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I am sure this has been done before but couldn't locate it with a quick search.
The normal conversion of grades; Trad -> Sport always seem wrong to me. If UK classic trad routes were properly bolted what grades might they really be?
A few starters:
Sunset Slab f3+
TPS = f4+
Great Slab Froggatt) = f5+
The Axe = f6a+
Cenotaph Corner = f6a
Right Wall = f6b
Thoughts and other examples?
Chris
The normal conversion of grades; Trad -> Sport always seem wrong to me. If UK classic trad routes were properly bolted what grades might they really be?
A few starters:
Sunset Slab f3+
TPS = f4+
Great Slab Froggatt) = f5+
The Axe = f6a+
Cenotaph Corner = f6a
Right Wall = f6b
Thoughts and other examples?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Oh no you've opened this topic again!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=371422&v=1#x5397751
Oh no you've opened this topic again!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=371422&v=1#x5397751
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The Moon - f6a
Rock Idol - f5
Suicide Wall (Bosigran) - f6b
Diabeig Pillar - f6a
Kipling Groove - f5+
Darius - f6b+ (pushing 6c)
The Moon - f6a
Rock Idol - f5
Suicide Wall (Bosigran) - f6b
Diabeig Pillar - f6a
Kipling Groove - f5+
Darius - f6b+ (pushing 6c)
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Even from recent experience of Ariege grades, I think you're under-shooting on some of those. For example, even though it's not sustained, TPS does have some tricky moves (the starting slab and the crux rockover move) and I fail to see how that wouldn't be in the 5's (somewhere).
Even from recent experience of Ariege grades, I think you're under-shooting on some of those. For example, even though it's not sustained, TPS does have some tricky moves (the starting slab and the crux rockover move) and I fail to see how that wouldn't be in the 5's (somewhere).
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Is there a 'proper' way to bolt Cenotaph Corner ?
DOWH f4
The File f6a+ (on the basis that the French don't jam)
Is there a 'proper' way to bolt Cenotaph Corner ?
DOWH f4
The File f6a+ (on the basis that the French don't jam)
In reply to GrahamD:
I think the file wouldn't be that bad as a sport lead where you just clip and go I could just about imagine it (and broken crack) getting F5+.
Alter Crack (Rivelin) wouldn't be a soft F5+ borderline F6a IMO. Similar in pump to this route IMO although there is one harder move on this one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29941
I think the file wouldn't be that bad as a sport lead where you just clip and go I could just about imagine it (and broken crack) getting F5+.
Alter Crack (Rivelin) wouldn't be a soft F5+ borderline F6a IMO. Similar in pump to this route IMO although there is one harder move on this one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29941
In reply to Chris Craggs: If UK classic trad routes were properly bolted what grades might they really be?
Ha, Chris! Surely this line is the flaw in an otherwise sound argument - the grades themselves sound about right. My point is that a french grade is simply what a french person would apply to a rock climb, irrespective of whether it had a bolt every ten metres, every two metres or, as in these cases, none at all - assuming of course a level of experience beyond pure sport climbing to enable reasonably objectively grading in serious as well as safe situations.
Ha, Chris! Surely this line is the flaw in an otherwise sound argument - the grades themselves sound about right. My point is that a french grade is simply what a french person would apply to a rock climb, irrespective of whether it had a bolt every ten metres, every two metres or, as in these cases, none at all - assuming of course a level of experience beyond pure sport climbing to enable reasonably objectively grading in serious as well as safe situations.
In reply to Ian Parsons:
"My point is that a french grade is simply what a french person would apply to a rock climb"
Really? I mean the grades are not consistently applied like that accross the world and different countries tend to be better at different styles. There must be far more sport climbs in the world that haven't had a french person grade them than sport climbs that have.
"My point is that a french grade is simply what a french person would apply to a rock climb"
Really? I mean the grades are not consistently applied like that accross the world and different countries tend to be better at different styles. There must be far more sport climbs in the world that haven't had a french person grade them than sport climbs that have.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The File would be terrible to sport lead if you didn't jam. Trying to lay back or 'Gaston' whilst clipping anyone ?
The File would be terrible to sport lead if you didn't jam. Trying to lay back or 'Gaston' whilst clipping anyone ?
In reply to GrahamD:
You would definately Jam it, I'm not sure why you assume sport grades have to favour a french style of climbing. If all grit was bolted wouldn't some profficiency in jamming be assumed in the grades. It would be rediculous if you could tick a climb several grades harder just because you can Jam.
You would definately Jam it, I'm not sure why you assume sport grades have to favour a french style of climbing. If all grit was bolted wouldn't some profficiency in jamming be assumed in the grades. It would be rediculous if you could tick a climb several grades harder just because you can Jam.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Cenotaph Corner felt harder than most 6a's I've done. 6a+? and even, given it's cruxy nature, 6b - I've done cruxy french routes that were no harder
And aren't Right Wall and the Axe 6a English? And it's about twice as long as most sport routes! 6b's a bit mean!
All very well if using Buoux grades I suppose
Cenotaph Corner felt harder than most 6a's I've done. 6a+? and even, given it's cruxy nature, 6b - I've done cruxy french routes that were no harder
And aren't Right Wall and the Axe 6a English? And it's about twice as long as most sport routes! 6b's a bit mean!
All very well if using Buoux grades I suppose
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Most of my hardest sport leads (hardest in terms of grade, not difficulty) have been chimneys, where 5+ or 6a usually equates to something like VDiff/Severe
> It would be rediculous if you could tick a climb several grades harder just because you can Jam.
Most of my hardest sport leads (hardest in terms of grade, not difficulty) have been chimneys, where 5+ or 6a usually equates to something like VDiff/Severe
In reply to Toreador:
OK I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The point I was trying to make was that all grading tends to vary depending on what the prevelent style of climbing in the area is. For example there is a tendency in Scotland for some crack climbs to feel quite easy for the grade if you can Jam because most the climbing is on positive holds so either the climb wasn't graded for jamming or because there is in general less profficiency at the dark art it felt harder than it should do.
OK I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The point I was trying to make was that all grading tends to vary depending on what the prevelent style of climbing in the area is. For example there is a tendency in Scotland for some crack climbs to feel quite easy for the grade if you can Jam because most the climbing is on positive holds so either the climb wasn't graded for jamming or because there is in general less profficiency at the dark art it felt harder than it should do.
In reply to Chris Craggs: How do French grade their trad routes? is F6a trad easier than F6a bolted?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yes - I think I see what you mean, but I also think we're talking about slightly different things; I probably wasn't sufficiently specific. My point was that, when trying to apply a french grade to a trad route in a part of the world where such grades are not already the norm for grading such routes - ie outside France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy etc, or various regions thereof - the most accurate/realistic grade would surely be the same as what a broadly-experienced climber from such a region would give it. So my "french" bit was also over-specific! I think your point about consistency and styles applies with any grading system used across a wide area - look at how grades and grading theory have varied between different regions across the US over the years, and the differing grades that have been applied to, for instance, offwidth cracks, depending on whether or not they happen to be regular features in their area and whether the grade consensus largely comes from people who are as skilled at climbing offwidths as they are at other types of climb. I'm sure you're right about the number of sport climbs across the world that have been given a french grade by a non-french person, but that's a slightly different matter (I think).
> Really? I mean the grades are not consistently applied like that accross the world and different countries tend to be better at different styles. There must be far more sport climbs in the world that haven't had a french person grade them than sport climbs that have.>
Yes - I think I see what you mean, but I also think we're talking about slightly different things; I probably wasn't sufficiently specific. My point was that, when trying to apply a french grade to a trad route in a part of the world where such grades are not already the norm for grading such routes - ie outside France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy etc, or various regions thereof - the most accurate/realistic grade would surely be the same as what a broadly-experienced climber from such a region would give it. So my "french" bit was also over-specific! I think your point about consistency and styles applies with any grading system used across a wide area - look at how grades and grading theory have varied between different regions across the US over the years, and the differing grades that have been applied to, for instance, offwidth cracks, depending on whether or not they happen to be regular features in their area and whether the grade consensus largely comes from people who are as skilled at climbing offwidths as they are at other types of climb. I'm sure you're right about the number of sport climbs across the world that have been given a french grade by a non-french person, but that's a slightly different matter (I think).
In reply to Chris Craggs: Interesting... I'd like to do The Axe and Right Wall, maybe even this year but can they really be THAT easy french-wise!?!?
