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I fell today

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 anomm 27 May 2012
Was out sport climbing with a friend this evening however it ended pretty badly. I was getting lowered down after completing the climb when my belayer slipped and let go of the rope!

I was more than half of the climb down so fell pretty far, hit the ground - and as we were on a ledge i then tumbled down even further. It was the scariest thing thats ever happened and at the bottom I was extremely dazed but quite astonishingly un-seriously hurt.

I'd just like to say that my helmet saved my life here as it bashed against the rock hard. I very often forget to put on my helmet before a climb but would advise no-matter how easy a route is I would ALLWAYS wear it as sometimes it may not even be your fault but the belayers. (I tried not to be too hard on my belayer as he was obviously so shocked and was almost as scared as me.

I do have pretty sore feet from the impact, brouses and covered in scratches. I'm not too sure why I posted it here but I suppose I hope it will make people use helmets, even on sport climbs. I can't stop re-living the moment and hope I can bring myself to climb in the near future

Thanks for reading all that, I know its quite alot
Tim Chappell 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

New belayer time.
 Tall Clare 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

Glad you're okay.

I slipped 50ft down a crag a few years ago whilst walking off, thankfully still wearing my helmet as when I came to a stop, a tennis ball sized rock smacked me on the head. Very glad I was wasn't bareheaded!

I know it's personal choice but I prefer to wear my helmet.
 Booey 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm: There goes the lesson, always use a helmet.
In reply to anomm: A good reason for using a GriGri! glad you're not more seriously injured. Accidents happen to the best of us. don't let it put you off going out your comfort zone as this just seems like one of those silly little accidents that rarely happen.

Hope you heal quickly and get back on it!
 Tom Last 27 May 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell:
> (In reply to anomm)
>
> New belayer time.

Yeah sack them off.
 The Lemming 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

I'm glad that you are OK.

helmets, like belayers are a personal choice.

Unless you know the belayer, trust them implicitly and have a lot of climbing history under your belt with them, never let them hold the rope again for you. What good is a helmet if you can't trust the belayer?
Removed User 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Hmmm. The helmet did not necessarily 'save your life', how could you establish that?

The lesson here is not that you should aways wear a helmet, it is that you should choose you belayers more carefully!
Removed User 27 May 2012
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
> (In reply to anomm) A good reason for using a GriGri!

That's not a very good reason for using a GriGri, in fact that's really bad to say that, it sounds like you are saying they are foolproof; they are not. Even with using a GriGri this could have easily panned out the same.
Bimbler 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

Glad you got away with it. Maybe you should have put taken a bouldering mat too.

Interesting that you fell from a ledge afterwords, maybe get them to stand at the bottom next time (if there is a next time!)
In reply to Removed User: why is it a really bad thing to say. i am fairly certain that a gri gri would have prevented some of what happened i.e. being dropped through letting go of the rope!
I am not saying they are fool proof but they are not as dangerous as people get told they are!
 Dave 88 27 May 2012
In reply to Removed User:

Yeah, I'd rather a tubular plate with a good belayer, than a grigri and a bad belayer.

Hope you're ok mate. Obviously don't know the full story but from the sounds of things, I'd be having a rather strong word with the belayer.
 Mike Nolan 27 May 2012
In reply to Removed User: We must use different GriGris. The chance of something like this happening with a Grigri is miles smaller. It's wrong to say that it could have easily happened with one.
Removed User 27 May 2012
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

See. In the first instance you said it was a good reason to use a GriGri, thereby implying that the fall would not have happened. Second post you caveat it by saying 'prevented some', and 'I'm not saying they are foolproof'.

Yes. They are not as dangerous as what people get told, but the premis is that you still need to keep your hand on the dead rope at all times. In this instance the fact that the belayer slipped/fell himself, means that the holding action of the GriGri could have been compromised.

Anyway, glad to hear that the OP is alright; and that's the main thing.
In reply to Dave 88: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say...

