UKC

Ok, as suggested on another thread, I am going to introduce myself to the dark art of redpointing to try to get the most of my sports climbing - up to now I have followed a strict onsight ethic

Other than I do obviously understand the idea is to pick something a grade or two harder than you can onsight and work it into submission, I would like to understand how to approach it tactically. Questions such as the following spring to mind:

- How hard a route do you aim for?
- How do you work it? All this working moves, sections, linking them up stuff
- Rests between attempts?
- Gear issues eg. recovering QD's?
- Difference in tactics for short/long sieges?
- Wall vs outside?
- How to stop your belayer going to sleep from boredom?

Rather than trial and error, it would be helpful to hear your thoughts on these issues.

Thanks in advance

In reply to JonC:

Everyone will have their own preferred approach, but personally, I'll use a clip-stick to work my way up a route putting in the draws, trying the moves and making sure I've spotted and chalked up all the holds. If the route isn't too hard, I'll then just lower off and when it's my turn to climb again, I'll try to lead it clean. If it's on the hard side, I'll try top-roping it, repeatedly practising and trying to memorise any hard sequences, identifying rests and how I'm going to make clips (and whether any would benefit from being extended, or even skipped) till I'm happy that I know what I'm doing before getting on the lead. Others will just get straight onto the lead and will work the route like that.

Getting your draws back just means dogging back up from bolt to bolt, or even clip-sticking it again if there are sections where you just can't do the moves.

Having a belayer who's working something themselves and taking turns is the best way to avoid boredom!

In reply to JonC:


Starting with failed onsights is a good start.


Preferences vary, I like to work top down, so aid and frig to near the top and work that. Then work lower sections on subsequent attempts. This way you work the top when fresh, and you the exit of the route wired best for when you're most pumped.
Don't try and work a long route in it's entirety first go.
And unless you've got a really good reason not to, always work on the lead.


A couple of minutes between moves, 20mins to 30mins between sessions.


Tramline down with a qd clipped from your belay loop to rope going up through the belay.

>

Limit goes to less than 20mins, but it's typically less time spent belaying than you would on a long trad pitch.

In reply to JonC:

You said you had done some mileage at 6b with the odd 6b+ - maybe try a 6c first off and work up from there. I was hilariously unbalanced (very poor onsighted and very specialise redpointer) at those sorts of grades so my grade difference at the time of 5-6 grades isn't something to aspire to, most people tend to settle on roundabout 3 grades or so difference between onsight and redpoint.

Treat it as a redpoint - go up bolt to bolt, sit on bolts, keep yourself fresh for each section. Anything goes to get clips in, pulling on them holding them using them as undercuts to reach the next jug or clip or whatever. Then work sequences between clips if you've had to cheat between them. Don't forget clipping positions though if you do this!

Work sections, most routes break into sections logically. Work the top most so you have it utterly wired for when you are knackered. Whether you work on toprope or lead is up to you really, personally though I've found too much working on toprope screws my lead head so I try to avoid it unless it's so hard I can't do links between certain bolts. If you do toprope, switch to lead as soon as you're comfy - being able tocomfortably lap the route on toprope is just wasted effort you could be putting into the next project.

Recover as long as you need. Hour is in no way extravagant. Retrieving quickdraws - learn to cheat between bolts, get a clipstick or find a talented partner if you are going for routes so hard gear retrieval is an issue

Tactics - know when it's time to take a break from a siege and try to improve away from the route a bit before coming back to it. Long sieges can be mentally tough, it's a grind. It should be fun after all!

Workroutes with people. The power of team eta is immense.

In reply to AJM:

Team beta even!

Thanks all - v helpful.

Any other nuggets of info out there?

In reply to JonC:

huge tip which made massive difference to me - 'lose the battle, win the war'

Essentially give up on the on-sight mentality, of climbing till absolute failure and screaming peeling off holds. Instead, as soon as I feel my strength going, i'll just fall off. But it means at the end of the day, i've probably got another couple attempts left in me and much better chance of actually climbing the route. Avoid going for broke and blown out fore-arms inless you think you've got a really good chance of completing the route.

In reply to JonC:

Route selection - if you are good at redpointing then 2 grades harder than best onsight in a session (1st redpoint attempt) is acheivable, but you'll need some time to get tactics sorted first.

