UKC

As the Severe routes thread seems to have been infected by a rash of HS suggestions perhaps they deserve a thread of their own. In my experience there are many more memorable routes at HS than S.
Some I have done that I rate highly are:

Doorpost (Bosigran)
Right Angle (Gurnard's Head)
Pegasus (Chair Ladder)
Terrier's Tooth (Chair Ladder)
Central Groove (Dewerstone)
Wall Street (Cormorant Ledge)
Temporary Lifestyle (Portland, DWS)
Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay)
Zelda (Wintour's Leap)
Main Wall (Cyrn Las)
White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner (Craig Yr Wrysgan)
Jingling Wall (Clogwyn Cyrau)
Jeffcoat's Buttress (Roaches Upper Tier)

I suspect the following routes I haven't done are shoe ins:

Tophet Wall (Napes)
Napes Needle (Napes)
Christmas Curry, Micah Finish (Bwlch Y Moch)
Craig Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell)
Diedre Sud (Mowing Word)
Integrity (Sron Na Ciche)

What else would you add to this list?

In reply to The Ivanator:
I thought Napes Needle was pretty rubbish to be honest. Polished to a mirror finish and very short.

In reply to The Ivanator:
A few I forgot:

Manx Wall (Glyder Fawr)
The Devil's Slide (Lundy)
Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas)
Direct Route (Glyder Fach)

In reply to speekingleesh: I suspect it is one of those routes where the history (and position) far outweigh the quality of the climbing.

In reply to The Ivanator: sea mist - pembroke

In reply to The Ivanator:
Yeah of course, though I probably wasn't in that good a frame of mind as 20 mins earlier I had just had a large block come off Trophet Wall as I was climbing it...

In reply to The Ivanator:

I thought Green Gut at Froggatt was a corker, but it seems to have gained a reputation as a punters route while I wasn't looking.

Brown's Crack (no, not that Brown) at Bamford. Mild and well-protected but delightful jamming.

Sea Mist at Saddle Head.

I'd heard a lot of good things about Diedre Sud. Found it so-so.

Is this going to turn into another of your 100 Greatest series?

Oh, and the ones I haven't done but suspect are good.

Myola, Stennis Head
Tennis Shoe, Idwal Slabs
Ardus, Shepherds (assuming you're not going to list the 100 best MVSs!)
Fairy Steps, Hepstonstall

In reply to The Ivanator:

The only gritstone route you could possibly choose as the best gritstone HS is Route 1 at Wimberry.

And since that's now decided I'll let you continue to debate the non-gritstone ones...

In reply to The Ivanator: Is this going to turn into another of your 100 best?
While agreeing with many of your choices here are some more:
Hopkinson's Crack Dow
Dives/Better Things
Upper Tor Wall
Brown's Crack Bamford
Main Wall Crag Lough
Central Crack Glen Clova
Rib & Slab Pillar
Direct Route Glyder Fach
Three Tree Route
Butterknife
Vertical Crack Sennen
Demo Route
Deception Crack Kyloe
Hailstone Crack
Cave Route Huntly's
Moonshine Attermire
Flannel Avenue
The Ring Paviland
Honister Wall
Mermaid's Ridge
Bower's Route

and here's one for the "best unstarred" : Depression Direct, Craig y Clipiau

Makes you smile just thinking of them all! And makes you envy all those punters just starting out who, even if they never get to be good climbers, have all this to look forward to. Hey ho!

In reply to Richard Alderton:

Aye, I thought Tennis Shoe was a great route, soft at the grade, though.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

A lot of those are on my to-do list I don't know how I can have forgotten the ones in the County.

Three Tree Route wouldn't make the final cut for me. Too disjointed.

In reply to Calder:

Parson's Chimney at Almscliff is better.

So is The Sizzler at Horsehold Scout (VS in the current guide but will be corrected in the new edition).

In reply to Richard Alderton:

I feel I should be working up the grades with my ticklists rather than backwards, but as Rog Wilko pointed out some of the Classic HS routes suggested do bring good memories. For me it is the grade that is just hard enough to feel interesting, but easy enough that there is not much in the way of "Arrgh, I'm getting pumped ...watch me here" stress. It is a great grade when you want a mellow day on rock.
I'm sure there is enough quality to at least justify a top 50. Keep the suggestions coming!

In reply to Styx: I found Tennis Shoe something of a disappointment, but think my expectations were too high. It is certainly a good route, like you say soft at the grade, with rather an unpleasant degree of polish on the crux tower pitch at the top.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Yup, I'd agree that parts of it are past its best but I thought the middle pitches were enjoyable and in a great setting (on a quiet day, at least). A classic route but not 'the' best HS.

In reply to The Ivanator:

of those that i've done...
The Mermaid's Ridge - kinder
Main Wall - Cyrn Las
Central Groove - Dewerstone
Tophet Wall - Napes
Napes Needle - Napes for the situation rather than the climbing
Christmas Curry, Micah Finish - Bwlch Y Moch need to do this again as can't remember much about it anymore
Craig Dhu Wall - Craig Y Castell - ace traverse!
Diedre Sud - Mowing Word need to lead/solo
The Cracks - Dinas Mot
Doorpost - Bosigran
Upper Tor Wall - kinder
Route 1 - wimberry
Parson's Chimney - almscliff
Direct Route - Glyder Fach


Demo Route - completely overrated/hyped

In reply to Toreador:

Are you seriously, in your heart of hearts, trying to suggest that any route at Horsehold Scout is even a tiny bit as good as Parson's Chimney, let alone things like Tophet Wall? Honestly?

In reply to The Ivanator: Another vote for Sea Mist at Saddle head

In reply to The Ivanator:

I'd definitely put Integrity on Sron Na Ciche on the shortlist along with Doorpost at Bosi. Both great routes regardless of grade.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Crag Logh has some fine 1 pitch severes: Hadrians Buttress and Hadrians Chimney ...and then some class MVS's!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=41871

The Night Watch at Whitestone was HS when I first did it ..

CJ.

In reply to The Ivanator:

I'd add Upper Tor Wall at Kinder South - better than Mermaid Ridge on the same hill.
I'd also rate the Revelation/Centipede combination on Raven Crag, Langdale.
People who know more than me say Tophet Wall is the best HS in the Lakes, not done it myself though.

In reply to The Ivanator: By far and a way the wildest HS I ever climbed was Gates of Eden which now,sadly, rests with Neptune.

Christmas Crack, Dental Slab and Shangri La at Baggy need to be mentioned

In reply to alan moore:

A shame about Gates, Dental Slab and Shangri La are surely just Severe though - now this thread is suffering from an inversion of the problem that got it started!
Is Christmas Crack the best of the Stanage HS's? Better than Manchester Buttress and April Crack? Just asking as I have unforgivably not yet climbed at Stanage!

In reply to The Ivanator:
I was just reading through North Wales Rock and notied that Pinnacle Wall, whcih was S 4a when I did it with the PW guide, now gets HS 4b. If so it should definitely be in there. Its the top two pitches of the combination with Mur y Niwl.
I've done a few of those on your list and they were all great, I especially loved Right Angle, but the top pitch of Pinnacle Wall is better. It's just so exposed.
I agree there are loads of brilliant HSs.

In reply to The Ivanator:


I preferred April Crack and RHRHBD but it's much of a muchness, they are all great.

In reply to The Ivanator:

North of the border, add Commando Crack (Coire a'Ghrunnda), Nirvana Wall (Aonach Dubh), The Weight (Fulmar Wall), Open Secret (Stone Valley), Central Crack (Glen Clova). Also Tall Pall at Sheigra if you believe Gary Latter's upgrade.

Ardverikie Wall gets HS but in my opinion it isnt, whereas Eagle Ridge doesn't and probably is!