'there is no way that even a bad belayer would have dropped the OP using a GriGri by falling over and instinctively putting their hands out to break their fall'
 Dave 88 27 May 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:

I think what he meant was that it's no substitute for a good belayer and that the advice shouldn't be to get a grigri, rather it should be change belayer!
 Dave 88 27 May 2012
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Yeah more-or-less true. See my comment above though.
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to Removed Userhighclimber)
>
> but the premis is that you still need to keep your hand on the dead rope at all times.

No you don't, not unless its a ridiculously skinny rope!

>In this instance the fact that the belayer slipped/fell himself, means that the holding action of the GriGri could have been compromised.

No it wouldn't the force of the climber and the belayer falling would have engaged the cam.
>
>


 poeticshambles 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Wow, I'm glad you're ok, sounds as if it could have been a lot worse. Take care, hope it doesn't ruin future climbing too much.
 Jon_Warner 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

Glad you're ok.

If it was a one-off I'd think carefully before being too hard on your belayer. (Having been in similar but less serious situations both ways!)
Some possible lessons:

Check your rope isn't too skinny or slick for your belay
Climb with someone you trust
... but accidents DO happen
Wear a helmet
Consider using a gri gri
Pick a rope that suits a gri gri


 JamButty 27 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Glad you sound ok, but if you say you've got sore feet how did you fall? Don't want to be alarmist but if you landed on your heels theres a risk of it transferring up the spine.
Any pain I suggest you get it checked out...
In reply to anomm:
I once asked at a popular climbing wall what the frequency of belay accidents (drops) was with grigris and other devices. They said about the same. I am not sure of the proportion of belayers using grigris but it is substantial so clearly people are dropped by grigri and other belayers with a similar frequency despite the mechanical arguments rehearsed above. Maybe belayers instinctively grab the grigri and unlock it under some situations?
 Skyfall 28 May 2012
In reply to harold walmsley:

Or maybe they have too much slack out ... Lots of possible reasons. Though I'm no real fan of them, I can see the advantages of a gri gri in some situations.
 bpmclimb 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

my belayer slipped and let go of the rope!
>

It's difficult to comment constructively without actually having seen the incident. However, since you post here and invite speculation ...

Perhaps the belayer slipping and letting go of the rope indicates that he/she wasn't standing in a safe position. The lowest point in the immediate surroundings is usually best, but it's quite common to see belayers standing in a position from which they could take a tumble.
 KiwiPrincess 28 May 2012
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Ah...Yes you do!
A piece of grit, Grass seed, ice etc could prevent the cam from Locking. Even Petzl say to never take hand off the rope.
Only once locked can you but I tend just to give a little slack,so weight off my hand.
 Nigel Evans 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Scary, I hope you don't get too spooked by this. There are a couple of points here:

Potential back injury - don't stress over it but definitely be aware if any pain develops and get it checked out. If you do get pain it would also be useful to be able to tell the doc what happens to it if you lie down, jar your body, bend over, twist or do anything else that works your back.

As far as your belayer goes, none of us were there so it's difficult to be too critical. BUT you have to question what he was doing to cause a slip while he was lowering you. He was either moving around (which compromises your safety when you're dangling) and stepped on something slippery or he was on slippery ground to start, in which case could he have found a more stable stance?

I don't really have much truck with the argument that it's instinctive to put your arm out and let go of the rope either. As a belayer you hang on to that end come what may, it's not difficult as anyone who has ever stumbled while carrying something fragile or important like a baby or a pint will be able to tell you - you just don't let go to save yourself. The only thing that should separate a belayer's hand from the rope is something like a serious impact, say if he fell, and that takes us back to the previouse point.

What you really need to do is have a conversation with him to analyse the incident, see what both of you can learn from it. Then you can decide if you're prepared to put your life in his hands again.

Oh yes, the helmet: Always a contentious issue but if you hit your head hard on something on the way down then it may well have saved your life. Certainly it prevented a significant head injury.
 mmmhumous 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

Glad you're mnot too seriosly injured.

