UKC

I read yet another grade debate thread just now and thought this:
Clearly a lot of people measure the size of their achievement using grades and that is perfectly logical. Also clearly when breaking into a new grade, you go around looking for a nice soft touch to ease you into it.

So, when someone asks "what grade have you on sighted / how hard do you climb" or any other way of putting it, what grade do you claim? Do you claim a grade if you have done one route that hard? How about if it is widely regarded to be so soft it is actually the grade below? Do you quote whatever the highest guidebook grade you can get for it is? Do you claim it even when you know in your own heart that it isn't hard enough to warrant the grade?

My answer is that I will take a grade if it is soft but not if I know it is just plain wrong. I'll say I've climbed grade XXX but I feel the need to qualify that if I have only done one climb at the grade, I feel a lot happier making a claim if I have done a few at the grade.

NB. This isn't a competition but you will lose if you mention an off vertical climb with between two and four small rocks in it.

In reply to henwardian: I always state the Technical grade of the hardest route i've done if someone asks. I.e I'd say I was a comfortable english 5b climber though I have climbed 5c.

In reply to henwardian:

If asked, which is quite rare, I usually state the sort of grade that I am comfortably climbing at the moment. If pushed, I will say what my hardest grade is, and qualify it with certain caveats (i.e. my highest graded trad routes are little more than highballs).

Sport and bouldering are far simpler than trad. There doesn't seem to be as much variation in grade within a grade.

In reply to henwardian: That's really several questions. If I'm asked what grade I climb at I would quote the grade that I climb at regularly so just climbing one or two would not count, it needs to be consistent. If on the other hand, and as asked on here when you fill in a profile, what is your hardest lead I would quote exactly that even if it was only one or two climbs. There are as many "hard touches" as there are "soft touches" so that's swings and roundabouts so I go with the grade in the definitive guide at that time. If I had to rest or pull on gear I would probably mention it at some point but I wouldn't go out of my way to justify it to anyone. I climb for myself and not others so I don't care if they think I "cheated".

Al

In reply to henwardian: I always give an outrageous value 3 grades above what I can do on a tight top rope and then qualify the statement with 'on a good day'.

This covers all bases without damaging ego or credibility and the chicks love it...

In reply to henwardian:

I used to care, but now I don't even bother ticking routes in guidebooks anymore let alone logging them.

For what its worth, I think that if you can climb 90% of routes of any grade picked at random across different lengths and rock types and styles, you are justified at calling yourself a leader at that grade. Your best grade is probably 2 higher and your solid grade maybe a grade or two lower.

In reply to henwardian:

I'm generally very conservative when I state the grade I climb at, otherwise they might suggest a sandbag as a starter. I also tend to give my comfortable leading grade which these days is around Severe. Then I know I can follow harder and if we finish up on a VS or even HVS I'll still probably be able to lead it.

In reply to henwardian: It depends on the tense of the question - the grade I am currently climbing is different from the grade I have climbed. I am pretty sure that distinction also holds true for a large fraction of climbers.

In general, I'd probably say I climb E2/E3 and f7a sport on the basis that I flashed a f7a and seconded E3 on some of my rather limited recent climbing (4 days in 18 months!). However, depending on who I was speaking to I might choose to say I've onsighted E5 and f7b. If feel both are entirely appropriate and correct.

In reply to Trangia:

Lol, that doesn't work with one of my climbing partners - I have ended up warming up on a f7a whenever I've gone climbing with him recently.

The last time out, it was fine in the sense that I flashed it, but I was then so utterly boxed that I couldn't manage any other climbing all evening...

In reply to henwardian:

It depends who asks.

On lifts and partners I'd give an average grade HVS-E1 to avoid sounding elitist or setting myself up for embarrassment.

Normally I'd give my most frequent top grade of E2.

If I feel I have something to prove to someone, like on a military course where I'm asking permission to try a hard route, I'd give me top grade E4.

In reply to henwardian:


Those are two quite different questions and would elicit different responses from me.

Q1: What grade have you onsighted?

A1: My top on sight grade, as this is clearly what is being asked. In my case, if you're interested (which I doubt), E2. None of my E2's have been soft (or so I believe) but my hardest sports onsight at f6b+ was soft imo and I believe I haven't really onsighted harder thann f6b and I would say so if answering this question to someone's face.

Q2: How hard do you climb?