In reply to The Ivanator: Prolapse @ Mont Herault, Guernsey

In reply to The Ivanator:
For sure there are some great routes at HS out there. Some of my faves are Doorpost, Creag Dhu Wall, Christmas Curry, Main Wall, Box of Delights at Vicarage, Shark Crack at Sheigra and Kernyk. But the best by far (for me) for climbing rock and amazing position has to be Integrity at Sron na Ciche.

In reply to MattG:

Whilst many will undoubtedly sneer, I agree that revelation at raven is one of the best HS's I've done in the Lakes. Excellent climbing. I don't agree about Centipede though which I thought was disappointing.

In reply to The Ivanator: my favourite would be Great Slab at Millstone

In reply to The Ivanator: Thanks for all the contributions so far.
Think I'm aiming for a top 50. These 33 seem pretty firm choices, many of the other routes mentioned are also in the mix for the 17 spaces remaining, some routes with contentious grades have been left out. Sure there are still a few unmentioned gems too.

South West:
1. Doorpost (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=845
2. Right Angle (Gurnard's Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28738
3. Flannel Avenue (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1989
4. Demo Route (Sennen) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30513
5. Central Groove (The Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26065
6. Wall Street (Cormorant Ledge) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=25928
7. The Devil's Slide (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31090
South Wales:
1. Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24548
2. Sea Mist (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24629
3. Diedre Sud (Mowing Word) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24949
North Wales:
1. Main Wall (Cyrn Las) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28749
2. Dives/Better Things (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3182
3. Direct Route (Glyder Fach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85392
4. Manx Wall (Clogwyn Du Ymhen Y Glyder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=35656
5. Christmas Curry/Micah Finish (Craig Bwlch Y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2489
6. Creag Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2736
Peak District:
1. Brown’s Crack (Bamford) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9754
2. Upper Tor Wall (Kinder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16819
3. Route 1 (Wimberry) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16212
Lake District
1. Tophet Wall (The Napes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8209
2. Hopkinson’s Crack (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3394
3. Rib and Slab Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6373
Yorkshire and Northumberland:
1. Parson’s Chimney (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=54
2. Moonshine (Attermire Scar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12842
3. Main Wall (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33536
4. Deception Crack (Kyloe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31289
Scotland:
1. Cave Route (Huntley’s Cave) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38202
2. Integrity (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7741
3. Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=670
4. Shark Crack (Sheigra) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50581
5. The Weight (Fulmar Wall) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31964
6. Central Crack (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=90104
7. Open Secret (Stone Valley Crags) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38415

In reply to The Ivanator:

Integrity and Ardverikie Wall - amazing routes!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Another vote for Doorpost as No1 overall

Whilst Devil's Slide is an interesting climb, I wouldn't include it in the list because I don't think it rates a HS grade. Most of it is barely Diff or V Diff, apart from the final pitch which might just rate Severe.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Yes Odyssey is possibly even better, but that's a tough VS 5a.


Certainly not - I was talking about grit. Tophet Wall and Main Wall eclipse anything on grit.

In reply to Trangia: Doorpost is good, but not even the best HS in West Penwith in my opinion. Right Angle is just a far more mind blowing experience.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I thought Hadrian's Buttress (S) was much harder than any of the MVSs I've done there

In reply to The Ivanator:

Not done it - so thanks for the recommendation!

In reply to The Ivanator: In t'Peak, Norse Corner Climb @ Stanage High Neb for me. http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9985

In reply to The Ivanator: Personally I prefer Doorpost. It's 3 high quality pitches from bottom to top, it doesn't involve a convoluted traverse/descent to reach it and it's less affected by dampness. I'll grant you however that it probably does provide a more mind blowing experience.

Al

In reply to Trangia:

You're in for a treat, make sure the sea is not too lively!

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

The rock and moves are exquisite on Doorpost, but I guess my preference is for the adventure and exposure of Right Angle. Totally contrasting routes and both amazing!
The partner I climbed both routes with certainly would be in your camp. There are not many HS's that look more intimidating than Right Angle though, it looks like solid E grade territory and I find the convoluted route is part of its charm ...not to mention the drenching I got approaching the belay at the end of the downclimb, memorable!

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I thought the "convoluted" traverse was the best bit!

In reply to Si dH:

Whereas I prefer Christmas Crack to April Crack.

RHRHBD was only HVD when I did it.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Gratifying to see RA getting a mention in your list. It’s evolution as a route might be of passing interest.

In 1966 I was unemployed, broke and staying at The Count House as a strictly unofficial assistant custodian. This was the swansong year for the Biven/Peck team: being young, reasonably fit and ambitious, I had repeated virtually all their routes at Bosigran, some of them solo, so was looking for a crag free from their long shadow.

One wet May afternoon, after a lengthy session in the Gurnard’s Head I decided to return home via the coastal path. There was a full Atlantic gale blowing and the foam was flying over the “neck” of the promontory. I could hear the waves thundering below so stuck my head over the top for a closer look. What I saw was a steep, dripping corner disappearing into the spray. It was one of those eureka moments that can happen in climbing. Here was the new extreme that would eclipse anything that had gone before on the coast!

As soon as the weather improved, I returned with John Gerber (not Bember as in the guides) a Harrison’s climber who had never been near a sea cliff before, a peg extracted from the first stance of Doorpost (no less) and a claw hammer nicked from the custodian’s store. The traverse went surprisingly easily although John was not impressed by the wave that caught him just as he was making the balancy move across to the stance. The rest, as they say is history, but my first reaction on getting to the top was one of disappointment: where was my extreme to end all extremes? Who would ever bother with a mere Severe albeit in dramatic surroundings?

Nearly half a century later, the route is still a must whenever I’m in West Penwith, in fact on the 40th anniversary we managed more than 30 separate ascents with climbers from the age of 6 up to 70+. (I made it up to the 40 with half a dozen solo circuits!)

In reply to The Ivanator:

Fairy Steps at Heptonstall is a consideration (as mentioned above by somebody) - great exposure at the grade for an outcrop route on the top arete.

Manchester Buttress is very good also.

I love the County but is Deception Crack really top 50 material? If Flake Crack wasn't Severe I'd argue for that as a replacement.

Right Angle knocks Doorpost and Central Groove into a cocked hat, but of course they are all worth including.

In reply to Iain Peters: Fantastic story, thanks for sharing that. Think I got hit by a large wave at exactly the same point as your partner John. I reckon Right Angle makes the top 5 HS routes, never mind the top 50!

In reply to The Ivanator:
Here are a couple of outsiders for the remaining slots:
Nasal Buttress
Route 2 (Raven Crag Walthwaite)
Central Route Bowfell Buttress (but only a handful of people on UKC have done it, and consensus seems to be it's really VS)
Anarchist (bit scruffy but a real adventure)

Here are some that have been mentioned, worth reconsidering I think:
Butterknife
Zelda
Hailstone Crack
White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner

If it comes down to the one best, I'm torn between Main Wall Cyrn Las and Tophet Wall because I always have a preference for the big mountain crag.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
The Talisman in Choire Etchachan,is supposedly a real classic,a long walk for a 'non' Aberdonian easy enough climbing, a strenous crux move or two, then more easy stuff.
Great remote location though.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Another vote for:
Butterknife (Garbh Bheinn)
Cave Route (Huntly's)

M

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

And I also second Central Groove at Dewarstone

M

In reply to Rog Wilko: Hi Rog, Think Zelda will make the cut. Butterknife gets VS in at least one recent guide (and is in my VS list). I loved White Streak/Honeysuckle although it doesn't seem to get that high a rating in the UKC voting (possibly because it is not listed as a single route), certainly still considering including that one.
Will look again at Hailstone Crack.
Main Wall is awesome and I'm looking forward to Tophet and Integrity which I suspect are also the creme de la creme.
Ivan

In reply to dek:

That does look a worthy inclusion.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Much lesser known:
Leac Glas; Meall Meadhoin
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33790
Easily on parr with Open Secret at Stone Vally (4* in Scot Rock Vol 1)

if there is room I'd sneak in Nirvana Wall too
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38236

In reply to The Ivanator:

I'm with you - Right Angle, as an all round climbing experience at HS, is an essential for anyone.