For starters, can there be just a 2 french grade difference between and E1 5c and a bold but safe E5 6a!?!? I don't know the answer to that. (I've not actually done the corner yet... woops!)
For what it's worth, what do you think Blue Peter would get, Chris?? I thought somewhere around the 6b mark, but considering you've given that for Right Wall, I imagine you may feel closer to 6a?
Dunc
For starters, can there be just a 2 french grade difference between and E1 5c and a bold but safe E5 6a!?!? I don't know the answer to that. (I've not actually done the corner yet... woops!)
For what it's worth, what do you think Blue Peter would get, Chris?? I thought somewhere around the 6b mark, but considering you've given that for Right Wall, I imagine you may feel closer to 6a?
Dunc
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Now don't get me wrong Chris, but in my simple way I thought the (UK) technical grade was just that, irrespective of the pro or length or weather etc. etc., so doesn't it just translate 'directly'?
Now don't get me wrong Chris, but in my simple way I thought the (UK) technical grade was just that, irrespective of the pro or length or weather etc. etc., so doesn't it just translate 'directly'?
In reply to Jim at Work:
Now don't get me wrong Chris, but in my simple way I thought the (UK) technical grade was just that, irrespective of the pro or length or weather etc. etc., so doesn't it just translate 'directly'?
UK tech is for the hardest move in isolation (or sequence depending on who you ask), the French grade is for the overall difficulty so would take into account sustained-ness etc. rather than simply technicality. An F6a may contain an isolated UK5c move or could simply be sustained UK4b so they don't really convert well.
Now don't get me wrong Chris, but in my simple way I thought the (UK) technical grade was just that, irrespective of the pro or length or weather etc. etc., so doesn't it just translate 'directly'?
UK tech is for the hardest move in isolation (or sequence depending on who you ask), the French grade is for the overall difficulty so would take into account sustained-ness etc. rather than simply technicality. An F6a may contain an isolated UK5c move or could simply be sustained UK4b so they don't really convert well.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If you have a few cams in the right sizes, the File is virtually 'clip and go' already. :O)
> I think the file wouldn't be that bad as a sport lead where you just clip and go
If you have a few cams in the right sizes, the File is virtually 'clip and go' already. :O)
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Ummm yeah but that's what happens in France. The frenchies are by and large terrible at jamming and I've done some very "hard" grades on cracks which would get VS here.
> (In reply to GrahamD)
> You would definately Jam it, I'm not sure why you assume sport grades have to favour a french style of climbing. If all grit was bolted wouldn't some profficiency in jamming be assumed in the grades. It would be rediculous if you could tick a climb several grades harder just because you can Jam.
> You would definately Jam it, I'm not sure why you assume sport grades have to favour a french style of climbing. If all grit was bolted wouldn't some profficiency in jamming be assumed in the grades. It would be rediculous if you could tick a climb several grades harder just because you can Jam.
Ummm yeah but that's what happens in France. The frenchies are by and large terrible at jamming and I've done some very "hard" grades on cracks which would get VS here.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I've not done it but I thought the concensus was 6b+ or more likley 6c, with Resurrection being 6c+.
> > Right Wall = f6b
I've not done it but I thought the concensus was 6b+ or more likley 6c, with Resurrection being 6c+.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Thanks....Damn!!! that's brought my grades down
Thanks....Damn!!! that's brought my grades down
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Its an observation that, in general, French climbers chose not to jam and their cracks do seem to get graded accordingly. A bit tongue in cheek. Of course The File is f4+
Its an observation that, in general, French climbers chose not to jam and their cracks do seem to get graded accordingly. A bit tongue in cheek. Of course The File is f4+
In reply to Toerag:
From my experience gear isn't taken into consideration. I did a multi pitch trad route at Annot, 5c, 6b, 6b+, 6c. We thought some if it could warant E5 and most of it was difinitely E4.
E
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) How do French grade their trad routes? is F6a trad easier than F6a bolted?
From my experience gear isn't taken into consideration. I did a multi pitch trad route at Annot, 5c, 6b, 6b+, 6c. We thought some if it could warant E5 and most of it was difinitely E4.
E
In reply to Chris Craggs and Jon Stewart:
We seem to have gone full circle now from believing UK routes to be nails to now saying up to E5 they are trivial! I'd say you are both stingy in your assesments. I'd expect to climb up to F6bc without thinkng about it and without risking falling off, I could not say that for many of the routes you've listed. I guess a lot of this is due to the nature of the climbs and how different they are to the usual foreign low grade sport routes (cruxy and shallow angled rather than steep and sustained).
We seem to have gone full circle now from believing UK routes to be nails to now saying up to E5 they are trivial! I'd say you are both stingy in your assesments. I'd expect to climb up to F6bc without thinkng about it and without risking falling off, I could not say that for many of the routes you've listed. I guess a lot of this is due to the nature of the climbs and how different they are to the usual foreign low grade sport routes (cruxy and shallow angled rather than steep and sustained).
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Im reading that as you had a hard time on Darius.
Your The Moon is E1 pratteling is rather tiresome and tidious. Can you give me a list of other routes you've done in a similar situation of a similar difficulty that are graded E1 so I don't get on them please.
Currently, I'm putting you down as one of those annoying people who is way better than they are brave and therefore should be climbing way harder than they do on trad.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
>
> Darius - f6b+ (pushing 6c)
Im reading that as you had a hard time on Darius.
Your The Moon is E1 pratteling is rather tiresome and tidious. Can you give me a list of other routes you've done in a similar situation of a similar difficulty that are graded E1 so I don't get on them please.
Currently, I'm putting you down as one of those annoying people who is way better than they are brave and therefore should be climbing way harder than they do on trad.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Haven't we been here before?: http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
Most answers there
Haven't we been here before?: http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
Most answers there
In reply to mike kann:
You seem to be agreeing with what I was saying, perhaps I didn't say it very clearly. Grades are by and large dependent on the predominantly (popular) styles of climbing in the local area. As grit has a lot of jamming on the routes, assumedly if it was all bolted the file would not get F6a+ !!!
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
> [...]
>
> Ummm yeah but that's what happens in France. The frenchies are by and large terrible at jamming and I've done some very "hard" grades on cracks which would get VS here.
> [...]
>
> Ummm yeah but that's what happens in France. The frenchies are by and large terrible at jamming and I've done some very "hard" grades on cracks which would get VS here.
You seem to be agreeing with what I was saying, perhaps I didn't say it very clearly. Grades are by and large dependent on the predominantly (popular) styles of climbing in the local area. As grit has a lot of jamming on the routes, assumedly if it was all bolted the file would not get F6a+ !!!
In reply to GrahamD:
What grade do you reckon Bond Street would be if you didn't jam?
A french guy seconded me on it a few years ago and didn't jam once; it looked pretty hard.
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> Its an observation that, in general, French climbers chose not to jam and their cracks do seem to get graded accordingly.
>
> Its an observation that, in general, French climbers chose not to jam and their cracks do seem to get graded accordingly.
What grade do you reckon Bond Street would be if you didn't jam?
A french guy seconded me on it a few years ago and didn't jam once; it looked pretty hard.
In reply to Hat Dude:
6b+ for Bond St with no jam ? I don't reckon I could do it even top roped. Probably 5+ with a jam.
6b+ for Bond St with no jam ? I don't reckon I could do it even top roped. Probably 5+ with a jam.
In reply to CurlyStevo: I can never remember how french grades work - it's for the easiest way of doing the route if you were redpointing isn't it? So working on the basis that you'd grade it for having jammed it as that is the easiest way of doing the route. If you can't jam it doesn't matter because jamming is still the easiest way of doing it.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Alter Crack (Rivelin) wouldn't be a soft F5+ borderline F6a IMO. Similar in pump to this route IMO although there is one harder move on this one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29941
That must be as you lack technique and/or climbed it wrong (how many times have you done it?). I'd say its f4+ish... it would be a lot easier to lead with bolts as you could put them where you can reach, whereas as it is you need to pull in strenuously to place good gear so it feels imposing for a protectable route. The File would be no easier to lead with bolts (unless you put the cams in the wrong place); in French terms The File would be f6 or more but it should really be about f5.
Alter Crack (Rivelin) wouldn't be a soft F5+ borderline F6a IMO. Similar in pump to this route IMO although there is one harder move on this one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29941
That must be as you lack technique and/or climbed it wrong (how many times have you done it?). I'd say its f4+ish... it would be a lot easier to lead with bolts as you could put them where you can reach, whereas as it is you need to pull in strenuously to place good gear so it feels imposing for a protectable route. The File would be no easier to lead with bolts (unless you put the cams in the wrong place); in French terms The File would be f6 or more but it should really be about f5.
