getting smashed apart and lapped, but surely bolting in the UK in remote location crags should be welcomed and encouraged!? (less punctuation for those who prefer the traditional approach to grammar and alliteration aswell as there outdated climbing ethics)
In reply to stick it:
Why should it be welcomed and encouraged? Some of the most fun I've had is hearing "Safe. On belay. Climb when ready...don't fall off though; I don't think the belay will hold us".
Good honest fun. There's always sport climbing if you're not keen.
Why should it be welcomed and encouraged? Some of the most fun I've had is hearing "Safe. On belay. Climb when ready...don't fall off though; I don't think the belay will hold us".
Good honest fun. There's always sport climbing if you're not keen.
In reply to stick it:
Just out of interest, is their any recorded incident(s) of accidents occurring due to trad anchors ripping at any of these places often mooted as good candidates for bolted belays - Castell Helen etc? Genuine question.
Just out of interest, is their any recorded incident(s) of accidents occurring due to trad anchors ripping at any of these places often mooted as good candidates for bolted belays - Castell Helen etc? Genuine question.
In reply to stick it:
>
>..... Don't normally frequent the forum,....>
>
So you haven't met the UKC grammar police then?
>
>(less punctuation for those who prefer the traditional approach to grammar and alliteration aswell as there outdated climbing ethics)>
>
Less punctuation but still incorrect spelling.
Now normally we'd let this sort of thing pass but with an opening post like yours which was, well let's say a tad brusque, you tend to get people's backs up a bit. A more diplomatic approach usually yields better results.
Don't expect a sympathetic hearing.
>
>..... Don't normally frequent the forum,....>
>
So you haven't met the UKC grammar police then?
>
>(less punctuation for those who prefer the traditional approach to grammar and alliteration aswell as there outdated climbing ethics)>
>
Less punctuation but still incorrect spelling.
Now normally we'd let this sort of thing pass but with an opening post like yours which was, well let's say a tad brusque, you tend to get people's backs up a bit. A more diplomatic approach usually yields better results.
Don't expect a sympathetic hearing.
In reply to snoop6060:
That a pretty craggist point of view? There's nothing to suggest the OP isn't talking about mountain routes, in which case, watching someone top rope a 200 Meter route could finally catapult climbing into the realms of a spectator sport...
> (In reply to stick it)
>
> Bolt belays will just encourage people to top rope routes. It happens on the odd route that has such a permanent feature at the top. Supercrack at Wilton for example.
>
> Bolt belays will just encourage people to top rope routes. It happens on the odd route that has such a permanent feature at the top. Supercrack at Wilton for example.
That a pretty craggist point of view? There's nothing to suggest the OP isn't talking about mountain routes, in which case, watching someone top rope a 200 Meter route could finally catapult climbing into the realms of a spectator sport...
In reply to snoop6060:
I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
Looking at the kids in my daughter's class at school, I'm pretty sure all of them have multiple experiences of indoor climbing at birthday parties and school organised activities. About 3 out of 25 are regular indoor climbers. None climb outdoors. Scale that up nationally and there are probably a few million kids who have experience climbing indoors but will never try outdoors because the 'trad' ethic says you don't get to climb outdoors unless you accept about 20x the risk of indoor climbing (Schoeffl et al "Evaluation of the Injury and Fatality Risk in Rock and Ice Climbing" Indoor climbing 0.027 injuries/1000 hours, Trad Climbing 0.56 injuries/1000 hours).
> (In reply to stick it)
>
> Id rather tie off a sheep than have to endure the sight of endless shithouses top roping stuff at millstone or other places that could probably benefit from the odd bolt belay.
>
>
> Id rather tie off a sheep than have to endure the sight of endless shithouses top roping stuff at millstone or other places that could probably benefit from the odd bolt belay.
>
I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
Looking at the kids in my daughter's class at school, I'm pretty sure all of them have multiple experiences of indoor climbing at birthday parties and school organised activities. About 3 out of 25 are regular indoor climbers. None climb outdoors. Scale that up nationally and there are probably a few million kids who have experience climbing indoors but will never try outdoors because the 'trad' ethic says you don't get to climb outdoors unless you accept about 20x the risk of indoor climbing (Schoeffl et al "Evaluation of the Injury and Fatality Risk in Rock and Ice Climbing" Indoor climbing 0.027 injuries/1000 hours, Trad Climbing 0.56 injuries/1000 hours).
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
They're really interesting figures. Out of interest, do you happen to know the ones for winter, sport, free soloing and alpine? I'd be interested to see how they compared.
They're really interesting figures. Out of interest, do you happen to know the ones for winter, sport, free soloing and alpine? I'd be interested to see how they compared.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Wow, I never realized I was elite before! Dave MacWho? Get in!
While you're here, have you considered applying this approach to other sports and (for instance) trying to open up marathon running to people beyond the elite who are willing to get a bit tired?
> (In reply to snoop6060)
> [...]
>
> I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
> [...]
>
> I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
Wow, I never realized I was elite before! Dave MacWho? Get in!
While you're here, have you considered applying this approach to other sports and (for instance) trying to open up marathon running to people beyond the elite who are willing to get a bit tired?
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
It's not a case of climbing being restricted to the 'elite' who are willing to 'lead climb off a dodgy anchor'. Whether you like it or not, rock climbing in the UK has a strong history, and a traditional approach based on that. You can't go round bolting classic routes to reduce them to the lowest common denominator. Everywhere else in the world, people try to climb established routes in a style equal to or better than the original ascent. Why is it expected that in the UK, we should do exactly the opposite?
If you want 'safe' climbing on bolts and/or plastic holds, stay indoors or go to one of the several excellent sport crags in the country. No one is forcing you to climb trad routes, and no one will be bringing the routes down to your level with bolts if you don't have the balls to get on the sharp end. You're not 'entitled' to the experience of climbing classic routes in great settings if you're not willing to climb them as they currently are.
It's not a case of climbing being restricted to the 'elite' who are willing to 'lead climb off a dodgy anchor'. Whether you like it or not, rock climbing in the UK has a strong history, and a traditional approach based on that. You can't go round bolting classic routes to reduce them to the lowest common denominator. Everywhere else in the world, people try to climb established routes in a style equal to or better than the original ascent. Why is it expected that in the UK, we should do exactly the opposite?
If you want 'safe' climbing on bolts and/or plastic holds, stay indoors or go to one of the several excellent sport crags in the country. No one is forcing you to climb trad routes, and no one will be bringing the routes down to your level with bolts if you don't have the balls to get on the sharp end. You're not 'entitled' to the experience of climbing classic routes in great settings if you're not willing to climb them as they currently are.
In reply to stick it:
I know some venues, Hawkcraig for instance, where there are really dodgy trees at the top of the route, which people use a lot to belay off. They're killing the trees-- that's why they're dodgy-- and they're making a mess.
This seems to me a clear case where a couple of discreet bolts in a big solid block would serve everyone's interests much better than what's going on at present.
Horses for courses. A blanket rule saying "Belay bolts nowhere" is just as silly as a blanket rule saying "Belay bolts everywhere".
I know some venues, Hawkcraig for instance, where there are really dodgy trees at the top of the route, which people use a lot to belay off. They're killing the trees-- that's why they're dodgy-- and they're making a mess.
This seems to me a clear case where a couple of discreet bolts in a big solid block would serve everyone's interests much better than what's going on at present.
Horses for courses. A blanket rule saying "Belay bolts nowhere" is just as silly as a blanket rule saying "Belay bolts everywhere".
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Why on earth should we try to 'widen and broaden participation' to those who, essentially, aren't willing to take the risks which form one of the things which make trad climbing so rewarding? If they don't like it, then fair enough, but don't spoil it for those who already enjoy it for what it is.
> (In reply to snoop6060)
> [...]
>
> I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
>
> [...]
>
> I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Unlike pretty much every other sport which tries to widen and broaden participation Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
>
Why on earth should we try to 'widen and broaden participation' to those who, essentially, aren't willing to take the risks which form one of the things which make trad climbing so rewarding? If they don't like it, then fair enough, but don't spoil it for those who already enjoy it for what it is.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I've run marathons and 10Ks on the exact same pavements. So why can't folk top rope and trad climb on the exact same rock?
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> While you're here, have you considered applying this approach to other sports and (for instance) trying to open up marathon running to people beyond the elite who are willing to get a bit tired?