I'm also going to mention Route 1 at Wimberry again, because it's sooooo much better than some of the other gritstone routes being suggested.

In reply to The Ivanator:

The following are better than anything I've done in the UK:

Johnny Vegas, Going Nuts, Solar Slab combo Red Rocks, Red Rocks NV
Right On, Saddle Rocks, Joshua Tree, CA
Mathes Crest, Tuolumne, CA

My favorite UK route is Adverkie Wall followed by Main Wall, Cyn Las

In reply to daWalt:

Looks like another slot has been booked.

In reply to Offwidth: Yeah, but when I referred to the Universe in the thread title I actually just meant the UK!
Going global is a whole different list.

In reply to daWalt:

I really enjoyed that one, and keep meaning to go back for some more

In reply to Iain Peters:

Excellent story about the history of one of my favourite West Penwith climbs!
Cheers Dave
PS promise to base jump off the top Terriers Tooth next time I'm on the route...

I forgot about that one! It's excellent and certainly a contender for best HS in the UK,

M

In reply to EddieC:


I tend to agree with you about Deception Crack. Flake Crack would be HS anywhere else! College Grooves at Henhole might be a contender.

In reply to The Ivanator: Anyone got any thoughts on the inclusion of Temporary Lifestyle at Cave Hole, Portland? I thought it was a memorable little outing and it would bring another genre of climbing to the list (DWS). It scores pretty highly on the UKC voting too.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=13911

In reply to BALD EAGLE:

...and may you be carried off to Tir Nan Og by the Mermaid of Zennor or a basking shark: of course you can still get the points by jumping off the top of RA.

Can we have Wreckers' Slab on the list please? Yes, I know it's VS in all the guides, but in Littlejohn's original SW Climbs it was HS, and I up-graded it for the '88 guide, because it was still fairly loose. However, time has treated it well, and the short dodgy section is well protected. Patey et al graded it VS because they took a much more serious central line up the main slab, but unless there is total outcry I intend to put it back to HS in the next definitive. Let's have some reverse grade creep for a change!

In reply to The Ivanator:
Don't think any of these have been mentioned yet

Metamorphosis - Carreg y Barcud
Mutiny Crack - Burbage North
Technical Slab - Roaches (though best done with the Neb finish, which is bold VS)
Route 2 - Raven Crag, Walthwaite, Langdale
Horsemans Route - Lundy

In reply to The Ivanator:

Guys could we get this thread back on track please, it is way not gritcentric enough for UKC.

Josephine at Ilkley quarry is surely the UK's best HS?

In reply to Iain Peters: I tend to agree HS feels more like the right grade for Wreckers, and it would certaily merit a slot if it became established at that grade. It currently sits on my VS list (along with a couple of good examples of reverse grade creep - Lost Horizon and Armorican, so that phenomenon is not unknown).

In reply to Removed User:

Ooh, good shout. It's gotta be better than Technical Slab (suggested just prior to your post) on the basis that it's not in Classic Rock, no?

In reply to daWalt:

That's the great thing about these threads - I'd not seen either of these routes and they're now on my to-do list. Thanks.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
Leac Glas, Open Secret and Nirvana Wall are all very pleasant 2 start experiences.

In reply to The Ivanator: OK, here's a first draft of a Top 50, suggestions welcomed for ins and outs.

South West:
1. Doorpost (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=845
2. Right Angle (Gurnard's Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28738
3. Flannel Avenue (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1989
4. Demo Route (Sennen) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30513
5. Central Groove (The Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26065
6. Wall Street (Cormorant Ledge) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=25928
7. The Devil's Slide (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31090
8. Zelda (Wintour’s Leap) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32252
9. Temporary Lifestyle (Cave Hole) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=13911
South Wales:
1. Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24548
2. Sea Mist (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24629
3. Diedre Sud (Mowing Word) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24949
4. Metamorphosis (Carreg y Barcud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26095
5. Myola (Stuntsman’s Buttress) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=157115
North Wales:
1. Main Wall (Cyrn Las) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28749
2. Dives/Better Things (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3182
3. Direct Route (Glyder Fach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85392
4. Manx Wall (Clogwyn Du Ymhen Y Glyder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=35656
5. Christmas Curry/Micah Finish (Craig Bwlch Y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2489
6. Creag Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2736
7. White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner (Craig Yr Wrysgan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=73584 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=73585
8. The Cracks (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3254
9. Jingling Wall (Clogwyn Cyrau) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=61702
Peak District:
1. Brown’s Crack (Bamford) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9754
2. Upper Tor Wall (Kinder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16819
3. Route 1 (Wimberry) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16212
4. Christmas Crack (Stanage Popular) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10344
5. Technical Slab (Roaches Upper) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=20095
6. Mutiny Crack (Burbage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10508
7. Nasal Buttress (Dovestones) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16500
Lake District
1. Tophet Wall (The Napes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8209
2. Hopkinson’s Crack (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3394
3. Rib and Slab Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6373
4. Revelation (Raven Crag, Langdale) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6687
Yorkshire and Northumberland:
1. Parson’s Chimney (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=54
2. Moonshine (Attermire Scar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12842
3. Main Wall (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33536
4. Josephine (Ilkley) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28242
5. Fairy Steps (Heptonstall) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28484
Scotland:
1. Cave Route (Huntley’s Cave) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38202
2. Integrity (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7741
3. Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=670
4. Shark Crack (Sheigra) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50581
5. The Weight (Fulmar Wall) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31964
6. Central Crack (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=90104
7. Open Secret (Stone Valley Crags) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38415
8. Nirvana Wall (Aonach Dubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38236
9. Leac Glas (Meall Meadhoin) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33790
10. The Talisman (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2953
Channel Islands
1. Hailstone Crack (Beauport, Jersey) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55735

In reply to The Ivanator:

Golden Fleece

S Yat.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Fairy Steps at Heppy; no way. A couple of pleasantly exposed moves at the end of a load of unremarkable rambling doesn't warrant a place on the same list as Parson's Chimney, let alone Tophet Wall. A similar (but much better) route would be Epitaph at Baildon but I'm not even sure that deserves to be counted amongst the best 50 at the grade.

In reply to The Ivanator: Much as I like Revelation (have done it many times) I find Route 2 at the other Raven Crag to be superior (also done many times!)
Not really sure about Sea Mist or Technical slab in such elevated company. Doesn't Tech Slab join and finish up Pedestal Route? I barely remember Sea Mist, but maybe that's the Alzheimer's setting in.

Part of the trouble with a list like this is that you are really trying to compare apples and pears. Single pitch outcrop climbs are difficult to compare with multi-pitch mountain routes. I think the former, though often very intense experiences (Moonshine, for example) are always going to look less significant by comparison. Also one person making the judgement will have had a very different experience from another - often if something was done in doubtful weather, or if something went very wrong the feeling about the route could be very different eg memorable because you hated it or memorable because you were tested and came through in the end.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I think the other problem is trying to contrive a geographical 'spread' which means that substandard routes from some areas (Fairy Steps springs to mind again) get a look in when they don't really deserve it. Personally I don't think Yorkshire is all that good at that grade - I'd rather see more routes from North Wales or the South West if they were genuinely more enjoyable.