Some of the most frustrating redpoint seiges I've had have been routes where I've blown the onsight. If the route is too easy then the temptation to not fully work sections and the lower level of concentration required when trying to make the final lead conspire to produce daft mistakes.

Starting with a route 2 grades harder than best onsight is good advice.



First time up : clipstick or stand in slings on the bolts (whatever it takes, basically) DON'T be put off by how hard the moves seem/look first go.

Getting to know it : toprope if not too steep. Go bolt to bolt to identify hard moves & sections, rests and possible clipping positions (but this isn't a priority yet).

Fine-tuning : Don't concentrate on individual moves. Try the route in overlapping sections (unlesss there are huge rests). Moves can be quite different when approached from the previous move, even if you think you're starting in the correct position, you probably won't be. Don't be put off by apparent difficulty of moves.

Work in depth: As someone else said, work the top more than you think you need to. Make longer links from rest to rest. Check clipping positions and quickdraw length/orientation. Draw hold-by-hold beta map and visualise the whole route (including clips) for multi-day sieges.

Action : Go for the redpoint. Be fully committed to your sequence, but be open to advice about things you might have missed from other people.


10 mins to 30 mins depending on how high you got.


For multi-day jobs it can be a good idea to put in the clips as part of your warm-up (or your only warm-up if pressed for time).
If the route is really steep or wandering then stripping the draws on toprope may be easier/safer.

As above - rushing a short siege can turn it into a long siege. Drawing maps and taking photos can help with visualisation.

Wall routes are usually a lot more obvious than outside. Go outside to work technical skills as well as physical ability.


Don't be greedy, talk to them whilst working your route and don't spend too long before letting them get on theirs.

In reply to JonC:

First of all: Don't get despondent, don't give up too easily and don't consider failure to tick something (no matter how 'easy') in a given session a failure, it's all part of the process. Remembering this, even after you've seen the process pay off takes a little doing.

Do give it a few sessions, make sure you get some reward for the work because you'll probably feel pretty silly to begin with, it feels like cheating, it's hard work and with no instant reward it's easy to dismiss it as 'tried but not for me'.

If you're still not enjoying it once it's started paying back: Do something else. Life's short, no point wasting it on something you don't enjoy.

Get a team together: Two heads are better than one when it comes to solving problems. A similar standard partner is a real asset when it comes to unlocking a stubborn crux. More people also means more attempts before you're all spent (as a team).

Pick a route that interests you (and initially at least), one just a little harder than you could reasonably expect to onsight. It has to be worth your while redpointing it and you don't want to be exhausting yourself on one big initial OS effort. Accept it as a RP project and start with that in mind. You also want to be getting your reward that day or the next, not starting a season long siege! Also, pick a safe route, one you're comfortable falling from.

Get the rope up the easiest way possible, either with a stick, bolt to bolt or in short sections. Check out the moves, clean/tick holds as required but don't tire yourself out. Make a mental note of where it's hard. If you think it'll go next try then check out the crux and rests again as you lower off. Sort the draws out for comfortable clipping as you lower past them.

Play safe, especially if the landing is bad keep the first (or 2nd) bolt pre-clipped either by pulling the rope down from above it with a stick or unclipping 2+3 as you lower off so the end drops leaving 1 clipped. It's all about the climbing not the risk.

The actual working process I start from the ground up. Rest on the rope whenever you need to. If a move is hard try it a few different ways. If it feels too hard, skip it and move on pulling on the rope or clips. I'm aiming to get to the top without too much work and to build a picture of where the hard sections are. Those I work in small pieces from the top down putting more effort into the bits where I'll be most tired. The hard moves will be starting to come together at this point though there may still be a couple of stoppers and linking it can still seem unrealistic.

When I'm ready to link it I try. If I fail then I tend to take a rest then work where I failed until it feels comfortable.

Often I find I can link maybe 2 or 3 long sections but not the whole thing. That for me is time to try something else, it'll feel easier fresh next time.

Stopper moves can often be solved top down. Get into a stable finishing position on the rope, hold it then have the rope tension released. See where you can reverse to bearing in mind you're aiming for the start position for that move. This can quickly turn up intermediate holds or moves you miss from below.

Obviously rest between goes. It's hard work at your limit you won't have many proper goes, maybe not even that many attempts at the moves, make them count. There aren't any hard and fast rules, you know your body best. Likewise make sure you're warmed up, if the dogging session to put the clips in is your warm-up then be very careful not to overdo it! Better to get a couple of steady routes in first.

