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How are you coping with the increasing petrol/diesel costs?

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 The Lemming 25 Mar 2012
Can't be that bad today, seeing as the country went up in arms 12 years ago leading with Lorry blockades. Back then unleaded was roughly 80 pence per litre.

Or are we a nation that just rolls over?

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/what-makes-petrol-deisel-prices-so-high-in...

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html
 Chris Shorter 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

.....where is it really significantly cheaper? OK in Saudi Arabia or USA but I'm talking about in the European market. Certainly Germany, Czech Republic and Holland (to name 3 I've been in recently) are all pretty expensive. Bulgaria might have been even more so, which considering the wages there are probably a third of UK levels, it's surprising anyone can afford it. I believe it's a myth that the UK price of petrol is unusually high.
 Neil Williams 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

"Or are we a nation that just rolls over?"

I think we recognise that the Government has, generally, been helping out a bit by staving off tax increases etc. The high cost of fuel at the moment has largely been caused by the high price of crude oil.

What I don't get about fuel tax, alcohol tax etc is why it is not expressed as a percentage. That way the Government would not have to take the adverse hit of an increase; it would just increase with the increase in the base price.

Neil
 balmybaldwin 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

In france it's about the same in euros as it is in the uk in pounds (i.e. about €1.47 for Diesel) which is significantly cheaper...

The other factor that's effecting it a lot is the value of the pound. back in 2008 Crude was $144 per barrel and the pound bought you nearly 2$ its $125 ish at the moment and the pound buys $1.58.

Having said that the value of the £ vs $ has risen a bit so far this year from a low of £1:$1.53 to £1:$1.58 which has actually hidden some of the rise in crude prices this year
 Brass Nipples 25 Mar 2012
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> In france it's about the same in euros as it is in the uk in pounds (i.e. about €1.47 for Diesel) which is significantly cheaper...
>

If you use the French Governments Carburants site you'll find you can still get Diesel for 1.37 Euros (about £1.18). It's the site I use before driving to the Alps to plan my cheap stops.

 Philip 25 Mar 2012
In France diesel is cheaper that petrol, it was here until G Brown (I think) changed the duty as more people were buying diesels for personal use. I was under the impression diesel is the cheaper product to make, but it does depend on the type of crude.
Removed User 25 Mar 2012
In reply to A Game of Chance:

Do you have a link for that site? I'm driving to Beziers in a couple of weeks so any directions to cheaper fuel would be welcome.
Anonymous 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

> Or are we a nation that just rolls over?

Spoken in true Jeremy Vine fashion, as ever.

Re. your OP, the one consolation is that if it's hitting me hard (and it is), it's hitting all those tw*ts in their 4 x 4s even harder).
About time people thought more in terms of £ per mile rather than £ per gallon.
It's not the same for everyone.
 gd303uk 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming: How are you coping with the increasing petrol/diesel costs?

i drive less and plan days out better, as in share the costs with other climbers, decide to visit places closer by,i am more flexible as to where i want to go.
 jules699 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming: I cycle everywhere 9 times outta 10. My car fuel run down to last 19 miles today so its ready to konk out any day now...new motor...just a lack of inclination on my part to go to the pump!!
 gd303uk 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming: i also drive slower, i have one of those displays that show your mpg on a good day if i tailgate a truck i can get to Wales doing 55 miles to the gallon. driving below 60mph.
Anonymous 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

And if you think you've got it bad where you are, spare a thought for those people in the north-west of Scotland, or the Northern Isles.

The price differential is a fecking outrage, the more so when you consider how much of the price is tax and therefore the same amount everywhere.

http: //www.brianwilsonwrites.com/?p=169
Anonymous 25 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

Bugger, wrong link. Should have been
http: //www.brianwilsonwrites.com/docs/WHFP_20110916.pdf
 thin bob 25 Mar 2012
In reply to jules699:
> (In reply to The Lemming) I cycle everywhere 9 times outta 10. My car fuel run down to last 19 miles today so its ready to konk out any day now...new motor...just a lack of inclination on my part to go to the pump!!

honest, there can be a lot of sediment & general crap in the bottom of a tank, so best not to run it on fumes...
 thin bob 25 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous: True, but less time sat in traffic jams, so less fuel used?
 Ann S 25 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

At this rate I can see Sedan chairs and Hansom cabs making a comeback. I consider it a successful day if my car hasn't moved from the kerb.
 The New NickB 26 Mar 2012
In reply to thin bob:
> (In reply to Anonymous) True, but less time sat in traffic jams, so less fuel used?