I've run marathons and 10Ks on the exact same pavements. So why can't folk top rope and trad climb on the exact same rock?
In reply to Tim Chappell:
whoa there, chap. That sounds all too reasonable and logical to me. That kind of practical evaluation of risk/environment of an individual situation (a trait perhaps inherent to climbing?) just wont fly. If he wanted shades of grey he wouldn't have started this thread.
whoa there, chap. That sounds all too reasonable and logical to me. That kind of practical evaluation of risk/environment of an individual situation (a trait perhaps inherent to climbing?) just wont fly. If he wanted shades of grey he wouldn't have started this thread.
In reply to Kemics:
Sorry. Sorry. How unUKCish of me. I do apologise.
Unlike almost everyone else round here (it seems), I've been taking my medication
Sorry. Sorry. How unUKCish of me. I do apologise.
Unlike almost everyone else round here (it seems), I've been taking my medication
In reply to Tim Chappell:
If nothing else, I haven't noticed anyone rushing to remove the stakes from Swanage, Pembroke, Cornwall etc...
> (In reply to stick it)
> Horses for courses. A blanket rule saying "Belay bolts nowhere" is just as silly as a blanket rule saying "Belay bolts everywhere".
If nothing else, I haven't noticed anyone rushing to remove the stakes from Swanage, Pembroke, Cornwall etc...
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Last time I checked, they did...
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I've run marathons and 10Ks on the exact same pavements. So why can't folk top rope and trad climb on the exact same rock?
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I've run marathons and 10Ks on the exact same pavements. So why can't folk top rope and trad climb on the exact same rock?
Last time I checked, they did...
In reply to Dave 88:
If you Google 'Volker Schoffl' (or 'Schoeffl' since he's got an umlaut on the 'o') you'll see a few papers on risk in climbing. The paper I cited also has figures for Ice Climbing 4.07 injuries/1000 hours and 'Trad climbing 20 years ago' at 37.5 injuries/1000 hours. It doesn't have figures for Alpine specifically or free soloing. The most dangerous sport by a long way is 'Amateur Competition Rugby' at 283 injuries per 1000 hours.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
> They're really interesting figures. Out of interest, do you happen to know the ones for winter, sport, free soloing and alpine? I'd be interested to see how they compared.
>
> They're really interesting figures. Out of interest, do you happen to know the ones for winter, sport, free soloing and alpine? I'd be interested to see how they compared.
If you Google 'Volker Schoffl' (or 'Schoeffl' since he's got an umlaut on the 'o') you'll see a few papers on risk in climbing. The paper I cited also has figures for Ice Climbing 4.07 injuries/1000 hours and 'Trad climbing 20 years ago' at 37.5 injuries/1000 hours. It doesn't have figures for Alpine specifically or free soloing. The most dangerous sport by a long way is 'Amateur Competition Rugby' at 283 injuries per 1000 hours.
In reply to Byronius Maximus:
It's not even a matter of being unwilling to take risks; it's being unwilling to learn how to climb and belay safely and competently. I'm struggling to recall an unsafe belay on a British rock climb in thirty years of climbing. Tom and his like, who can't be bothered to learn how to climb, should just stay indoors.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> Why on earth should we try to 'widen and broaden participation' to those who, essentially, aren't willing to take the risks which form one of the things which make trad climbing so rewarding?
It's not even a matter of being unwilling to take risks; it's being unwilling to learn how to climb and belay safely and competently. I'm struggling to recall an unsafe belay on a British rock climb in thirty years of climbing. Tom and his like, who can't be bothered to learn how to climb, should just stay indoors.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Cheers I'll have a look at those, love a good stat. Amateur competition rugby more dangerous than climbing? Best stick those chaps in America football gear lest they graze a knee!
Cheers I'll have a look at those, love a good stat. Amateur competition rugby more dangerous than climbing? Best stick those chaps in America football gear lest they graze a knee!
In reply to Robert Durran:
Sheesh. No offence, Robert, but that is so unnecessary. What is it about UKC that brings out this kind of put down?
> Tom and his like, who can't be bothered to learn how to climb, should just stay indoors.
Sheesh. No offence, Robert, but that is so unnecessary. What is it about UKC that brings out this kind of put down?
In reply to Tim Chappell:
If it is not necessary then that can only be because it is stating the obvious; if you can't be bothered to learn how to climb outdoors, then don't climb outdoors.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Sheesh. No offence, Robert, but that is so unnecessary.
> Sheesh. No offence, Robert, but that is so unnecessary.
If it is not necessary then that can only be because it is stating the obvious; if you can't be bothered to learn how to climb outdoors, then don't climb outdoors.
> What is it about UKC that brings out this kind of put down?
Ignorance such as that displayed by Tom and the OP.In reply to Robert Durran:
That's exactly what happens. There are probably several hundred thousand people in the UK that top-rope indoors but never go outdoors. A few bolted anchors at the top of reasonable routes at venues near cities could get a lot more people climbing outside.
I'd accept the argument that at the top of the sport the 'best quality' routes should be ascended in at least as good a style as the first ascender. If someone cuts bolts on the Compressor Route then fair enough. But what's the big deal about sticking a couple of bolts at the top of a nondescript mid-grade route in a disused quarry near a city so 'indoor' folk can top rope it and trad climbers can make a safe belay easily and quickly. A couple of bolts at the top doesn't stop a route being climbed 'trad'.
> (In reply to Byronius Maximus)
> Tom and his like, who can't be bothered to learn how to climb, should just stay indoors.
> Tom and his like, who can't be bothered to learn how to climb, should just stay indoors.
That's exactly what happens. There are probably several hundred thousand people in the UK that top-rope indoors but never go outdoors. A few bolted anchors at the top of reasonable routes at venues near cities could get a lot more people climbing outside.
I'd accept the argument that at the top of the sport the 'best quality' routes should be ascended in at least as good a style as the first ascender. If someone cuts bolts on the Compressor Route then fair enough. But what's the big deal about sticking a couple of bolts at the top of a nondescript mid-grade route in a disused quarry near a city so 'indoor' folk can top rope it and trad climbers can make a safe belay easily and quickly. A couple of bolts at the top doesn't stop a route being climbed 'trad'.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Yeah but why not built a top anchor out of gear and use that? Or for leading, simply pick one of the many many routes with solid belays or ones described as "belay from trees". If trad routes with bolted belays are supposed to be the next step from indoors, what level of proficiency do you have to reach on those routes before you can move onto ones where you have to make your own belay? Surely of you weren't confident placing gear to make a belay, bolts won't make a difference if you fall before you get to them and all your runners rip out.
Yeah but why not built a top anchor out of gear and use that? Or for leading, simply pick one of the many many routes with solid belays or ones described as "belay from trees". If trad routes with bolted belays are supposed to be the next step from indoors, what level of proficiency do you have to reach on those routes before you can move onto ones where you have to make your own belay? Surely of you weren't confident placing gear to make a belay, bolts won't make a difference if you fall before you get to them and all your runners rip out.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Also do you really want "several hundred thousand" extra people out on the crags? I don't.
Also do you really want "several hundred thousand" extra people out on the crags? I don't.
In reply to jkarran:
So true.
If trees are being damaged by ropes running around them then I'm in favour of permanent plastic-sheathed steel cabling to use instead. I don't think it takes away from the adventure aspect too much because we're all carrying slings and ropes anyway and it uses naturally available protection. It's not perfect but the pros outweigh the cons in my mind. Stakes similarly -- clifftops would get wrecked if we all brought our own and it's just about natural.
Apart from that I'm very anti fixed gear. If you're too tight, lazy or stupid to do it yourself then the sport isn't for you.
I see the age old "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument was trotted out. Brilliant.
> Done to death topic? Check.
So true.
If trees are being damaged by ropes running around them then I'm in favour of permanent plastic-sheathed steel cabling to use instead. I don't think it takes away from the adventure aspect too much because we're all carrying slings and ropes anyway and it uses naturally available protection. It's not perfect but the pros outweigh the cons in my mind. Stakes similarly -- clifftops would get wrecked if we all brought our own and it's just about natural.
Apart from that I'm very anti fixed gear. If you're too tight, lazy or stupid to do it yourself then the sport isn't for you.
I see the age old "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument was trotted out. Brilliant.