After yesturday's fall, another vote hear for always wearing your lid (I too almost didn't bother. In nothing else, it saved the air ambulance a tip out, and kept my favourite head in once piece!..... Anyway... time for some more lovely pain-killers.
 koalapie 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: I'd agree with a few of the others who suggest if you had been using a grigri your belayer fell and dropped the rope during impact it's very likely the grigri would have locked and you would not have hit the ground (given there wasn't too much rope out). I see this as one of their major advantages. Not 100% guaranteed but certainly a much higher probability of this occuring than with a belay plate. Hope you are ok and get your climbing head back on.
hope you are ok and get better soon

in regards to the GriGri -

yes the belayer shouldnt have taken their hands off the rope but when you fall it is natural to use your hands to break a fall and a GriGri in that situation would 9X out of 10 would have arrested correctly with or without the belayers hand on the rope(where it SHOULD be).
i believe a GriGri should be treated as a belay device and not an autolock because it isnt! the belayers hand should always be on the dead rope but in that situation i think a GriGri would have helped as it would have particaly slowed the rope down if nothing else.
these are my thoughts on it but as i wasnt there i cant say too much, i think the most important thing is that theOP is not seriously injured!
but consider a new belayer or work with the one you have on improving their skills at the wall.
 Enty 28 May 2012
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to Removed Userhighclimber)
> [...]
>
> That's not a very good reason for using a GriGri, in fact that's really bad to say that, it sounds like you are saying they are foolproof; they are not. Even with using a GriGri this could have easily panned out the same.

You are right to say Grigris are not foolproof but I'd rather go for the 99 times out of 100 when a Grigri would prevent something like this.

E
 James Malloch 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Glad you're okay!

Without meaning to criticize, when lowering someone, how can you fall without letting go of the rope first?

Surely if you slip and hold on, you just stay in the same position or maybe swing a little bit due to the weight of the climber? Unless you slip and swing into the crag maybe?
 Voltemands 28 May 2012
In reply to James Malloch:
> (In reply to anomm) Glad you're okay!

> Surely if you slip and hold on, you just stay in the same position or maybe swing a little bit due to the weight of the climber? Unless you slip and swing into the crag maybe?

+1 ^^. I'm pretty sure even if I was being a dumb*ss and standing in a silly place, then slipped, I'd still be holding the rope firmly if I hit the crag wall.
 Neil Williams 28 May 2012
In reply to Voltemands:

That's where a climber has to counter instinct. Instinct is to put your hand out, but a belayer needs to know that they must not put their dead-rope hand out even if not to do so is going to hurt.

Neil
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to anomm) Hmmm. The helmet did not necessarily 'save your life', how could you establish that?
>
> The lesson here is not that you should aways wear a helmet, it is that you should choose you belayers more carefully!

Pointless troll.

We all make mistakes and a measured response to a significant near miss is what's required.

Others have stated the medical stuff about backs etc so wont go there.

A few days afterwards now you are both a bit calmer, you need to discuss the incident, get some decent advice, go back to that spot and analyse the circumstances and then make a reasoned and informed decision.

You havent mentioned your skills nor the skills of your belayer and as such, if you are both 10 year plus 3 times a week climbers then ditching a sound partner with whom you have climbed hundreds of times might be a bit baby and bath water.

The hemlet issue will always be contentious as I guess some dont think they go well with their bare chests (and the lads) and dreadlocks . Fact is, whilst there is no cast iron 'proof' that it saved his life, you can't bet against him having scrambled brains if he had hit his head awkwardly without the helmet.