In reply to The Ivanator:

This list looks like it's really homing in on the real quality. Some minor opinions of my own:
Not sure that Demo Route deserves such a high position.
In the Peak: Technical Slab with Neb Finish (still on HS) is a better route than Christmas Crack
Mutiny Crack is fun, but Nasal Buttress is arguably more of a 'route'.
N Wales and Lakes are looking spot on
Not qualified at all to speak on Yorks and Scotland.

In reply to The Ivanator:

I might add a couple to your SW list:

Pegasus at Chair Ladder and Autumn Flakes at Bosigran. Perhaps not uber classics but both provide great entertainment in a fine position.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Great list. It probably needs more scottish stuff and less grit. Anyway my contribution individually (dunno means Ive not done it and don't know enough:

South West:
1. Doorpost (Bosigran) yep
2. Right Angle (Gurnard's Head) yep
3. Flannel Avenue (Chair Ladder) yep
4. Demo Route (Sennen) maybe
5. Central Groove (The Dewerstone) dunno
6. Wall Street (Cormorant Ledge) dunno
7. The Devil's Slide (Lundy) yep
8. Zelda (Wintour’s Leap) dunno
9. Temporary Lifestyle (Cave Hole) dunno

South Wales:
1. Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay) maybe
2. Sea Mist (Saddle Head) maybe
3. Diedre Sud (Mowing Word) yep
4. Metamorphosis (Carreg y Barcud) dunno
5. Myola (Stuntsman’s Buttress) dunno

North Wales:
1. Main Wall (Cyrn Las) yep
2. Dives/Better Things (Dinas Cromlech) yep
3. Direct Route (Glyder Fach) yep
4. Manx Wall (Clogwyn Du Ymhen Y Glyder) yep
5. Christmas Curry/Micah Finish (Craig Bwlch Y Moch) no
6. Creag Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell) yep
7. White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner (Craig Yr Wrysgan) dunno
8. The Cracks (Dinas Mot) yep
9. Jingling Wall (Clogwyn Cyrau) dunno

Peak District:
1. Brown’s Crack (Bamford) maybe
2. Upper Tor Wall (Kinder) yep
3. Route 1 (Wimberry) yep
4. Christmas Crack (Stanage Popular) yep
5. Technical Slab (Roaches Upper) maybe yep with neb finish
6. Mutiny Crack (Burbage) no
7. Nasal Buttress (Dovestones) yep

Lake District
1. Tophet Wall (The Napes) yep
2. Hopkinson’s Crack (Dow) dunno
3. Rib and Slab Climb (Pillar) yep
4. Revelation (Raven Crag, Langdale) yep

Yorkshire and Northumberland:
1. Parson’s Chimney (Almscliff) yep
2. Moonshine (Attermire Scar) dunno
3. Main Wall (Crag Lough) dunno
4. Deception Crack (Kyloe) dunno
5. Josephine (Ilkley) maybe
5. Fairy Steps (Heptonstall) no

Scotland:
1. Cave Route (Huntley’s Cave) dunno
2. Integrity (Sron na Ciche) yep
3. Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas) yep
4. Shark Crack (Sheigra) dunno
5. The Weight (Fulmar Wall) dunno
6. Central Crack (Glen Clova) dunno
7. Open Secret (Stone Valley Crags) dunno
8. Nirvana Wall (Aonach Dubh) maybe
9. Leac Glas (Meall Meadhoin) dunno
10. The Talisman (Creag a'choire Etchachan) yep
11 Clachaig Gully (NOT severe its HS!) yep

Channel Islands
1. Hailstone Crack (Beauport, Jersey) dunno

In reply to Offwidth: Your missing Stepping Out at Latheronwheel off Scotland. The few people who have done it will agree it's one of the best single pitch HS anywhere. Ignore the UKC logbook grading it severe, it's HS.

In reply to Steve Perry: This looks an amazing place and route. Most of the UKC voting does seem to go along with the S grade though.
Seems to me that Fairy Steps and maybe Mutiny Grack should be replaced.
College Grooves at Henhole looks like one potential "in" http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=67040

In reply to The Ivanator:

Good list and great story about Right Angle. I have some objections/suggestions though:

- Is Zelda really fit for the list? It's pretty rubbish, just happens to be a lot longer than any other HS's for miles around.

- I though Wrecker's slab was terrifyingly unprotected and certainly deserved VS (at least!). Downgrading to HS would be asking for trouble.

- How about Rose Route on Suilven? Best day out on inland rock I've had in the UK I reckon. The route's pretty difficult to find and follow (and climb for that matter), but the situation is second to none.

In reply to The Ivanator:

There's not a lot in the Lakes, probably because they use the MVS grade and no-one else does anymore. But Moss Ghyll Grooves didn't make it into your VS list (rightly, cos it's not a VS) so surely it HAS to be in this list - it always used to be be HS anyway. And I think Bridge's Route should be in too. To make room, I'd leave out Metamorphosis (alright, but unmemorable, and Pembroke is over-represented) and probably Technical Slab - if you do the neb finish that surely makes it VS anyway.

Don't agree with the previous poster about Zelda - should stay.

Rick

In reply to The Ivanator: I've a soft spot for Fairy Steps as Heptonstall was my local crag at one time. It's a great route but is it up there with Tophet Wall or Shark Crack who know's, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
Your right about the general consensus for Stepping Out being Severe, but Severe 4b (Scottish Rock North Guide) isn't that just HS??

In reply to The Ivanator:

Little personal intervention, Brown's Crack AND Mutiny is very heavy on the jamming side; I also found the first one to be nothing to rave about.

Green Gut is considerably more enjoyable and, oddly, often one of the driest routes at Froggat. A very good shout especially within the first hour of rain or so before serious seepage starts.

In reply to Rick Sewards: Hmmm, bloody MVS - I agree that MGG should be on one of the lists, and the Lakes are under-represented ...I was trying to avoid contentious grades, but think this is probably a good case.
I'm pretty convinced Zelda should stay too. Technical Slab, Mutiny Crack, Fairy Steps and Metamorphosis all seem like slightly weak choices in the context of the rest of the list.

In reply to Steve Perry:
but Severe 4b (Scottish Rock North Guide) isn't that just HS??

Not always! There are plenty of other S 4b climbs around, First Corner at Subluminal and Groove Above (Idwal) come to mind immediately.

In reply to GermanAlex: Yup, think Mutiny Crack is disposable, probably at the expense of something from elsewhere rather than more Peak grit though.

In reply to The Ivanator:

One for Lancashire - 999 at Wilton. It may not compare to many on the list but Lancashire, by rights, should have one on the list.

And Ardus should be added if MVS is being considered. It's better than Revelation for sure.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Mutiny Crack is a 4c boulder problem then a few metres of diff jug pulling to a severe finishing move. If you think this is one of grit's top 10 HS climbs you need to get out more

In reply to Chris the Tall: I love the North Pembs Sandstone, and the photos do look brilliant, so perhaps Metamorphosis should remain. Tend to think Pembs should be trimmed to 4 selections though - is Myola a better sacrifice? Not so convinced Mutiny Crack is UK top 50 material.

In reply to Calder: Agree if MVS is in Ardus should be there. 999 increases geographical spread, but judging by the UKC feedback and photos I'm not convinced it really sits comfortably quality wise - I should get on it and find out for sure.

In reply to Chris the Tall:
How the hell can an 8 metre route on Burbage North be HS in E1 territory?!

In reply to The Ivanator: I was jesting about 999! But yes, you should get on it...

In reply to The Ivanator: Commando Crack on Sgurr Alasdair is better than Integrity IMHO

In reply to crossdressingrodney: Got to agree Zelda is rubbish! Doorpost ain't 3* either, but it beats Zelda by a mile!

Tophet Wall for a biggie, Robin Hoods RHBD at Stanage for a shortie.