In reply to stick it:
I would hate to see bolts go in on The Old man of Hoy, the tat round the thread at the end of pitch two is a welcome link with the past, though I agree it needs to be curtailed/replaced occaisionaly
> Didn't realise the topic was over discussed! Don't normally frequent the forum, I agree that no one wants routes getting smashed apart and lapped, but surely bolting in the UK in remote location crags should be welcomed and encouraged!? (less punctuation for those who prefer the traditional approach to grammar and alliteration aswell as there outdated climbing ethics)
I would hate to see bolts go in on The Old man of Hoy, the tat round the thread at the end of pitch two is a welcome link with the past, though I agree it needs to be curtailed/replaced occaisionaly
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
If that's what they choose, then it's fine by me.
Possibly true. So what? At worst it could be the thin end of the wedge.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> That's exactly what happens. There are probably several hundred thousand people in the UK that top-rope indoors but never go outdoors.
> That's exactly what happens. There are probably several hundred thousand people in the UK that top-rope indoors but never go outdoors.
If that's what they choose, then it's fine by me.
> A few bolted anchors at the top of reasonable routes at venues near cities could get a lot more people climbing outside.
Possibly true. So what? At worst it could be the thin end of the wedge.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Erm... They can and they do.
In all my years climbing I can still count on one hand the number of venues where crag top bolts are actually necessary for one reason or another. Invariably where they are genuinely necessary they're already in situ and quietly accepted.
If you think British trad climbing is all about taking risks above dodgy belays I can only suggest you get some instruction in then experience of it. It's nothing of the sort unless you're one of a very small minority that choose to make it so.
If you can't set up a belay safely then you (one) should bloody well learn, it's a skill, one that's frankly pretty easy to master.
To extend your running analogy: You wouldn't go running without learning to tie your laces would you? Nor would you campaign for 'safer' velcro shoes because some people can't tie laces.
jk
> I've run marathons and 10Ks on the exact same pavements. So why can't folk top rope and trad climb on the exact same rock?
Erm... They can and they do.
In all my years climbing I can still count on one hand the number of venues where crag top bolts are actually necessary for one reason or another. Invariably where they are genuinely necessary they're already in situ and quietly accepted.
If you think British trad climbing is all about taking risks above dodgy belays I can only suggest you get some instruction in then experience of it. It's nothing of the sort unless you're one of a very small minority that choose to make it so.
If you can't set up a belay safely then you (one) should bloody well learn, it's a skill, one that's frankly pretty easy to master.
To extend your running analogy: You wouldn't go running without learning to tie your laces would you? Nor would you campaign for 'safer' velcro shoes because some people can't tie laces.
jk
In reply to stick it: I think minimum 3 sheep would be appropriate, and a properly trained (spa at least) collie in the middle of them to ensure that they all pull in different directions. Possibly a pit bull could be employed to maul anyone throwing snowballs within a 1 mile radius.
In reply to marsbar:
Wouldn't three collies and a sheep be more appropriate?
Also, building an anchor isn't exactly rocket surgery
> I think minimum 3 sheep would be appropriate, and a properly trained (spa at least) collie in the middle of them to ensure that they all pull in different directions. Possibly a pit bull could be employed to maul anyone throwing snowballs within a 1 mile radius.
Wouldn't three collies and a sheep be more appropriate?
Also, building an anchor isn't exactly rocket surgery
In reply to stick it:
Most places that are moderately popular with poor belay potential do have stakes, don't they ? I'd rather use those than a bolt placed in a loose block at the top of the Boulder Ruckle any day !
Most places that are moderately popular with poor belay potential do have stakes, don't they ? I'd rather use those than a bolt placed in a loose block at the top of the Boulder Ruckle any day !
In reply to GrahamD: Speaking of Swanage, how long has the cemented-in pipe above Guillemot been there?
In reply to Hannes: that could work, but if the sheep wandered off it would all pull in the wrong direction.
In reply to stick it:
Thought it worth throwing this into the mix, saying all you need is a little help from your friends! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=193409
Thought it worth throwing this into the mix, saying all you need is a little help from your friends! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=193409
In reply to Dafydd Llywelyn: Well the redundancy by having two people is good but I think they should have separate slings leading to the crab in case one of them is pulled out
In reply to Michael Hood:
That's the trouble with friends, one of them could get pulled.
Safer with diversity as well as redundancy and use one friend and one lamb.
> (In reply to Dafydd Llywelyn) Well the redundancy by having two people is good but I think they should have separate slings leading to the crab in case one of them is pulled out
That's the trouble with friends, one of them could get pulled.
Safer with diversity as well as redundancy and use one friend and one lamb.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Since the picture is Roaches Skyline, I'd prefer to use a wallaby rather than a lamb, spring loaded belay will lower the impact force.
Unfortunately, I think they're no longer available.
Unfortunately, I think they're no longer available.
In reply to Dave 88:
Absolutely! A couple of seasons playing rugby gave me more injuries than I have had in a (long) lifetime of climbing. Perhaps I was too slow to get out of the way of the forwards (aka a hippo's) who were about to jump on me
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> Amateur competition rugby more dangerous than climbing?
> Amateur competition rugby more dangerous than climbing?
Absolutely! A couple of seasons playing rugby gave me more injuries than I have had in a (long) lifetime of climbing. Perhaps I was too slow to get out of the way of the forwards (aka a hippo's) who were about to jump on me
There are of many uses for a sheep....
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I'm sure (assuming they're not yet 17) lots of them have been on the dodgems at the fairground too, but none drive on the roads. Does that make driving a passtime for the elite who have taken the time to learn how to safely handle a motor car? Should we restrict all roads and vehicles to 5mph so as to safely allow greater youth participation in driving?
(Yes, there are loads of differences between this and what you said, but not significant ones.)
PS there is plenty of good trad with safe anchors and belays out there, it's all the trad I'll climb in fact
> I think that just about sums up the problem with the British Trad ethic. Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors. Looking at the kids in my daughter's class at school, I'm pretty sure all of them have multiple experiences of indoor climbing at birthday parties and school organised activities. None climb outdoors.
I'm sure (assuming they're not yet 17) lots of them have been on the dodgems at the fairground too, but none drive on the roads. Does that make driving a passtime for the elite who have taken the time to learn how to safely handle a motor car? Should we restrict all roads and vehicles to 5mph so as to safely allow greater youth participation in driving?
(Yes, there are loads of differences between this and what you said, but not significant ones.)
PS there is plenty of good trad with safe anchors and belays out there, it's all the trad I'll climb in fact
In reply to stick it:
If there isn't a decent belay at the top and you therefore need to add something semi-permenant and damaging to the rock (bolts), should you even be doing the route anyway?
I mean the idea that is detracts from the experience is that a lot of climber enjoy the feeling of self sufficency as part of thier climbing. It's nice to look up are a pitch you are about to second and see it bristling with gear, only to look down on it after to seconded it and cleaned it, seeing it returned to a more natural state. Adding bolts to a climb does, either as a belay or as part of the protection, detract from the experience for a lot of people.
As far as damaging the rock is concerned I think that (and this is just a single opinion) but creating some wear on a nut placement from multiply use is a little different to actually drilling into the rock and placing a bolt. They are fundamentally different forms of protection because placing a nut (etc) at least takes advenatage of what is already there, rather creating and scarring the rock indefinatly?
As far as your "unsightly death tat" is concerned. Surely it's up to climbers, and expecially the more experienced climbers, to remove and replace tat as and when they find it, in a effort to keep it clean and tidy.
I think that you have a very narrow minded viewpoint which seems to have elevated rock climbing to something that it isn't. Just because you can climb, it doesn't mean you should, or have to for that matter.
If there isn't a decent belay at the top and you therefore need to add something semi-permenant and damaging to the rock (bolts), should you even be doing the route anyway?
I mean the idea that is detracts from the experience is that a lot of climber enjoy the feeling of self sufficency as part of thier climbing. It's nice to look up are a pitch you are about to second and see it bristling with gear, only to look down on it after to seconded it and cleaned it, seeing it returned to a more natural state. Adding bolts to a climb does, either as a belay or as part of the protection, detract from the experience for a lot of people.
As far as damaging the rock is concerned I think that (and this is just a single opinion) but creating some wear on a nut placement from multiply use is a little different to actually drilling into the rock and placing a bolt. They are fundamentally different forms of protection because placing a nut (etc) at least takes advenatage of what is already there, rather creating and scarring the rock indefinatly?
