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In the past month there has been two instances of carbon monoxide poisoning 1 in Penrith area where a man died in a Pod and this week 1 on Minch Moor a man was found unconscious in a tent both involved a cooking appliance which may have been used for extra warmth. Any fuel burning appliance needs air for complete combustion so the area it is being used needs to be ventilated to enable this. So we should all learn from these incidents and be very careful when using fuel burning appliances for warmth especially while asleep!!!
In reply to dbell67:
There's a lot of horror stories like this, unfortunately happens all the time. There was one where two lads bypassed the safety on a calor gas fire to stay warm all night without the gas cutting off. so when the oxygen had all dissipated the carbon monoxide filled the air and the two lads never woke up.
There's a lot of horror stories like this, unfortunately happens all the time. There was one where two lads bypassed the safety on a calor gas fire to stay warm all night without the gas cutting off. so when the oxygen had all dissipated the carbon monoxide filled the air and the two lads never woke up.
In reply to dbell67:
What's a pod?
In this case the BBC reports that he is doing much better and they are talking about him leaving hospital which is nice to hear!
There was an email doing the rounds of the Alpine Club networks last year from someone who nearly succumbed after using a MSR Reactor in a tent. The Reactors are amazing stoves, but because they feel so safe and quiet, it probably very easy to forget you are in a tent with it!
> a man died in a Pod
What's a pod?
> on Minch Moor a man was found unconscious in a tent
In this case the BBC reports that he is doing much better and they are talking about him leaving hospital which is nice to hear!
There was an email doing the rounds of the Alpine Club networks last year from someone who nearly succumbed after using a MSR Reactor in a tent. The Reactors are amazing stoves, but because they feel so safe and quiet, it probably very easy to forget you are in a tent with it!
its those little wooden hut things on campsites.
In reply to TobyA: A Pod is a bit like a shed erected on a camp site which allows people the luxury of being on a camp site without the need to stay in a tent. "Glamping."
I think it was only last summer a man died of the same after putting his BBQ in his van with him to warm it up through the night.Very sad.
I think it was only last summer a man died of the same after putting his BBQ in his van with him to warm it up through the night.Very sad.
In reply to TobyA:
pod = hytte. A new and radical concept to those poor savages who use UK camp sites
pod = hytte. A new and radical concept to those poor savages who use UK camp sites
In reply to TobyA:
MSR reactor states very clearly not to use in a tent due to hazard of CO build up. That said I wonder how many people read it and believe it.
MSR reactor states very clearly not to use in a tent due to hazard of CO build up. That said I wonder how many people read it and believe it.
It seems like some people believe that a tent is ventilated enough not to cause a problem with incomplete combustion. Hopefully some will learn from these unfortunate instances and turn to hand warmers/hot water bottles/better sleeping bags to keep warm
In reply to dbell67:
Off track a bit but some relevance
In the Crimean War; British troops were issued with charcoal fuelled cookers and there were a number of fatalities due to them not being warned against using them inside tents.
Off track a bit but some relevance
In the Crimean War; British troops were issued with charcoal fuelled cookers and there were a number of fatalities due to them not being warned against using them inside tents.
In reply to dbell67: I recently looked into various CO poisoning incidents in the context of risk assessments for things like DofE expeditions.
The clear common factor in 80-90% of cases is the use of solid fuels. As such, the message is simple: NEVER EVER use BBQs (or braziers, heaters etc.) inside enclosed spaces for any reason. Thankfully this is not relevant to most mountaineers or backpackers but we should certainly all be aware of it in the context of family or recreational camping, so this is a very useful thread in terms of reminding everyone of this.
As regards use of gas appliances, my general finding was that there were probably still more cases of tents catching fire than CO poisoning. As such, my conclusion was that standard 'good practice' with respect to minimising the risk of fire when wild camping is probably more than sufficient to also protect against CO poisoning; cook immediately outside the tent or in an open tent porch whenever possible, never leave stoves unsupervised, provide sufficient ventilation to avoid condensation (and hence CO) and always maintain an easily accessible escape route (hence additional ventilation).
As far as DofE expeditions etc. was concerned I concluded I didn't need to substantially alter any existing training or procedures other than to ensure CO risk was mentioned alongside Fire risk when discussing where to locate and how to operate stoves, especially in inclement weather.
In terms of equipment choice, I felt it probably reinforced the case for low profile stoves with windshields (i.e. pretty much anything EXCEPT canister mounts stoves and JetBoils) as they are more easily used immediately outside of a tent in bad weather rather than inside the tent porch. However, I'd be interested on any other views on that point.