Remember the lovely, late Natasha Richardson and partner of Liam Neeson who hit her head awkwardly falling whilst on skis - a few feet and not at speed. She's dead now

Glad the OP is OK.
OP anomm 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Thanks to everyone who is concerned. I do need to speak to my belayer and really evaluate what went wrong and I'm definetely going to have a week or two break I think. He is a good friend and I've been climbing with him for about 6 years so this was just some stupid mistake but i do admit I am nervous about climbing with him again

Anyway the thing is the fall happened so quickly I'm not too sure how I landed. But today my foot is really quite painfull. I can walk on it ok so it wouldnt be broken would it?
 Voltemands 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Maybe sprained a little? I think there can be delay in presenting symptoms. I came off my mtb doing some downhill in feb and my wrist was a little achey, but ~12 hours later - Bam, very painful wrist that looked like the elephant man's.
 jkarran 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

> Thanks to everyone who is concerned. I do need to speak to my belayer and really evaluate what went wrong and I'm definetely going to have a week or two break I think. He is a good friend and I've been climbing with him for about 6 years so this was just some stupid mistake but i do admit I am nervous about climbing with him again

If he was as shaken as you he's probably the least likely person to ever drop you again. Accidents and mistakes happen.

A GriGri is nice for sport, it's no substitute for a competent belayer but it's a good addition to one. I know my belayers are capable and attentive, I've climbed with most of them for years but I still feel happier knowing there's a GriGri down there in case something unexpected happens. If nothing else the 'new gadget' might help you both get your confidence back.

> Anyway the thing is the fall happened so quickly I'm not too sure how I landed. But today my foot is really quite painfull. I can walk on it ok so it wouldnt be broken would it?

If you think it might be then get it checked out, better to know than risk weeks of pain and complications.
jk
 Kemics 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

A GriGri is no substitute for good belaying....but it's a damn good supplement

I always keep a hand on the dead rope in all circumstances. But it's one less thing to worry about if a loose rock hits me on the head and knocks me out...or whatever happens.

I'd even go as far to say that a GriGri's cam is going to catch a fall on a 9.8 sport rope 100% of the time. The only exception is if you grab the cam....but that's like saying cooking is dangerous because you might stab yourself. You'd have to be proper clueless to grab a grigri's cam in a fall. The only time I felt it was a little sketchy was using a 9.1 skinny but it was with a tiny petite lady.
 Paul Hy 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: this whole thing about GriGri is b******ks, i know it is a natural instinct to put hands out to stop yourself if stumbing, but the belayer should never have put himself in that position in the first place and with 6 years experience, should have got a mind set so as to not let go and take what ever pain comes his way, coz it'll be a lot less than that of the falling climber. lets not forget Climbing is a dangerous sport.

I climb trad mostly in which you should NEVER use a grigri. I use belay plate when sport climbing, why complicate things.

Btw i fully agree with using a lid, we've had a few instances later where they have saved very seriuous injuries or even death.
 tallsteve 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm: Two cautionary tales;
1) A mate was abseiling down a sea cliff when a rock was dislodged by the rope. It glanced off his helmet hard enough to crack it from ear to top, and distorted it enough to cut his ear badly. He arrived at the bottom dazed and with a sore neck. The rock just missed us all waiting at the bottom. Morals - wear a helmet, and don't stand at the bottom of the climb/abseil.
2) Whilst about to lower the wife into a pool in a Costa Blanca gorge I was detracted by my daughter and hadn't locked off the tuber completely pre the descent. My wife chose that moment to launch herself off. Despite having the dead rope in hand I was unable to control the descent once she had picked up speed. Luckily the pool was deep and she just had a bit of a splash down. Had it been a leader fall the tuber would have been useless. Moral - dump the tuber asap and get something with more snagging power!
 EZ 28 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:

Agree. Gri Gri isn't the answer. They have a purpose or two but not to compensate for bad belaying.

One of our party took an 8m near ground fall after a piece of gear ripped, the belayer became surprised and in that moment let go of the brake line. He arrested the fall by grabbing the live side of the rope, burns and all, and kudos to him! He knew exactly what went on, understood the gravity and with some thoughtful conversation has never exhibited that sort of risk since.

Just express your concerns to your belayer and enter into a conversation about it. Then make what will seem like a very easy decision about whether to continue climbing with them.

Also, consider the belayer's situation for them next time and if you need to anchor them to prevent slipping then do so before you leave the ground.