In reply to Offwidth:
Go on then give me an example of an F4+ layback route that is as pumpy as alter crack. I seconded it when I was climbing well and the gear was easy to take out (cams one in situ in the harder to put in area). Very pumpy climb for the length, OK not that hard on each move I agree.
Go on then give me an example of an F4+ layback route that is as pumpy as alter crack. I seconded it when I was climbing well and the gear was easy to take out (cams one in situ in the harder to put in area). Very pumpy climb for the length, OK not that hard on each move I agree.
In reply to mike kann: Here in Finland, Finnish grades have died out for sports climbs and seems to be going that way for trad routes as well. On trad lines people don't seem to be adding in ease or quantity/quality of gear to the 'French' grade. So we have, say, 40 mtr finger cracks at 6a+. And I agree that you would have to be competent at cracks for it to be that grade. Having said that, at the grades I can climb, I've found UK 'french' grades softer than how they are used here. But anyway, I don't think you need to think about what would UK classics be 'if they were bolted'. I guess they would be the same French grade as they are now in their un-bolted form!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
"Look at me, I've climbed Right Wall and The Axe - and what's more I found them sooooo easy. How great am I?"
"Look at me, I've climbed Right Wall and The Axe - and what's more I found them sooooo easy. How great am I?"
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
Yes - and I 2nd them both - so not that great really!
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> "Look at me, I've climbed Right Wall and The Axe - and what's more I found them sooooo easy. How great am I?"
>
>
> "Look at me, I've climbed Right Wall and The Axe - and what's more I found them sooooo easy. How great am I?"
>
Yes - and I 2nd them both - so not that great really!
Chris
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
So says 21y old who's been climbing 1-3ys to veteran gent with nearly 50ys experience.
I think Chris is past many things, willy waving among them.
So says 21y old who's been climbing 1-3ys to veteran gent with nearly 50ys experience.
I think Chris is past many things, willy waving among them.
In reply to Owen W-G:
It was meant as a light-hearted jibe, not maliciously. No offence intended, Chris.
If I were him, I'd be more offended by being called 'past many things'!
Also, I hope you're right about the grades - plan to get on them both this summer!
It was meant as a light-hearted jibe, not maliciously. No offence intended, Chris.
If I were him, I'd be more offended by being called 'past many things'!
Also, I hope you're right about the grades - plan to get on them both this summer!
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
I think Chris may have spent too long in the Ariege and forgotten what normal grades are like
I think Chris may have spent too long in the Ariege and forgotten what normal grades are like
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
Yeah, no offence Chris.
Word on the street is you've still got the magic.
Yeah, no offence Chris.
Word on the street is you've still got the magic.
> (In reply to Ed Feldman)
>
> So says 21y old who's been climbing 1-3ys to veteran gent with nearly 50ys experience.
>
> I think Chris is past many things, willy waving among them.
>
> So says 21y old who's been climbing 1-3ys to veteran gent with nearly 50ys experience.
>
> I think Chris is past many things, willy waving among them.
Chis is correct. I've done these routes and a huge amount of euro climbing. The Gates would be 5+. Right Wall 6b+ Lord 7a+ The Corner 6a Left Wall 6a+ ... but not half as much fun if bolted
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Given that the hardest sport route I've ever climbed was F6b, I can only extrapolate, but that sounds about right.
F5 for The File is about spot on though.
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> I think Altar Crack is about 7a+/b
>
> I think Altar Crack is about 7a+/b
Given that the hardest sport route I've ever climbed was F6b, I can only extrapolate, but that sounds about right.
F5 for The File is about spot on though.
In reply to Removed User:
I think 6c is fair for RW, it's a big route, seems to compare in difficulities with 30 - 40m 6c's I've done on the continent and it does have the odd tricky moves (decent climbers have fallen off the moves above the girdle ledge). 6a+ sounds about right for LW (though it's a long time ago), 6c+ for Ressurection (via right hand finish harder physically than RW but not such a big lead).
> [...]
>
> Chis is correct. I've done these routes and a huge amount of euro climbing. The Gates would be 5+. Right Wall 6b+ Lord 7a+ The Corner 6a Left Wall 6a+ ... but not half as much fun if bolted
>
> Chis is correct. I've done these routes and a huge amount of euro climbing. The Gates would be 5+. Right Wall 6b+ Lord 7a+ The Corner 6a Left Wall 6a+ ... but not half as much fun if bolted
I think 6c is fair for RW, it's a big route, seems to compare in difficulities with 30 - 40m 6c's I've done on the continent and it does have the odd tricky moves (decent climbers have fallen off the moves above the girdle ledge). 6a+ sounds about right for LW (though it's a long time ago), 6c+ for Ressurection (via right hand finish harder physically than RW but not such a big lead).
In reply to Removed User:
I onsighted about 10-15 6a+'s last year, usually as warm-ups ... but I still only got half-way on Left Wall before I bailed and I was feeling fairly good that day. Couldn't think of any excuses (reasons - sorry Hazel), just got a flash pump at about 1/3rd height.
Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
... I know this is only a bit of chit chat but the Trad-Sport grade comparison thing doesn't really work for me.
I onsighted about 10-15 6a+'s last year, usually as warm-ups ... but I still only got half-way on Left Wall before I bailed and I was feeling fairly good that day. Couldn't think of any excuses (reasons - sorry Hazel), just got a flash pump at about 1/3rd height.
Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
... I know this is only a bit of chit chat but the Trad-Sport grade comparison thing doesn't really work for me.
In reply to Chris Craggs: no way is right wall f6b it closer to f6c and the Axe definitely didn't feel f6a
In reply to Jon Didymus:
Incredible really. I've just done my first 7a+ of the season at Malaucene a couple of weeks ago - 3rd go over a week or two. I've been trying another one and after 2 or 3 goes I'll probably get it next time (famous last words).
What I'm trying to say is that if I could onsight these routes I'd be a solid E4/E5 climber back in the UK. Never going to happen though.
E
> (In reply to andyr)
>
>
>
> Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
>
>
>
>
> Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
>
Incredible really. I've just done my first 7a+ of the season at Malaucene a couple of weeks ago - 3rd go over a week or two. I've been trying another one and after 2 or 3 goes I'll probably get it next time (famous last words).
What I'm trying to say is that if I could onsight these routes I'd be a solid E4/E5 climber back in the UK. Never going to happen though.
E
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I've done very little with a french grade and any real climbing was over a decade ago
But this thread confirms that the grades at Big Rock in MK are total fiction
I think I did Cemetrey Gates the same summer as my only Boux trip, For lots of reason the Boux trip was a disaster but I thought F5+ and F6a seemed hard.
As I got better I think that I lead F6c+ once at Pen Trwyn (Spine Chill)
There is no way that now, 12 kg heavier, and after a few wall trips and the odd outdoor excursion that the F6a I'mleading on the on the wall is anything like the difficuilty of Cenotaph corner
I've done very little with a french grade and any real climbing was over a decade ago
But this thread confirms that the grades at Big Rock in MK are total fiction
I think I did Cemetrey Gates the same summer as my only Boux trip, For lots of reason the Boux trip was a disaster but I thought F5+ and F6a seemed hard.
As I got better I think that I lead F6c+ once at Pen Trwyn (Spine Chill)
There is no way that now, 12 kg heavier, and after a few wall trips and the odd outdoor excursion that the F6a I'mleading on the on the wall is anything like the difficuilty of Cenotaph corner
In reply to Chris Craggs:
"I onsighted about 10-15 6a+'s last year, usually as warm-ups ... but I still only got half-way on Left Wall before I bailed and I was feeling fairly good that day. Couldn't think of any excuses (reasons - sorry Hazel), just got a flash pump at about 1/3rd height.
Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
... I know this is only a bit of chit chat but the Trad-Sport grade comparison thing doesn't really work for me."
Its a weird game climbing. I was always very feeble and weak as climber.Max pull up in one go at my peak 11. But there is no way that I could have run out of stength the left wall before the fork in the crack (I didn't after it either even stopped for another runner as the finsihing jugs looke a bit suspect). There is also no way that I could have ever climbed F7a+.
weird wotld isn't it
"I onsighted about 10-15 6a+'s last year, usually as warm-ups ... but I still only got half-way on Left Wall before I bailed and I was feeling fairly good that day. Couldn't think of any excuses (reasons - sorry Hazel), just got a flash pump at about 1/3rd height.