In reply to Bob Hassall:

By this definition there would not be very many 3* routes in the UK.

In reply to The Ivanator: But you agree about Zelda! Doorpost was a good route yes, but great, no sorry. Unless it has got better than it was in the 80s. Sea Mist is better IMHO.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Scotland - Ardverikie Wall

Lakes - Mossghyll Groove

Wales - Main Wall - Cryn Las

Grit - RHRH Buttress Direct

South West - Devils Slide

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Funny you should say that about Mutiny Crack and Nasal Buttress - I found Mutiny Crack much more of a continuous, quality climbing experience, whereas Nasal Buttress had one awkward section and not such pleasant movement.

In reply to crossdressingrodney:

I'd agree with that. I haven't done the route mind (though it's on my to-do list), but it deserves 3 stars just by being on Suilven

In reply to Calder:

Because it overcomes two overhanging sections, and because the two routes to the left are E4. The route to the right is soft HVS, but there's a bit of a gap (by peak standards)

In reply to Bob Hassall: I'd concur that Zelda is not the finest route in the list, or even in the top half of the 50, but I do think it deserves a place.
I'm confident a majority climbers would rate Doorpost above Sea Mist (pleasant though it is).

In reply to Toreador:

The rock on Suliven is often poor and overgrown and you are standing on the bit that looks best from the surroundings. Stac Polidth has the best routes of those mountains. There is a 2 star route there given VD that is not far off making the best HS list.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Excellent thread. I do worry though that only 4 HS routes in the Lakes can be found...there must be more contenders, surely (Pillar...Eastern Lakes..?)
Is Ardus still not HS??

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The start is undercut enough to be regarded as an overhang the top is pretty much vertical. Its a lovely enough route (I solo it every time I go to the crag) but its not top 50 in the UK.

In reply to Greenbanks: As MVS doesn't qualify for the VS lists I've previously compiled, or justify its own list, I'm thinking Ardus and Moss Ghyll Grooves should both be included.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Another vote for removing Zelda. Good climbing, but not great. Left Hand Route/Bacchanalian is much better.

Demo Route is a better route to take photographs of than it is to climb.

Central Groove - pitch 1 is great, the rest isn't.

Sea Mist - not convinced it's either HS or 3 stars.

On grit I'd add Great Chimney (Kinder) and remove Mutiny Crack.

If Technical Slab with Neb finish is allowed then presumably we're accepting corrections to the guidebook grades. In which case Gladiator on Penyghent (the true Red Pencil Direct) should be on the list - gets VS 4b but is well protected and with short-lived difficulties.

What about
Stonnis Crack (Black Rocks)
Epitaph (Baildon)
PMC1 (Curbar)
Left Monolith (Ravenbstones)

at Crag Lough I'd have Hadrian's Buttress rather than Main Wall (it's graded S but is really top end HS).
Also in Northumberland, Idiots Delight (Great Wanney)

Lakes:
Bridge's Route (Dow)

In reply to The Ivanator:

A dangerous suggestion though - contaminating the thread with illusiary MVS routes!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Next you'll be changing it to Top 50 HS and MVS climbs! A couple of MVSs that come to mind straight away are Asterisk (was HS) and The Fang (rated HS by some UKC habituees). I'm sure I could come up with a few more in short order.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

So where's the E1 bit?

I really don't think the cliche, "a merrr route in merrr merrr territory" can apply to grit. Or any short route for that matter.

It's just HS territory. Hence the grade.

End of chat.

In reply to Toreador:

Grades change all the time and Neb Finish is very soft at the grade with modern pro giving some marginal protection and improved sticky rubber (a position at the bottom or top of a BMC graded list is a clue that the re-graders didn't dominate in the sense its best not to change grades unless you are clear). Great Chimney isn't a patch on Parsons so I'd say no. Stonnis Crack is another lovely route but more about history than the climbing so pushing it for top 50. PMC 1 is a good maybe call as is Left Monolith. I still cant help thinking there are too few mountain routes and too many grit routes.

In reply to The Ivanator:
Good idea to give Lakeland MVSs honorary HS status.
Moss Ledge Direct and Jones' Arete
Hopkinson's Gully
SW Climb and NW Climb on Pillar.

In reply to Offwidth:

Have you done Rose Route?

I would exactly echo crossdressingrodney's sentiments about it. Pleasant climbing (I don't remember any loose rock, and the only vegetation was the big grass terrace you just have to wander up) in an absolutely gobsmackingly brilliant location. And you finish on top of one of the best mountains in the country. I'd put it in.

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree about Neb finish, I wasn't questioning the regrading, just adding another of my own

I also agree about too much grit and too few mountain routes, sadly that mirrors my own climbing life!

In reply to Toreador:

Agreed
Was on Esk Buttress last time I did it.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Of the ones that I've done:

South West:
1. Doorpost (Bosigran) - yes
2. Right Angle (Gurnard's Head) - very definitely yes
3. Flannel Avenue (Chair Ladder) - yes, and what about Pegasus too?
4. Demo Route (Sennen) - yes (no idea what some people have against the route, it's ace)
5. Central Groove (The Dewerstone) - I was a bit underwhelmed, but it's a nice line and lots of other people seem to love it
7. The Devil's Slide (Lundy) - yes!
South Wales:
1. Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay) - yes, what about Bow-Shaped Corner?
2. Sea Mist (Saddle Head) - yes
3. Diedre Sud (Mowing Word) - yes
4. Metamorphosis (Carreg y Barcud) - really? I love the North Pembroke crags too, but wasn't fussed by this. Can't think of any other HSs of note to replace it with, but it smacks of tokenism to me.
5. Myola (Stuntsman’s Buttress) - it's alright, but not that good
North Wales:
1. Main Wall (Cyrn Las) - yes!
2. Dives/Better Things (Dinas Cromlech) - yes
5. Christmas Curry/Micah Finish (Craig Bwlch Y Moch) - yes!
6. Creag Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell) - yes
8. The Cracks (Dinas Mot) - just about on historical merit. The climbing isn't that great.
9. Jingling Wall (Clogwyn Cyrau) - I didn't think this was particularly good. It's ok for the crag, but it isn't a particularly inspiring crag.
Peak District:
1. Brown’s Crack (Bamford) - maybe
4. Christmas Crack (Stanage Popular) - I think April Crack is better (RHRHBD is somewhere between the two, but only Severe in any sensible person's book, so doesn't count)
5. Technical Slab (Roaches Upper) yes - Gordon, the Neb Finish is (rightly) VS 4b
6. Mutiny Crack (Burbage) - no way. Amazon Crack is better, but still nowhere near good enough.
1. Tophet Wall (The Napes) - yes!
Yorkshire and Northumberland:
1. Parson’s Chimney - yes
2. Moonshine (Attermire Scar) - probably just about
3. Main Wall (Crag Lough) - yes
Scotland:
1. Cave Route (Huntley’s Cave) - yes
2. Integrity (Sron na Ciche) - yes
3. Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas) - yes

A few other suggestions:
Rose Route as mentioned above
Autumn Flakes at Bosigran
Terrier's Tooth is HS these days and has classic pedigree
Sail Arete at Turning Stone Edge if you want to replace Mutiny Crack with another Eastern grit route, or PMC1 at Curbar
As Pagan suggested, Epitaph at Baildon is very good, not sure if it's quite good enough though
Integrity on Lundy might be worth a look in?

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I thought the latter was better. But whatever, that may be personal opinion, and it's not like Flannel Avenue's shite.

Sensible to only have one of them...

In reply to Calder: Chair Ladder is good at HS: Pegasus, Flannel Ave. & Terrier's Tooth just plumped for Flannel, but perhaps Terriers is best of all. Pegasus had a few scrappy bits and the awkward crux (start of pitch 3 onto the ledge) is just nasty - one of those moves that is hard to grade and impossible to perform elegantly.