Don't get too hungry, tired, cold.

jk

In reply to JonC:

The best way to manage partner boredom is to find partners who want to work on the same route as you. That way a tedious belay is turned into a team effort where the climber on the ground can suggest things/discuss beta with the person actually climbing. If it becomes a collaborative process, the time needed to actually suss the beta out and redpoint the thing is dramatically shortened.

If you are new to redpointing you may find it difficult to remember long, technical sequences at first - like anything, this improves with practice. A good redpointer should more or less be able to remember all the holds on a 30m route after one go up it, say. Practice reviewing the climbing move by move in your head after you have lowered down to the ground or while you are resting on the rope. If necessary, write the moves down, especially if you're not getting back on your project for a while. Giving holds specific names helps you remember the moves and helps discuss the moves with partners (eg. 'get the 50p as an undercut, then get your foot on the broken flake and rock up to the nubbin')

Lots of shorter dogging sessions are better than long mammoth sessions. The temptation is not to rest enough on the rope, and this combined with long sessions can lead to frustration - if you find yourself getting more and more tired and feel like you are moving backwards ('I could do this move a minute ago!), you're probably having too long goes and not resting enough. Unless the route is exceptionally long, goes longer than 30 mins become counterproductive IMHO.

Dealing with the mental side of redpointing is a whole subject in itself. It depends how you are, how ok you are with taking safe falls off difficult terrain, and how close to your limit you are operating. There is a whole associated mental game within redpointing of how wired do the moves have to be before you are prepared to get on the lead. Eg. some people will dog up the route on lead and then subsequent working goes will also be on lead, others will clipstick up or somehow get a top rope in situ and then work it before leading it. Without wanting to be dogmatic about it, I think in order to really redpoint things close to your limit (which is the point of redpointing) you realistically need to find a way of being relaxed about falling, whether that is taking falls while working routes on lead, doing dedicated practice fall sessions, whatever.

Generally I find that on a route close to my limit, once I have identified all the potential cruxes where I am likely to fall off, I need to have made my peace with the idea of falling from any of those points or regions on the route - sometimes to the extent of actually going up and deliberately taking any falls I am particularly anxious about to reassure myself that they are safe - that way it prevents any intrusive thoughts or fears popping into your head and affecting your climbing when you are actually on redpoint.

In reply to JonC:

I'll use the stick to set/clip the first one or two draws (depending on height) for safety, but after that I'll usually just dog the route taking falls rather than top roping/stick clipping, as I place a lot of value in falling regularly from hard moves. The exception to that being when I think I'm about ready to go for a ground-up ascent, I'll often run through the crux sequences again as I'm lowering off the previous climb, consolidating the important moves while they're fresh in the muscle memory. If it's a shortish UK route, and you'be been taking your time on a bolt-to-bolt, you can sometimes rest for 10 minutes at the top of the route, do the moves on the way back down and then get on for a send attempt quickly afterwards.

Once I've moved on to redpoint attempts, on a long steep spanish multi-day project, I might spend up to an hour resting between tries. I find it's easy not to eat enough when climbing hard as the effort seems to supress the appetite, so as soon as I come off one attempt is a good time to get some sugar into my system - with a long rest to come, I can top up the energy levels without worrying about feeling sluggish from eating by the time I get on the next attempt. Shorter UK routes, probably 30 minutes rest(so make sure I re-hydrate, but eat a little less).

In reply to Kemics:


The problem with that, though, is that if you don't ever go to failure then where is your body's stimulus to get stronger/fitter?

It's a tactical decision, really, I guess - I do agree with you, some of the time - but there are plenty of times when I have 'accidentally' ticked the route on the last go of the day, having set off feeling really terrible, having done everything wrong - fumbled clips, done moves wrong - and then suddenly found myself pulling through the crux.

Steve McClure is really the master of always going for one more move - on the basis that he might do one more move after that, then one after that, then one more gets him to a good rest, and then to the top.

Basically - I think you need to know when is appropriate to bail out and when to go a muerte - but also that good a muerte climbing is a skill in itself that needs practicing.

Never thought of that one - sounds like a brilliant idea!