Last week I flashed my first F7a+ but then really struggled on an E1 a few days later.
... I know this is only a bit of chit chat but the Trad-Sport grade comparison thing doesn't really work for me."
Its a weird game climbing. I was always very feeble and weak as climber.Max pull up in one go at my peak 11. But there is no way that I could have run out of stength the left wall before the fork in the crack (I didn't after it either even stopped for another runner as the finsihing jugs looke a bit suspect). There is also no way that I could have ever climbed F7a+.
weird wotld isn't it
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Reading through the posts it seems to me what has been conclusively proved is:
1. Humans are not good at assigning a grade to climbs
2. Existing climbs are graded inconsistently.
The solution to getting consistent and objective grades is fairly straightforward (as I proposed on another thread )
1. Instead of asking climbers to grade a climb ask them, for two routes they have done, if route A is harder than route B. Do this for a large number of climbers and a large number of routes.
2. Based on the collected comparison data get a computer to produce a 'difficulty' number for each climb. Algorithms to do this are available and have been used in other sports - the difficulty numbers are analogous to the Elo score for chess players.
3. Divide the climbs into 'grade' categories based on their difficulty.
Reading through the posts it seems to me what has been conclusively proved is:
1. Humans are not good at assigning a grade to climbs
2. Existing climbs are graded inconsistently.
The solution to getting consistent and objective grades is fairly straightforward (as I proposed on another thread )
1. Instead of asking climbers to grade a climb ask them, for two routes they have done, if route A is harder than route B. Do this for a large number of climbers and a large number of routes.
2. Based on the collected comparison data get a computer to produce a 'difficulty' number for each climb. Algorithms to do this are available and have been used in other sports - the difficulty numbers are analogous to the Elo score for chess players.
3. Divide the climbs into 'grade' categories based on their difficulty.
In reply to Removed User:
Not many 6a's out there 120' long with a 5c crux at the top!
> [...]
>
> Chis is correct. I've done these routes and a huge amount of euro climbing. The Gates would be 5+. Right Wall 6b+ Lord 7a+ The Corner 6a Left Wall 6a+ ... but not half as much fun if bolted
>
> Chis is correct. I've done these routes and a huge amount of euro climbing. The Gates would be 5+. Right Wall 6b+ Lord 7a+ The Corner 6a Left Wall 6a+ ... but not half as much fun if bolted
Not many 6a's out there 120' long with a 5c crux at the top!
In reply to Captain Gear:
Fairly. Did it OK, but it felt way harder than many limestone E3s I've done, and the crux seemed pushing 6a to me.
There's only one, it's called Astral Stroll and it's so similar to The Moon it's amazing. I haven't climbed any other similar routes, they're both in a very special league of superb, uber-atmospheric routes. I had a harder time on it than The Moon, but that could be for all sorts of reasons. My other favourite comparison for The Moon is The Sun, which I arrived at the top of, completely exhausted, having climbed a f^ckload of 5c moves up a fierce, overhanging corner. Hard. And that's E2 according to some (so, so E3).
That doesn't really stack up. I onsight soloed a protected E2 the other day, and then backed off an E3 because it was too hard. Which suggests than I'm way braver than I am good. I've failed on a couple of grit E2/3s this year by being simply unable to do the moves, even after a rest on the rope. I'm really not very good (but I can be brave on the right kind of route).
All which suggests that annoying or not, like most climbers, I can do some stuff, but not others.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Im reading that as you had a hard time on Darius.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Im reading that as you had a hard time on Darius.
Fairly. Did it OK, but it felt way harder than many limestone E3s I've done, and the crux seemed pushing 6a to me.
> Your The Moon is E1 pratteling is rather tiresome and tidious. Can you give me a list of other routes you've done in a similar situation of a similar difficulty that are graded E1 so I don't get on them please.
There's only one, it's called Astral Stroll and it's so similar to The Moon it's amazing. I haven't climbed any other similar routes, they're both in a very special league of superb, uber-atmospheric routes. I had a harder time on it than The Moon, but that could be for all sorts of reasons. My other favourite comparison for The Moon is The Sun, which I arrived at the top of, completely exhausted, having climbed a f^ckload of 5c moves up a fierce, overhanging corner. Hard. And that's E2 according to some (so, so E3).
> Currently, I'm putting you down as one of those annoying people who is way better than they are brave and therefore should be climbing way harder than they do on trad.
That doesn't really stack up. I onsight soloed a protected E2 the other day, and then backed off an E3 because it was too hard. Which suggests than I'm way braver than I am good. I've failed on a couple of grit E2/3s this year by being simply unable to do the moves, even after a rest on the rope. I'm really not very good (but I can be brave on the right kind of route).
All which suggests that annoying or not, like most climbers, I can do some stuff, but not others.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
From the sport performance vs trad thread...
These two E3's the same route? Just curious like...
> (In reply to Captain Gear)
> [...]
> [...]
> ... That doesn't really stack up. I onsight soloed a protected E2 the other day, and then backed off an E3 because it was too hard...
>
>
From the sport performance vs trad thread...
> ... I backed off a grit E3 the other day which was probably about f6b+ at a guess (it was 5c and had gear). The reason: I wasn't sure I could place the crucial gear, which had to be done in a very committing position. The uncertainty killed my attempt at the route. I had the resources, but couldn't deal mentally with the uncertainty and risk.
These two E3's the same route? Just curious like...
In reply to Calder:
Yes. Angst. Might do better on it on the right day, when conditions and mood combine to form that rare, magic 'climbing well' thing.
Yes. Angst. Might do better on it on the right day, when conditions and mood combine to form that rare, magic 'climbing well' thing.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
and err below the girdle ledge.....in err my case :p
> (In reply to andyr)
> [...]
>
> I think 6c is fair for RW, it's a big route, seems to compare in difficulities with 30 - 40m 6c's I've done on the continent and it does have the odd tricky moves (decent climbers have fallen off the moves above the girdle ledge).
> [...]
>
> I think 6c is fair for RW, it's a big route, seems to compare in difficulities with 30 - 40m 6c's I've done on the continent and it does have the odd tricky moves (decent climbers have fallen off the moves above the girdle ledge).
and err below the girdle ledge.....in err my case :p
In reply to Chris Craggs:
To continue with my earlier theme - that the best way to get a French grade for a route is to ask a Frenchman - but with a transatlantic twist, the following may be of interest. In the late summer of 1982 a group of US climbers visited on a BMC-organised meet; they spent a couple of weeks in North Wales and the Peak District. The host team routinely persuaded the visitors to ascribe American grades to the routes that they had just done - international travel and familiarity with other grading systems being far less commonplace than they are now - and their collective views were published in Mountain #89 (the one with Caveman on the cover). Arguably, French and American grades are pretty much the same thing but with different figures. Both, as far as I am aware, purport to define the physical difficulty of a section of relatively hard climbing between effective rests, have similar gradations, and both have optional add-on "seriousness" figures - R/X in the case of the American system, and the R/S 1/2/3 etc grades that are used in guidebooks to several alpine rock areas, and possibly elsewhere. I have transcribed the grades themselves, using the familiar conversion rate - ie 5.9 = 5, 5.10a = 5+, 5.10b = 6a, 5.10c = 6a+, etc, all the way to 5.12d = 7c; if you think this a little harsh then nudge them up a notch. Split grades obviously indicate a lack of total agreement. Here's the list:
- Ramshaw Crack; 6b (these were west coast Americans - good at cracks!)
