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Help with what type of hand/forearm work I need to do?

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 Taurig 12 Sep 2012
So from my perusal of this site and various others, I'm under the impression that there are various ways of quantifying grip; strength and power, I think, being the main ones. I'm not going to request to be spoonfeed a training plan, but I'm hoping someone could tell me what aspect of my grip I need to work on, any suggestions on training methods would be a bonus.

As a bit of background, I've been bouldering and top roping indoors since about February this year, and top roping outside since April. I'll leave the outdoor climbing aside for the moment as it's my head that holds me back there, but indoors I'm comfortable with falling off and I think it's my hands and/or forearms holding me back.

I'm currently able to get up the majority of 6a+ routes at my local wall with varying proportions of technique and grunt. The last few weeks I've been trying to break into 6b. On walls that are inclined (declined?) back I find the 6b's mainly about balancey moves and my grip is enough to keep me on the wall. On overhanging 6b's though, whilst I know what shapes to make and can make them in terms of gymnastics, my forearms are screaming pumped on the smaller, mainly crimpy and pocket holds by 1/3 to 1/2 way up, and I just can't hold myself on.

The first thing I tried was to go back to the bouldering wall and get on the steeper problems with more crimps, but I got a strange result; I couldn't generate that painful pump I was looking for. I either had the grip strength and could complete the problem, or I didn't and just fell off from being unable to hold myself onto the wall. Yes, my forearms got gradually tired throughout the session, but I didn't ever get that acute pump. It's strange because the height I was attaining on the 6b's was probably about the same or even less than at the bouldering wall.

So, basically I'm looking for some guidance on what to train? Will using a power ball and doing wrist curls help with the forearm pump, or is it finger strength I need to work on? Do you think it's pure grip strength, is it more endurance based, I don't know? Any advice appreciated.
 Monk 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:


>
> The first thing I tried was to go back to the bouldering wall and get on the steeper problems with more crimps, but I got a strange result; I couldn't generate that painful pump I was looking for. I either had the grip strength and could complete the problem, or I didn't and just fell off from being unable to hold myself onto the wall. Yes, my forearms got gradually tired throughout the session, but I didn't ever get that acute pump. It's strange because the height I was attaining on the 6b's was probably about the same or even less than at the bouldering wall.
>


This sounds to me like you are over-gripping when you are on roped-routes. What grade boulder problems were you completing?
 Styx 12 Sep 2012
Getting pumped isn't due to a lack of grip strength, you need to work on your power endurance and the best way to do that is by climbing and not powerballs/wrist curls/etc.

4x4's are a good climbing based exercise that will help with this, they can be done on routes or boulder problems, personally I prefer to do them on boulders. Find four problems that are a similar style to the 6b routes you're trying, ideally they should be a grade or two below your maximum onsight level. Climb them one after the other without a break between them, rest for 2-3 minutes and then repeat the circuit until you've done it four times, you should only just be able to complete the final problem if you've picked the right level of difficulty.
OP Taurig 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to Taurig)
>
>
> [...]
>
>
> This sounds to me like you are over-gripping when you are on roped-routes. What grade boulder problems were you completing?

You could well be right but I'm not sure, it does feel like I'm getting near my strength limit on those 6b's. If I relaxed my grip, particularly on the overhanging section, I think I'd just pop off. The bouldering routes that are at my limit are probably around Font 4+ to 5.

Styx, interesting, 4X4's sound like they would tear my arms apart! Which is what I'm looking for of course, I will give them a shot.

Perhaps I have no specific weakness, I'm just generally all round weak?
 Styx 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:
> (In reply to Monk)
> [...]

> Styx, interesting, 4X4's sound like they would tear my arms apart! Which is what I'm looking for of course, I will give them a shot.
>

That's pretty much the point! In order to get stronger you have to overload, thus forcing the body to adapt. You'll need to repeat it a couple of times a week for 4-6 weeks but if you've not done any training before you should see some initial gains fairly quickly. If you don't then just keep at it, they will come.
 jkarran 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:

> As a bit of background, I've been bouldering and top roping indoors since about February this year, and top roping outside since April. I'll leave the outdoor climbing aside for the moment as it's my head that holds me back there, but indoors I'm comfortable with falling off and I think it's my hands and/or forearms holding me back.