In reply to Quiddity:

I agree - I go all out on my "onsight" attempt, and then adopt more regular redpoint tactics after that. There is no "take" until I've fallen off any given route giving it my best. It's not optimal for ticking the route quickly, as you completely blow your arms on the first go and have to take a long rest, but it does ensure I keep a good head for fighting to the bitter end.

In reply to Quiddity:

Kemics post: I read that as a tactic for bolt to bolting, in which case it makes sense not exhausting yourself before you're ready to redpoint.

The 50p - that hold repeating on you is it

A

In reply to jkarran:


I agree - I actually find that unless the route has a narrow window of send (eg fickle conditions, or short winter days), climbing as a 3 provides the best climbing:resting ratio and the easiest way of doing the route can most quickly be worked out (although everyone usually ends up personalising the sequence slightly anyway).

I think it is comparatively very difficult, or at least very time consuming, to work out the absolute easiest way of climbing a route on your own - as you are continually getting caught in blind spots and presumptions of how you think it *should* be climbed.

In reply to AJM:


Fair enough - yes I totally agree


I thought it was a really striking example - when you kept going on about 'the 50p hold' I was like, 'what is he on about?' and then I saw it and it IS obviously the 50p hold and can be called nothing else.

In reply to JonC:

What i don't understand is why people only refer to Sports routes when looking for a redpoint project.
Do people not redpoint (protectable) trad routes ever?

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

That's kinda 'ground up' I suppose, but with a lot more hanging about. In fact, how come there isn't a ground up option in the logbooks?

To the OP- stevie haston uses a hook for getting past hard moves on RP, or recovering draws.

In reply to Dave 88:

Is it? are you sure?

What, top rope practicing is 'ground up'?

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

No, that's headpointing then.

I thought you meant going up, taking falls, then finally leading it clean.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Head-pointing was the equivalent term coined for trad climbing... maybe they couldn't be seen to be accepting any advancement directly from the lowly sport world.

I'm new to the trad game, but I try to treat any (safe) route I don't manage to onsight in much the same way as I do a sport route... I say try, because fear still gets in the way of that for the moment. Hopefully after some more falling on gear I'll get a bit closer.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I've finally understood what you meant. You weren't asking what the trad term for red pointing was (which I was a bit puzzled you didn't know!) you were asking why people don't work trad routes as much as they do sport routes. Sorry, long day.

Probably just less faith in gear than bolts is the simple answer.

In reply to Dave 88:

I always thought headpointing referred to dangerous solo/poor gear trad routes - like on grit.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Oh right, I just thought it was red pointing for trad, but usually employed for the type of routes you describe, safer ones being climbed ground-up as it's considered better style. That could be completely wrong though, that's just how I understood it. Having said that, why has The Walk Of Life or Raphsody not had an attempted ground up, since they've been declared 'safe' but hard.

Thanks everyone; much clearer now. Really interesting reading about tactics.

In reply to JonC:

Loads of good advice on here, showing a range of different approaches. Some random additional/repeat observations (and they are not necessarily the right way or only way, just the way that works for me):

If your goal is to be an all rounder solid at the grade, choose a route that plays to your weaknesses. But if you want to get the tick, choose a route that suits your style.

When you get on a project and it feels wrong, just walk away and find another. If you get on a project and it feels as though it suits you but it just feels too hard, stick at it and you will be amazed at how something can go from feeling beyond you to do-able.

Climb with loads of different people to learn from them and find partners of a like mind for what you are trying to do with that particular project. If you both really like each other and get on and have similar goals, it is a fundamentally better experience and you will climb better too.

Do falling practice and keep doing it, and it needs to be specific to the particular clips and to the particular climbing partner.

Don’t be afraid to get on your project in bad conditions because when you get on it in good conditions it will feel so much easier,

Talk to each other: verbalise the moves and describe holds in a really specific way. That will help you both memorise them. Write the move by move beta down when you get home so you don’t forget. It also (a) helps you visualise and (b) realise which bits you are still unsure about.

If you are going to get trashed bolt to bolt climbing to get the clips in, I don’t see the point in that: use a clipstick. Furthermore, trashing yourself getting the clips in will make the route seem way harder than it is. Same for going for the on sight if the route is an unrealistic proposition to on sight.

Warming up on easier routes is often a mistake as you can get flash pumped trying not to fall off it. I prefer to warm up on my project clipsticking up it and re-familiarising myself with the moves but being sure not to try to perform, sitting on a bolt/the rope as soon as I feel myself starting to strain.