Glad you're OK.
 Kemics 28 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:
>
> I climb trad mostly in which you should NEVER use a grigri. I use belay plate when sport climbing, why complicate things.
>

Total hijack - but I thought that's a complete myth. Recently taken and caught 10 meter (ish) trad falls on a grigri.
 Ally Smith 28 May 2012
> A GriGri is nice for sport, it's no substitute for a competent belayer but it's a good addition to one. I know my belayers are capable and attentive, I've climbed with most of them for years but I still feel happier knowing there's a GriGri down there in case something unexpected happens. If nothing else the 'new gadget' might help you both get your confidence back.

I've a complete grigri convert and have much more faith in ANY belayer that a grigri much improves their odds of holding a fall: Stoned/high belayer+grigri = just about tolerable as there was no one else around. Same white powder nose belayer and an ATC = no chance.

Helmets and sport routes on the other hand; fine if it's chossy easy angled UK sport (Probably <f6b and in a quarry, possibly developed by GG?) but the majority of well travelled steep UK sport and everything i've ever climbed in Europe (multipitch excepting) then helmets don't offer any advantage in falls, even inverted ones.
 Mike Nolan 28 May 2012
In reply to Kemics: Yeah, I agree. Using a Grigri for trad isn't as much of a death trap as people make out. Anyone with half a brain can use a Grigri just as effectively as a traditional belay device when trying to belay dynamically etc.

Glad the OP is ok any how. The posts about not letting go of the rope no matter what are interesting. I would have thought the natural instinct would be to hold onto the dead rope really tightly, surely you'd subconsciously know you aren't going to fall very far due to the rope?

It kind of implies the belayer isn't very experienced. Or perhaps the OP is a lot heavier and was using a thin rope so the belayer was really fighting to hold onto the rope anyway.

Mike
 HenryC 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

By the same logic is another conclusion: Don't sport climb? Ifyou had topped out like an honest trad climber you wouldn't have needed to lower!

Not helpful,I know, but in line with many of the other comments here.

 Fraser 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

Glad you're okay but as others have said, I'd think about belayer replacement. A Gri-gri would almost certainly have prevented the accident, but a decent belayer would have too. What did they say afterwards?
 loundsy 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

not wishing to bash your belayer too much but letting go of the rope is pretty bad I know instinct and all that but as others have said if he was lowering you how did he fall?

I have taken a couple of long trad falls one memorable one slipping off forbidden fruits at St Govans East I was 10 foot above my last runner, I weigh about 2-3 stone more than my wife who was belaying, she hit the roof above her with both hands and didn't let go despite skinning her knuckles!

Gri-Gri is great on sport routes and maybe for single rope trad but not feasable in pembroke I doubt.

Tim
 Rachel Slater 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

This post reminds me why I don't let most people in my university club belay me ever.
 Peakpdr 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:

There is another thread that springs to mind

Do sport climbers make better belayers..Nope

 Jimbo C 28 May 2012
In reply to anomm:
>
> today my foot is really quite painfull. I can walk on it ok so it wouldnt be broken would it?

A friend once demonstrated that it is indeed possible to walk around on a broken heel (albeit with considerable pain). He fell 10ft ish onto a rock ledge and hobbled for 2 weeks before getting an x-ray.

Glad you walked away.

 Dave 88 28 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:
>
> I climb trad mostly in which you should NEVER use a grigri.

Absolute nonsense! Why wouldn't you?

 Kemics 28 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:
> (In reply to Paul Hy)
> [...]
>
> Absolute nonsense! Why wouldn't you?

cause the added force will make all your cams rip :P
 jkarran 28 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:

> I climb trad mostly in which you should NEVER use a grigri. I use belay plate when sport climbing, why complicate things.

This guff pretty much explains the preceding nonsense.

Even very experienced climbers make mistakes, accidents happen. Ok, a competent belayer should never drop someone they're lowering but it happens, it's one of those things. I've dropped someone. I've been dropped. It's a forgivable mistake, you learn from it then you move on. Machines like the GriGri make it less likely to happen.