The only other issue that crossed my mind was tent design - do different styles of tent (e.g. family camping vs performance mountain tent) have significant differences in terms of ventilation and hence CO poisoning risk? I thought probably not, but couldn't be certain as I know some tents are very bad for condensation which might indicate much poorer ventilation.
The clear common factor in 80-90% of cases is the use of solid fuels. As such, the message is simple: NEVER EVER use BBQs (or braziers, heaters etc.) inside enclosed spaces for any reason. Thankfully this is not relevant to most mountaineers or backpackers but we should certainly all be aware of it in the context of family or recreational camping, so this is a very useful thread in terms of reminding everyone of this.
As regards use of gas appliances, my general finding was that there were probably still more cases of tents catching fire than CO poisoning. As such, my conclusion was that standard 'good practice' with respect to minimising the risk of fire when wild camping is probably more than sufficient to also protect against CO poisoning; cook immediately outside the tent or in an open tent porch whenever possible, never leave stoves unsupervised, provide sufficient ventilation to avoid condensation (and hence CO) and always maintain an easily accessible escape route (hence additional ventilation).
As far as DofE expeditions etc. was concerned I concluded I didn't need to substantially alter any existing training or procedures other than to ensure CO risk was mentioned alongside Fire risk when discussing where to locate and how to operate stoves, especially in inclement weather.
In terms of equipment choice, I felt it probably reinforced the case for low profile stoves with windshields (i.e. pretty much anything EXCEPT canister mounts stoves and JetBoils) as they are more easily used immediately outside of a tent in bad weather rather than inside the tent porch. However, I'd be interested on any other views on that point.
The only other issue that crossed my mind was tent design - do different styles of tent (e.g. family camping vs performance mountain tent) have significant differences in terms of ventilation and hence CO poisoning risk? I thought probably not, but couldn't be certain as I know some tents are very bad for condensation which might indicate much poorer ventilation.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: According to the research paper link posted above, meths stoves are very low risk, presumably as they dont burn as hot as other fuels require a lower air flow for complete combustion. So trangia's, which are as stable as they come, get another positive tick and could be another reason they're DofE recommended kit.
I would think regarding tent design, bigger would mean more chance of dilution but i would think the bigger factor would be whether the outer and ground sheet are 1 piece design and the number of vents. I've got a tempest and i've used the porch area a few times for cooking in the rain. Theres a chimney above, can open the door a touch from the top and theres a gap around the whole tent at ground level. Can get a nice flow of air through it. An all in one design would take much longer to flush the CO out by diffusing through the vents/skin if the user was fully zipped in.
I would think regarding tent design, bigger would mean more chance of dilution but i would think the bigger factor would be whether the outer and ground sheet are 1 piece design and the number of vents. I've got a tempest and i've used the porch area a few times for cooking in the rain. Theres a chimney above, can open the door a touch from the top and theres a gap around the whole tent at ground level. Can get a nice flow of air through it. An all in one design would take much longer to flush the CO out by diffusing through the vents/skin if the user was fully zipped in.
In reply to antdav: I would have thought double doors allowing airflow through the tent, particularly if there was any breeze would do the job.
In reply to TobyA: trouble is that a tent with double doors may make the user feel safer as it'll be a big space so they dont open the doors at all. I would think the biggest factor is the persons awareness of the risk and the steps they take to mitigate it and if they are enjoying the heat they want want to waste it by opening any air flow. 2 doors with one open at the bottom and the other at the top would be an ideal option.
In reply to antdav:
In most situations 'hot' burning is actually safer than cooler burning as it leads to complete(ish) combustion & less CO emission and build up. Blue flame good, yellow flame bad.
D
In most situations 'hot' burning is actually safer than cooler burning as it leads to complete(ish) combustion & less CO emission and build up. Blue flame good, yellow flame bad.
D
In reply to Dauphin:
Correct, that's the basic theory.
You could be picky and figure out he ventilation required etc, but personally I'd say cook in the opening if possible, even better outside,, if not have stove on minimum time possible.
As for warmth invest in a better sleeping bag?
> (In reply to antdav)
>
> In most situations 'hot' burning is actually safer than cooler burning as it leads to complete(ish) combustion & less CO emission and build up. Blue flame good, yellow flame bad.
>
>
> D
>
> In most situations 'hot' burning is actually safer than cooler burning as it leads to complete(ish) combustion & less CO emission and build up. Blue flame good, yellow flame bad.
>
>
> D
Correct, that's the basic theory.
You could be picky and figure out he ventilation required etc, but personally I'd say cook in the opening if possible, even better outside,, if not have stove on minimum time possible.
