UKC

It's pretty standard advice for leaders which I'm sure most of you have heard. Keep you arms straight as much as possible, especially when resting and clipping.

Here's the thing: unfortunately I'm not a runt with a BMI of 19 who can hang on all day. I've got a more powerful build and generally fail on power power/enduro routes due to the simple fact I cant hang on any longer (climbing fast with better technique aside). I very very rarely have the problem you see in slim built people where they can hang on but cant pull up.

So, I tend to hang onto things in whatever way minimises force on my forearms. On small holds this is often with a bent arm (try it on the finger-board: hanging at your limit is harder, for me at least, with completely straight arms). Likewise, leaning right back on a sidepull, depending on it's position often feels more strenuous.

So is this advice body-type dependent or do I have crap technique?

-ross

In reply to quiffhanger: whatever works for you is what I teach but with an emphasis on trying things that I know will decrease energy expenditure on routes and that includes keeping your arms as straight as possible when resting.

In reply to quiffhanger:

If you have the tendon strength in your fingers then straight arms means tendons keeping you there rather than muscles. The problem for tall folk in this situation is that frequently it means that the body is farther from the rock so more weight generally is on the arms than need be, when pulling in to the rock puts generally more weight onto your feet and the legs have larger, stronger muscles in.

I climbed with a chap called Thomas who was about 6' 6" and he had a very good explanation of some of the ways that longer levers makes for harder climbing. I really wish that I could remember the way that he explained it because, not knowing anyone who has the same span as me, I always get the long reach holds with little difficulty and cause major complaints from my shorter, less spanned, partners who actually have to work for them.

I think your description is a good example of why it isn't always better to be taller, however if I had to choose I'd say I am very glad of those extra inches... aren't we all?

In reply to quiffhanger:

If you have the tendon strength in your fingers then straight arms means tendons keeping you there rather than muscles. The problem for tall folk in this situation is that frequently it means that the body is farther from the rock so more weight generally is on the arms than need be, when pulling in to the rock puts generally more weight onto your feet and the legs have larger, stronger muscles in.

I climbed with a chap called Thomas who was about 6' 6" and he had a very good explanation of some of the ways that longer levers makes for harder climbing. I really wish that I could remember the way that he explained it because, not knowing anyone who has the same span as me, I always get the long reach holds with little difficulty and cause major complaints from my shorter, less spanned, partners who actually have to work for them.

I think your description is a good example of why it isn't always better to be taller, however if I had to choose I'd say I am bvery glad of those extra inches... aren't we all?

In reply to EZ: Not sure that I totally agree. I'm 6 foot tall with a positive but not huge "ape index". I climb with a guy who is about 5ft 5" but his ape index is huge and he can often do reachy moves that I can't. The thing is that it is not very often that you stand and reach for a hold at full stretch, this is when height would count. More often than not you are reaching for a hold from a locked off arm and a good "ape index" comes into play. The other things is that with height comes weight so whilst there are times when it helps the extra weight is always there. For climbing I would sacrifice a few inches (ooh err missus)for a bigger arm span and less weight.

Al

In reply to quiffhanger:


Surely it's just glib generalised advice. Not a bad starting point but not universally useful either.

jk

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

It does cost me in weight, but I also have a 1½" longer femur (two actually) than others of similar height (confirmed by the tailor for my brother's wedding and by my local bike shop who fitted my bike to me) so I get the best of both height/length advantages. I find stretchy slabs are great, but they don't really fit this thread as there aren't too many straight arm hangs to consider.

In reply to quiffhanger:
So, I tend to hang onto things in whatever way minimises force on my forearms. On small holds this is often with a bent arm (try it on the finger-board: hanging at your limit is harder, for me at least, with completely straight arms). Likewise, leaning right back on a sidepull, depending on it's position often feels more strenuous.

So is this advice body-type dependent or do I have crap technique?

Bigger built people with a higher centre of mass will naturally benefit slightly less from straight arm hangs on some moves, but i think its really move dependant. Having shocking technique myself I tried to answer your question by watching people with good technique.
In this video: youtube.com/watch?v=0x4NuP9YTuo& at 1:20, Ondra rests with a bent arm on an undercut. Weight on his feet, which is better at this angle for these holds, as you suggested.
Watching videos, bent arms are the exception. Most top climbers redpointing hard routes (therefore usually climbing the most efficient way they can) chalk up and clip with a straight arm. The main difference is that they also pull their hips in close to the wall, keeping weight on their feet. In this video, Ondra's hips never hang away from the wall - no saggy bottom for him. I tried to find another example of Ondra or Macleod (technical masters) resting on a bent arm, but after ten minutes got bored. They rarely do it. Possibly because the stuff they are on is so steep. On more vertical walls, its obviously more likely to be more efficient to have a bent arm than on the steep stuff.
I watched your brookes features video again though, and I think I have a criticism - you end up doing inefficient/unbalanced moves because you insist on keeping two footholds all the time, rather than shifting to a more balanced position on one foothold. Just a thought. Not something you see from a technical master ; )

In reply to quiffhanger:

It sounds to me like you have not been climbing for too long, appologies if this is not the case, i don't mean to. I think perhaps the best advice you could get is to be patient. Keep on climbing and watching other people that climb harder than you.
I am sure that for you, for certain moves, you may find it more natural to use a bent arm however in general using tendon/skeletal strength is more efficient than burning through energy with major muscles.
As you move to harder moves/routes that little energy you conserve by moving as efficiently as possible will needed for crux moves and sequences.
Strength for climbing comes quite quickly but finger strength take longer to build. Someone once told me that your tendon strength can lag behind gains in muscle trength by up to two years!?

Oz.

In reply to ozbaker:

click the profile before commenting mate, helps put things in context ; )


Quiffhanger keeps looking on the UKC forums for helpful advice. It warms your heart to see such faith in the online climbing community! But you might be right ozbaker - his real problem is that he is better than all his partners.
Quiffhanger, you need some new friends to help you as you find your feet in the eighth grade. Growing up is a long process, so be patient (but not too patient - you aren't young after all. Just ignore that pension winking at you on the horizon and buy a weight belt to go with that fingerboard)

In reply to quiffhanger:

Thanks all. Despite the occasional exception does sound like it's still worth concentrating on it a bit more than I do.

@Jake: maybe so but easier said than done living in the flatlands