Spend some hours really engaging in sport' and I promise you you'll be more than happy to 'complicate things'. As for trad, it's horses for courses, it's obviously not the only tool to have nor the first choice for most routes but occasionally it has real value.

jk
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Kemics:

Haha. Nah that was my belayer kipping on the job! Still gives me the heeby jeebies!
 Paul Hy 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:
> (In reply to Paul Hy)
> [...]
>
> Absolute nonsense! Why wouldn't you?

All i'm going to say is, have a read about dynamic belaying.
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:

You don't belay dynamically by slipping rope through the device, you move your body.
 Paul Hy 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:
> (In reply to Paul Hy)
>
> You don't belay dynamically by slipping rope through the device, you move your body.

you're right but a grigri can lock up the rope too quickly which puts big pressure on the gear which can make them fail whether it be the gear or the rock around itself.

btw. it's difficult to move when your tied onto anchor whether on a multi-pitch or when the at bottom!
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:
> (In reply to Dave 88)
> [...]
>
> you're right but a grigri can lock up the rope too quickly which puts big pressure on the gear which can make them fail whether it be the gear or the rock around itself.

That's not correct. On the whole, if there is even the slightest chance of gear ripping simply because of an un-dynamic belay, I'd seriously look at your placements.
>
> btw. it's difficult to move when your tied onto anchor whether on a multi-pitch or when the at bottom!

That's true, by you can still give a dynamic fall without slipping rope through the plate.

 Paul Hy 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88: i'll agree to differ, you have your opinion, but I'll not climb trad with a belayer who had a grigri or similar. i think my original point was the belayer should pay more attention to his surroundings than relying on a piece of equipment.
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:

Well Steve McLure didn't seem to mind Sonny Trotter using one to belay him on Raphsody.

In the last month I've taken and held trad falls of about 10m with no problem (other than brown under crackers!).
 3 Names 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:

Of course not, he is an experienced climber, using his judgment.
 koalapie 29 May 2012
In reply to Vince McNally: +1, does anyone let rope through the belay plate whilst arresting a fall to give a dynamic belay!? I don't, and certainly wouldn't want my belayer to do it whilst I'm climbing! I mean #*%^, dodgy gear that's about to get ripped out and belayer letting rope out whilst you are falling just to try and keep it in, no wonder were all into sport climbing!
benallan 29 May 2012
In reply to Paul Hy:
> the belayer should pay more attention to his surroundings than relying on a piece of equipment.

But you rely on a dynamic belay to stop your gear ripping?

benallan 29 May 2012
In reply to anomm:


my twopennethworth - there doesn't sound like there is any reasonable excuse as to why the belayer let go of the rope, personaly I wouldn't be asking him to belay me ever again.
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:

My point was that if a grigri is safe to use on Raphsody, it's gonna be good enough on other routes.

To say that a grigri is dangerous to use on trad is nonsense. To say that you must slip rope through the device or your gear will rip, is dangerous nonsense.
In reply to anomm:

Why are we having all this bollox about helmets and grigris? Someone tell it like it is, for God's sake.

The fact of the matter is that this is not just one of those things which happens. It is The Thing Which Must Not Happen.

When it does, it's not about equipment.

The odds are overwhelming that your former belayer is a dangerous fool.

They can be as shocked and scared as they like, and it's all very well not being too hard on them. Still and all, if I was you, I wouldn't climb with them again until they've proved different.

jcm
 dunc56 29 May 2012
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: like +1
 Jonny2vests 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:
> (In reply to Paul Hy)
>
> Well Steve McLure didn't seem to mind Sonny Trotter using one to belay him on Raphsody.
>

Lol, that's hardly a typical case Dave.

 3 Names 29 May 2012
In reply to Dave 88:

I know, I was backing you up dude.
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:

Sorry mate, mis-read that.
 3 Names 29 May 2012
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

spot on
 Dave 88 29 May 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

Haha standard Internet debate winning technique; reference the most extreme case possible!
 hexcentric 29 May 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Dave 88)
> [...]
>
> Lol, that's hardly a typical case Dave.