As for warmth invest in a better sleeping bag?
hot burning of a given fuel is better than cold burning it i.e. flame colours, but a cooler burning fuel such as meths requires a low rate of O2 to hit the complete combustion threashold. A trangia flame is nicely blue (when you can see it) but still takes an age to make a brew.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
keep a knife handy so you don't need to go through the porch to escape a burning tent
keep a knife handy so you don't need to go through the porch to escape a burning tent
In reply to dbell67:
Sad news, a good reminder.
great thing about trangias is cooking in the rain, the frying pan lid acts like an umbrella
Sad news, a good reminder.
great thing about trangias is cooking in the rain, the frying pan lid acts like an umbrella
> great thing about trangias is cooking in the rain, the frying pan lid acts like an umbrella
I can't believe anyone still uses those things, I thought like Hexes and patrol tents, Trangias were a thing of the past
In reply to blurty: nah, they're still great! Fill up, fire & forget. i'm prepared to wait an extra couple of mins for a cup of tea...what else am I gonna do, change the oil on the car?
I still use one. No need to worry about when your gas is running low, wont fall over, pick up meths from all sorts of places, less likely to break, dont burn your beans on the bottom of your pan, cheaper than a gas stove as they come with pans (if you buy the knock off versions) and cheap to run.
In reply to thin bob:
Yeah, the meth Trangia is fire and forget.
Now, the first time I fired up my brand new petrol insert for said Trangia, I forgot about it. What should have been boiled potatoes became indigestible char coal...
Yeah, the meth Trangia is fire and forget.
Now, the first time I fired up my brand new petrol insert for said Trangia, I forgot about it. What should have been boiled potatoes became indigestible char coal...
In reply to dbell67:
Here's a post I made a few days ago on the Expedition & Alpine forum:
Keep well hydrated. Chris Bonington would stop during the day to brew up on his Himalayan climbs to keep hydrated.
Don't breath carbon monoxide from your cooking stove:
http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm
In the mid 70's Off Belay magazine had an article on carbon monoxide production by camp stoves. They all put out considerable amounts. Very dangerous. As the flame contacts the cold pan combustion becomes incomplete and CO is formed. The lower the pot the greater the CO production. By raising the heigth of the pot so little flame contacts the pot CO production is reduced dramatically with only 5-10% loss of efficiency. This is a problem stove manufacturers and gear retailers have not addressed responsibly.
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Monoxide.htm
"While backpacking in New Hampshire's White Mountains last winter, four members of our party of 12 complained of dizziness and nausea after supper. The symptoms were the same as as those associated with altitude sickness, but we were camped at only 3400 feet. All four men felt fine the next morning, and the incident passed without explanation. Several months later we found a small winter-stove and cook-kit combination at a low price at a local hardware store. We bought a stove and decided to try it out by cooking lunch in an office at work. After 30 minutes, we noticed we felt dizzy and were experiencing mild headaches. We smelled combustion odors and decided to test for carbon monoxide. Our suspicions were confirmed when we found carbon monoxide levels of more than 100 parts per million (ppm) near the stove. We recalled the complaints of the four men during our winter trip. Unlike the rest of the group, they had cooked supper inside their tent because of severe winds and a low temperature. We decided their discomfort probably had resulted from exposure to a high level of carbon monoxide produced by their mountain stove."
Cold Research Division, US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, Massachusetts.
"Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning is a common problem encountered in a wide variety of settings, including both suicide attempts and accidental exposures. Fatal CO exposure occurred in two young, healthy mountain climbers who succumbed to fumes generated by a small cook stove in the enclosed space of their tent at 14,200 feet on Mount McKinley. There is the potential for confusing mild to moderate CO poisoning with the signs and symptoms of altitude illness.
One Norwegian study (see Thomassen below) exposed 7 healthy young nonsmoking male subjects to 2 hours of melting snow with an Optimus 111 stove in three different tents at a campsite 200m (650') above sea level . They all ended up with COHb levels of greater than 20%. At that low elevation the subjects were already experiencing signs of CO poisoning from their burning stove and were subject to the possible long term neurologic damage and potentially deadly CO levels. Exposure to similar levels of CO at greater elevations is a sure invitation to a very dreary death."
http://www.spiritburner.com/
Here's a good article from Backpacker Magazine:
http://www.spiritburner.com/fusion/showtopic.php?tid/123/
excerpt:
"Since both altitude and carbon monoxide reduce the oxygen saturation of the blood, their effects are approximately additive. Suppose our winter mountaineers cook in their tent at an elevation of 5,000 feet, instead. The HbO2 saturation in their blood would be 95% (the normal amount at 5,000 feet) minus the 5% reduction caused by the stove, or 90%. They would experience drowsiness, lassitude and mental fatigue,
At 10,000 feet the mountaineers’ HbO2 levels would be 85% saturation. Headache, nausea and euphoria could ensue, and they could be in some danger.
