UKC

Am looking at a petsafe static model (gets amazing reviews) for my 4 month old GSP who is barking like a madman when put to bed (all day he is the model dog, fun, playful, calm, but once put in his cage at night he turns into dogzilla) The website says not suitable until 6 months old.

He started of fine when we got him, but is gradually getting worse (last night 1.5hrs continuous from putting to bed, then another bought at 3.30am for 10mins) He is in a big cage with a comfy bed, cage covered in blanket around back and sides so cannot see into back garden, radio on quietly to disguise any sudden noises in the night. He is fed, watered and walked an hour before bed as well.

Have tried the spray collar which he barked through until it ran out of gas, then puked up, then continued barking. Tried a muzzle, but then he just whined and started throwing himself about the cage.

Have read amazing reports about the static collar, but am struggling to cope with the idea of having to wait 2 months until I can use it.

He clearly suffers from seperation anxiety. Any tips from dog owners?

Do you let him spend time in the crate during the day? If not then you should. If you are going about your daily activities in the house then put him crate for progressivly longer periods of time. The crate needs to be associated with good things and not seperation. So every time he gets a treat, he gets it while in the crate, even commanding "bed" before getting them. Feed him his meals in the crate as well.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Why would you keep a dog in a cage overnight? I think I'd bark too.

In reply to Fraser: Because the general consensus is that dogs prefer to be in a secure box rather than free to rome when left alone at night. Pretty much all the books and magazines recommend them. Also stops him scratching at doors and chewing cushions/sofa legs/cupbourd doors etc.

In reply to Game of Conkers: Have you considered working out why he's stressed at night, rather than making it worse by adding electric shocks to the mix? You admit that he's anxious. He's obviously not barking "for fun", if he was, maybe the spray collar would have been enough to put him off. What will you do if the shock doesn't work? Maybe move up to beating him to shut him up?

I would really suggest looking for positive training advice somewhere like here: http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?s=0714cba642e31dc9217ce02b490b0...

In reply to Milesy: That's a good idea, thx. We will try that starting today

In reply to ceri: The vet recommended petsafe anti bark collars. So did the puppy training instructor at the classes we attend.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Maybe a dog forum is more appropriate to answer your question.

If the behaviour is seperation based, then a punitive method such as anti-bark collars will only add to the anxiety and escalate the problem. The previous comment was correct in regard to giving the cage positive associations but it does not address the problem of seperation anxiety.

My advice would be to contact the APDT UK @ www.apdt.co.uk. There is a list of trainers on the website who would be able to do a one -2- one visit. The advantage to this is that it will not be people on a forum speculating at the cause of the problem and a who person would be able to give you sound advice on how to train your dog using positive methods.

If you let me know the area where you live, I could find you a trainer if you like.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

But It's also important to train the dog to love his crate. Does he go in out of choice during the day? Does he get treats e.g. stuffed Kong when in there? If night is the only time he is alone and then he is shut in his crate away from you, it will not magically become his "happy place".

Here is a link for separation anxiety, I'm sure you could get similar advice for night time puppy training
http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=234271&hl=crate+t...

In reply to Indiana: Thx, I will check the website out myself.

Positive training methods are fine and am happy to do them. But when the neighbours are complaining then a quick remedy is required before the £5k fine and court appearence

In reply to ceri: I like this daytime crate suggestion and we will adopt it. Yes, he only uses it at night currently and needs treats to get him to go in so its not a "happy" place for sure.

In reply to Game of Conkers: In that case, I would suggest that the vet and trainer are outdated in their methods I'm afraid.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars

In reply to Fraser:

You clearly haven't kept up with how to raise a dog in a safe and secure environment. Crate training is recommended by most vets and professional trainers nowadays. Anyone who doesn't use one is a dingbat in my humble opinion.

In answer to the OP; as has been suggested by another poster you should make sure the crate is used throughout the day and becomes a safe bolthole/bed. The only difference at night is that you shut the door. Ours is open all the time throughout the day and if nothing is happening or nobody is playing with him, our pup (5 mths now) just wanders in and goes to sleep. We put him in there at night from day one and besides a couple of hard nights where we used a 'cold turkey' approach and ignored some pitiful whining, he has been absolutely fine. I would add that if you respond to his barking or whining at night, he will keep it doing it.