But greater distances to travel, so more fuel used.
 woolsack 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming: Maybe these stifling high oil prices might be about to come crashing down. Seems that there is not huge demand underpinning the prices and that it is speculators driving prices.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/03/chris-cook-spikes-and-speculation-in...
 veteye 26 Mar 2012
In reply to thin bob:
The sediment may be there in cars which are not run down to the bottom very often,but surely if you do it all the time then a small amount must be syphoned through each time avoiding the build up.Besides he did say that his car is a new one.
I routinely fill right up and drain it right down, sometimes to the level of the predicted range on the dashboard going to - - - - -, or zero for a couple of miles.I tend to go by the range that I have got out of a tank to see how economically I have driven, rather than working out mpg.I usually aim to get 500 from a tank,but seldom get quite that much out.
 thin bob 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:
The things I remember from the 1970's: 55 mph, no unecessary low gear motoring, turn off your engine at traffic lights & jams.

Number two conflicts with 'right gear, right time', but no biggy, we're nor pursuit drivers nor rally drivers.....does turning your engine off really save much?
In reply to The Lemming: I am always amazed at how many cars are diesel now. They can't all be high mileage reps. Somehow the car industry has managed to convince everyone that diesel cars are cheaper to run, but fail to tell you how many miles you need to do to be better off than petrol.

In reply to Game of Conkers: This link shows the mileage required to make the diesel more economical than the petrol for a large number of popular cars.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/buying/archive/Petrol-vs-Diesel-calcul...
 LastBoyScout 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

I do try and cycle as much as possible, but my fiancé doesn't like turning up to social events on the tandem with flies in her hair, so the car has to be used

Other than that, I work from home 2 days a week and occasionally get the train into London to visit another office. Last week, I managed to work from home 4 days and this week it will be 3 days, so a nice, cheap, fortnight from that point of view.

Try and car share as much as possible for weekends away, but we did that anyway.
 mattrm 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

Yeah, we use our car less. Not that we've ever been heavy car users. It just means that the trips up to the Lakes cost a few quid more.

Very interested to see the figures on diesel vs petrol cars and when they break even. Had been wondering for a while if a efficient petrol car would be better than a diesel. Certainly something to consider when I get the next car.
In reply to Game of Conkers: I have a 2 litre, Diesel, VW Passat which according to the chart looks like one of the better diesels to own. I love mine. It's fast, quite, comfortable, has a very spacious boot and if I drive at 55 miles/hour I can get 60 MPG. I bought it when it was 6 months old and it wasn't much more expensive than the petrol model.

Al
 Swig 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Game of Conkers:

My recollection is that this "diesel premium" continues for 2nd hand cars. Given the price of fuel and possibly the amount of money a 2nd hand buyer has vs. a new car buyer we might expect it to be stronger.




 Tall Clare 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

I've started working from home, but then I could walk to my (then) place of work from where I lived before... I now live with my partner so there are no more 40 mile round trips to see him.

However, I now live what seems to be around 25 miles from each of the places I want to go to, which makes climbing wall trips, for instance, suddenly rather expensive - a 50 mile round trip as opposed to a two mile round trip.

My income has taken a big hit so I do have to think a lot more about whether I need to make car journeys - and for me it's easy to walk into my local town, which is a luxury people living in more remote rural locations don't have.
 jules699 26 Mar 2012
In reply to thin bob: I thought that was a bit of a myth?
 Tall Clare 26 Mar 2012
In reply to jules699:

I believe it was definitely the case on older cars - not sure about newer ones. I understand that the fuel filter is what catches a lot of it and stops it being dragged into the engine.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: Fair enough. For me, petrol is better because I do less than 10k miles a year. Also, when you factor in the DPF (particle filter?) which seems to go wrong on a lot of cars...diesel seems like a waste of money to me.