When working the route on top rope, after doing a few moves and resting, remember to place your hands and feet on exactly the same holds before climbing again if they were the right ones. That way you don’t get skip moves or head off on a different sequence.

Actively look for every rest and half rest that you can. You will be amazed where you can get hands free or almost so. Toe hooks are great for taking a bit of your weight, same for thumbs, elbows, forearms, sneaky knee bars, heel hooks, bum, head, anything.

Work out whether it is your left or right arm that’s going to get pumped first and then clip, rest/semi-rest and choose a sequence that leaves it most rested for when you need it most.

Don’t wait until you can do the route on top rope before getting on the lead, as the lead is a different experience with the clips, potential falls and so on, and it will feel like you have done it on top rope and so somehow you *should* be able to lead it: it’s all likely to be less fun this way and feels retrogressive. In contrast, more or less working it out on top rope or bolt to bolt and then going for the redpoint is more likely to feel positive.

Buy some belay glasses and share them with your mate! Fantastic bit of kit. Aside from saving your neck, you can both be more attentive belayers with ease and get help with beta a lot more.

When working the route on top rope especially if it is a long route, rest by clipping a daisy chain from your belay loop to the upper krab of the quickdraw. That way you can unclip the rope from the draw easily before pressing on (instead of getting pumped senseless merely trying to unclip). Also, you won’t sag down the route on rope stretch. Also, it’s a lot more considerate to your belayer who doesn’t have to take in loads of stretchy rope or hold you on the rope while you rest: that said, it is often better to rest on the rope and that is something you both do for each other as belayer. Word of caution: do not be tempted to climb up at all while clipped in with your daisy: it has zero stretch and falling from even just 18 inches above the bolt can result in you slamming into the rock dangerously hard.

If one of you is still working the route and the other is going for the redpoint (perhaps more than one attempt), the latter has priority in terms of calling the changeover. It can be frustrating if you are ready to try to redpoint and your mate takes that bit too long and you cool down too much.

Even when you think you have the beta totally sorted, be open to the possibility that it can be refined.

When on the redpoint and you mess up a section, don't give up because there is every chance that you will somehow or other sketch your way to the top.

Get the last so-called easy/easier bit dialled so you don't fall off it.

When stripping the route, if there is an awkward QD lower down, tram to it and take the lower one out before the easier higher one.

Can't remember if anyone has said this, but - always be on the lookout for easier sequences and links between sequences, particularly on routes that require endurance. The fresher you are on arrival at the crux, the better.

And I'll echo the point about not being put off by the difficulty at first. It's amazing how much easier it gets when you've got the sequence wired. And how satisfying that is!

In reply to Dave 88:


Walk of Life is 8a/+ so onsightable by many if it really was safe. However the start is hard and hard to protect. The rest of the route requires specialist gear in obscure placements: Charlie Woodburn used multiple ball-nuts including one specially filed-down, Dave MacLeod drove back to Bristol (round trip 4 hours) to buy a pecker piton to hand-place. This suggests the route not bomber Rock 6 every 10' kind of safe.

Rhapsody is 8c/+ and no trad. climber is close to onsighting at that level (yet). The only people who are onsighting at that level don't climb trad. (yet). However, the gear is good, straightforward, and the fall is long but clean.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rhapsody was onsighted before WoL. In the not distant future, folk will be onsighting 8c/+ every weekend. When Ondra takes up trad. climbing (which he will, he's on record as wanting to go to Yosemite) he'd be capable of onsighting Rhapsody and there is a slight chance he might be interested in doing so. I am sure he wouldn't be remotely interested in WoL. This begs the question: is WoL really two grades easier?

In reply to JonC:
I haven't read all the other posts but generally my advice is as follows.

Get to the crag, first warm up by doing something maybe a grade below your onsight limit, if available. If you start to get pumped, sit on a bolt. If there is nothign easy enough for that (common enough at sport crags), then warm up by bolt-to-bolting the easiest route there.