In reply to ceri:

Beat me to it. I agree.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Once it is you will not have problems. Now when she is tired or scunnered she scutters off and cuddles into her blankets in the crate. At breakfast time and dinner times she is sitting patiently in the crate waiting. The seperation anxity will ease once it is his safe and comfy zone. I hear lavander can be pretty calming for anxious dogs as well.

In reply to ceri: You could be right, the spray collar certainly upped the anxiety

In reply to Game of Conkers: My collie hated her crate. We persisted with trying to get her used to it etc. She whined and whined and whined

In the end she was much happier in her bed in a room with the door closed and caused us no problems during the night.

All dogs are different and just because all the experts recommend crate training doesn't mean it will work 100% of the time.

Personally I think the collars are the wrong way to go. They may stop him barking but will they cure his anxiety about being shut in his crate?

In reply to Indiana: Our puppy class trainer is on that website. Class tonight, I will bring up the shock collar article.

In reply to jezb1: That has occured to me but was trying to remain consistent for now to try and work out and eliminate the problem

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Our GSP is the same age as yours. We had a month and a half of terrible nights where every time he got up for a pee etc he would howl and cry for attention.

The worst thing we did was get up and attend to him as this reinforced 'if I bark I'll get attention'. It was very stressful. We live in a flat and we were sure our neighbours would be breaking our door down any second over the noise.

We tried an Adaptil anti stress collar but I'm not sure it made a lot of difference (and he grew out of it in 2 weeks!).

Last week we started feeding him in his crate and this has made a really big difference. He is definitely liking the crate more than before and even takes himself off to it for a sleep sometimes. He keeps all his toys in it too. If he gets sleepy on the couch during the day I'll put him in the crate to reinforce the idea that the crate is his bed. Before we started feeding him in it he would pee the crate out of stress of being left alone (even if we were still in the house).

One bit of useful advice we got was to take his water away early. Initially it seemed a bit cruel to me, but the puppy class trainer said 'take it away by 6pm'. We now let him have water till say 7.30pm then lift the bowl. His dinner is at 7. He'll sleep from 11- 6am now which is fantastic compared to the 4 times a night he'd have us up before.

When we first got ours he was very boisterous and alomost aggressive in his play (biting too hard, barking at us for food when we were eating). It was quite worrying. We have been working hard on his manners and have now got him to the point where we he knows he has to sit, and wait quietly until his food is ready. When we put the food in the crate and make him 'wait' for up to 30 seconds before we say 'good boy' and let him eat. He also now sits before crossing the road, before going through doors (we always go through first as well).

Sorry for the long post but we are really starting to get somewhere with our pup now. It's been hard work. Hope it improves for you.

In reply to Game of Conkers: search crate training, you should go back to the beginning, i've crate trained many dogs, thay learn the crate is a nice place if you do it right. what ever you do don't go to the dog during the night unless really neccessary

In reply to Game of Conkers:

And how was this consensus reached, by market research of dogs asking them how hey felt about cages?

Maybe the dog is trying to communicate that it is sh1t scared of the cage in the only way that it can communicate?

If you want the cage option then why not leave the dog in the room with the cage but leave the cage door, if there is one open. That way the dog can choose to either sleep on the ground or on a cushion inside a cage.

In reply to Wee Davie: Thx for your post. Basically it is clear to me we have cocked up his crate training. In every other respect he is a top dog. I will ditch the collar idea and go back to basics with the crate.

I called the wife earlier and told her to bring the cage out of the utility room and into the living area, but his bed in it and try feeding him in it. Will do some more research and talk to the trainer tonight about it.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

I've not used an anti bark collar. At one point with Brodie I was considering the idea as a last resort. Either that or send him to the slipper factory- the ultimate threat.

My parents used an anti bark device with their Collie but it didn't really work. I reckon you're much better trying to tackle the stress that makes them bark or behave anxiously.

In reply to The Lemming: "And how was this consensus reached, by market research of dogs asking them how hey felt about cages?"