As far as your "unsightly death tat" is concerned. Surely it's up to climbers, and expecially the more experienced climbers, to remove and replace tat as and when they find it, in a effort to keep it clean and tidy.
I think that you have a very narrow minded viewpoint which seems to have elevated rock climbing to something that it isn't. Just because you can climb, it doesn't mean you should, or have to for that matter.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Friends have a tendency to walk
> (In reply to Michael Hood)
> [...]
>
> That's the trouble with friends, one of them could get pulled.
>
> Safer with diversity as well as redundancy and use one friend and one lamb.
> [...]
>
> That's the trouble with friends, one of them could get pulled.
>
> Safer with diversity as well as redundancy and use one friend and one lamb.
Friends have a tendency to walk
In reply to Stone Muppet:
The more accurate analogy would be a decree that said you can't use the roads unless you ride a motorcycle with a large toolbox strapped to your belt. Motorcycles are about 20 x less safe than cars or walking and trad climbing is about 20 x less safe than indoor top roping.
I don't think putting in some hardware - bolts or stakes or whatever - in an old quarry near a city to make the outdoor climbing safer and more accessible to indoor climbers who just want to throw down a top rope off an obviously secure anchor and get climbing is a bad thing. It shouldn't provoke the same kind of emotions as installing hardware somewhere natural and pristine.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> [...]
>
> I'm sure (assuming they're not yet 17) lots of them have been on the dodgems at the fairground too, but none drive on the roads. Does that make driving a passtime for the elite who have taken the time to learn how to safely handle a motor car? Should we restrict all roads and vehicles to 5mph so as to safely allow greater youth participation in driving?
>
> [...]
>
> I'm sure (assuming they're not yet 17) lots of them have been on the dodgems at the fairground too, but none drive on the roads. Does that make driving a passtime for the elite who have taken the time to learn how to safely handle a motor car? Should we restrict all roads and vehicles to 5mph so as to safely allow greater youth participation in driving?
>
The more accurate analogy would be a decree that said you can't use the roads unless you ride a motorcycle with a large toolbox strapped to your belt. Motorcycles are about 20 x less safe than cars or walking and trad climbing is about 20 x less safe than indoor top roping.
I don't think putting in some hardware - bolts or stakes or whatever - in an old quarry near a city to make the outdoor climbing safer and more accessible to indoor climbers who just want to throw down a top rope off an obviously secure anchor and get climbing is a bad thing. It shouldn't provoke the same kind of emotions as installing hardware somewhere natural and pristine.
In reply to stick it: I would rather not see any bolts at the top of any trad routes, if thete was, they wouldn't be trad routes any more, stick to climbing the stairs stick it.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
You are arguing for bolts.
So therefore, presumably, you have made the effort to find out a bit about this topic?
Why do you think that British climbing has an anti bolt ethic? Can you think of any reasons why this should be?
There are differet levels of trad climbing, some of which are far, far safer than others. I haven't hurt myself once in 25 years of climbing. Do you think that is just luck?
You are arguing for bolts.
So therefore, presumably, you have made the effort to find out a bit about this topic?
Why do you think that British climbing has an anti bolt ethic? Can you think of any reasons why this should be?
There are differet levels of trad climbing, some of which are far, far safer than others. I haven't hurt myself once in 25 years of climbing. Do you think that is just luck?
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Out of interest, how many of these "20 times as many accidents" were actually due to natural belay anchors failing when seconding / top roping? I'd have thought that almost all of them would be lead falls plus maybe a few 'tied into the gear loops' type cockups.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: In that case we are agreement - I do think bolts have a place outdoors. Your original post came across as arguing for the rights of a horde of indoor climbers to march out and bolt Pembroke, Snowdonia and all the gritstone edges just because they would otherwise be excluded from climbing them. A different proposition entirely!
As others have said those numbers don't represent all trad climbing. You can choose your own level of risk to a large extent (...mine is pretty low!).
The analogy I was trying to communicate was anything that stops a number of people enjoying an activity just because other people aren't capable of, or sufficiently motivated to, enjoy it also.
As others have said those numbers don't represent all trad climbing. You can choose your own level of risk to a large extent (...mine is pretty low!).
The analogy I was trying to communicate was anything that stops a number of people enjoying an activity just because other people aren't capable of, or sufficiently motivated to, enjoy it also.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Bolts do not make climbing safer. People make climbing safer.
The majority of serious climbing accidents I would contend are due to people errors irrespective of whether there are bolts there or not. I will give you an example - I have only ever witnessed two abseiling accidents despite having had to bseil from single pegs in the Dolomites or threaded tat in the Verdon, abseils in the Alps, long abseils in winter in gloves etc. Both these accidents were at bolted crags in France and Spain because the people involved were either to complacent or inadeqately trained/experienced. Either way they were in hospital despite the bolts.
Bolts do not make climbing safer. People make climbing safer.
The majority of serious climbing accidents I would contend are due to people errors irrespective of whether there are bolts there or not. I will give you an example - I have only ever witnessed two abseiling accidents despite having had to bseil from single pegs in the Dolomites or threaded tat in the Verdon, abseils in the Alps, long abseils in winter in gloves etc. Both these accidents were at bolted crags in France and Spain because the people involved were either to complacent or inadeqately trained/experienced. Either way they were in hospital despite the bolts.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I don't know - the paper I based the comment on only has overall statistics for accidents/1000 hours participation.
It is interesting that it has 'Trad climbing 20 years ago' at 37.5 but 'Trad Climbing and Mountaineering' at 0.56. Some of this might be due to the 37.5 number coming from data from Yosemite - but it still suggests trad climbing is much safer than it used to be, maybe due to better equipment.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh) Out of interest, how many of these "20 times as many accidents" were actually due to natural belay anchors failing when seconding / top roping? I'd have thought that almost all of them would be lead falls plus maybe a few 'tied into the gear loops' type cockups.
I don't know - the paper I based the comment on only has overall statistics for accidents/1000 hours participation.
It is interesting that it has 'Trad climbing 20 years ago' at 37.5 but 'Trad Climbing and Mountaineering' at 0.56. Some of this might be due to the 37.5 number coming from data from Yosemite - but it still suggests trad climbing is much safer than it used to be, maybe due to better equipment.
In reply to GrahamD:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer. Not crashing makes cars safer.
Crash pads don't make bouldering safer. Landing properly makes bouldering safer.
etc......
There are two factors - people and equipment. Obviously people should be competent and careful but that's no reason for not making the equipment as safe as possible too.
You may not have personally seen someone fall from a bad abseil anchor but it happens.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
> Bolts do not make climbing safer. People make climbing safer.
>
>
> Bolts do not make climbing safer. People make climbing safer.
>
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer. Not crashing makes cars safer.
Crash pads don't make bouldering safer. Landing properly makes bouldering safer.
etc......
There are two factors - people and equipment. Obviously people should be competent and careful but that's no reason for not making the equipment as safe as possible too.
You may not have personally seen someone fall from a bad abseil anchor but it happens.
In reply to stick it:
Never used a sheep as an anchor. But I do fondly recall the grass tussocks tied off with slings at Screda Point; sitting in the 'crevasse' as a human anchor at Compass Point; and where was that rabbit hole that you could get a thread through...?
Personally I think that the BMC should develop a policy of strategic tree planting.
Never used a sheep as an anchor. But I do fondly recall the grass tussocks tied off with slings at Screda Point; sitting in the 'crevasse' as a human anchor at Compass Point; and where was that rabbit hole that you could get a thread through...?
Personally I think that the BMC should develop a policy of strategic tree planting.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Then it's irrelevant. You're talking about the "need" for bolted toprope anchors because using natural anchors is unreasonably dangerous, but you haven't provided any evidence that this is, in general, the case.
It's worth pointing out again, by the way, that there are already artificial anchors in place at a lot of venues where natural protection would be particularly dodgy - sea cliffs, for instance (no rocks at the top), or southern sandstone (too soft to take gear). The argument is against banging them in all over the place just to save people the bother of learning to set up an anchor when good natural protection is available.
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> I don't know - the paper I based the comment on only has overall statistics for accidents/1000 hours participation.
> [...]
>
> I don't know - the paper I based the comment on only has overall statistics for accidents/1000 hours participation.
Then it's irrelevant. You're talking about the "need" for bolted toprope anchors because using natural anchors is unreasonably dangerous, but you haven't provided any evidence that this is, in general, the case.
