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After a rather large fall at the weekend that shouldn't have been more than a slump onto the bolt, which nearly resulting in a ground fall from approx 11m.
What is the best auto locking belay device out there? I own an old style gri-gri but have never liked the way you hold down the trigger to feed rope. Are there any alternatives? I have seen the Clinch device, which looked good and other devices by different manufacturers that the rope goes through the device and will lock. Is there such a thing out there that will always lock off? Having not used anything other than a grigri I'm unsure.
Any helpful advice would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Michael
What is the best auto locking belay device out there? I own an old style gri-gri but have never liked the way you hold down the trigger to feed rope. Are there any alternatives? I have seen the Clinch device, which looked good and other devices by different manufacturers that the rope goes through the device and will lock. Is there such a thing out there that will always lock off? Having not used anything other than a grigri I'm unsure.
Any helpful advice would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Michael
In reply to Mikey P:
None are auto-locking, if your belayer can´t belay with a Grigri they won´t be any safer with anything else.
None are auto-locking, if your belayer can´t belay with a Grigri they won´t be any safer with anything else.
In reply to Mikey P:
Sorry if this isn't helpful, but I have to say that rather than looking for a new device, you should be looking for a new belayer! Seriously, if they can't manage to grab the rope, then you need to sort out their belaying skills.
Or was it you belaying?
Sorry if this isn't helpful, but I have to say that rather than looking for a new device, you should be looking for a new belayer! Seriously, if they can't manage to grab the rope, then you need to sort out their belaying skills.
Or was it you belaying?
In reply to Hooo: I was climbing. I still maintain that the person belaying is a good belayer and unfortunately made a very bad mistake. Human beings aren't perfect and as such anyone can make a mistake.
I am just looking at the best way to minimise the risk whilst bolt clipping.
I am just looking at the best way to minimise the risk whilst bolt clipping.
In reply to Mikey P:
I know virtually nothing about auto-locking devices, but from what I hear I'd be inclined to agree with jimtitt. You're not going to find anything much safer than a GriGri.
A very experienced and reliable belayer almost decked me from the top my local wall once. He was a little distracted, thought I was dynoing when I was falling, realised just in time and stopped it. I don't recall what device he was using, but wouldn't have suggested changing it. It was just an incident that woke us up a bit. In some ways it's good to get a little scare like that occasionally - I bet your belayer will be more attentive from now on. That's going to keep you safer than any piece of hardware.
I know virtually nothing about auto-locking devices, but from what I hear I'd be inclined to agree with jimtitt. You're not going to find anything much safer than a GriGri.
A very experienced and reliable belayer almost decked me from the top my local wall once. He was a little distracted, thought I was dynoing when I was falling, realised just in time and stopped it. I don't recall what device he was using, but wouldn't have suggested changing it. It was just an incident that woke us up a bit. In some ways it's good to get a little scare like that occasionally - I bet your belayer will be more attentive from now on. That's going to keep you safer than any piece of hardware.
In reply to Mikey P:
Hi,
Firstly I'm going to rant like the others; if your partner doesn't pay attention with a normal device, it could be likely he/she will pay less attention with an assisted device after his/her confidence returns after the close call, since the device 'does the job for you'.
Now for the bit you wanted; I have tried a stack of assisted devices. I recommend you get the Mammut Smart or CT Click Up if any, since you use both of them like a regular device when belaying a leader (lowering is a little different). I use the Trango Cinch for sport climbing, by far the smoothes paying device I've ever used but hard to learn to use since it's far different to others, I wouldn't trust someone with it if they couldnt tell the difference between a fall/break and a 11m dyno. I don't like grigri 1 or 2, I hear the elelrid eddy is good but expensive.
Stu
Hi,
Firstly I'm going to rant like the others; if your partner doesn't pay attention with a normal device, it could be likely he/she will pay less attention with an assisted device after his/her confidence returns after the close call, since the device 'does the job for you'.
Now for the bit you wanted; I have tried a stack of assisted devices. I recommend you get the Mammut Smart or CT Click Up if any, since you use both of them like a regular device when belaying a leader (lowering is a little different). I use the Trango Cinch for sport climbing, by far the smoothes paying device I've ever used but hard to learn to use since it's far different to others, I wouldn't trust someone with it if they couldnt tell the difference between a fall/break and a 11m dyno. I don't like grigri 1 or 2, I hear the elelrid eddy is good but expensive.