At altitudes higher than 10,000 feet, exposure to levels of CO becomes very dangerous. At altitudes of 17,000 feet, the mountaineers could vomit and collapse.
These effects represent what typical mountaineers might experience under the conditions indicated. But they might vary considerably from one individual to another depending on physical condition, acclimatization to altitude and amount of exercise."
A simple experiment to test ventilation is to light a stick of incense next to the stove. The amount of incense you can smell will give a good idea of ventilation efficiency.
Carbon monoxide (CO) is so extremely poisonous that one needs to totally isolate the stove from the living area. An enclosed vestibule or separate chamber in the snow cave or just put the stove outside. Also a chimney system could take care of the problem and made out of nylon could be very light weight.
Here's a post I made a few days ago on the Expedition & Alpine forum:
Keep well hydrated. Chris Bonington would stop during the day to brew up on his Himalayan climbs to keep hydrated.
Don't breath carbon monoxide from your cooking stove:
http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm
In the mid 70's Off Belay magazine had an article on carbon monoxide production by camp stoves. They all put out considerable amounts. Very dangerous. As the flame contacts the cold pan combustion becomes incomplete and CO is formed. The lower the pot the greater the CO production. By raising the heigth of the pot so little flame contacts the pot CO production is reduced dramatically with only 5-10% loss of efficiency. This is a problem stove manufacturers and gear retailers have not addressed responsibly.
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Monoxide.htm
"While backpacking in New Hampshire's White Mountains last winter, four members of our party of 12 complained of dizziness and nausea after supper. The symptoms were the same as as those associated with altitude sickness, but we were camped at only 3400 feet. All four men felt fine the next morning, and the incident passed without explanation. Several months later we found a small winter-stove and cook-kit combination at a low price at a local hardware store. We bought a stove and decided to try it out by cooking lunch in an office at work. After 30 minutes, we noticed we felt dizzy and were experiencing mild headaches. We smelled combustion odors and decided to test for carbon monoxide. Our suspicions were confirmed when we found carbon monoxide levels of more than 100 parts per million (ppm) near the stove. We recalled the complaints of the four men during our winter trip. Unlike the rest of the group, they had cooked supper inside their tent because of severe winds and a low temperature. We decided their discomfort probably had resulted from exposure to a high level of carbon monoxide produced by their mountain stove."
Cold Research Division, US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, Massachusetts.
"Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning is a common problem encountered in a wide variety of settings, including both suicide attempts and accidental exposures. Fatal CO exposure occurred in two young, healthy mountain climbers who succumbed to fumes generated by a small cook stove in the enclosed space of their tent at 14,200 feet on Mount McKinley. There is the potential for confusing mild to moderate CO poisoning with the signs and symptoms of altitude illness.
One Norwegian study (see Thomassen below) exposed 7 healthy young nonsmoking male subjects to 2 hours of melting snow with an Optimus 111 stove in three different tents at a campsite 200m (650') above sea level . They all ended up with COHb levels of greater than 20%. At that low elevation the subjects were already experiencing signs of CO poisoning from their burning stove and were subject to the possible long term neurologic damage and potentially deadly CO levels. Exposure to similar levels of CO at greater elevations is a sure invitation to a very dreary death."
http://www.spiritburner.com/
Here's a good article from Backpacker Magazine:
http://www.spiritburner.com/fusion/showtopic.php?tid/123/
excerpt:
"Since both altitude and carbon monoxide reduce the oxygen saturation of the blood, their effects are approximately additive. Suppose our winter mountaineers cook in their tent at an elevation of 5,000 feet, instead. The HbO2 saturation in their blood would be 95% (the normal amount at 5,000 feet) minus the 5% reduction caused by the stove, or 90%. They would experience drowsiness, lassitude and mental fatigue,
At 10,000 feet the mountaineers’ HbO2 levels would be 85% saturation. Headache, nausea and euphoria could ensue, and they could be in some danger.
At altitudes higher than 10,000 feet, exposure to levels of CO becomes very dangerous. At altitudes of 17,000 feet, the mountaineers could vomit and collapse.
These effects represent what typical mountaineers might experience under the conditions indicated. But they might vary considerably from one individual to another depending on physical condition, acclimatization to altitude and amount of exercise."
A simple experiment to test ventilation is to light a stick of incense next to the stove. The amount of incense you can smell will give a good idea of ventilation efficiency.
Carbon monoxide (CO) is so extremely poisonous that one needs to totally isolate the stove from the living area. An enclosed vestibule or separate chamber in the snow cave or just put the stove outside. Also a chimney system could take care of the problem and made out of nylon could be very light weight.
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