It's worth pointing out again, by the way, that there are already artificial anchors in place at a lot of venues where natural protection would be particularly dodgy - sea cliffs, for instance (no rocks at the top), or southern sandstone (too soft to take gear). The argument is against banging them in all over the place just to save people the bother of learning to set up an anchor when good natural protection is available.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Care to give a couple of (UK) examples?
In reply to tlm:
My first thought is yes, the maths says that can be explained by luck (or random chance).
Assume 20 weeks a year of trad climbing and 4 hours per outing (80 hours/year) times 25 years that's 2,000 hours. The paper says the injury rate for trad climbing is 0.56 injuries/1000 hours. Finding a trad climber who has not had an accident in 25 years climbing is not surprising. Finding someone who had been playing amateur competition rugby for 25 years without an accident would be.
> There are differet levels of trad climbing, some of which are far, far safer than others. I haven't hurt myself once in 25 years of climbing. Do you think that is just luck?
My first thought is yes, the maths says that can be explained by luck (or random chance).
Assume 20 weeks a year of trad climbing and 4 hours per outing (80 hours/year) times 25 years that's 2,000 hours. The paper says the injury rate for trad climbing is 0.56 injuries/1000 hours. Finding a trad climber who has not had an accident in 25 years climbing is not surprising. Finding someone who had been playing amateur competition rugby for 25 years without an accident would be.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
How can you shoot down trad climbing when your own ignorance is displayed in your posts? Outdoor climbing is not a natural progression of indoor climbing in my opinion. They are two seperate disiplines in parallel which sometimes cross over. There is no god given right for indoor climbers to then turn around and say they want the rest of Britain stripped down to their level.
Trad has been around a lot longer than those crappy bits of plastic which give a a few hours of gym exercise.
Playing Tiger Woods on your playstation does not make you a Golfer and you can't turn around to golfers and demand that they install some sort of system for playing golf using a joystick rather than a golfclub so "thousand of indoor golfers can enjoy playing outdoors"
There is no elitism. Anyone can join in any time they want. You buy some equipment, learn some skills and climb.
> Trad Climbing is about limiting it and keeping the experience of climbing outdoors on interesting routes for the elite who are willing to lead climb off dodgy anchors.
>
>
How can you shoot down trad climbing when your own ignorance is displayed in your posts? Outdoor climbing is not a natural progression of indoor climbing in my opinion. They are two seperate disiplines in parallel which sometimes cross over. There is no god given right for indoor climbers to then turn around and say they want the rest of Britain stripped down to their level.
Trad has been around a lot longer than those crappy bits of plastic which give a a few hours of gym exercise.
Playing Tiger Woods on your playstation does not make you a Golfer and you can't turn around to golfers and demand that they install some sort of system for playing golf using a joystick rather than a golfclub so "thousand of indoor golfers can enjoy playing outdoors"
There is no elitism. Anyone can join in any time they want. You buy some equipment, learn some skills and climb.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Ahha! That is where you are wrong. Not falling off makes bouldering safer
> (In reply to GrahamD)
> Crash pads don't make bouldering safer. Landing properly makes bouldering safer.
> Crash pads don't make bouldering safer. Landing properly makes bouldering safer.
Ahha! That is where you are wrong. Not falling off makes bouldering safer
In reply to Milesy:
The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> [...]
> There is no god given right for indoor climbers to then turn around and say they want the rest of Britain stripped down to their level.
> [...]
> There is no god given right for indoor climbers to then turn around and say they want the rest of Britain stripped down to their level.
> Playing Tiger Woods on your playstation does not make you a Golfer and you can't turn around to golfers and demand that they install some sort of system for playing golf using a joystick rather than a golfclub so "thousand of indoor golfers can enjoy playing outdoors"
>
> There is no elitism. Anyone can join in any time they want. You buy some equipment, learn some skills and climb.
>
> There is no elitism. Anyone can join in any time they want. You buy some equipment, learn some skills and climb.
The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
That's complete cobblers. Golfers play to an agreed set of rules, regardless of who owns the course. Some courses have specific rules - usually relating to to out-of-bounds areas and other things related to local geographical or topographical idiosyncrasies.
Similarly, climbers generally climb with an agreed set of ethics in mind. Where there are specific local issues to be dealt with, they can usually be accommodated. For example, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are places where there are artificial belay points on British crags. They can be accommodated where and when it seems there's a need. But that a long way from wanting them everywhere.
> The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
That's complete cobblers. Golfers play to an agreed set of rules, regardless of who owns the course. Some courses have specific rules - usually relating to to out-of-bounds areas and other things related to local geographical or topographical idiosyncrasies.
Similarly, climbers generally climb with an agreed set of ethics in mind. Where there are specific local issues to be dealt with, they can usually be accommodated. For example, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are places where there are artificial belay points on British crags. They can be accommodated where and when it seems there's a need. But that a long way from wanting them everywhere.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Neither do you. We are represented by various bodies on our behalf (BMC, MCOfS) who work with landowners to provide you access, and with them there are rules which are set and abided by the community as a whole.
> The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
Neither do you. We are represented by various bodies on our behalf (BMC, MCOfS) who work with landowners to provide you access, and with them there are rules which are set and abided by the community as a whole.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
No - the rules are made through consensus.
You are welcome to add your views to creating this consensus, but make sure that you have a clear understanding of the issues before making your own mind up too firmly about what is right and what is wrong.
Aren't you wondering, by now, about what you aren't understanding about this issue?
> The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
No - the rules are made through consensus.
You are welcome to add your views to creating this consensus, but make sure that you have a clear understanding of the issues before making your own mind up too firmly about what is right and what is wrong.
Aren't you wondering, by now, about what you aren't understanding about this issue?
In reply to stick it: It just isn't needed. I've been in some shocking belay stances in my timebut I learnt to get creative with what I had and make it safe. we dont want climbers not learning this important skill even if it is slightly risky. Making do is a big part of climbing for me, espespecialy as i learnt to climb on a shoe string budget with next to no kit.,
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
...
Showing your ignorance again. Yes you do. Both the rules of golf and outdoor climbing ones.
Ever heard of local ethics, bolt debates etc??
...
> The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
Showing your ignorance again. Yes you do. Both the rules of golf and outdoor climbing ones.
Ever heard of local ethics, bolt debates etc??
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Yes they do.
>
> Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer.
> Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer.
Yes they do.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Which is exactly what I said to HM Government when I started the UK's first golf course where murder is allowed.
> The problem with that argument is that golfers own the golf courses but trad climbers don't own all the rock in the UK. You don't get to make the rules if you don't own the course.
Which is exactly what I said to HM Government when I started the UK's first golf course where murder is allowed.
In reply to stick it: and Tom.
What happens when these punters you want to encourage, and make no mistake you are encouraging punterdom, come to a belay with no bolts or a busy route where the bolts are already in use?
Better to know what you are doing and be able to look after yourself and your partne. The most satisfying thing about trad climbing is the self reliance and leaving no trace
What happens when these punters you want to encourage, and make no mistake you are encouraging punterdom, come to a belay with no bolts or a busy route where the bolts are already in use?
Better to know what you are doing and be able to look after yourself and your partne. The most satisfying thing about trad climbing is the self reliance and leaving no trace
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Go on then - how often do trad abseil anchors fail ? in an average crag environment, I mean, not retreating from a himalayan giant with one piton. I'd be interested to learn of them.
Out of interest, what does your indoor climber do when they get to the top of the cliff to find that the bolts are crap or there aren't any bolts ? have you really made their lives safer by leading them to expect a climbing wall environment ?
Go on then - how often do trad abseil anchors fail ? in an average crag environment, I mean, not retreating from a himalayan giant with one piton. I'd be interested to learn of them.
Out of interest, what does your indoor climber do when they get to the top of the cliff to find that the bolts are crap or there aren't any bolts ? have you really made their lives safer by leading them to expect a climbing wall environment ?
In reply to GrahamD:
And on the same theme, how often do toprope anchors fail?
Given the number of scout troops, outdoor centres, uni club freshers meets, outward bound courses, parents with kids and so on that happen in the uk, there's a lot of top roping going on. And if Plas Y Brenin (say) were in the habit of dropping people on top-roping courses, I'd imagine that we'd hear about it.
But for some reason we don't...
And on the same theme, how often do toprope anchors fail?