Pick your route (I would suggest a 6c to start with - it would be too big a mental step to go from onsighting all the time to suddenly sieging something really hard over several days) and climb to the first bolt. Clip it and shout tight* (whether or not you are remotely pumped). Look at the rock ahead and work out the moves in your head. Pick out all the footholds. Pull on and try them out, if possible climb to the next bolt. Clip it, shout tight and repeat (make sure you are clipping from somewhere that would be possible when pumped, and remember the position). Do this all the way to the top. On harder sections, after clipping the bolt above them, get your belayer to lower you back down the the last bolt and do it again on top rope, refining your sequence. Also do your best to pick out the best recovery points on the route. Then lower off, leaving your draws in. Rest at least 30 minutes while your partner does something, sit around for a bit if necessary. Stand below the route, looking up at it and re-do every move in your head. You should be able to do this easily for the harder sections, if not then you didn't pay enough attention to what you were doing. For the less difficult bits, you don't need to remember it so well for a quick red-point like this. Then tie on and go for it - at this grade, if working it well, I'd expect somewhere of your standard to tick it first go, or second go if you just got something wrong as will always happen sometimes (unless it has a particularly nasty crux or clip or something, in which case pick a different route).

* don't do this if the first few bolts are obviously easy ground or your belayer might think youre a prat

Your belayer should otherwise be fine as long as you are willing to reciprocate. After all, even the working go will take significantly less time than the average trad onsight, and the redpoint will be over in a flash. And even if they just want to onsight, they can still do that as long as there are routes at the crag for them.

If you were trying a route that was a bit further from your onsight limit (say 6c+ or 7a) then extra things to do, depending on the route and your preferences, may include:
- top-roping it once first to give yourself confidence that you can actually do the moves (particularly if youre a bit of a wimp like me and there are any hard moves significantly above bolts). This doesn't properly replace a bolt-to-bolt though.
- doing 'links' before going for the redpoint - eg working up to it by first tryign to link the first part of the route (eg up to a rest, obvious jug, or just before/after the crux) and the rest of it in two parts, in order to then give you the confidence to have a crack at the whole thing.
- thinking harder about improving your sequence on every single section - even the easier bits - to be more efficient and save energy. Also thinking about things like clipping positions more.

Other tips:
- As soon as possible pick a good crag with good routes. There is nothing more demoralising about sport climbing than feeling as if it involves nothing but shitty quarries. In the Peak, Cheedale is brilliant and starts at about 6c, there is loads at 7a.
- If you don't like falling off, it is much easier to do on something that is overhanging - so if possible pick something steep.
- Stick with it if you find the first few goes frustrating. Dont let failure on your first couple of redpoint attempts put you off. The feeling when you get up it clean will be great

In reply to Si dH:
Oh, one final piece of advice. Dont worry about having the first bolt pre-clipped on your redpoint attempt - its meant to be safe. And use a clip-stick if you have one. On some harder redpoint attempts you might see soem people carryign a clip stick all the way up on their bolt to bolt attempt so they can top rope the whole thing without needing someone to put a rope up.

In reply to flaneur:

I only base TWOL being safe on Dave Mac saying that he found over 50 placements on it. Some of them must be good!

Can Steve McLure on sight 8c+? If so I'm surprised he didn't give it a bash. Quite scary to think that people may soon be on sighting E11!

Anyway, we digress. Sorry for the thread hijack.

I've never understood top roping as a redpoint strategy (for sports routes - for bold scary trad routes it's a valid approach). Probably because the people I've seen successfully top roping sport routes above their lead limit seem to always put off leading them (probably due to a fear of falling).

Stick clipping the first or second bolts to avoid ground falls, and then working the moves on lead works better for me - I end up taking lead falls this way and minimise the fear of falling.

I also find protracted sieges boring. Usually, I'll warm up, then try something hard for me (F6c+ to F7a+). Occasionally managed to tick in on the second or third go. If not, I'll add it to the project list, and drop back to easier routes for the remainder of the day. I've built up a big list of climbs to do at several different crags this way. When I make it back to the same crag (usually after a month or so), I'll try one of the routes on my project list, usually ticking them.

I'm sure some people would prefer to focus on fewer projects, and return to the same crag ASAP if they don't get their project done in the first session. Lots of different projects at different crags works for me though - keeps climbing fun and exciting.

In reply to Dave 88:



McLure has onsighted 8b+ (One? Two?). I'd want to be having a 'good' success rate onsighting similar style 8c/+ before before having a shot at Rhapsody.

Since we're dealing with a route which, by several accounts, is a bit eliminate, we're probably talking about a flash rather than onsight. Pearson came very close to flashing E10 recently, a similar style route, scary but essentially safe. So I think we'll be seeing this kind of E11 flashed and probably onsighted within a generation.