Stu
In reply to Hooo:
I totally agree. If the OP trusts this belayer anyway then no need to change anything. I was party to an 8 metre trad winger when a friend fell and the top piece popped and the belayer was caught out by the speed of the rope feed and lost the brake line. He caught it by grabbing the live side 2 or 3 metres off the ground. I can assure you that the belayer remembers that moment very very well and will never get caught like that again. Chalk it up to experience, force them to buy you a pint and get out as soon as the weather clears... oh? wait! it's clear!!!! get out there
I totally agree. If the OP trusts this belayer anyway then no need to change anything. I was party to an 8 metre trad winger when a friend fell and the top piece popped and the belayer was caught out by the speed of the rope feed and lost the brake line. He caught it by grabbing the live side 2 or 3 metres off the ground. I can assure you that the belayer remembers that moment very very well and will never get caught like that again. Chalk it up to experience, force them to buy you a pint and get out as soon as the weather clears... oh? wait! it's clear!!!! get out there
In reply to jimtitt:
Grigris are very awkward for lowering, so if you have a rubbish belayer they will probably drop you then instead.
Neil
Grigris are very awkward for lowering, so if you have a rubbish belayer they will probably drop you then instead.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
I find the Grigri excellent for lowering, so much so that not only did I lower somebody with mine yesterday I abseiled several times as well!
I find the Grigri excellent for lowering, so much so that not only did I lower somebody with mine yesterday I abseiled several times as well!
In reply to Mikey P: I second the Smart. A mate of mine has a Clickup that he swears by but then he's never been lowered with one. It could be that he doesn't use it correctly but whenever he lowers me I come down in jerks and bumps, sometimes in a quite dramatic fashion. The Smart is light and relatively cheap compared to all the others and weighs much less. It is also very similar to using a standard plate.
Al
Al
In reply to jimtitt:
Assume you have had a lot of practice?
I have one, and I tried a load of times, but just got sick of it, it's horrible to use compared with a conventional device. I'm also not a massive fan of sliding the rope through one hand to lower rather than always having a hand gripping it at any time, which of course you have to do with a Grigri because the other hand is on the lever.
I do recognise the benefits of assisted braking, but the rest of the device is just nasty to use, though admittedly I haven't tried a Grigri 2 which may well be better.
Neil
Assume you have had a lot of practice?
I have one, and I tried a load of times, but just got sick of it, it's horrible to use compared with a conventional device. I'm also not a massive fan of sliding the rope through one hand to lower rather than always having a hand gripping it at any time, which of course you have to do with a Grigri because the other hand is on the lever.
I do recognise the benefits of assisted braking, but the rest of the device is just nasty to use, though admittedly I haven't tried a Grigri 2 which may well be better.
Neil
In reply to Hooo:
If used correctly the grigri is a safe belay device. Unfortunately it is easy to use incorrectly. I don't like them and would never use one.
I use the cinch. I really like it. There is a bit of a knack to it but it doesn't take much to master it. A mate was belaying me with one recently when I fell off as he was paying out slack and it arrested the fall very quickly.
If used correctly the grigri is a safe belay device. Unfortunately it is easy to use incorrectly. I don't like them and would never use one.
I use the cinch. I really like it. There is a bit of a knack to it but it doesn't take much to master it. A mate was belaying me with one recently when I fell off as he was paying out slack and it arrested the fall very quickly.
In reply to Mikey P: Hi
With a Gri-Gri you don't hold down a lever to feed the rope, and lowering is easy. It doesn't matter how good the device is if it's not used correctly.
With a Gri-Gri you don't hold down a lever to feed the rope, and lowering is easy. It doesn't matter how good the device is if it's not used correctly.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Well clearly the first time I didn´t have a lot of practice! With a lot of practice you can lower and abseil without holding the rope though this is contrary to the instructions that come with your GriGri.
Comparing lowering with a GriGri to a conventional device is pointless as a)that´s not what the OP wanted b) they do different jobs.
I´d say your experience is not that of most people and the general impression is the GriGri is the best device of its kind available, at the cliff I was at yesterday there were three people bolting routes all of whom use a GriGri to ascend and descend the rope and subsequently belay when climbing. The other two people are technical trainers for the German Mountain Rescue.
The original GriGri is the preferred model.
Well clearly the first time I didn´t have a lot of practice! With a lot of practice you can lower and abseil without holding the rope though this is contrary to the instructions that come with your GriGri.
Comparing lowering with a GriGri to a conventional device is pointless as a)that´s not what the OP wanted b) they do different jobs.
I´d say your experience is not that of most people and the general impression is the GriGri is the best device of its kind available, at the cliff I was at yesterday there were three people bolting routes all of whom use a GriGri to ascend and descend the rope and subsequently belay when climbing. The other two people are technical trainers for the German Mountain Rescue.