Given the number of scout troops, outdoor centres, uni club freshers meets, outward bound courses, parents with kids and so on that happen in the uk, there's a lot of top roping going on. And if Plas Y Brenin (say) were in the habit of dropping people on top-roping courses, I'd imagine that we'd hear about it.
But for some reason we don't...
In reply to tony:
OK, we've got crossed analogies. The point I was making is that a golf course is owned by golfers and if I use it as cross country run (i.e. for a different sport) and muck up their game then they have a right to get annoyed because its their land.
On the other hand trad climbers do not own disused quarries. Quarries are not dedicated facilities for trad climbing in the way that a golf course is dedicated to golf. It's up to the landowner whether they allow stakes or bolts to be fitted.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
> [...]
>
> That's complete cobblers. Golfers play to an agreed set of rules, regardless of who owns the course. Some courses have specific rules - usually relating to to out-of-bounds areas and other things related to local geographical or topographical idiosyncrasies.
>
> [...]
>
> That's complete cobblers. Golfers play to an agreed set of rules, regardless of who owns the course. Some courses have specific rules - usually relating to to out-of-bounds areas and other things related to local geographical or topographical idiosyncrasies.
OK, we've got crossed analogies. The point I was making is that a golf course is owned by golfers and if I use it as cross country run (i.e. for a different sport) and muck up their game then they have a right to get annoyed because its their land.
On the other hand trad climbers do not own disused quarries. Quarries are not dedicated facilities for trad climbing in the way that a golf course is dedicated to golf. It's up to the landowner whether they allow stakes or bolts to be fitted.
In reply to GrahamD:
It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping and would have set the rope before they got off the ground.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
> Out of interest, what does your indoor climber do when they get to the top of the cliff to find that the bolts are crap or there aren't any bolts ? have you really made their lives safer by leading them to expect a climbing wall environment ?
>
> Out of interest, what does your indoor climber do when they get to the top of the cliff to find that the bolts are crap or there aren't any bolts ? have you really made their lives safer by leading them to expect a climbing wall environment ?
It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping and would have set the rope before they got off the ground.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I'm getting the impression you don't really know what you're trying to say.
>
> OK, we've got crossed analogies. The point I was making is that a golf course is owned by golfers and if I use it as cross country run (i.e. for a different sport) and muck up their game then they have a right to get annoyed because its their land.
>
> On the other hand trad climbers do not own disused quarries. Quarries are not dedicated facilities for trad climbing in the way that a golf course is dedicated to golf. It's up to the landowner whether they allow stakes or bolts to be fitted.
> OK, we've got crossed analogies. The point I was making is that a golf course is owned by golfers and if I use it as cross country run (i.e. for a different sport) and muck up their game then they have a right to get annoyed because its their land.
>
> On the other hand trad climbers do not own disused quarries. Quarries are not dedicated facilities for trad climbing in the way that a golf course is dedicated to golf. It's up to the landowner whether they allow stakes or bolts to be fitted.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I'm getting the impression you don't really know what you're trying to say.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
How would they do that without going to the top of the cliff somehow?
>
> It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping and would have set the rope before they got off the ground.
> It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping and would have set the rope before they got off the ground.
How would they do that without going to the top of the cliff somehow?
In reply to tony:
I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
> I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I'm getting the impression you don't really know what you're trying to say.
I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Why can't they top rope the same as people do now - from normal belays ? sounds much safer than trying to thread a bolt somewhere below the cliff top.
Why can't they top rope the same as people do now - from normal belays ? sounds much safer than trying to thread a bolt somewhere below the cliff top.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: however the climbing community at large come as close to owning the rock as matters for the sake of this discussion and it is a generally accepted ethic in the uk to leave trad routes as trad routes there are a relatively small number of sport routes where local ethics allow i suggest you either stick to these stay inside or try a hobby more suited to your tastes http://www.knittinghelp.com/
In reply to GrahamD:
They can, that would be the best way to do it. All I'm suggesting is that where there's no a tree or a railing or some other natural feature which is obviously secure and could have a sling draped over it then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes near cities to make life easier and safer for the 'punters'. And that in general it would be a bit more sociable to encourage 'punters' to climb outdoors even if they want to start off by top roping or sport climbing than to try and shut them out.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
> Why can't they top rope the same as people do now - from normal belays ? sounds much safer than trying to thread a bolt somewhere below the cliff top.
>
> Why can't they top rope the same as people do now - from normal belays ? sounds much safer than trying to thread a bolt somewhere below the cliff top.
They can, that would be the best way to do it. All I'm suggesting is that where there's no a tree or a railing or some other natural feature which is obviously secure and could have a sling draped over it then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes near cities to make life easier and safer for the 'punters'. And that in general it would be a bit more sociable to encourage 'punters' to climb outdoors even if they want to start off by top roping or sport climbing than to try and shut them out.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
No they don't but the MCOfS represent climbers Scotland and the general consensus is as follows:
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/climbing-guide-style.asp
> I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
No they don't but the MCOfS represent climbers Scotland and the general consensus is as follows:
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/climbing-guide-style.asp
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
>All I'm suggesting is that where there's no a tree or a railing or some other natural feature which is obviously secure and could have a sling draped over it then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes near cities to make life easier and safer for the 'punters'.
All I'm suggesting is where there are no cracks for gear then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes...
The point of our sport is that we try to live up to the challenges presented to us. If you don't have the capability to rig a top rope then leave it to those who do and go and cut your teeth elsewhere and pay your dues just like everyone else. That's how you achieve satisfaction in life, not by seeking out quick and easy experiences.
There's no shortage of routes on which it is easy to rig a top rope, either near or far from cities.
>All I'm suggesting is that where there's no a tree or a railing or some other natural feature which is obviously secure and could have a sling draped over it then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes near cities to make life easier and safer for the 'punters'.
All I'm suggesting is where there are no cracks for gear then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes...
The point of our sport is that we try to live up to the challenges presented to us. If you don't have the capability to rig a top rope then leave it to those who do and go and cut your teeth elsewhere and pay your dues just like everyone else. That's how you achieve satisfaction in life, not by seeking out quick and easy experiences.
There's no shortage of routes on which it is easy to rig a top rope, either near or far from cities.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I'm a punter. I know how to set up a safe belay cos I took the trouble to read a book for free from the library. It took about 10 minutes. If you can't even be bother with that level of dedication, maybe climbing isn't for you.
I'm a punter. I know how to set up a safe belay cos I took the trouble to read a book for free from the library. It took about 10 minutes. If you can't even be bother with that level of dedication, maybe climbing isn't for you.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Top roping! It gets worse......
Mind you, I was wondering how all these people crawling out of climbing walls incompetent in setting up belays were going to protect the actual climbing at all safely.
> (In reply to GrahamD)
> [...]
>
> It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping.
> [...]
>
> It wouldn't happen because they'd be top-roping.
Top roping! It gets worse......
Mind you, I was wondering how all these people crawling out of climbing walls incompetent in setting up belays were going to protect the actual climbing at all safely.
In reply to Dave 88:
I'll bow to your superior skills. I studied mechanical engineering for two years at Uni as part of my first degree but I should probably have skipped that and gone straight to ten minutes with a library book.
> I know how to set up a safe belay cos I took the trouble to read a book for > free from the library. It took about 10 minutes. If you can't even be bother with that level of dedication, maybe climbing isn't for you.
I'll bow to your superior skills. I studied mechanical engineering for two years at Uni as part of my first degree but I should probably have skipped that and gone straight to ten minutes with a library book.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: its ok you dont need an engineering degree to set up a belay.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
If you studied mechanical engineering to learn how to build belays, yes, you probably should have skipped it and just bought a book....it's pretty straightforward stuff.
If you studied mechanical engineering to learn how to build belays, yes, you probably should have skipped it and just bought a book....it's pretty straightforward stuff.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
They're not superior skills, that's exactly my point. It's so easy to learn how to set up a belay, I'm amazed that you seem to have such an aversion to people learning this simple process.
No one is going to pay mechanical engineers to drill belay stations, if that's what you're thinking!
They're not superior skills, that's exactly my point. It's so easy to learn how to set up a belay, I'm amazed that you seem to have such an aversion to people learning this simple process.
No one is going to pay mechanical engineers to drill belay stations, if that's what you're thinking!