- Downhill Racer; 6c
- Long John's Slab; 6a
- Chequers Crack; 5
- Beech Nut; 5+
- Stiff Cheese; 5+
- Tales of Yankee Power; 7a
- Nightmare of Brown Donkeys; 6a+, 6a+
- Darius; 6a
- Delicatessen; 5+, 5
- Debauchery; 5
- Golden Mile; 6c+/7a
- Ceramic; 6c
- Sirplum; 5
- Bastille; 7a+
- JR; 6c+
- Cenotaph Corner; 5/5+
- Left Wall; 6a/6a+
- Resurrection; 6c
- True Grip; 6c+
- Memory Lane; 6a+
- Foil; 6b+
- Atomic Hot Rod; 7a+
- Strike; 6b+
- The Strand; 5+
- Positron; 6a+, 6a+, 6c+ (the 2nd pitch was climbed direct to the Rat Race belay, thus missing out the tricky move left into Alien)
- Citadel pitch 1; 6c+
- Big Groove; 6a+
- Mousetrap; 5
- Dream of White Horses; 4+ (I think - they said 5.7)
- Grasper; 5+, 6a
- Zukator; 5, 6c+
- Marathon Man; 7a
- Extraction; 6a+, 6a+
- Vector; 4+, 6a, 5+
- Croaker; 6b+
- Cream; 6a+, 6c
- Void; 6b+/c
- Atomic Finger Flake; 6c/c+
- Strawberries; 7c
- Vulture; 6c+
- Fingerlicker; 6b+
- Axle Attack; 6c+/7a
- Mayfair; 6c+/7a
- The New Dimension; 6a+, 6b+, 5-
- Appian way; 4+, 5-, 5, 5
- Rude Awakening; 7a
- Great Wall (Forwen); 6b
- Quickstep; 6b+/c
- Moonwind Direct; 6c+
- Space Mountain; 6c+
- Pterodactyl; 5
- Banana Moon; 6a+/b
- Mojo plus Direct finish; 5, 6a
- Freedom; 5, 5+
- The Groan; 6b, 6b+
- Sangfroid Direct; 6a/+
- The Snake; 5+, 5
- Burgess Wall; 5+, 6b
The route you're possibly all waiting for, Right Wall, was the subject of some disagreement; one guy, who followed it and thus probably had the better idea of its physical difficulty, thought 6b (5.10d) - the other, who led it, and was probably trying to incorporate something of the route's run-out nature into the grade, said 6c+ (5.11c).
Fairly evidently from the routes climbed, bearing in mind that this was thirty years ago, the American team were no slouches; the usual caveats about good climbers trying to put realistic grades on the occasional easier routes therefore apply. The few Great Orme routes that are now sport would, back then, have been mixed ethic; the odd bolt, peg or thread supplemented with leader-placed gear. The Forwen routes, due to the difficult access situation during the intervening years, may not be familiar to some people.
To continue with my earlier theme - that the best way to get a French grade for a route is to ask a Frenchman - but with a transatlantic twist, the following may be of interest. In the late summer of 1982 a group of US climbers visited on a BMC-organised meet; they spent a couple of weeks in North Wales and the Peak District. The host team routinely persuaded the visitors to ascribe American grades to the routes that they had just done - international travel and familiarity with other grading systems being far less commonplace than they are now - and their collective views were published in Mountain #89 (the one with Caveman on the cover). Arguably, French and American grades are pretty much the same thing but with different figures. Both, as far as I am aware, purport to define the physical difficulty of a section of relatively hard climbing between effective rests, have similar gradations, and both have optional add-on "seriousness" figures - R/X in the case of the American system, and the R/S 1/2/3 etc grades that are used in guidebooks to several alpine rock areas, and possibly elsewhere. I have transcribed the grades themselves, using the familiar conversion rate - ie 5.9 = 5, 5.10a = 5+, 5.10b = 6a, 5.10c = 6a+, etc, all the way to 5.12d = 7c; if you think this a little harsh then nudge them up a notch. Split grades obviously indicate a lack of total agreement. Here's the list:
- Ramshaw Crack; 6b (these were west coast Americans - good at cracks!)
- Downhill Racer; 6c
- Long John's Slab; 6a
- Chequers Crack; 5
- Beech Nut; 5+
- Stiff Cheese; 5+
- Tales of Yankee Power; 7a
- Nightmare of Brown Donkeys; 6a+, 6a+
- Darius; 6a
- Delicatessen; 5+, 5
- Debauchery; 5
- Golden Mile; 6c+/7a
- Ceramic; 6c
- Sirplum; 5
- Bastille; 7a+
- JR; 6c+
- Cenotaph Corner; 5/5+
- Left Wall; 6a/6a+
- Resurrection; 6c
- True Grip; 6c+
- Memory Lane; 6a+
- Foil; 6b+
- Atomic Hot Rod; 7a+
- Strike; 6b+
- The Strand; 5+
- Positron; 6a+, 6a+, 6c+ (the 2nd pitch was climbed direct to the Rat Race belay, thus missing out the tricky move left into Alien)
- Citadel pitch 1; 6c+
- Big Groove; 6a+
- Mousetrap; 5
- Dream of White Horses; 4+ (I think - they said 5.7)
- Grasper; 5+, 6a
- Zukator; 5, 6c+
- Marathon Man; 7a
- Extraction; 6a+, 6a+
- Vector; 4+, 6a, 5+
- Croaker; 6b+
- Cream; 6a+, 6c
- Void; 6b+/c
- Atomic Finger Flake; 6c/c+
- Strawberries; 7c
- Vulture; 6c+
- Fingerlicker; 6b+
- Axle Attack; 6c+/7a
- Mayfair; 6c+/7a
- The New Dimension; 6a+, 6b+, 5-
- Appian way; 4+, 5-, 5, 5
- Rude Awakening; 7a
- Great Wall (Forwen); 6b
- Quickstep; 6b+/c
- Moonwind Direct; 6c+
- Space Mountain; 6c+
- Pterodactyl; 5
- Banana Moon; 6a+/b
- Mojo plus Direct finish; 5, 6a
- Freedom; 5, 5+
- The Groan; 6b, 6b+
- Sangfroid Direct; 6a/+
- The Snake; 5+, 5
- Burgess Wall; 5+, 6b
The route you're possibly all waiting for, Right Wall, was the subject of some disagreement; one guy, who followed it and thus probably had the better idea of its physical difficulty, thought 6b (5.10d) - the other, who led it, and was probably trying to incorporate something of the route's run-out nature into the grade, said 6c+ (5.11c).
Fairly evidently from the routes climbed, bearing in mind that this was thirty years ago, the American team were no slouches; the usual caveats about good climbers trying to put realistic grades on the occasional easier routes therefore apply. The few Great Orme routes that are now sport would, back then, have been mixed ethic; the odd bolt, peg or thread supplemented with leader-placed gear. The Forwen routes, due to the difficult access situation during the intervening years, may not be familiar to some people.
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Good to see Chequers Crack at 5 is as much of a sandbag as it is in UK grading.
Suspect this may be because the US climbers were better at cracks.
Good to see Chequers Crack at 5 is as much of a sandbag as it is in UK grading.
Suspect this may be because the US climbers were better at cracks.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
Thanks Chris.
This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
Thanks Chris.
In reply to biscuit:
I thought you were going to tell us you were off out to bolt them.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
>
> Thanks Chris.
>
> This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
>
> Thanks Chris.
I thought you were going to tell us you were off out to bolt them.
In reply to Ian Patterson: Ressurection is easier than right wall in my opinion. The section above the crozly pocket has about 4 sustained tricky moves. Ressurection only has one a bit above the peg. I thought the top crack was fairly straight forward and had some big holds on it!!
I did them both last year and RW is more sustained but has bigger ledges to rest on.
I did them both last year and RW is more sustained but has bigger ledges to rest on.
In reply to biscuit:
Don't forget that the REAL point of the thread is that Trad Routes often have relatively easy climbing but they feel hard!
Chris
>
> This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
>
> Thanks Chris.
> This thread has inspired me. I know it in turn was inspired by the other disparity between sport and trad thread but this has shown me that i really should be getting on more of these classics now i am regularly on-sighting 6c+. Right wall was always a distant dream but may be nearer than i thought.
>
> Thanks Chris.
Don't forget that the REAL point of the thread is that Trad Routes often have relatively easy climbing but they feel hard!
Chris
In reply to Dangerous Dave:
So which is pumpier?
> (In reply to Ian Patterson) Ressurection is easier than right wall in my opinion. ... RW is more sustained but has bigger ledges to rest on.
So which is pumpier?
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Depends which book you use I suppose. YDS is ill defined.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> Both, as far as I am aware, purport to define the physical difficulty of a section of relatively hard climbing between effective rests,
>
> Both, as far as I am aware, purport to define the physical difficulty of a section of relatively hard climbing between effective rests,
Depends which book you use I suppose. YDS is ill defined.
In reply to Dangerous Dave:
Agree - anyone who thinks RW is easier then Ressurection must have been sniffing glue.
E
Agree - anyone who thinks RW is easier then Ressurection must have been sniffing glue.
E
In reply to Enty:
Really? I thought RW was supposed to be physically easier, but bolder/more intimidating?
As such I thought I might give it a go in preference to Ressurection, although I'm less sure now ...
> anyone who thinks RW is easier then Ressurection must have been sniffing glue.
>
>
Really? I thought RW was supposed to be physically easier, but bolder/more intimidating?
As such I thought I might give it a go in preference to Ressurection, although I'm less sure now ...