Probably by you and one of your endless consensus threads on this website

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Like

Hi GOC, I'm a dog owner who has just faced a tough battle with separation anxiety so I get where you're coming from.
It is tough, especially when neighbours are concerned - we only found out via a neighbour making a comment and then obviously we were completely paranoid that they're report us to environmental health. However, several people pointed out that even if they did, it's not an instant process. Just think at how long the council can take to take action of something you report, I bet it would be a while before someone even visited to record the sound levels, and from watching a documentary following the noise abation officers, they often are more than happy to have a polite word first and allow you time to deal with the issue, especially when it's regarding pets (because it's not like the dog can understand you explaining their nuisance noise!). The fact that you have taken action already to deal with it will likely work in your favour too.

Secondly, I do actually agree that shock collars can work. I mean, what dog would want to get an electric shock? Because that's what they do - some people put nicer names on them, like "anti bark" collars, or "static" collars to make them sound as if it's a minor little twinge, but if you are going to use one of these collars then I would suggest you realise what you're actually inflicting on the dog. There are lots of videos on Youtube of people testing these things out, and they don't look pleasant! Just bear in mind that animals have a natural instinct to hide pain, it's a survival tactic, so just because a dog doesn't seem overly bothered by a shock collar, it doesn't mean it's not hurting them.
Anyway, while they do work, it's a quick fix. It deals with the symptom, not with the cause. You run the risk of making the problem worse - separation anxiety is like a phobia, a phobia of being alone. A shock collar just reinforces the fact that bad things do happen when the dog is alone, and although they may surpress the barking, you also may have problems with the dog expressing its anxiety in another way. While chewing its own tail won't annoy your neighbours, it will cost you a fortune in vet fees and cause your dog a fair bit of pain! Destructive behaviour, self-harm, OCD behaviours like pacing, urinating or defecating in the house (especially messy if confined to a crate where the dog may then step or lay in it) and so on - the dog will need a physical outlet for its anxiety in some form or another.

Deal with the cause and you will get a long term result. It's not easy, but unfortunately that's the problem with a living being rather than a Tamagotchi you could just turn off.
The immediate fix, to satisfy your neighbours, would be to let the dog sleep somewhere it is happier. Could you move the crate into your bedroom? A hallway? Alternatively, babygates across the bedroom door to either confine it into your room or on the hallway may work if space is an issue. Remember, this is not a permanent change, you may just have to tolerate it for a short period of time. Once the dog has settled, you can work on moving it out of the bedroom - so move the crate or bed closer and closer to the bedroom door, then into the hallway, closer to the stairs, and then the bottom of the stairs, until you eventually reach the kitchen. This could take days, weeks, or months - you need to be flexible and work with your dog's pace. But a relaxed dog is going to learn to cope with being left alone much better than a dog that is stressing out every night so it's a vital change to make (and solves your worry about EH giving you a fine)

Making the crate a good place is essential like others have said. There are some good guides on crate training online, if you haven't got any Kongs then I would invest in a couple to use for this purpose. If you don't know what they are, they're rubber toys with a hollow middle, you stuff them with food and then it takes the dog a while to get the food out. Start with an easy challenge and then make them tougher and tougher - my two dogs now have them frozen solid, and it takes them about 30 minutes to empty them, but don't start too difficult or the dog will get bored. One extra benefit is that licking/chewing releases feel-good endorphins to help relax a dog too. When my dog's separation anxiety was at its worse, she also struggled with being left alone to sleep, so I got into the habit of rewarding her every time she was left alone in a room (even if it was nipping up to the loo for 30 seconds) by putting down a pre-prepared Kong smeared with cream cheese (it's handy to have a few spares to have ready-made, I have 6 between the 2 dogs so I can almost always keep one pair in the freezer) and I'd leave her a half-filled Kong when we went to bed. That part of her behaviour only took a week or so to address with the constant rewarding of 'alone time', if that helps reassure you!