The original GriGri is the preferred model.
In reply to jimtitt: Along with most of my mates I had one of the early GriGris. We got along fine with them for a few years until someone at a wall pointed out that we were using them in an unsafe way. Everyone else was using them the same way at that time I hasten to add as it was the best way of paying out rope quickly. At least it was to us at that time.
I wish I could find some of the original marketing information because I feel sure that they were advertised as "hand free", that's why we bought them, but I think Petzl got nervous about this claim. I could be wrong but I never really got on with the recommended way of paying out rope so sold mine and replaced it with a Mammut Smart which I prefer.
Al
I wish I could find some of the original marketing information because I feel sure that they were advertised as "hand free", that's why we bought them, but I think Petzl got nervous about this claim. I could be wrong but I never really got on with the recommended way of paying out rope so sold mine and replaced it with a Mammut Smart which I prefer.
Al
In reply to jimtitt:
"Comparing lowering with a GriGri to a conventional device is pointless as a)that´s not what the OP wanted b) they do different jobs."
Why? The OP is talking about switching to such a device. My suggestion is not to (or at least not the GriGri, I haven't used any other such devices so can't comment on those).
"I´d say your experience is not that of most people and the general impression is the GriGri is the best device of its kind available, at the cliff I was at yesterday there were three people bolting routes all of whom use a GriGri to ascend and descend the rope and subsequently belay when climbing. The other two people are technical trainers for the German Mountain Rescue."
So experienced people who have lots of practice with GriGris can use them smoothly? Yes, I would expect so - but if you got on with one first time you're probably more precise in your movements than me.
I can use one, but I find it very difficult to lower smoothly, and as I said when lowering I prefer two hands on the dead rope than sliding through one as you pretty much have to with a GriGri.
Neil
"Comparing lowering with a GriGri to a conventional device is pointless as a)that´s not what the OP wanted b) they do different jobs."
Why? The OP is talking about switching to such a device. My suggestion is not to (or at least not the GriGri, I haven't used any other such devices so can't comment on those).
"I´d say your experience is not that of most people and the general impression is the GriGri is the best device of its kind available, at the cliff I was at yesterday there were three people bolting routes all of whom use a GriGri to ascend and descend the rope and subsequently belay when climbing. The other two people are technical trainers for the German Mountain Rescue."
So experienced people who have lots of practice with GriGris can use them smoothly? Yes, I would expect so - but if you got on with one first time you're probably more precise in your movements than me.
I can use one, but I find it very difficult to lower smoothly, and as I said when lowering I prefer two hands on the dead rope than sliding through one as you pretty much have to with a GriGri.
Neil
In reply to Mikey P: I have used most devices out there. My favorite by a long way is the mammut smart. So much so that I sold the gri gri and fadars sum since I bought it. It gives a very soft catch, is smooth to pay out and you can not have it 'open or closed' like the gri gri. In my mind a gri gri is a ticking time bomb and I have seen accidents happen with them. Usually when the leader is out of sight and falls and the belayer feels the tug and gives slack and before you know it the leader has fallen 25 metres. It is cheap and light as well.
In reply to The Grist: So have I and find the Mammut Smart to be the best on several levels. I think that if it had come out first the GriGri wouldn't have stood a chance. You see so few around and I find that really surprising. The power of marketing I suppose plus a well established user base.
Al
Al
Another vote for the smart. Its just such a simple design and works well, set up is the same as typical device and what i do like is it's a proper assisted device so you don't get lazy while belaying whereas i've seen loads of gri-gri hands free belaying. Lowering can be a little jerky but much less than on a gri-gri or click-up, paying out takes a few practice goes but gets smooth and quick in no time. For £25 it's a great piece of kit.
I tried a click-up on about 10 routes, half climbing, half belaying. It was just too sensitive for me and clicked up when paying out so interrupted the climbing. Maybe something to retrain yourself for and would get better in time. I did like the simplicity though.
I tried a click-up on about 10 routes, half climbing, half belaying. It was just too sensitive for me and clicked up when paying out so interrupted the climbing. Maybe something to retrain yourself for and would get better in time. I did like the simplicity though.
In reply to Mikey P:
It's not 'auto-locking', but I used the Wild Country SRC for years and was very happy with it. Have recently got the GriGri 2 and like it a lot. I still prefer the SRC for paying out, but GG2 for holding while leader rests/hangs.
It's not 'auto-locking', but I used the Wild Country SRC for years and was very happy with it. Have recently got the GriGri 2 and like it a lot. I still prefer the SRC for paying out, but GG2 for holding while leader rests/hangs.