In reply to Enty:
Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
Also that list has True Grip as being harder than Resurrection - it's only really one or two moves to get on the ramp then easy to the final crack which again is short lived.
French grades I'd go with (in increasing difficulty):
True Grip - F6c
Right Wall - F6c
Resurrection(RH finish) - F6c+/7a
ALC
Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
Also that list has True Grip as being harder than Resurrection - it's only really one or two moves to get on the ramp then easy to the final crack which again is short lived.
French grades I'd go with (in increasing difficulty):
True Grip - F6c
Right Wall - F6c
Resurrection(RH finish) - F6c+/7a
ALC
In reply to Enty:
And therein lies the reason we use E grades for trad and not French grades. Of course RW is a much harder lead. Anyone who thinks it isn't HAS been sniffing glue
> (In reply to Dangerous Dave)
>
> Agree - anyone who thinks RW is easier then Ressurection must have been sniffing glue.
>
> E
>
> Agree - anyone who thinks RW is easier then Ressurection must have been sniffing glue.
>
> E
And therein lies the reason we use E grades for trad and not French grades. Of course RW is a much harder lead. Anyone who thinks it isn't HAS been sniffing glue
In reply to Chris Craggs: a couple of hen cloud 3 star routes
master of reality 7b
b4xs 6c+/7a
ceasarian 7a+
chameleon 7a
borstal breakout 6c
master of reality 7b
b4xs 6c+/7a
ceasarian 7a+
chameleon 7a
borstal breakout 6c
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Pretty much what I said, and despite this RW is a bigger lead. My position is that RW has to be E5 (if a soft one) because is is so obviously a harder route than Resurrection.
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
>
> Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
> Right Wall - F6c
> Resurrection(RH finish) - F6c+/7a
>
> Resurrection(RH finish) - F6c+/7a
>
Pretty much what I said, and despite this RW is a bigger lead. My position is that RW has to be E5 (if a soft one) because is is so obviously a harder route than Resurrection.
In reply to Ian Patterson: I think I must have done the left finish but I cant remember. Anyway the route was easier in terms of french grade than RW. In answer to which is pumpier, both were similar in my opinion but RW had a section of sustained climbing that Res did not have.
Anyway who cares!
There is probably only a + grade of difference between the 2 and RW is the harder lead! Both are soft for the grade.
Anyway who cares!
There is probably only a + grade of difference between the 2 and RW is the harder lead! Both are soft for the grade.
In reply to Dangerous Dave:
Yes. There's no way on this earth that Ressurection is anywhere near approaching 7a.
E
Yes. There's no way on this earth that Ressurection is anywhere near approaching 7a.
E
In reply to a lakeland climber:
I have to disagree mate. I'll never forget the week I climbed those two routes (after all I'd waited the best part of 20 years to get on them)
I climbed Ressurection (RH finish) on the Sunday and it felt no harder than LW which was the warm up. I was so psyched I went back the following Saturday to do RW and really had to think about the moves out of the Porthole.
(that's not willy waving btw, that's just how it was)
E
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
>
>
>
> Using which finish? The RH finish is way harder than anything on Right Wall.
>
>
I have to disagree mate. I'll never forget the week I climbed those two routes (after all I'd waited the best part of 20 years to get on them)
I climbed Ressurection (RH finish) on the Sunday and it felt no harder than LW which was the warm up. I was so psyched I went back the following Saturday to do RW and really had to think about the moves out of the Porthole.
(that's not willy waving btw, that's just how it was)
E
In reply to Enty:
I've soloed them both on the same day so should have a fairly objective assessment of relative difficulty. I thought the very top of Resurrection was marginally harder than the crux (past the porthole, technically) of Right Wall but maybe it would not have been had I not been pushed for reach and having to do slightly harder moves as a result. Otherwise the two are really very similar; clearly Resurrection is better protected but in terms of difficulty they're both around 6c I think - maybe 6b+.
I've soloed them both on the same day so should have a fairly objective assessment of relative difficulty. I thought the very top of Resurrection was marginally harder than the crux (past the porthole, technically) of Right Wall but maybe it would not have been had I not been pushed for reach and having to do slightly harder moves as a result. Otherwise the two are really very similar; clearly Resurrection is better protected but in terms of difficulty they're both around 6c I think - maybe 6b+.
In reply to Hat Dude:
If you think 1982 US 5.9 is a sandbag for CQ at that time you're one strange dude.
If you think 1982 US 5.9 is a sandbag for CQ at that time you're one strange dude.
In reply to john arran:
I have to say 6b+ too. (When using french grades I can only use the grades on crags around here - I'd love to know what some of the 7a's downd at St Leger would be on gear!!)
I think for me, the top 20 foot of Ressurection is a couple of degrees less steep than RW and that makes all the difference for someone with legs like tree trunks.
E
I have to say 6b+ too. (When using french grades I can only use the grades on crags around here - I'd love to know what some of the 7a's downd at St Leger would be on gear!!)
I think for me, the top 20 foot of Ressurection is a couple of degrees less steep than RW and that makes all the difference for someone with legs like tree trunks.
E
In reply to john arran:
Ooof, that's trumped us John! I bet Joe 90 will be along soon to ask if you respected the nature of the routes or used a mat...! Of course, the penalty for you blowing any move on either route would have had exactly the same consequence on either route. The penalty for a leader blowing any moves would be very different depending on whether they were on Resurrection or Right Wall. And yes, I know I'm missing the point of the 'French grade' exercise there.
However, I still agree with Enty. I don't know about the Ariège, but where I live in the Haute Savoie I can think of loads of routes of a stamina nature (like Right Wall) that are graded harder than a route with a much harder boulder problem crux (like Resurrection) so maybe it's Brits mis-using the French grade (or indeed the French mis-using their own grade)! Interestingly though, if the French were to apply their grades to either Resurrection or Right wall, they would of course be well into the 7s!
For the person who said that now they're on-sighting 6c and would therefore now stand a chance on these routes... well that's indeed one way of looking at it and it may well work fine for you - and I hope it does. The other way is to take that 6c that you on-sighted - that's how Resurrection feels. Now lead it again but this time don't clip the bolt protecting the crux, and perhaps thread a thin bit of cord through the bolt below that and clip that instead of the hanger - that's Right Wall.
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> I've soloed them both on the same day
>
> I've soloed them both on the same day
Ooof, that's trumped us John! I bet Joe 90 will be along soon to ask if you respected the nature of the routes or used a mat...! Of course, the penalty for you blowing any move on either route would have had exactly the same consequence on either route. The penalty for a leader blowing any moves would be very different depending on whether they were on Resurrection or Right Wall. And yes, I know I'm missing the point of the 'French grade' exercise there.
However, I still agree with Enty. I don't know about the Ariège, but where I live in the Haute Savoie I can think of loads of routes of a stamina nature (like Right Wall) that are graded harder than a route with a much harder boulder problem crux (like Resurrection) so maybe it's Brits mis-using the French grade (or indeed the French mis-using their own grade)! Interestingly though, if the French were to apply their grades to either Resurrection or Right wall, they would of course be well into the 7s!
For the person who said that now they're on-sighting 6c and would therefore now stand a chance on these routes... well that's indeed one way of looking at it and it may well work fine for you - and I hope it does. The other way is to take that 6c that you on-sighted - that's how Resurrection feels. Now lead it again but this time don't clip the bolt protecting the crux, and perhaps thread a thin bit of cord through the bolt below that and clip that instead of the hanger - that's Right Wall.
In reply to jon:
Interesting indeed! Do you mean that:
a) Were these routes to exist in France in a bolted state, their grades would be well into the 7s - considerably higher than UK consensus seems to rate them?
b) Climbed in their actual (unbolted) state, a visiting French person would probably give these routes a grade well into the 7s - presumably somewhat higher than their hypothetical bolted counterparts - thus suggesting that on a trad route the French would use their system more like our overall/adjectival/E grade?
c) You were lying abjectly, possibly for comic effect?
d) none of the above?
IP
> Interestingly though, if the French were to apply their grades to either Resurrection or Right wall, they would of course be well into the 7s!>
Interesting indeed! Do you mean that:
a) Were these routes to exist in France in a bolted state, their grades would be well into the 7s - considerably higher than UK consensus seems to rate them?
b) Climbed in their actual (unbolted) state, a visiting French person would probably give these routes a grade well into the 7s - presumably somewhat higher than their hypothetical bolted counterparts - thus suggesting that on a trad route the French would use their system more like our overall/adjectival/E grade?
c) You were lying abjectly, possibly for comic effect?
d) none of the above?