60 mpg is only any good if you are doing a lot of mileage, otherwise the premium on purchase of car and fuel cost makes it irrelevant
 Trangia 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

Avoiding using car as much as possible for journies under 4 miles and walking. Using public transport whenever possible. When using car avoiding excessive use of accelerator. If the car will do 0-60 in 7 seconds, so what? Pull away more gently and take 15 seconds, after all what am I going to do with those 8 seconds I save if I pull away rapidly? Coast down hills, and find the speed at which the car is happiest at and uses the least amount of fuel on a long trip, which in my car happens to co-incide close to the speed limits ie 55-60 on most open roads, 70 on motorways. Going at 79 on a motorway significantly increases the fuel consumption, as gdoes going at 60 (which is unfair on other drivers).

Car sharing wherever possible, including for crag trips.

When my fuel guage is dropping below 50% start keeping an eye open for cheap fuel deals and top up at the best opportunity.
 Cú Chullain 26 Mar 2012
I picked up my landcruiser this weekend after it had been kitted out for my overland trip. I had long range fuel tanks fitted, total 180 litres now, I think I shall wait until Africa before filling those up to the top.
See You Next Wednesday 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

> The price differential is a fecking outrage,

No, it's really not. If you choose to live far from refineries in a thinly populated area, then you lose certain economies of scale, such as those enjoyed by an urban 12 pump station with queues to fill up.

If you think I'm wrong I trust that you will prove it by setting up in business, undercutting the local competition and taking over lots of their market share rather than whining a lot or calling me names.
 Dave Garnett 26 Mar 2012
In reply to See You Next Wednesday:

That's a really good argument for having it all nationalised as a strategic resource.
 wilkie14c 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:
My 1.6 zetec petrol is pants, 30mpg if I'm lucky as its all town driving really. A round trip to the Peak is 30 quid
However, my old man is looking for a new one so I'm having his old one at mates rates - Mondeo TDCi 50mpg combinded
 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

Running petrol stations is not a very profitable enterprise at the best of times. Running petrol stations in the middle of nowhere, and transporting the fuel in, means it will be more expensive there. I don't think there's anything outrageous about it as such, it's just a free market.

There might be a case for subsidy or reduced tax in some areas, particularly those where public transport is unavailable, but that's a different argument.

Neil
 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2012
In reply to thin bob:

"Right gear right time" is better - don't rev the nuts off it, but also don't let the engine labour. Flooring it in 5th is not a very efficient way to drive many cars at 30mph, for instance, despite what taxi drivers seem to think.

Don't know about turning your engine off - but here's another - on a descent or when slowing down don't coast. If you do, fuel is required to keep the engine idling. If you don't, the wheels turn the engine, and on modern cars (anything with an ECU pretty much) the fuel is turned off completely. (That's why you often get a bit of a jolt when it is turned back on).

Neil
 jules699 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Makes sense. My car is 2008 model so I'm sure its ok...
Anonymous 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Neil Williams and See you Next Wednesday.

Did either of you bother to read the Brian Wilson blog post?
 Ron Walker 26 Mar 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

It's a real problem in many areas of the Highlands and Islands. You need to work for at least 3-4 hours on the minimum wage to pay for the fuel just to get to your job or go shopping.... These areas have the highest fuel prices and no public transport
Anonymous 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Swig:

> Neither of those links worked for me. Are you surfin' from the USA?

Very good.

You need to remove the space between http:// and www. (Anon so can't post links.)
Sme very good points in that second article. (No doubt See You Next Wed will be able to refute them all...)
Anonymous 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

Try this one:
http: //www.brianwilsonwrites.com/?p=164

without the gap between http: and //
 Swig 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

It worked for me in the end after I googled it. Just deleted my previous post. Sounds like one supplier has the monopoly on shipping fuel there. For some reason the market has failed. Has anyone suggested a solution?
 Martin W 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Philip:
> I was under the impression diesel is the cheaper product to make, but it does depend on the type of crude.