In reply to victim of mathematics: I did Jingling Wall recently and thought it was fantastic, but didn't arrive with great expectations, so was pleasantly surprised, I found it pretty sustained with good moves throughout and thought it one of the very best single pitch HS's I'd done.

In reply to victim of mathematics: The other N Pembs HS I thought of was Caerfai Crack, but I suspect neither quite justify inclusion. Flash Harry at Ogmore would bring more variety to the South Wales selection, but I suspect Wall Street is a better example of a crumbly limestone seaciff adventure at the grade.

In reply to Rog Wilko: I've opened a can of worms with the suggestion of including MVS's. I'll have a look at the list this evening and see how many I can squeeze in, I tend to agree with the sentiment several people have expressed that there are too many short grit routes - although they clearly have their merit.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Actually I'd agree with your original suggestion of Flannel Avenue if you only have one of the three, but either of the other two are better than a fair number of the routes that are on the list.

In reply to victim of mathematics: True, but with the pressure on places and some wish to provide a geographical spread I think it is 1 from 3. Rose Route looks worthy.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Looks good, but also seems to be Severe on here.

In reply to Darren09:

Nah I don't think the HS finish adds anything to the route. Much better the normal finish as the best severe in the country.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
>> Bridge's Route (Dow)

The true name for Esk Buttress is Dow Crag

In reply to Dave 88:

Have corrected that for you

In reply to Iain Peters:

Good idea! There is still the odd slightly loose hold but generally it's all sound. It's not like you're going to pump out checking holds!

In reply to Toreador:

Haha, maybe I need to get out more. Do love bridging though.

In reply to The Ivanator:

I don't think there are too many. Clearly you can't equate 20ft of grit with a full-on mountain route, but I don't think you need to. They're all classics in their own right.

IMHO, the list should represent climbing around the country of all flavours. There's so much quality rock in the Peak, and so many people climbing there, that it's easy to dismiss it as commonplace.

I hope Brown's Crack makes it back into the list, if it's in danger of dropping off. Apart from anything else it's such an appealing line - you get a lot of wandering routes in the easy grades, and to have a straight up line like this is a treat.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Have to agree with Zelda and Central Groove, both brilliant.
I think Green Gut is a tad sandy and awkward to be that good. Similarly Great Slab is polished to buggery, then very grimy up the back wall.
Personally I think Christmas Crack is much much better than April Crack, but I doubt you'll get a solid consensus on that one.
Considering Covent Garden at Millstone should be HS, maybe that should make the list.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Mike has just done the new Cuillin SMC Guide, it's HS**** in that.

In reply to The Ivanator: I've upgraded to HS and would have made it Mild VS if the SMC allowed that as a grade (it's northern England only apparently).
Popping out of the squeeze pitch into a wild position to sustained moves on pitch 2 is 4b and the layback moves above gear on pitch 5 are close to 4c.
The south-facing aspect and being sheltered in north & easterly winds that give Skye its best weather makes the extra approach walk past the north-west facing walls of of Sron na Ciche well worthwhile. Add in an ascent of Grand Diedre at VS for a classic day out.

I'll do somethiong about UKC listing.

In reply to Richard Alderton: Brown's Crack is still there and Peak Grit is not set to be banished completely! Certainly there is a desire to represent the variety of climbing around the country, but the tricky bit is balancing that against where the real quality lies. The result is bound to be something of a compromise, but arguing the merits of various routes is fun, no?

In reply to The Ivanator: The best I have done is Central Groove @ The Dewerstone, but the next best 2 for me would be Nasal Buttress at Dovestone Edge and April Crack at Stanage.

In reply to Mike Lates: I think you seem well qualified to correct the UKC grading, I'll definitely find space for that one when I revise the list - looks like top 10 material, nevermind top 50.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Looks unspectacular and its always been midgy and its a long walk to carry gear so no. Obviously will have to now. I can't agree a climb can get on the list just for location though.

Just been having a look at other possibilities everyone has forgotten Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress direct at Stanage; Central Climb at Hen cloud (definitive HS) and Roaches Crack and Corner should be there too

Further afield Terriers Tooth is HS 4b*** on the logbook for the direct start: Raven at Ardmair is still S * (should probably be HS 4b**); Patey's Variation on Beinn Eigh is highly rated by some but I've not done it. Ditto Beak Ridge and Forest face on N.York Moors; Ace of Diamonds at Reiff; Open secret at Stone Valley.

In reply to Offwidth:


...999 at Wilton...The Weight and Magic Dragon from NE Scotland

In reply to Offwidth: Open Secret and the Weight are on the list. Several others you mention have been considered too, but have been squeezed out.

In reply to Steve Perry:

I thought Stepping out was definitive Severe 4b - one exposed and awkward move off a ledge with bomber overhead gear.

In reply to Rog Wilko: Some of the Lakeland MVSes seem towards the VS end of MVS if there is such a thing, Asterisk gets VS on here. Think I can shoehorn Ardus, the Fang and Moss Ghyll Grooves in.

In reply to Toreador:

I knew that, but you're just creating confusion by being a smart-arse. :oD

In reply to The Ivanator: In my list obsession it was my intention to tackle the HVS classics next, but I've stumbled into this thread and have enjoyed the friendly debate. I really need to tick a few more of the HVS contenders before I feel qualified to play chair to a discussion of their merits anyway. Highlight of the thread is the insight into the first ascent of Right Angle from Iain Peters, the most fascinating post I've read in a long long time.
Just tweaking a revised version of the list and will post this soon, no doubt sparking more debate!

In reply to The Ivanator:
I'm going to repeat my call for Pinnacle Wall. It is comparable to Right Angle. It is better than Doorpost and Creagh Dhu Wall. It is way better than others like Pegasus, Christmas Curry (although that finish is cool), Zelda, and any of the grit routes (I do like grit, but you just can't compare).

In reply to Si dH: I'm convinced it is fantastic and having just re-checked North Wales Rock think I'll have to find a space (in the Mur y Niwl description they say of Pinnacle Wall "provides a good outing on its own at HS 4b"). Despite the fact I really enjoyed it I think it is goodbye to Jingling Wall.

In reply to The Ivanator:
Thanks
I think its a shame they don't describe it separately in NWR. I thought the top pitch was better quality than anything on Mur y Niwl really.

In reply to The Ivanator:

My mate Tom.

In reply to The Ivanator: OK, I obviously haven't been able to squeeze everything in, but feel the balance is better now. A little more from Scotland and the Lakes (after surrendering to the inclusion of a trio of MVSes). Peak and Pembroke thinned out a little, but I think the best ones are still there.
I will add it as a UKC ticklist once the dust settles