Other options to look at are some much nicer calmative measures. Have you tried a DAP/Adaptil plugin, spray or collar yet? It's a diffuser that plugs in (like an airfreshener) and releases artificial hormones that mimic those of a mother dog, used to calm her puppies. There's a pump spray version (spray on the dog's bed, for example) and a collar (that the dog wears continiously, effective for about 6 weeks I think) version too.
A more recent product is a similar diffuser but made with essential oils like Valerian.
You can get supplements with calmative effects too. Zylkene and Calmex are two - the Zylkene you give daily so it builds up in the body, the Calmex is more of a one-off product you give an hour before needed, so you could give a small evening meal an hour or so before bedtime. There's a product called Stressless, a magnesium supplement - a magnesium deficiency can cause anxiety, and anxious dogs burn off magnesium faster too, so supplementing can often help.
Herbal products like valerian can be give in supplement form too. There's also homepathic products like Rescue Remedy - a few drops in the waterbowl or a drop or two on the dog's tongue.
There's also calming 'clothing', such as the Thundershirt. These work on the same principle as swaddling a baby, and adults with austitic tendencies often find tight hugs or tight fitting clothing helps relax them too. The Thundershirt has a tight (but elasticated) fit designed to work on various pressure points to relax a dog.
There are a couple of companies out there than have even compiled songs that studies have shown to be more effective at relaxing dogs! There's one CD of classical music, I believe, and someone has created a canine lullaby CD.

All of these products have various effects on various dogs. There's no one-size-fits-all, but used correctly, the products should not have harmful effects like a shock collar. Sometimes you can find a few of these products can make some dogs more anxious - I found DAP did this to my dog, but the others either had some beneficial effects or no effect at all. It turned out, in my case, that my dog had a medical condition (borderline hypothyroid - diagnosed with thorough blood testing/a full thyroid panel) and her separation anxiety has nearly completely gone now she is on medication, so that's also something to bear in mind, though it would be a bit surprising in a young dog.

In reply to krlyr: Wow, I knew this site would be good for dog advice ! Thx for your post. I will not be using a shock collar after reading the advice here. I will try the crate training and I like the sound of the soothing artificial hormone diffuser.

I will also speak to the neighbours and let them know there is a course of remedial training in progress and patience will be rewarded

It cut off my last bit, so continuing my post..


Some good reads on separation anxiety are Patricia McConnell's "I'll be home soon" and Nicole Wilde's "Please don't leave me!", both available on Kindle if you want a cheaper version available immediately.
Separation anxiety is something that the finger gets pointed at quite quickly but true separation anxiety is quite severe. While your dog may or may not be suffering from it in its true sense, the methods for dealing with it will most likely help any dog suffering a milder anxiety about being left alone so the books are worth a read anyway IMO.

If nothing else, the shock collar advises you don't use it yet anyway. If you really cannot be convinced not to use one, at least give the kinder methods outlined above/in the recommended books a try first, you may be surprised. And a good behaviourist can be a great resource, and many insurance companies will cover the cost if puppy is insured. http://www.apbc.org.uk is a good place to find a local behaviourist who will use up-to-date, kind methods.

Another couple of things to take into consideration with behavioural issues - diet can play a huge part on behaviour so I would look at what food you're feeding him and see whether that could be contributing to any issues. For example, highly coloured foods like Bakers can often cause problem behaviour.
Also I would consider his exercise regime. A well-exercised dog may be physically tired but mental stimulation is important too. A 4 month old dog shouldn't be pushed to exhaustion physically while it's still growing, but mental stimulation in the form of obedience and trick training, and 'brain games' can help wear them out - so scattering his dinner across the lawn is a simple way to make dinner time require a bit of brain power, 5 or 10 minutes of trick training in the evening will get his brain cogs turning, etc. When you do take him for walks, consider whether his walks are relaxing or stressful - some activities can raise stress levels, like throwing a ball, but some are more calming, such as letting the dog potter around sniffing. I found that changing what we did on walks helped to relax my dog in the house too.
The general rule of thumb for puppies is 5 minutes of exercise per month - so an hour could be pushing him a bit too far. It's not a completely strict rule, there's some leeway e.g. if you took a slow potter to a park and the hour consisted of sitting down having a rest, some gentle wandering around, and so on, but if you're pavement pounding at a brisk speed for an hour then it's going to put a lot of stress on his developing joints.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Whoops, sorry, deleted my last reply to amend it a bit. Glad you've had second thoughts on the shock collar I have to say, I did go on a group dog walk once with a trainer in attendance who used shock collars on his own dog and was trying to 'sell' the idea onto pretty much everyone there! His dogs were absolutely fantasticaly well-behaved - dropping into a sit-stay 100 yards from him, never venturing away from his side as we walked on and so on, but I actually found this behaviour quite disturbing. I think it actually served to show how ineffective his methods were by the fact he still had the remotes around his neck and shock collars on all his dogs - if they truly worked then surely he could train the dogs and then ditch the collars? Truth is, they work short-term while the fear of the shock overrides the desire to misbehave or the anxiety causing the behaviour, but once the dog learns the difference between when they have the collar on or off, or the fear of the shock becomes less than the need to express the behaviour (a bit like your dog barking through the spray collar - his anxiety of being left alone was greater than the discomfort of the spray), the effectiveness of the collar will lapse.
I also noticed how he never seemed to mention how the collar worked (those that use them do seem to gloss over the fact that they issue electric shocks), just how well it did and how necessary it was to have a dog that obeyed every word. He had a very good sales speil, I have to say, and unfortunately a few people ended up convinced to give them a try, but I think they are horrible products that get quick results in an inhumane way and don't address the issues longterm.