What I have been told is that diesel is the product in higher demand. It's used for almost all heavy motive power eg large trucks, non-electrified railways, agricultural machinery etc. There is also supposed to be increasing demand for cleaner diesel from shipping lines as well (as opposed to the filthy cr@p that most ships have historically burnt simply because they could), since more and more countries want to have controls on maritime emissions within their territorial waters.

The argument is that this increased demand for diesel for all sorts of uses is going to drive retail prices up. Petrol, in comparison, doesn't have a lot of uses beyond cars and light vehicles, so that particular price driver is less likely to be a factor.

Just passing on what I've heard.
 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous:

I just read it now.

Just because Tesco[1], and say, the Royal Mail (by law), don't differentiate and take the hit, doesn't mean other businesses can or should.

Many petrol stations are privately owned or franchises, and thus don't have lucrative stores in the South East to absorb the cost, for instance.

[1] Tesco do differentiate prices, though in a different way. Tesco Express prices are sometimes marginally higher than "full" Tesco, and where they're not the same effect is achieved by not carrying any Value ranges.

Neil
 Martin W 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Anonymous: I think a key sentence in Brian Wilson's article is where he compares the price differential of Coca Cola vs fuel:

"Tesco’s profit margin in Stornoway may be a fraction lower due to transport costs but it is a tiny difference which they can well absorb."

As Neil pointed out - and as evidenced by the number of non-supermarket petrol stations closing down all over the country - profit margins on fuel are very small (in fact I'm pretty sure that a fair proportion of supermarket petrol stations operate at a loss, simply to draw customers to the shop). I think it's a safe assumption that the profit margin on Coke is much better (ie the cheap, possibly loss-making fuel is indeed acting as a loss-leader for the more profitable sugary brown fizz). So even assuming that the comparison Brian makes is actually valid, it's quite possible that the additional cost of getting a litre of fuel and a litre of Coke to Stornoway can be enough to completely wreck any kind of profit margin on the fuel, while still allowing a profit to be made on the Coke.

Bear in mind also that Tesco's pricing for Coke is transparent UK-wide - you just go to their web site and there it is. The same is not true for their fuel pricing. On that basis, it could be argued that people who buy Coke from Tescos in London are actually subsidising Tesco's Coke customers in Stornoway...

As See You Next Wednesday said, if there's profiteering going on then you, or someone, should be able to win market share from the established suppliers by offering more competitive pricing. (In fact I think that's one reason why Gleaner started to move into forecourt fuel sales.) Of course there's another problem in the Highlands and Islands, because fuel outlets tend to be much farther apart than in more urbanised areas. So even if you nearest Gleaner station is a few pence cheaper than your local Tesco, if you have to drive 30 miles to get there then the cost of the fuel you use to drive there wipes out any cost saving at the pump.
 zebidee 26 Mar 2012
In reply to See You Next Wednesday:
> (In reply to Anonymous)
>
> [...]
>
> No, it's really not. If you choose to live far from refineries in a thinly populated area, then you lose certain economies of scale, such as those enjoyed by an urban 12 pump station with queues to fill up.

How does that argument work in a high density residential area < 5 miles from the refinery and is charging 147.9p/l for diesel (Falkirk)?
 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2012
In reply to Martin W:

"I'm pretty sure that a fair proportion of supermarket petrol stations operate at a loss, simply to draw customers to the shop"

I had heard that as well. That's one reason why things like coffee and the likes, and M&S Simply Food outlets, are spreading to more petrol stations - those, unlike fuel, are very high margin.

Neil
 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2012
In reply to zebidee:

I just checked on petrolprices.com and there is at least one garage in Milton Keynes charging that.

Neil
 Fraser 26 Mar 2012
In reply to thin bob:
> ...does turning your engine off really save much?

Well, put it this way: when you're stationary, you're doing zero mpg!


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