South West:
1. Doorpost (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=845
2. Right Angle (Gurnard's Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28738
3. Flannel Avenue (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1989
4. Demo Route (Sennen) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30513
5. Central Groove (The Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26065
6. Wall Street (Cormorant Ledge) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=25928
7. The Devil's Slide (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31090
8. Zelda (Wintour’s Leap) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32252
9. Temporary Lifestyle (Cave Hole) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=13911
South Wales:
1. Bow Shaped Slab (Flimston Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24548
2. Sea Mist (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24629
3. Diedre Sud (Mowing Word) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24949
North Wales:
1. Main Wall (Cyrn Las) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28749
2. Dives/Better Things (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3182
3. Direct Route (Glyder Fach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85392
4. Manx Wall (Clogwyn Du Ymhen Y Glyder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=35656
5. Christmas Curry/Micah Finish (Craig Bwlch Y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2489
6. Creag Dhu Wall (Craig Y Castell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2736
7. White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner (Craig Yr Wrysgan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=73584 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=73585
8. The Cracks (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3254
9. Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29166
Peak District:
1. Brown’s Crack (Bamford) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9754
2. Upper Tor Wall (Kinder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16819
3. Route 1 (Wimberry) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16212
4. Christmas Crack (Stanage Popular) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10344
5. Nasal Buttress (Dovestones) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16500
Lake District
1. Tophet Wall (The Napes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8209
2. Hopkinson’s Crack (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3394
3. Rib and Slab Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6373
4. Revelation (Raven Crag, Langdale) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6687
5. Ardus (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7536
6. Moss Ghyll Grooves (Scafell Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6988
7. The Fang (Gouther Crags) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4458
Yorkshire and Northumberland:
1. Parson’s Chimney (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=54
2. Moonshine (Attermire Scar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12842
3. Main Wall (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33536
4. College Grooves (Henhole Crags) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=67040
Scotland:
1. Cave Route (Huntley’s Cave) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38202
2. Integrity (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7741
3. Ardverikie Wall (Binnein Shuas) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=670
4. Shark Crack (Sheigra) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50581
5. The Weight (Fulmar Wall) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31964
6. Central Crack (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=90104
7. Open Secret (Stone Valley Crags) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38415
8. Nirvana Wall (Aonach Dubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38236
9. Leac Glas (Meall Meadhoin) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33790
10. The Talisman (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2953
11. Commando Crack (Sgurr Alistair) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7433
12. Butterknife (Garbh Bheinn) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4111
Channel Islands
1. Hailstone Crack (Beauport, Jersey) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55735

In reply to confusicating:

Is this an obscure reference to http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=99885
Looks good, but I haven't done it and there is nothing much to go on votes/photos wise.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Ha! No, that would have been clever, though.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Just have to put them in order of quality now...

In reply to The Ivanator:

An amazing HS multipitch in Costa Blanca is Espolon Central Directe. Not only does it have an epic name but also 450m climbing on a superb rib with view out across the mountains and sea.

In reply to The Ivanator:

The grit ones were squeezed out by who and why? RHRRBD I'd argue is the best single named route given HS on grit and has been that grade in all guides for decades now; its been recommended by some of the most experienced climbers contributing. I and others think it should maybe be a severe in a modern context but it isn't as yet and as such its a dead cert that it should go in. The only reasons Central Climb shouldn't make it its in the VS list (HS 4c in the definitive); again better than anything in the list if you do the amazing 'Final Crack' finish on the left of the normal third pitch (this pitch is possibly better than Browns in its own right). Modern at Hen cloud (solid HS in definitive) is also better than some on the list.

You have to make your mind up and be clear about what you are including is the grade a route is, or the grade it should be otherwise lots of brilliant dual graded routes risk getting muddled and lost. Roaches Crack and Corner as an example is HS 4c despite the current grades and also better than most of the HS's you include. My suggestion to help with this is put routes already in the severe and VS list in a sub list below so people don't keep suggesting and keep the more likely maybes as maybe for longer and trim at the end. I think you have enough to make a hundred worst case and the longer the list arguably the more useful it is for travelling climbers.

Autumn Flakes is a recent suggestion that is a good maybe on the main list and would easily make the 50-100 route (another that I think is S 4a)

In reply to Offwidth: I think the list is pretty close to finished. Yes it could be extended to 100, but I think that would dilute the quality significantly - whilst the best routes at the grade are comparable with the best at VS the depth of good routes is not.
If RHRHBD is significantly superior to Christmas Crack it could be exchanged, but I suspect that is a question that will split people fairly evenly.
If I had infinite amounts of time then allowing a list to evolve more slowly with "definites" "probables" and "possibles" might be good - but I have a job to do and would also like to get out and climb some of the routes from time to time!
I suspect that most of the valuable debate has happened and disagreements over the last few places are likely to go round in circles.
I got into this list by accident, but it has been entertaining and opened my eyes to a few "must do" routes - this includes several not on the final list that I am intrigued by. I'm going to have to make sure I have plenty of time on my hands before I tackle the HVS selection, unless someone else wants to take up the gauntlet.
Thanks everyone for your contributions, particularly Iain Peters for the RA story and those that took the time to shift through all the routes they had done systematically - very helpful.

In reply to The Ivanator: I have now added the ticklist to the database http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=381
A couple of glitches with adding routes (Direct Route on Glyder Fach and Route 1 at Wimberry) need resolving before the list is complete.
Enjoy!
Ivan.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Excellent. Thanks for doing this.

I'm ashamed to say I only score 7.

In reply to Richard Alderton: I'm not much ahead of you with 9/50. That leaves plenty to go at for those days when I don't feel psyched to push my grade.

In reply to Richard Alderton:

Poor show, old boy! I seem to have done 77.6% but I should add it's taken me 39 years, 4 months, 13 days. At that rate I'll be pushing up daisies long before I get to 100%, but these things are an encouragement, so who knows?

In reply to The Ivanator:
23 for me, including the ones I've not put in my logbook cos I can't remember when I did them. Let down as usual by a lack of Scottish routes - it always seems to rain at the wrong time!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Loving this thread guys

Consider me subscribing to that tick list!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Thanks for taking the time to do this and hope I didn't overdo the arguments (but without challenge its too easy to let personal favorites overcome consensus quality on such lists). I've only done half the list and a few new ones are in my sights now that I might have missed. I might even consider adding a second 50 one day. I still think the following are better route for route than the peak grit routes you've got (especially since Brown Crack might not make my peak grit top 20): RHRRB; Central Climb with Final Crack finish; Crack and Corner (Roaches); Left Monolith; PMC1

In reply to Offwidth: I must fit in some time on grit this year, then I will be able to form my own opinion, and maybe even revise the list! Thanks for your contributions and you didn't overdo it - it is good to have a range of opinions and showing a little passion for personal favourites has got to be a good thing.
I try to maintain neutrality when compiling these lists, especially as there are plenty out there with a broader experience to judge from, however personal preference is bound to sneak in somewhere. On this count I have to plead guilty over Temporary Lifestyle - it is a cracking little climb though and brings something completely different to the list ...I like the idea that it forces a DWS onto anyone who wants to complete the set!

In reply to The Ivanator:

On the subject of your finding time on grit how many of the 50 final HS's selected have you done?

In reply to Offwidth: 9/50 - which leaves plenty to go at for those days when I don't feel psyched to push my grade. One of the best things about compiling lists is having my eyes opened to gems I was previously unaware of
I have a shocking lack of grit on my climbing resume, from where I live in the Central South it is a long drive to any of the UK's major climbing destinations, so when I make the investment to travel (that's what it feels like with current petrol prices) then I tend to head
a. where the forecast looks best.
b. towards mountains or seacliffs which are my personal preference over single pitch outcrop climbing.
Keen to redress this balance somewhat though and find out why grit attracts such devotion. A couple of days at the Roaches last year (Via Dolorosa, Valkyrie, Saul's Crack etc.) was fun but didn't make a convert of me. If you want to try convincing me drop me a line and we could get out!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Yeah but the best thing about living in the baran flat lands, is that everything is equally far away, so you end up with quite varied climbing. Whereas if you lived in Sheffield, it would be hard to look past all the grit.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Espolón Central Directa
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22507

pretty good !

In reply to Dave 88: Sounds like a bit of inverted sour grapes :0D

In reply to lithos:
seconded.
Funnily I was chatting about this earlier with my wife and I realised that I find it easier to recall trad route climbs than bolted routes. Something to do with the increased attention required to look for gear placements and awareness of the lack of them. When I recall sports climbs all I see is a line of bolts even if it was an excellent and varied route. I think it is that when climbing bolted routes I am always looking for the next bolt and thinking "well I have got to get to there" with trad I am looking at the whole area for potential placements this I guess combines with the attention already expended on looking at the rock from a climbing perspective and enhancing it. I remember Espolon Central very well as we only had a light rack of gear and I really had to think about each piece I used. Equally long multi-pitch sport routes at say El Chorro I have less recollection of

In reply to Duncan Bourne: Espolon Central looks amazing, but belongs to a different list. Where the thread title says universe, read UK!!