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: You still haven't found us a single example of a top-rope or abseil anchor failing in the UK (and to my mind you would need more than one example )
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Although it is about high altitude guiding, I like something Anatoli Boukreev said, which I think sums things up reasonably well - 'people used to prepare for the mountains, now we prepare the mountains for the people'.
I started climbing a few years ago and relatively late in life compared to many I imagine. I looked at trad and thought; too much kit, too much money; too much to learn. I carried on indoors but didn't stamp my feet and demand an indoor experience outside, it was my decision not to put in the effort.
Then a friend with many years trad experience said lets go climbing. It was a faff at first to learn but, watching someone else, using a book (took me a little longer than 10 mins!), equalising anchors from my loft hatch and now I trad climb with my wife, leading, self-sufficient, and absolutely love it.
It appears you want to encourage people outside from climbing walls but rob them of the full experience. I think that would be an absolute shame.
As for grotty quarries, I have yet to have the pleasure but, if you are climbing an existing trad line, there has to be a belay at the top somewhere, surely?
I have never top roped outdoors, don't exactly need to headpoint at my level, but building a decent anchor without bolts to do so has surely got to be considered a basic skill?
Although it is about high altitude guiding, I like something Anatoli Boukreev said, which I think sums things up reasonably well - 'people used to prepare for the mountains, now we prepare the mountains for the people'.
I started climbing a few years ago and relatively late in life compared to many I imagine. I looked at trad and thought; too much kit, too much money; too much to learn. I carried on indoors but didn't stamp my feet and demand an indoor experience outside, it was my decision not to put in the effort.
Then a friend with many years trad experience said lets go climbing. It was a faff at first to learn but, watching someone else, using a book (took me a little longer than 10 mins!), equalising anchors from my loft hatch and now I trad climb with my wife, leading, self-sufficient, and absolutely love it.
It appears you want to encourage people outside from climbing walls but rob them of the full experience. I think that would be an absolute shame.
As for grotty quarries, I have yet to have the pleasure but, if you are climbing an existing trad line, there has to be a belay at the top somewhere, surely?
I have never top roped outdoors, don't exactly need to headpoint at my level, but building a decent anchor without bolts to do so has surely got to be considered a basic skill?
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Good for you. Do you want a blue peter badge? You still haven't answered me on the MCOfS and BMC representing climbers as a whole and the current fixed protection policy.
> (In reply to Dave 88)
> [...]
>
> I'll bow to your superior skills. I studied mechanical engineering for two years at Uni as part of my first degree but I should probably have skipped that and gone straight to ten minutes with a library book.
> [...]
>
> I'll bow to your superior skills. I studied mechanical engineering for two years at Uni as part of my first degree but I should probably have skipped that and gone straight to ten minutes with a library book.
Good for you. Do you want a blue peter badge? You still haven't answered me on the MCOfS and BMC representing climbers as a whole and the current fixed protection policy.
In reply to dpm23:
He seems to be under the impression that the majority of indoor climbers top rope. I think in my experience that the vast majority of indoor climbers who would likely climb outdoors are already involved in leading indoors. Most people you see top roping indoors are people warming up or door, beginners, and day trippers. Neither of which I would expect to see rallying with him for top rop anchors at outdoor crags.
> I have never top roped outdoors, don't exactly need to headpoint at my level, but building a decent anchor without bolts to do so has surely got to be considered a basic skill?
He seems to be under the impression that the majority of indoor climbers top rope. I think in my experience that the vast majority of indoor climbers who would likely climb outdoors are already involved in leading indoors. Most people you see top roping indoors are people warming up or door, beginners, and day trippers. Neither of which I would expect to see rallying with him for top rop anchors at outdoor crags.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Why does it need to be dumbed down further? Setting up a safe belay on most crags is simple, there is no other word for it. There are a few basic skills to learn, a little knowledge to acquire and a little bit of kit needed but it is still basically simple. You could learn (or teach) it in a couple of hours.
I just don't understand where you're coming from on this other than to conclude it's a position of near complete inexperience or ignorance.
You keep coming back to a line 'quarries near cities' while looking to justify this. This is a quarry near you , right? One where you can't rig a safe top rope? You have options:
Lobby the SMC(?) to have it bolted, you never know you might gather some support but it'll likely take years and you position on the proposal could well change over that time.
Bolt it yourself rather than bleeting about the exclusive elites not doing it for you. The problem is the skills you'll acquire in learning to bolt it properly will almost certainly mean you no longer see the point in so doing. Don't expect to be thanked or reimbursed for your work.
Climb somewhere else more suited to your intended use.
Learn the basic skills everyone else climbing outdoors has then start passing on the knowledge to fellow indoor-beginners. Do something constructive, do something to challenge the shocking 'can't do' mentality you seem to be espousing.
jk
> And that in general it would be a bit more sociable to encourage 'punters' to climb outdoors even if they want to start off by top roping or sport climbing than to try and shut them out.
Why does it need to be dumbed down further? Setting up a safe belay on most crags is simple, there is no other word for it. There are a few basic skills to learn, a little knowledge to acquire and a little bit of kit needed but it is still basically simple. You could learn (or teach) it in a couple of hours.
I just don't understand where you're coming from on this other than to conclude it's a position of near complete inexperience or ignorance.
You keep coming back to a line 'quarries near cities' while looking to justify this. This is a quarry near you , right? One where you can't rig a safe top rope? You have options:
Lobby the SMC(?) to have it bolted, you never know you might gather some support but it'll likely take years and you position on the proposal could well change over that time.
Bolt it yourself rather than bleeting about the exclusive elites not doing it for you. The problem is the skills you'll acquire in learning to bolt it properly will almost certainly mean you no longer see the point in so doing. Don't expect to be thanked or reimbursed for your work.
Climb somewhere else more suited to your intended use.
Learn the basic skills everyone else climbing outdoors has then start passing on the knowledge to fellow indoor-beginners. Do something constructive, do something to challenge the shocking 'can't do' mentality you seem to be espousing.
jk
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Especially in the county, if you even contemplated bolts up here even though some of the belays consist of a sheep and some heather., you would be hunted down and hung at the jibbit in elsdon.
> (In reply to tony)
>
> [...]
>
> I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
I think you will find you are wrong, we do own it.>
> [...]
>
> I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
Especially in the county, if you even contemplated bolts up here even though some of the belays consist of a sheep and some heather., you would be hunted down and hung at the jibbit in elsdon.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Too right they don't. Work is done with a large number of interested parties in most cases to establish local ethics, for example, the RSPB, National Trust, walking groups, cycling groups, the military, land owners etc. It isn't just one person saying what would suit them personally.
> I'm trying to say that trad climbers don't own the rock and they don't get to impose their particular style on everyone and they have a disproportionate influence compared with their numbers.
Too right they don't. Work is done with a large number of interested parties in most cases to establish local ethics, for example, the RSPB, National Trust, walking groups, cycling groups, the military, land owners etc. It isn't just one person saying what would suit them personally.
In reply to jkarran:
Well said. There are loads of beginners climbing outside safely in local quarries without the need for bolts. Most good quarries where natural belays are absent have stakes or bolts already. Some quarries are even totally bolted for sports climbing. I'd suggest Tom does more research on the reality and variety of his local climbing venues and less on accident risk rates (which don't relate to begginers under instruction anyhow).
Well said. There are loads of beginners climbing outside safely in local quarries without the need for bolts. Most good quarries where natural belays are absent have stakes or bolts already. Some quarries are even totally bolted for sports climbing. I'd suggest Tom does more research on the reality and variety of his local climbing venues and less on accident risk rates (which don't relate to begginers under instruction anyhow).
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
There is a lot of encouragement to enable 'punters' to get out. We have all taken advantage of this encouragement. There is the whole club system, not to mention numerous course. There are offers all the time on here from people happy to take people out and show them what is what.
How do you imagine that any trad climber got started?
Why bother putting bolts in if there is good gear already available?
Have a look here to find your local club:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/map#clubs,huts
> They can, that would be the best way to do it. All I'm suggesting is that where there's no a tree or a railing or some other natural feature which is obviously secure and could have a sling draped over it then a couple of bits of metal could get installed on suitable routes near cities to make life easier and safer for the 'punters'. And that in general it would be a bit more sociable to encourage 'punters' to climb outdoors even if they want to start off by top roping or sport climbing than to try and shut them out.
There is a lot of encouragement to enable 'punters' to get out. We have all taken advantage of this encouragement. There is the whole club system, not to mention numerous course. There are offers all the time on here from people happy to take people out and show them what is what.