In reply to Fraser:
Another vote for the Wild Country SRC, as it gives a great catch and is very smooth for lowering. It also has the advantage that it is NOT fully auto-locking so the belayer still has to pay attention and doesn't get lulled into a false sense of security; it does massively assist the belayer in catching a fall though, which is pretty handy. Never got on with grigri, and I don't like the jerky catch they give. SRC gives a much softer catch. I haven't tried any of the other devices mentioned above though, so it may well be that they are better, all I know is that I have been very satisfied with the SRC over the last two years.
Another vote for the Wild Country SRC, as it gives a great catch and is very smooth for lowering. It also has the advantage that it is NOT fully auto-locking so the belayer still has to pay attention and doesn't get lulled into a false sense of security; it does massively assist the belayer in catching a fall though, which is pretty handy. Never got on with grigri, and I don't like the jerky catch they give. SRC gives a much softer catch. I haven't tried any of the other devices mentioned above though, so it may well be that they are better, all I know is that I have been very satisfied with the SRC over the last two years.
In reply to ape1980: The Smart works the same way as the SRC but is easier to handle because the part where the "dead" rope lies is longer allowing you to hold it in a much more natural position.
Al
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
There were devices made on the Smart priciple around before the GriGri, notably the Salewa Antz and the Hewbolt and later things like the SRC and YoYo and a few others, none of which were particularly commercially succesful. They were and are no substitute for a GriGri for many situations, for versatility and ruggedness the GriGri is still first choice for most climbers experienced with these kinds of devices.
Since the GriGri patent expired at least 3 other companies have though it worthwhile to produce alternatives and it is still without doubt the most popular locking-assist belay device on the market and clearly in the minds of its users the best.
> (In reply to The Grist) So have I and find the Mammut Smart to be the best on several levels. I think that if it had come out first the GriGri wouldn't have stood a chance. You see so few around and I find that really surprising. The power of marketing I suppose plus a well established user base.
>
> Al
>
> Al
There were devices made on the Smart priciple around before the GriGri, notably the Salewa Antz and the Hewbolt and later things like the SRC and YoYo and a few others, none of which were particularly commercially succesful. They were and are no substitute for a GriGri for many situations, for versatility and ruggedness the GriGri is still first choice for most climbers experienced with these kinds of devices.
Since the GriGri patent expired at least 3 other companies have though it worthwhile to produce alternatives and it is still without doubt the most popular locking-assist belay device on the market and clearly in the minds of its users the best.
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: I have a smart alpine which i think is great, im surprised more people dont use them, it goes everything a reverso/ atc guide will do with a bit of added safety for when im faffing trying to eat/ drink and belay at the same time.
In reply to ape1980: Another vote for the SRC, seems to do everything I could possibly want, you'd have to be peverse rather than incompetent to drop anyone very far.
I never did get the Grigri, and no one's ever succesfully explained just why they are so great over something simpler to manufacture, simpler to check and simpler to use.
I never did get the Grigri, and no one's ever succesfully explained just why they are so great over something simpler to manufacture, simpler to check and simpler to use.
In reply to jimtitt: It is the most popular by a wide margin but I think that's mainly due to marketing in the first instance and it's subsequent widespread use in the second and not necessarily because it's the best. Do you have any knowledge about it's early days? As I said earlier my recollection is of it being sold as a "hands free", "failsafe" device which would go someway towards explaining why it became popular and grabbed the biggest share of the market. Perhaps I'm just being over cynical or, more likely, suffering from old farts memory loss.
Al
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
It was originally sold as auto-locking which in reality (barring something wierd) it is. However the regrettable habit of climbers to override the auto-locking made it nescessary to change the instructions and tell climbers to keep hold of the dead rope which meant the device would lock no matter what was done. The ghastly term `locking assist´ was born which if you ever do a drop test is clearly a misnomer since the belayer in fact does nothing whatsoever.
This has also occured with the Trango Cinch where originally one was instructed to effectively throw the device away from you, in other words use it as auto-locking, however climbers insisted on still pinching the body preventing it from re-orientating and locking. The newest instructions now tell you to install it differently so that is effectively in the locked position all the time. Not of course that Trango has seen fit to contact all the purchasers to tell them nor widely publicise the fact but since that would be a tacit admission that the old way was incorrect with all its potential its liability issues.