A2: He's not asking what grade will I always manage to onsight with any degree of certainty on any rock type. However, this is not the same as my top onsight as that's how hard I am normally climbing. So I would give an estimate of what I would have a reasonable expectation of getting up based on my current (not historic) performance on an average day out. Which is currently HVS/E1 borderline (well, it was until the injury about a month ago...).

In reply to henwardian:

Depends who's asking and why.

Someone I'm going to climb with: The best grade I might expect to lead that day and what I'd be comfortable following or swinging leads on.

Random conversation with stranger: Something vague and representative of what I do, maybe: 'HVSish and low 7s, bit more on a good day.'

jk

In reply to henwardian:

Do you mean what grade of climber do you consider yourself to be? i.e. I consider myself to be a VS climber. I have led a couple of E1 and a handful of HVS routes but VS is the grade I'm solid at and I would expect to get up most VS routes onsight in one push (except for horrible sandbags).

Another good question would be what grade do you give when asking for a partner on these forums. Do you give your max grade and mislead a potential partner who is solid at that grade and looking to take the next step, or do you give your 'solid at' grade and potentially find a partner not capable of seconding if you see soometihng you want to push your grade on?

In reply to Jimbo C:


Well, now that is another question not put by the OP and I think the accepted UKC wisdom on this one is what you think you can on-sight 99% of the time on most rock types. And for which I might also answer VS.

In reply to henwardian:

Do you quote whatever the highest guidebook grade you can get for it is? Do you claim it even when you know in your own heart that it isn't hard enough to warrant the grade?
.

Of course! Is there another way? It's a basic law of grade ownership ie you claim the highest grade for a route that has appeared anywhere ie all guide editions, magazine articles, online forums, pub conversations and that IS the grade. Anything else is just wilful under-grading put about by old skool poseurs.

In reply to henwardian:


Suppose you go out with a new partner for the first time. You get to the crag, partner says "OK, you lead first, what do you fancy?"

I think the answer to the question "What grade do you climb?" depends on what the top grade is that you will consider leading in this situation. Assuming of course that all relevant grades are available at the venue, and that you're acting responsibly, and don't reply in a way that could get you and your new partner into serious trouble, or at any rate leave you looking a bit stupid.

... So taking myself as a worked example: the hardest trad I've got up successfully was an E1. But that was on second.

And the hardest trad I've led was VS 5a. But that was a while back, when I was more in practice.

So what would I consider, if I was out climbing right now, on lead, and wasn't doing something easy to warm up? Nothing above VS 4b, I don't think.

So, right now, that's what I lead... assuming that if I picked a VS 4b, I would actually get up it, of course.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

In this case I'd probably choose a VDiff or Severe. If that goes alright and it looks like they know what they're doing, the next route might be HS or VS.

In reply to Jimbo C:

Sure. There's some indeterminacy in the method I'm suggesting, but that's probably as it should be.

Another thing that could happen: I could go out, pick a VS 4b, float up it, then my partner picks an E2 and I float up that too on second... so next lead I push up to a HVS, and the lead after that an E1, which all goes perfectly as well. Now the correct answer to "What grade do I lead?" has just gone up to E1.

Pity this is purely an imaginary example

In reply to henwardian: How long is a piece of string?

There are so many ways to answer it, and most are completely valid.

Personally I always considered it to be the grade I could on-sight on a regular consistent basis across all types of rock, either single or multi-pitch.

We can all have moments when we put in a rather exceptional performance (or two), but it is not something we can do consistently (just like we all climb crap sometimes).

In reply to henwardian: In February I headed to the Ben and met up with a climbing partner and some guy he'd been climbing with off here for a few days.
Trying to explain my level of winter experience in grades just wouldn't have worked. I'd never been on a rope in winter, other than on courses, had never led in winter but had soloed plenty, including downclimbing a D+. Saying either 'I climb D+' or I've never climbed in winter' would have been both true and misleading at the same time.
I'd be happier saying what English Tech grade I can manage - for me that says more about what I'm capable of and then qualify that with what style of climbing I've do mostly. Multipitch in Wales is hugely different to say grit in the Peak. For every soft touch there is a sandbag you've been on too...

In reply to henwardian:

I claim an operating grade, the grade that I am normally prepared to solo (usually with qualifications), a 'highest grade that I've done' (always clean onsight) and I've got one climb that is harder than my highest onsight that I think is described as clean repeat as I had done it on a [much] prior date on top rope.

In reply to henwardian:

Within each grade there will always be easier and harder routes for the grade...I just say 'low e grades'...