No - it's worse, it's a very long fall onto very small gear: exactly the sort of situation where the impact forces would be of concern and yet two very, very experinced climbers didn't think that using the Gri Gri generated any extra risk at all...... Hmmmmmmm..... What would you draw from that?

 Jonny2vests 29 May 2012
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> What would you draw from that?

Isn't the gear on Rhapsody pretty good? McClure doesn't do death routes.

And the reason they use a grigri is to limit the fall. Ergo, its a special case.
 hexcentric 29 May 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: The gear on Rhapsody is (I think) a BD Micro Stoppper 2 (or 3?). Either way it's in a placement which is bomber unless the wire snaps. Given that it's at best a 5kn rated piece though, you'd have to figure that was possible (Dave Mac snapped more than one during his attempts) so if they thought the Grigri was going to deliver extra impact, I very much doubt they'd have used it. And they weren't trying to limit the fall at all, they deliberately left the belayer unanchored to soften the slams at the expense of extra distance, unlike Dave Mac.

I say again - it's not a special case, it's a perfect example to show there is fundamentally no problem with Grigris on trad. If there was a time when the use of one wouldn't be appropriate (long fall, weak gear), that would have been it and yet two very experienced people chose to use one and did so with perfect results.
C3-P0 29 May 2012
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to anomm)
>
> Why are we having all this bollox about helmets and grigris? Someone tell it like it is, for God's sake.
>
> The fact of the matter is that this is not just one of those things which happens. It is The Thing Which Must Not Happen.
>
> When it does, it's not about equipment.
>
> The odds are overwhelming that your former belayer is a dangerous fool.
>
> They can be as shocked and scared as they like, and it's all very well not being too hard on them. Still and all, if I was you, I wouldn't climb with them again until they've proved different.
>
> jcm

I think that just about brings the discussion to a close. Falling over when holding a weighted rope that's pulling you upwards is difficult. I've lost my balance before dodging rockfall but you instinctively keep hold of the rope to regain it or to prevent hitting the ground.
 Jonny2vests 29 May 2012
In reply to hexcentric:

If Dave Mac snapped a few, then obviously its not the only piece.

And the fact that a grigri delivers more impact force is not in doubt. Its whether you think its significant, and whether you're willing to live with that to offset some other factor.
 bpmclimb 30 May 2012
In reply to all:

Anyone know what the current MLT position is on this? When I did SPA (some years ago) the Grigri was classified as a "grabbing" device and as such was deemed unsuitable for belaying a leader on trad. Perhaps this has changed?
 AlanLittle 30 May 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:

And the people designing the SPA syllabus have more relevant experience than Sonnie Trotter, Steve McClure, or Will Gadd who recommends grigris for ice climbing? I suspect not.

And - although I agree with JCM, The Belayer Does Not Let Go No Matter What(*) - this is a case where a grigri probably would have saved the day.

(*) I am reminded of an incident I once saw at St Govans. Leader obviously struggling on Clean Hand Blues Band. His belayer - an idiot - is lounging on his back at ease on a boulder some way back from the foot of the crag. Leader falls, launching belayer. All gear except the top piece pulls. Leader on the way down collides with belayer on the way up - I hope it hurt - and both end up dangling a little way off the deck from the one remaining piece of gear. But the belayer, to his credit, although an idiot, Did Not Let Go.
 Simon Caldwell 30 May 2012
In reply to AlanLittle:

What is appropriate for those at the cutting edge is not necessarily appropriate for the masses.
 Hannes 30 May 2012
In reply to anomm: I would trust a grigri on trad. If it was so dangerous to use on semi dodgy placements, do you think it'd be the standard belay device for aid climbing where the ratio of dodgy placements is far higher than you'd get on a trad climb at VS, which is I believe the average grade climbed?