The GriGri was originally devised as a lead rope solo device (and is still sold for this by Rock Exotica) and is certainly the most popular device in use for this, it was subsequently modified by Petzl specifically as a auto-locking device. There are some who prefer the Eddy which is harder to manually disable the auto-locking (so probably better for the OP´s belayer) but the lowering is the pits in comparison and rope diameter/feed more sensitive as well as expensive and heavy.
The draft UIAA standard for locking-assisted belay devices includes a hands-free (auto-locking)drop test onto the device which currently it is thought only the GriGri and its clones will pass. Including this test may well prove controversial.
The Smart is, of it´s type (assisted braking) probably the best available at the moment in my opinion (sorry Click-Up fans) but certainly isn´t a GriGri replacement for me and many users since it does none of the things I want or need well enough. If it suits your needs then probably a good choice but for the OP´s belayer potentially even more of a disaster.
It was originally sold as auto-locking which in reality (barring something wierd) it is. However the regrettable habit of climbers to override the auto-locking made it nescessary to change the instructions and tell climbers to keep hold of the dead rope which meant the device would lock no matter what was done. The ghastly term `locking assist´ was born which if you ever do a drop test is clearly a misnomer since the belayer in fact does nothing whatsoever.
This has also occured with the Trango Cinch where originally one was instructed to effectively throw the device away from you, in other words use it as auto-locking, however climbers insisted on still pinching the body preventing it from re-orientating and locking. The newest instructions now tell you to install it differently so that is effectively in the locked position all the time. Not of course that Trango has seen fit to contact all the purchasers to tell them nor widely publicise the fact but since that would be a tacit admission that the old way was incorrect with all its potential its liability issues.
The GriGri was originally devised as a lead rope solo device (and is still sold for this by Rock Exotica) and is certainly the most popular device in use for this, it was subsequently modified by Petzl specifically as a auto-locking device. There are some who prefer the Eddy which is harder to manually disable the auto-locking (so probably better for the OP´s belayer) but the lowering is the pits in comparison and rope diameter/feed more sensitive as well as expensive and heavy.
The draft UIAA standard for locking-assisted belay devices includes a hands-free (auto-locking)drop test onto the device which currently it is thought only the GriGri and its clones will pass. Including this test may well prove controversial.
The Smart is, of it´s type (assisted braking) probably the best available at the moment in my opinion (sorry Click-Up fans) but certainly isn´t a GriGri replacement for me and many users since it does none of the things I want or need well enough. If it suits your needs then probably a good choice but for the OP´s belayer potentially even more of a disaster.
In reply to jimtitt:
I like my Eddy
The rope does need to be the right diameter, true.
And a porter helps to carry it.
It is now my standard rope-solo device.
I like my Eddy
The rope does need to be the right diameter, true.
And a porter helps to carry it.
It is now my standard rope-solo device.
In reply to Mikey P: I dont usually like using gri gris or any other auto locking device but i was quite impressed when I used the eddy
In reply to David Coley: My surname is Porter so that's good
In reply to jimtitt: cheaper than an SP.
In reply to Mikey P:
This video is pretty helpful: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=499
Although I'd mirror the other comments about making sure that your satisfied with your belayer,as an assisted braking device isn't a substitute for good technique.
This video is pretty helpful: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=499
Although I'd mirror the other comments about making sure that your satisfied with your belayer,as an assisted braking device isn't a substitute for good technique.
In reply to Mikey P:
A Petzl GriGri is NOT a Auto locking device. It is a Camming Device. You Should always treat in like a Tube device (ATC, etc)
A Petzl GriGri is NOT a Auto locking device. It is a Camming Device. You Should always treat in like a Tube device (ATC, etc)
In reply to Mikey P:
My missus uses a Mammut Smart for indoor climbing and it's a good bit of kit. The only downfall is that it's a tricky little sod to pay out rope to a leader with, but is OK after a bit of practice.
My missus uses a Mammut Smart for indoor climbing and it's a good bit of kit. The only downfall is that it's a tricky little sod to pay out rope to a leader with, but is OK after a bit of practice.
In reply to jimtitt:
Hey Jim, I've been trying out both the Smart Alpine and the Alpine Up (which is the double rope version of the Click Up), and so far I'm heading for the opposite conclusion. Granted the Up is heavier and more expensive, but beyond that, can you elaborate a bit on what makes the Smart superior?
> The Smart is, of it´s type (assisted braking) probably the best available at the moment in my opinion (sorry Click-Up fans).
Hey Jim, I've been trying out both the Smart Alpine and the Alpine Up (which is the double rope version of the Click Up), and so far I'm heading for the opposite conclusion. Granted the Up is heavier and more expensive, but beyond that, can you elaborate a bit on what makes the Smart superior?
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