In reply to krlyr: His walks are a gentle stroll off the lead for 20 mins, with some recall training using a dog whistle and treats. He is making excellent progress and loves his walks. He only eats pro plan large puppy mix (plus treats when training).

I will try the frozen kong advice as well as a bowt of obedience training before bed.Thx

In reply to Game of Conkers:

>Thx for your post. Basically it is clear to me we have cocked up his crate training. In every other respect he is a top dog. I will ditch the collar idea and go back to basics with the crate.
I called the wife earlier and told her to bring the cage out of the utility room and into the living area, but his bed in it and try feeding him in it. Will do some more research and talk to the trainer tonight about it.

No problem! I know how difficult is has been for us too. I was beating myself up about messing up with Brodie too. The old Ted Hughes quote, 'They f*** you up, your mum and dad' was ringing true in my head...
Our GSP is so bright and loving. Probably just like yours. I bet in one week you'll have him turned round.

Good luck. It is worth it in the end. Couldn't imagine not having my dog about now.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

I meant Larkin btw! Doh.

Interestingly I have had a couple of people have behavioural issues with dogs fed on Pro Plan. It seems to be a good food but just doesn't agree with some dogs. Someone on a dog forum I'm on had to switch their Rottie puppy off of Pro Plan as her behaviour went chaotic - soon stopped once the owner switched foods. They mentioned it on the forum and someone else (working in a vet surgeon and quite involved with agility etc. - so seeing a lot of dogs) mentioned that it didn't seem to suit a lot of the dogs she'd met that were fed on it. Just something that may be worth bearing in mind.

In reply to Game of Conkers: Train your dog don't electrocute it.

youtube.com/watch?v=Gn0h3aRa1NI&

In reply to Game of Conkers: Good luck with crate training! I'm sure your pup will be much happier at night once he learn the crate is home of goodies rather than alone-ness and scary things.

In reply to Jiduvah:

I agree, and that was very funny!

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Just re-reading parts of the thread, when you say your puppy trainer was on "that" website, did you mean the APDT website? I would be surprised if they recommended a shock collar if that's the case as members must follow the APDT code of practice
http://www.apdt.co.uk/about_APDT.asp#practice
"The training methods employed and advised by members shall be consistent with the principles of kindness and fairness to both clients and dogs. For this reason, the use of coercive or punitive techniques and equipment should not be used. (Appendix 1)."

Appendix 1 goes on to state that "Such equipment includes check/choke chains, prong or spike collars, electric shock devices in any form, and high frequency sound devices which are designed to startle"

If they are an APDT member and do indeed recommend shock collars (or spray collars), I would be considering reporting them to the APDT for further investigation.

In reply to krlyr: The class has a trainer and a number of volunteer "helpers"...it was our helper who mentioned it to us.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Have you tried changing the radio station?

In reply to Game of Conkers:
If it were me, I would be having a word with the trainer about their volunteer's advice then. Such a potentially damaging method of training, especially for such a young puppy, that goes against the trainer's own code of practice - that kind of advice especially has no place in an APDT-registered trainer's class.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Yep, I can understand your aim, but I think a closed room is just as safe and secure as a small cage and in many ways is preferable. I'm also aware that, as with most topics, there are two sides to this particular argument and for every expert who is 'pro' crates, you'll find one who isn't, that's all I'm saying. I've had dogs in the past and never felt the need to even consider crating them.

Anyhow, good luck finding a happy solution.