IP
In reply to Ian Parsons:
If the crag was over here and the routes were climbed as terrain d'aventure, then I'm sure they'd be in the 7s.
If the crag was over here and the routes were climbed as terrain d'aventure, then I'm sure they'd be in the 7s.
In reply to jon:
Ah! That sounds like option (b) above - but chez toi, pas ici - with the last bit unanswered. To that end: would it be normal, were terrain d'aventure to be retro-bolted, for the grade to remain the same (indicating a genuine physical difficulty grade) or for it to be reduced (suggesting an initial function more in line with UK overall/adjectival/E grades)? Saying that retro-bolting wouldn't happen is cheating!
Ah! That sounds like option (b) above - but chez toi, pas ici - with the last bit unanswered. To that end: would it be normal, were terrain d'aventure to be retro-bolted, for the grade to remain the same (indicating a genuine physical difficulty grade) or for it to be reduced (suggesting an initial function more in line with UK overall/adjectival/E grades)? Saying that retro-bolting wouldn't happen is cheating!
In reply to Ian Parsons:
I'm pretty sure that:
1) The routes wouldn't get climbed as TA as they are too complicated (there's no history of that type of route ever existing here) but if they did, they'd be in the 7s.
2) There would be big double bolt lower-offs at the top of them as French climbers wouldn't be able to understand the concept of belaying at the top. This is still TA.
3) If the crag was here it WOULD be bolted and the grades would be more or less what everyone here thinks they'd be - 6c ish. I'm not sure about the 6b+ bit.
4) As such, the routes would be quite mediocre and soul-less.
5) What you said.
I'm pretty sure that:
1) The routes wouldn't get climbed as TA as they are too complicated (there's no history of that type of route ever existing here) but if they did, they'd be in the 7s.
2) There would be big double bolt lower-offs at the top of them as French climbers wouldn't be able to understand the concept of belaying at the top. This is still TA.
3) If the crag was here it WOULD be bolted and the grades would be more or less what everyone here thinks they'd be - 6c ish. I'm not sure about the 6b+ bit.
4) As such, the routes would be quite mediocre and soul-less.
5) What you said.
In reply to jon:
That possibly snookers my "ask a French person" theory; I'll just have to settle for asking an expatriate Brit - even one with "de" in his name!
That possibly snookers my "ask a French person" theory; I'll just have to settle for asking an expatriate Brit - even one with "de" in his name!
In reply to Ian Parsons: Good post Ian. Interesting they gave Mayfair and Axle Attack 6c+/7a as these are now established sport climbs with a solid 7a+ attached (that would be a good bit harder than many 7a+ in Spain / France to boot).
Gets me exicted about Forwen, definitely need to get back there. Only 2nded Space Mountain but it was superb as was Great Wall, got to be others of similar quality too...
Surprised True Grip got 6c+, very short tricky section preceded and followed by good rests but it is quite delicate.
Gets me exicted about Forwen, definitely need to get back there. Only 2nded Space Mountain but it was superb as was Great Wall, got to be others of similar quality too...
Surprised True Grip got 6c+, very short tricky section preceded and followed by good rests but it is quite delicate.
In reply to Dangerous Dave:
Is this not a contradiction in terms? Not many routes as 'broken down' as Right Wall i.e. do reachy bit, rest, do traverse bit, rest, do crux, finish? You get a good shake after the first crack section on Resurrection and I suppose the horizontal break at girdle ledge height too but surely most would agree that Resurrection is the more sustained of the 2?
> (In reply to Ian Patterson) Ressurection is easier than right wall in my opinion.
> I did them both last year and RW is more sustained but has bigger ledges to rest on.
> I did them both last year and RW is more sustained but has bigger ledges to rest on.
Is this not a contradiction in terms? Not many routes as 'broken down' as Right Wall i.e. do reachy bit, rest, do traverse bit, rest, do crux, finish? You get a good shake after the first crack section on Resurrection and I suppose the horizontal break at girdle ledge height too but surely most would agree that Resurrection is the more sustained of the 2?
In reply to kingholmesy: This is (I think) a bit of a myth, Resurrection is steady with a more physical crack section (obvious line and gear however) that felt pretty short-lived.
Right Wall requires more fitness as route reading is less obvious, you're placing some gear in a more physical position and I reckon you actually do more climbing on it i.e. longer sequences of moves.
Obviously entirely subjective.
Right Wall requires more fitness as route reading is less obvious, you're placing some gear in a more physical position and I reckon you actually do more climbing on it i.e. longer sequences of moves.
Obviously entirely subjective.
In reply to Chris Craggs: A few more here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=315050&v=1#x4654534
In reply to ksjs:
> (In reply to Ian Parsons) Good post Ian. Interesting they gave Mayfair and Axle Attack 6c+/7a as these are now established sport climbs with a solid 7a+ attached (that would be a good bit harder than many 7a+ in Spain / France to boot).
>
> Gets me exicted about Forwen, definitely need to get back there. Only 2nded Space Mountain but it was superb as was Great Wall, got to be others of similar quality too...
>
The central section is still banned though.>
> Gets me exicted about Forwen, definitely need to get back there. Only 2nded Space Mountain but it was superb as was Great Wall, got to be others of similar quality too...
>
In reply to Chris Craggs: f4,5's and the odd 6a. Makes our 'classics' all sound a bit rubbish when you strip away the hype and 'seriousness' of the trad grade.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Happily though the routes are still what they are ie classic trad routes rather than some anonymous 5+/6a etc. The grade language serves to reflect their more complex character..more than a series of numbers ever will.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) f4,5's and the odd 6a. Makes our 'classics' all sound a bit rubbish when you strip away the hype and 'seriousness' of the trad grade.
Happily though the routes are still what they are ie classic trad routes rather than some anonymous 5+/6a etc. The grade language serves to reflect their more complex character..more than a series of numbers ever will.
In reply to Lord_ash2000: Important lesson in there i.e. they're often not that hard, we are just very good at manufacturing difficulty through psychological weight. Yes, some trad may have risks but the majority does not.
Unfortunately we typically climb trad below our potential.
Unfortunately we typically climb trad below our potential.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
> The grade language serves to reflect their more complex character..more than a series of numbers ever will.
Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
In reply to ksjs:
Yes I very much think this at least. Yes there is some danger sometimes but only if you plan to fall off. People hear 'E something' and it's like it's some major undertaking, even well they probably do harder moves on the wall everyweek.
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> [...]
>
> Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
> [...]
>
> Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
Yes I very much think this at least. Yes there is some danger sometimes but only if you plan to fall off. People hear 'E something' and it's like it's some major undertaking, even well they probably do harder moves on the wall everyweek.
In reply to ksjs:
Less than useful? Seem to have worked perfectly well for a long time and most people are happy with them. I'll take the mystique though!
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> [...]
>
> Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
> [...]
>
> Or add a less than useful / accurate air of mystique to them.
Less than useful? Seem to have worked perfectly well for a long time and most people are happy with them. I'll take the mystique though!
In reply to ksjs: What I meant was that the hard section of RW (going from crozzly pocket to main ledge) is more sustained than any section of Ress. The ledges are better for resting on RW though, where as you have to rest "on-Route" on Ress.
If you are good at recovering on good holds Ress feels much easier than RW as I only noticed 1 tricky move on Ress but there were many places all the way up that you could rest on good holds.Where as RW has 2 distinctive rest ledges spaced by more sustained climbing.
Anyway its just my opinion from having climbed them both. Others may disagree. I think RW is a + french grade harder than Ress. Ress is E4 and RW is E5 although both are low in their grade. I think if you struggle or fail on Ress you probably wont manage RW.
They are both excellent routes and would be piss easy and boring if bolted!!
If you are good at recovering on good holds Ress feels much easier than RW as I only noticed 1 tricky move on Ress but there were many places all the way up that you could rest on good holds.Where as RW has 2 distinctive rest ledges spaced by more sustained climbing.
Anyway its just my opinion from having climbed them both. Others may disagree. I think RW is a + french grade harder than Ress. Ress is E4 and RW is E5 although both are low in their grade. I think if you struggle or fail on Ress you probably wont manage RW.
They are both excellent routes and would be piss easy and boring if bolted!!
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
If you don't 'plan' to fall off or at least have that scenario as a possible outcome how can you expect to improve? You need to be in situations where the outcome is unknown / you are trying the next level of difficulty up. That's how you learn. If you are constantly climbing with something in hand on the climb then the next trad grade must by extension remain a tricky and largely unknown quantity.