In reply to The Ivanator:

9?? I'd assumed 30+!! ....you realise that virtually makes you an armchair list compiler.

Most of my main grit targets these days are in Yorkshire, Lancashire and Moorland... your welcome to join me but I suspect it wouldnt generate devotion (I'm about 90% in to ticking all the sub-VS routes on peak grit and about half way through Yorkshire so tend to be climbing stuff hardly anyone else ever does).

In reply to The Ivanator:

"The Greatest HS in the Universe, ever..."

Great Britain = the universe?

In reply to Offwidth: And a jolly fine armchair it is too. Hence canvassing other people rather than just assuming my knowledge is comprehensive enough to produce a list single handed.
Congratulations on your sub VS Peak progress, I quite like some solitude when I climb (hence general preference for mountains or seacliffs) so more esoteric Peak crags might appeal more than the well known Meccas.

In reply to Offwidth:

Have you been to Horsehold Scout yet?

In reply to randisi:

I have climbed HS outside Great Britain.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Thread title was a lighthearted pun on the recent Severe thread, didn't realise it would develop into a full blown list of UK HS climbs, would be good to create a list of foreign climbs of a similar grade ...but I am even less qualified to compile that one.

Until recently this had been a positive and productive thread and avoided the frequent UKC malaises of willy waving and pedantry, too much to hope that this would continue.
I suspect the fact that I have resorted to a snippy tone now will cause a glow of satisfaction for the under bridge dwellers.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Manchester Buttress and April Crack on Stanage.

In reply to Toreador: Nope. Why??

In reply to The Ivanator:

Just email me when you are coming up to the area and I'll let you know if I'm out (most weekends if Im not away). Always good to climb with constructive UKC folk and your lists are a big plus.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Which route would folk recommend for getting up the Cioch to the start of Integrity? Classic Rock has it with Cioch Direct.

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

The Classic Rock enchainment is Cioch Direct followed by Arrow Route although there was a very bad rockfall on CD a year or 2 ago although I believe a team went up and removed + stabilised the affected section/s. Whilst I am here I'm up to 24 out of 50 on the list so really must get my finger out!

In reply to Offwidth:
Cos I've written it up for the new guidebook, and reckon it's great, but so few have actually climbed there that I may be imagining it

In reply to Toreador:

I went there, soloed Greensleeves, thought it was mediocre and everything else looked totally bobbins, and went to Widdop. What was I missing?

In reply to The Ivanator:

Sorry if I've missed it, but have you considered anything in Northern Ireland? I've only climbed in the Mournes once, but Falcon at Pigeon Rock was rather good, and I could certainly imagine there would be other good stuff at the grade.

If you extended it again to include all of Ireland Ireland then Tarquin's Groove in the Bingorms is brilliant once you've climbed the hanging garden to get to the proper start of it.

In reply to Toreador:

That would explain it... isn't it in volume 2?? (I'm still visiting volume 1 venues as a priority, some for the first time)

In reply to Offwidth:

No idea what's in which volume

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I wasn't that keen on Greensleeves, but it's keeping 2 of its stars due to popular demand (of those I know who've done it the votes were for 0, 1, 2, and 3). Odyssey nearby is IMHO a classic (VS 5a though possibly undergraded), however it got no stars in any previous edition so possibly I'm overrating it (nobody else has done it in recent decades). Original Route is another fine route there. On the far west buttress, The Sizzler is another minor classic, and the rock is mostly rock coloured rather than green .

In reply to victim of mathematics: Not climbed in NI myself, but did have a browse of the main Mournes and Fairhead crags on here but missed Falcon. Probably will resist the temptation to extend to the whole of Ireland, but fascinated to hear about good mid grade climbs there. Might be headed to West Cork with the hope of doing a few new routes at some point this summer.

In reply to Turdus torquatus:


I always thought Cioch West was the better route, even before CD fell to bits and killed people.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I enjoyed Cioch West. Unfortunately we'd faffed around so much there wasn't time to do Integrity, so we did some more extreme faffing around on the descent instead.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Touch basic Jamie. Opinion re routes is one thing but think before you write please. CB on Sca Fell is only one other route of many that come to mind where climbers have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. M

In reply to The Ivanator: Probably too late for your list but an unsung gem in North Wales (Teyrn Bluffs) is Jacob's Media - an over 50m pitch of perfect slab climbing.

In reply to TraceyR:

I've seen that in the guidebook and hope to get on it sometime, it does look good.
The glitches with the list have been resolved by the good folks at UKC so it is complete for anyone who wants to go chasing HS classics:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=381

In reply to Mike Lates:

Yes, I guess you're right. Truth is that I never liked the route and on two ascents sensed something vaguely malevolent about it. The dissapearance of the yardarm seemed indicative of a state of flux. How do you think it is now?

In reply to TraceyR: Thought that was still severe? It is nice though.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Well said that man; if you allowed yourself to get spooked on the way gabbro erodes you could end up missing out on many an excellent Skye adventure. The best example I know is the main ridge which has plenty of scrambling on suspect rock... I was more careful there than on the climbs.

Before you go, any more suggestions for Skye (or wider scottish) HS classics if we build a bigger list one day?

In reply to Offwidth: not an absolute mega classsic but still very worthwhile (& as I have just written it up for another post)-
Western Drainpipe Ridge (used to be called Sally in '96 guidebook) is a great sunny route beside the path on Practice Crag, 20 mins before you reach the lochain; 2 star Hard Severe

In reply to Mike Lates:

Cheers... looking forward to using the new guide sometime soon.

In reply to The Ivanator:

But the list has 3 MVS's and 2S's, so not strictly all Hard Severes!

In reply to Sean Kelly: From the ticklist description:
"List compiled from a host of Forum suggestions, a few routes not graded HS in UKC logbooks, but all appear as HS in recent guidebooks, except the sprinkling of Lakeland MVS routes which are included to ensure the birthplace of British rock climbing has representation in line with its importance"

In reply to The Ivanator:
Interesting thread that highlights many classic climbs of the HS grade. It reminds me of my friend Barry Brewster who used to say, back in the early sixties, that climbing grades progressed as follows :
Very severe
Hard Very Severe
Extremely Severe
Ogwen Hard Severe !

In reply to Removed Userboje: A fine example of "Ogwen Hard Severe" -
Rocking Chair
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29192
To be fair it is HS 4b on here, VS 4c in Ground Up and HVS 5a in the new CC Club Ogwen! FWIW I thought VS 5a, bomber overhead gear at the crux, but ridiculously tenuous moves for HS.
Most other Ogwen HS routes I've done have seemed fair at the grade.

In reply to The Ivanator: So here's a post script: just browsing through the Llanberis guide and came upon this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=104041
Only given 2* on UKC but gets 3* in my guide, and 10 pitches over 645 ft of climbing. On the face of it this should have been a candidate, but probably wasn't because it has only 1 logbook entry on UKC! It's on a slow-to-dry wet crag, so that might be a factor.

In reply to Rog Wilko: Does look interesting, strange how traverses often get overlooked - seems many climbers have an aversion to them.
Did get a Lakes trip in over the Bank Holiday weekend, highlight was a day on Pavey - Rake End Wall and Golden Slipper.

In reply to The Ivanator: Hey, you did well, two of my favourites! Bit cold for the higher crags. One of our club members was on the first ascent of Golden Slipper (Brian Evans) - quite an achievement in those gear-free days.