In reply to flaneur:

I missed that. What was it, Muy Caliente?

Personally I like toproping for redpoint practice. It's all about the climbing not the fear. I get enough fear when trad climbing thanks very much

In reply to turtlespit:

People need to be honest with themselves: if they are top roping due to fear of falling, they need to sort out their fear of falling. I use top roping of sport routes for energy saving to work out moves but get on the lead ASAP once I have a reasonable idea of the moves (not totally wired).

(But, clearly as others have said, they prefer to work on the lead, and your mileage may vary!)

...so that may really come across as me failing to address a fear of falling, and maybe it is, but then I like to draw a line between different activities on different days (I do practice falling, even on trad at times).

In reply to Stone Muppet:

That's totally cool. If your enjoyment is greater with less falling but less redpoint success (takes longer for the tick or the tick is a lower grade), then that has to be fine - it's your call. I have made a similar same call with trad: I enjoy my trad more with a big margin of power and stamina. It limits my grade but that's fine by me.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Some relevant comments from Pete Robins here:
http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/pete-robins-on-hard-redpoint-climbing/
"The big joke is that most trad routes, even E9’s and E10’s, are easy, compared with hard sport routes. Even the bold ones, once you’ve thought about the logistics a bit, most of them end up being safe as well. So, except for a few McLeod horrors, head-pointing is just easy red-pointing. On-sighting hard/scary trad routes, however, is desperate, and I’m not claiming to be much good at it, compared with people like James McHaffie. However, even that’s not to difficult, once you set off, because you’ll either do it quite easily, or back off. The hard bit is choosing to set off in the first place. Red-pointing is completely different, but stressful nevertheless. I am stubborn and patient, and experienced on red-pointing, so I know it will always happen in the end."

In reply to JonC: Surprised someone has not already said this:
- Work the moves
- Work the clips
- Work the rests

The second two are just as important as the first one but are often overlooked. Steve McClure is a master of finding and extracting the most from any rest or shake-out position.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

All three mentioned (and I discussed rests in particular), but you're right that clips and rests need to be emphasised more than they have been.

In reply to Stone Muppet:

Your choice of course but with a few months of practice, leading and falling on sport routes can become all about the climbing not the fear. Was a huge breakthrough for me when I put developing a strong falling head above all other considerations in my training.

In reply to JonC:

one of the best topics I've read here in a long time - loads of valuable advice. Thanks everyone!

In reply to ericinbristol:

I read the whole of that article, it was really interesting and useful. Cheers for that.

In reply to Dave 88:

Yes, excellent piece because it is not mainly about physical training. The key things I got from it were:
- Really wanting to do the route is the key
- Being inspired by a great route helps
- Give it everything when you are at the crag and rest enough when you are not so that you don’t arrive at the crag tired (or injured!)
- Eating normally and cutting back a little bit only in the run-up to a hard redpoint
- Working all of the route so that the easy bits go from being easy to being nothing
- Bouldering to get used to doing hard moves and realising what you can do
- Enjoy the process, so being at the crag with good mates is vital
- “You only really try hard on red-point, and it gives you a good feeling for how moves will turn out in-succession. Sometimes, I end up doing strange inventive moves in extremis, which I wouldn’t have thought of on the dog because my body position is slightly different, or something.”
- “I’ll generally combine a few ‘proper’ goes with bouldering out moves and working easier sections when I get more tired.”
- “Think laterally about ropework, clipping positions, rests, chalking zones, etc, as well. This is the really sneaky stuff that can make a difference.”
- “Its also quite easy to slip into complacency about goes on a long siege, especially at your local crag; if you start thinking that you’ve always got another go, you might get used to failing. This is a common and nasty problem that is hard to snap out of, because you really want the route, but what you probably need to do is take a break”.

I would add something that's standard for boulderers but I don't recall being mentioned in the thread yet, and that's: clean the holds.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I agree that it is a really good article. Well worth a read for anyone who fancies themselves a sport climber. I thought it was really interesting to see someone talking about the psychology of the climbing day itself.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Yeah it was brilliant. Such a refreshing take on the usual top climbers "live and breathe climbing, train till your arms fall off and do not compromise" approach. Seems like he's found the joy in the process as well as the eventual route.

Really cool that he said he could climb harder, but just had other stuff he wanted to do instead. Seems like a very content bloke.