> (In reply to ksjs)
> [...]
>
> Yes I very much think this at least. Yes there is some danger sometimes but only if you plan to fall off.
> [...]
>
> Yes I very much think this at least. Yes there is some danger sometimes but only if you plan to fall off.
If you don't 'plan' to fall off or at least have that scenario as a possible outcome how can you expect to improve? You need to be in situations where the outcome is unknown / you are trying the next level of difficulty up. That's how you learn. If you are constantly climbing with something in hand on the climb then the next trad grade must by extension remain a tricky and largely unknown quantity.
In reply to Bulls Crack: That's been done to death but... lots of experienced climbers feel E grades at a certain level lack accuracy hence why many climbs (an increasing number probably) get described with a sport grade. E5 6a can cover Fr 6b - Fr 7a+ or maybe harder. That's 6 sport grades. Not exactly informative.
In reply to Dangerous Dave: I don't think many reckon Ressurection to be soft. If so why the interchangeability with Right Wall in difficulty terms in many discussions on grades?
If Ressurection is soft where are the E4s that are hard i.e. almost a full grade harder?
If Ressurection is soft where are the E4s that are hard i.e. almost a full grade harder?
In reply to ksjs:
More accurately they are qualified by a sport grade - the sport grade does not replace the trad grade but it is added to the trad grade when this is deemed to give more information. Similarly on short grit routes a bouldering grade can be added where this adds more information.
This is creating a 3 dimensional grading system rather than 2 so of course it has the potential to be more precise.
More accurately they are qualified by a sport grade - the sport grade does not replace the trad grade but it is added to the trad grade when this is deemed to give more information. Similarly on short grit routes a bouldering grade can be added where this adds more information.
This is creating a 3 dimensional grading system rather than 2 so of course it has the potential to be more precise.
In reply to Chris Craggs: Right Wall Fr 6b? The Axe Fr 6a+?? Ha ha, very funny Chris, when was the last time you did either of these routes, if ever? No wonder your Cote d 'Azure guide's got so many mistakes in it!
In reply to ksjs: You are probably right, Ress is correctly graded and RW is soft. Hence the argument between the 2.
In reply to Duncan Campbell:
My ten penneth:
Cenotaph Corner - awkward thrutchy crux at the top; bolts wouldn't make any difference to physical difficulty. F6a+ (I aided the crux the last time i did the corner!)
Right Wall - nothing that hard or technical for Eng 6a - fully bolted would lessen the physcial challenge because you wouldn't be carrying a monster rack (easily 20+ runners on many ascents) and the effort needed to hang around an place it. Also you wouldn't be over gripping on the crux because of the slightly run out nature of the climbing. F6b if fully bolted, f6b+/c for the trad ascent
> For starters, can there be just a 2 french grade difference between and E1 5c and a bold but safe E5 6a!?!? I don't know the answer to that. (I've not actually done the corner yet... woops!)
My ten penneth:
Cenotaph Corner - awkward thrutchy crux at the top; bolts wouldn't make any difference to physical difficulty. F6a+ (I aided the crux the last time i did the corner!)
Right Wall - nothing that hard or technical for Eng 6a - fully bolted would lessen the physcial challenge because you wouldn't be carrying a monster rack (easily 20+ runners on many ascents) and the effort needed to hang around an place it. Also you wouldn't be over gripping on the crux because of the slightly run out nature of the climbing. F6b if fully bolted, f6b+/c for the trad ascent
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I think this is a stupid idea, the trad routes aren't going to be retro-bolted so why change them from the most advanced grading system out there, to a much more simple grading system.
Especially with routes that are all about exposure, length and character. Trying to give them sport grades is just pointless.
Also you can only really give them an accurate sport grade if you have done the routes yourself. - Giving 'Right Wall' F6b? How many of these have you done yourself Chris?
I think this is a stupid idea, the trad routes aren't going to be retro-bolted so why change them from the most advanced grading system out there, to a much more simple grading system.
Especially with routes that are all about exposure, length and character. Trying to give them sport grades is just pointless.
Also you can only really give them an accurate sport grade if you have done the routes yourself. - Giving 'Right Wall' F6b? How many of these have you done yourself Chris?
In reply to Spacetourist:
Stupid idea? I thought it quite a decent idea, that was why I asked the question.
Pointless? The POINT was to suggest they are all about exposure, length and character, and not about their difficulty which is very low.
I have done all the ones on my list, and most of the others that have been mentioned.
Chris
>
> I think this is a stupid idea, the trad routes aren't going to be retro-bolted so why change them from the most advanced grading system out there, to a much more simple grading system.
> I think this is a stupid idea, the trad routes aren't going to be retro-bolted so why change them from the most advanced grading system out there, to a much more simple grading system.
Stupid idea? I thought it quite a decent idea, that was why I asked the question.
> Especially with routes that are all about exposure, length and character. Trying to give them sport grades is just pointless.
Pointless? The POINT was to suggest they are all about exposure, length and character, and not about their difficulty which is very low.
> Also you can only really give them an accurate sport grade if you have done the routes yourself. - Giving 'Right Wall' F6b? How many of these have you done yourself Chris?
I have done all the ones on my list, and most of the others that have been mentioned.
Chris
In reply to ally smith:
Thrutchy crux? No wonder you found it hard!
> (In reply to Duncan Campbell)
>
> [...]
>
> My ten penneth:
>
> Cenotaph Corner - awkward thrutchy crux at the top; bolts wouldn't make any difference to physical difficulty. F6a+ (I aided the crux the last time i did the corner!)
>
> [...]
>
> My ten penneth:
>
> Cenotaph Corner - awkward thrutchy crux at the top; bolts wouldn't make any difference to physical difficulty. F6a+ (I aided the crux the last time i did the corner!)
Thrutchy crux? No wonder you found it hard!
In reply to Spacetourist:
No it's not. Let me explain. For example, let's say you've been sport climbing for 10 years and never fallen off a 6b, find 6c ok and get most 7a's 2nd or 3rd go.
Right wall is 6b so that tells me you're more than capable of climbing it even though it gets the magical E5 grade.
I find it very useful to give Uk trad climbs French grades.
So lets say The cad is F6c - I might give it a go. I've never flashed a French 7b so I'm probably going to avoid Indian Face - geddit?
E
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>> Trying to give them sport grades is just pointless.
No it's not. Let me explain. For example, let's say you've been sport climbing for 10 years and never fallen off a 6b, find 6c ok and get most 7a's 2nd or 3rd go.
Right wall is 6b so that tells me you're more than capable of climbing it even though it gets the magical E5 grade.
I find it very useful to give Uk trad climbs French grades.
So lets say The cad is F6c - I might give it a go. I've never flashed a French 7b so I'm probably going to avoid Indian Face - geddit?
E
In reply to Enty:
That's what i was getting at earlier in the thread. RW was always a bit of a dream but it seems if i still have my trad head i am more than physically capable of climbing it. That's nice to know, but i may have to move back to the UK first.
The Jude Spanken vid on the home page shows Lord of the Flies as 5.12a (R).
So 7a+ then.
I may have to wait a bit longer for that one.
That's what i was getting at earlier in the thread. RW was always a bit of a dream but it seems if i still have my trad head i am more than physically capable of climbing it. That's nice to know, but i may have to move back to the UK first.
The Jude Spanken vid on the home page shows Lord of the Flies as 5.12a (R).
So 7a+ then.
I may have to wait a bit longer for that one.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
As we're already on topic why not consider the Pylon King approach to grading multi pitch trad climbs whereby you give an overall grade for each pitch as well as a technical one.
As we're already on topic why not consider the Pylon King approach to grading multi pitch trad climbs whereby you give an overall grade for each pitch as well as a technical one.
In reply to Enty:
I completely agree with this view Enty.
I've always thought that French grades provide an indication of the physical difficulty of climbing a route from bottom to top.
The British system provides two other forms of 'difficulty' infomation and is far more suited to grading trad routes than is the French system.
If however you have the holy trinity of two british and one french grades for a given trad route then you pretty much know if your going to get up the damn thing.
> No it's not. Let me explain.
I completely agree with this view Enty.
I've always thought that French grades provide an indication of the physical difficulty of climbing a route from bottom to top.
The British system provides two other forms of 'difficulty' infomation and is far more suited to grading trad routes than is the French system.
If however you have the holy trinity of two british and one french grades for a given trad route then you pretty much know if your going to get up the damn thing.
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