In reply to Fraser: Well if this crate training doesn't go to plan, I will be sitting on your side of the fence

In reply to krlyr:

I am on the committee for this association and this is not the type of advice that we would expect to be given out in a class run by one of our members.

Unfortunatley, some trainers join and do not follow the code of practice or/and joined when the assessment process was not so rigorous. We do not want members in the association who do not follow what has been agreed in their membership.

So, in order to improve the association, we need members of the public who have been given advice contrary to the associations code of practice to report them to us. I believe the complaints procedure is outlined on the website.

Feel free to email me directly, game of conkers.

I do apologise.

Lee

In reply to Indiana:

The class I attend has one "head trainer" and many volunteer helpers (one for each puppy in attendance) which I am very impressed with considering the cost of the course. After the class I spoke with the helper who had been with us (who was mopping up some wee and asked about night time barking. In her defence, she didn't endorse it as anything other than a possible quick cure due to the neighbour complaints.

I would rather deal with it myself tonight than go through yourself if that's ok. I would hate for anyone to get in trouble when it is probably just a naive misunderstanding.

In reply to Game of Conkers:


I'll start one right away.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

I shall turf my hound out of his comfy basket immediately and crate him up in the approved
manner.

Or maybe not.

In reply to Ridge: Obviously no point with an adult dog, but we got a pup 18 months ago, probably 20 years after we last had one, and a crate is a revelation - no chewing of furniture, no stained floorboards - happy dog, happy owners.

In reply to Game of Conkers: We 'crate trained' our dog, as he wouldn't foul in his crate, and it was safe there. Once i felt the 'training' had sunk in, we left the door open, and allowed him in the kitchen with all objects taken on to the worktop out the way (small springer pup so couldnt reach).

Then after a week of this, still no fouling or chewing anything, we accidentely left the door open, and we came home and he had got on to the sofa and was asleep on there! Since then no crate has been needed.

Why are you cage training him, do you intend on using it permanently or just until you get a result you want?

In reply to Ridge:

Seems like an odd idea if you already have a house trained adult dog. Maybe you should re-read my post.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:
Point taken. That said crates, together with clickers, training mats and dedicated bum bags to keep your dog biscuits in appear to be an expensive solution in search of a problem. It's perfectly possible to 'safely and securely' raise a dog without them.

In reply to all: Ok, vast improvement within 24 hours! The crate was moved to living area and dog spent time in there throughout the day at various points whilst family was around (particularly meal times) Also he was fed in there . We put him in there for bed 20 mins before we went to bed ourselves and no barking. Revelation! Hope tonight is the same. Kong has been a roaring success too.

And the bark collar confusion at training was put to bed as well.

thx UKC, this has been a result!

In reply to Ridge:

Expensive? Massive Crate was 15 quid off ebay. Clicker was £1 if I remember and I am sure "bumbags" are not expensive either. Of course you can but not as quickly and efficiently. Police and Guide dogs are trainer quicker using the methods.

In reply to Game of Conkers:

Also forgot to say yesterday it can be soothing to have something which smells of your own family members in with him when alone. My dog will often seek out solitary items of our clothing to cuddle in to. The other morning she was lying in the hallway sleeping with her head on a single solitary sock lol.

In reply to Game of Conkers: Well done you and pup!

In reply to Game of Conkers:

I only read this thread to see what Mr and Mrs Num Num have to offer...

In reply to Game of Conkers:

We have a 'failed' working dog - a Collie.

I'm not going to read all the responses...... We got one, effect was instantaneous and hasn't made the dog a nutcase.

We then got one for training purposes, within a day or so the dog was obeying all the commands she earlier didn't........

She knew what we wanted her to do, but was too wilful to comply.

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

That's rather different from a puppy crying because he's scared, don't you think, as in this case?
I know shock collars can be regarded as a quick fix, as you found, but if you did bother to read the whole thread, you might find some of the arguments for and against their use.

In reply to ceri:

Ceri - As it happened I was in a rush when i replied - The success we had was with a spray collar - not static. So my contribution wasn't relevant to the OPs position. Personally I'd be reluctant to countenance a 'shock' collar.

I'm still in a rush now - sharing may son's laptop on holiday in France in a Gite with a tenuous wireless connection.

Please feel free to take me to task as you see fit - As penance

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

I must read the whole thread

Bollocks - I've got to go now,

Regards,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake: Penance accepted