The reason I don't use one is simply because I prefer halves for trad in general.
 AlanLittle 30 May 2012
In reply to Hannes:

It also occurs to me that when I started climbing sticht plates were the norm for UK trad climbing. Munter hitches still are for climbing on dodgy pegs in the Alps. Both bite quite a bit harder than a modern ATC-type device.
 hexcentric 30 May 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to hexcentric)
>> And the fact that a grigri delivers more impact force is not in doubt. Its whether you think its significant,

Well if it's not significant and I would suggest that it is not (as I suspect would Dave Mac, Mclure, Gadd etc also) then why shouldn't one be used for trad when you feel like it?

There are plenty of times I don't use a grigri for trad (I rarely do) but that's more down to being heavy and bulky, or wanting to handle doubles than becasuse of some microscopically higher percieved impact force. To suggesat that doing so is dangerous just seems, well.. silly.
In reply to AlanLittle:

>And - although I agree with JCM, The Belayer Does Not Let Go No Matter What(*) - this is a case where a grigri probably would have saved the day.

Not sure about that. If someone's going to let go of the rope with a traditional device they're quite capable of grabbing at the handle of a gri-gri to save themselves.

Nothing is proof against a sufficiently talented fool. The trick is to avoid the latter.

jcm
 bpmclimb 31 May 2012
In reply to AlanLittle:
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> And the people designing the SPA syllabus have more relevant experience than Sonnie Trotter, Steve McClure, or Will Gadd who recommends grigris for ice climbing? I suspect not.

Your post comes across as a bit of a put-down. I was just asking a simple question, out of interest - does the mountain leader training scheme still say Grigri not suitable for trad, like they used to? I wasn't comparing the relevant experience of any particular group with any other.
 Jonny2vests 31 May 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to AlanLittle)
> [...]
>
> Your post comes across as a bit of a put-down. I was just asking a simple question, out of interest - does the mountain leader training scheme still say Grigri not suitable for trad, like they used to? I wasn't comparing the relevant experience of any particular group with any other.

Using a grigri for trad is generally not considered best practice at places like PyB.
 Jonny2vests 31 May 2012
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)

> ...becasuse of some microscopically higher percieved impact force. To suggesat that doing so is dangerous just seems, well.. silly.

I think its you who are perceiving. Maybe it is microscopic, I honestly don't know, but I'm not willing to guess.
 AlanLittle 31 May 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:
>
> Your post comes across as a bit of a put-down.

Sorry. Not intended as a put-down of you personally. I was/am rather irritated by the fact that, when some people pointed out that in this particular scenario a grigri might have improved the situation, other people promptly started spouting about how a grigri can be wrongly used, isn't the answer to everything etc etc., as if anybody had suggested any such thing. Those were the people I wanted to put down.

I suppose expecting anything better of an internet discussion forum was naive of me. Some people for whatever reasons dislike Piece Of Equipment A or believe its advantage are grossly oversold by others, so whenever they see Piece Of Equipment A mentioned in a positive light they reflexively trot out their list of Piece Of Equipment A's disadvantages, whether or not they are relevant to the scenario being discussed and in a manner that suggests they think users of Piece Of Equipment A are morons who are unaware of the fact that it - like any other piece of equipment - has its stronger and its weaker points and needs to be used correctly.

(I don't use a grigri for trad either, but since I always belay the leader off my harness not the anchor on multipitch - a habit which tends to trigger reflexive spouting from old school alpinists over here where I live - and generally tie in to the anchor with the rope(s) not with slings or static cord, I really don't think the hardness of catch of my belay device is really going to make a significant difference to anything. I already have so many other dynamic/shock absorbing links in the chain)

 AlanLittle 31 May 2012
It also occurs to me that the (my, at any rate) main safety worry in multipitch trad isn't whether my belay device can generate enough force to break an RP, it is the Factor 2 directly onto the belay. Here Jim Titt's studies suggest that the chances of holding such a fall using an ATC without gloves are really rather low, and an assisted locking device, or the continental practice of a munter hitch directly on the anchor, have obvious advantages.

It has been a real eye-opener for me in the last couple of years to be exposed to different climbing cultures than the uk trad with which I grew up, and to learn that sport climbing and continental style alpine "trad" have their own different ways of doing things that are equally valid, sometimes better for their particular circumstances, sometimes just different.

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