How do you imagine that any trad climber got started?
Why bother putting bolts in if there is good gear already available?
Have a look here to find your local club:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/map#clubs,huts
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
The thing is Tom in Edinburgh, there is somewhere close to you that has all you require - Blackford Hill.
You will need your own rope, slings of varying length and crabs as they tend to get a bit manky or get nicked when left in situ, and unfortunately there is no chap at the bottom with a supply so rent out to you.
Oh, and the skills to set up a toprope. Not hard, but something you will have to LEARN!
This bit is important, even somewhere like Blackford hill. It is still high enough to fall to your death from, and you have to go to the top first as there is no rope already hanging for you. And I've seen it nearly happen there, precisely because the participants clearly hadn't learnt how to build an anchor, even from the bolts.
Does this illustrate a couple of the problems with your grand plan of sending all the climbing wall kids outdoors?
Well, how about another - who is going to set up these bolted stations for them? Climbers who have taken the trouble to learn the skills for themselves presumably. Can I just ask, "What's in it for them?".
I very rarely post, but your attitude stinks. Go take up tiddlywinks instead. But don't forget the safety goggles.
Andy
The thing is Tom in Edinburgh, there is somewhere close to you that has all you require - Blackford Hill.
You will need your own rope, slings of varying length and crabs as they tend to get a bit manky or get nicked when left in situ, and unfortunately there is no chap at the bottom with a supply so rent out to you.
Oh, and the skills to set up a toprope. Not hard, but something you will have to LEARN!
This bit is important, even somewhere like Blackford hill. It is still high enough to fall to your death from, and you have to go to the top first as there is no rope already hanging for you. And I've seen it nearly happen there, precisely because the participants clearly hadn't learnt how to build an anchor, even from the bolts.
Does this illustrate a couple of the problems with your grand plan of sending all the climbing wall kids outdoors?
Well, how about another - who is going to set up these bolted stations for them? Climbers who have taken the trouble to learn the skills for themselves presumably. Can I just ask, "What's in it for them?".
I very rarely post, but your attitude stinks. Go take up tiddlywinks instead. But don't forget the safety goggles.
Andy
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
You might find some of the following interesting?
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/climbing-participation-statement.asp
http://tinyurl.com/86dkysm
http://blog.lwimages.co.uk/2011/05/16/the-bmc-%e2%80%98bolts-and-ethics%e2%...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/16/climbers-italians-bolt-ladder-c...
http://www.philipebert.info/resources/Climbing-final.pdf
http://climbingbolts.wordpress.com/
http://tinyurl.com/7urwwek
You might find some of the following interesting?
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/climbing-participation-statement.asp
http://tinyurl.com/86dkysm
http://blog.lwimages.co.uk/2011/05/16/the-bmc-%e2%80%98bolts-and-ethics%e2%...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/16/climbers-italians-bolt-ladder-c...
http://www.philipebert.info/resources/Climbing-final.pdf
http://climbingbolts.wordpress.com/
http://tinyurl.com/7urwwek
In reply to stick it: is there anyone on this thread aged over 18? you sound (with one or two notable exceptions) like extras from the muppet show. hopefully natural selection will have a place in your future. or lack of.
So some interesting points have been raised, Thankyou very much
Hope everyone has an awesome year of adventures and fun ahead of them, maybe see a few of you soon; Will be bolting a quite a few more routes this summer, If you come across them feel free to clip and smile to yourself!!
Hope everyone has an awesome year of adventures and fun ahead of them, maybe see a few of you soon; Will be bolting a quite a few more routes this summer, If you come across them feel free to clip and smile to yourself!!
In reply to stick it:
Please don't. You have demonstrated a remarkable, and depressing, level of ignorance in this thread, and I would guess that you are really of pretty limited competence.
The probability of your bolts being unnecessary and inappropriate is very high, verging on complete certainty.
I really hope this isn't the future of British climbing. Now that really would be depressing...
CJ.
> So some interesting points have been raised, Thankyou very much
>
> Will be bolting a quite a few more routes this summer...
>
> Will be bolting a quite a few more routes this summer...
Please don't. You have demonstrated a remarkable, and depressing, level of ignorance in this thread, and I would guess that you are really of pretty limited competence.
The probability of your bolts being unnecessary and inappropriate is very high, verging on complete certainty.
I really hope this isn't the future of British climbing. Now that really would be depressing...
CJ.
In reply to Anonymous:
far more likely to be the future of UKC trolling....
g
> (In reply to stick it)
> [...]
> [...]
>
> I really hope this isn't the future of British climbing. Now that really would be depressing...
>
> CJ.
> I really hope this isn't the future of British climbing. Now that really would be depressing...
>
> CJ.
far more likely to be the future of UKC trolling....
g
In reply to Robert Durran:
Why should they "just stay indoors"? Surely each to his own, not each to your own.
Why should they "just stay indoors"? Surely each to his own, not each to your own.
In reply to highlanderwolf:
Because, if they are not prepared to climb outdoors without bolted top rope anchors, there will, hopefully, be no climbing outdoors they are prepared to do. Their choice, not mine.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Why should they "just stay indoors"? Surely each to his own, not each to your own.
>
> Why should they "just stay indoors"? Surely each to his own, not each to your own.
Because, if they are not prepared to climb outdoors without bolted top rope anchors, there will, hopefully, be no climbing outdoors they are prepared to do. Their choice, not mine.
In reply to stick it: I like sheep too! Although I have never used one as an anchor. Have ewe?
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Yep and evidence suggests that people just take more risks when the equipment is made 'safer' (ABS in cars for instance).
Leaving aside that the accident rates you've quoted don't actually seem to tell us much (there are a lot more differences between indoor and outdoor climbing than just anchors) I take issue with the assumption that bolts provide a failsafe way of having someone with zero experience set up an anchor. This sounds like a recipe for disaster, you just need to go for a day out to Harrisons to see all manner of people using bolts in questionable ways.
>
> Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
> Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer. Not crashing makes cars safer.
> Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
> Air bags/Seat belts/Crumple zones don't make cars safer. Not crashing makes cars safer.
Yep and evidence suggests that people just take more risks when the equipment is made 'safer' (ABS in cars for instance).
Leaving aside that the accident rates you've quoted don't actually seem to tell us much (there are a lot more differences between indoor and outdoor climbing than just anchors) I take issue with the assumption that bolts provide a failsafe way of having someone with zero experience set up an anchor. This sounds like a recipe for disaster, you just need to go for a day out to Harrisons to see all manner of people using bolts in questionable ways.
In reply to speekingleesh:
Nice qualitative argument there. How do you explain the fact that fatal and 'fatal and serious' accidents per mile travelled have fallen steadily and are now about half what they were in the 1994-1998 period (for every kind of road except motorways where the improvement is small) http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/ras10002.xls?
I wouldn't that people might indulge in more risky behaviour when they know there is a safety system. But in the case of cars even if there is more risky behaviour the injury rate still falls.
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> [...]
>
> Yep and evidence suggests that people just take more risks when the equipment is made 'safer' (ABS in cars for instance).
> [...]
>
> Yep and evidence suggests that people just take more risks when the equipment is made 'safer' (ABS in cars for instance).
Nice qualitative argument there. How do you explain the fact that fatal and 'fatal and serious' accidents per mile travelled have fallen steadily and are now about half what they were in the 1994-1998 period (for every kind of road except motorways where the improvement is small) http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/ras10002.xls?
I wouldn't that people might indulge in more risky behaviour when they know there is a safety system. But in the case of cars even if there is more risky behaviour the injury rate still falls.
In reply to Anonymous:
Absail stations are Ok in the right places. But what is wrong with people when they only need to set there own station up and then walk round and take it down at the end of the day. People with out these skills should stick to the safety of a climbing wall, go on course, or learn like every body else did
Absail stations are Ok in the right places. But what is wrong with people when they only need to set there own station up and then walk round and take it down at the end of the day. People with out these skills should stick to the safety of a climbing wall, go on course, or learn like every body else did
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Well you started that one off with your unbacked up assertion that trad belays routinely fail.
> (In reply to speekingleesh)
> [...]
>
> Nice qualitative argument there.
> [...]
>
> Nice qualitative argument there.
Well you started that one off with your unbacked up assertion that trad belays routinely fail.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Found a failing belay incident yet?
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