I bet it's not. That's not to say it's not worth getting stronger, more that the biggest and safest gains you'll make given your relative inexperience will likely come from exploiting your feet better and improving your efficiency.

> ...whilst I know what shapes to make and can make them in terms of gymnastics, my forearms are screaming pumped on the smaller, mainly crimpy and pocket holds by 1/3 to 1/2 way up, and I just can't hold myself on.

With sticky out footholds you should barely need to hold yourself on even on modestly overhanging walls.

> ...but I didn't ever get that acute pump. It's strange because the height I was attaining on the 6b's was probably about the same or even less than at the bouldering wall.

Was the pacing the same? Are you really as relaxed about falling as you think?

> So, basically I'm looking for some guidance on what to train?

Climbing mildly overhanging walls, the sort of thing that's causing you to pump out. Get quick and genuinely relaxed so you're not afraid to fail/fall. Once you're comfortable increase the grade a notch and get comfortable again. Don't just dog up resting on the clips, if a route needs rests or causes a fall then work it out and redpoint it, the process is quite enlightening.

On the bouldering wall pick similar angles to the routes you want to do and move around on the holds, twist this way and that experimenting to see which motion unloads which limb and which position gives the best reach in each direction. Find the sneaky rests and shakeout positions. Then find the really sneaky ones.

> Will using a power ball and doing wrist curls help with the forearm pump.

Probably not though you'll get big forearms if you do enough. Squishy ball finger exercisers seem to help me keep my fingers from stiffening up after climbing but I only use the soft ones and not routinely.

> or is it finger strength I need to work on? Do you think it's pure grip strength, is it more endurance based, I don't know? Any advice appreciated.

It sounds like an endurance problem to me. As I said earlier it's unlikely to be a physical limitation. Maybe because I'm lazy and weak I'd go for efficiency over strength every time. Maybe that's why I'm lazy and weak!

jk
 Monk 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:

> (In reply to Monk)
> [...]
>
> You could well be right but I'm not sure, it does feel like I'm getting near my strength limit on those 6b's. If I relaxed my grip, particularly on the overhanging section, I think I'd just pop off. The bouldering routes that are at my limit are probably around Font 4+ to 5.
>

Okay, that changes things a little. I assumed the boulder problems would be a higher grade. I think that the grades you are reporting don't really compare. Are you getting the 6a+ routes easily in one go? What is your success rate for onsighting them?

On a 6b route, you would expect to be climbing something like a Font5+ or even 6a boulder problem as the crux, surrounded by easier climbing. Unless you can climb Font5+/6a boulder problems, I think that 6b routes are going to feel hard. This may well mean that it is strength that is holding you back to an extent. However, there is likely to be a whole cocktail of factors playing a part - technique, over gripping, psychology, stamina, power endurance...

In my opinion, concentrating on harder bouldering for a good few weeks will both increase your strength and (hopefully) technique.
 PeterJuggler 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig: Climbing routes or doing a boulder problem several times without rest is your best bet but at home you could also do repeaters on a fingerboard to develop power endurance (7s on 3s off X7). Anything that will get your arms pumped.
OP Taurig 12 Sep 2012
In reply to jkarran:

You make a lot of very good points, thanks for replying.

To answer a few of your questions, regarding falling, I've not started leading yet, and I trust my belayer so I'm pretty much fine with falling on top rope. Regards the footwork, I fully admit to be a novice/punter so my footwork isn't going to be the best, but I am aware of how important it is and from the start I've always been looking at the feet first, hands second. I take your point that better footwork would make the climbing easier, but I still feel there is a lot of room to improve my strength.

To break it down: on slabby walls I have passable footwork and generally no problems with grip strength or pump. On severely overhanging walls (mainly at the bouldering wall) with good sized juggy holds, I generally have the strength in the upper arms and rest of the body to get up them, and the limiting factor is usually skin starting to get painful. Somewhere in the middle, with a modest overhang and medium sized crimpy holds, holding my upper body in position whilst I move my feet up and then going for the next hand hold has my forearms screaming. I can feel my grip on the holds gradually weaking, until at some point I make a move for the next one, and find that I just don't have the grip there to keep me on the wall.
OP Taurig 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to Taurig)
>
> [...]
>
> Okay, that changes things a little. I assumed the boulder problems would be a higher grade. I think that the grades you are reporting don't really compare. Are you getting the 6a+ routes easily in one go? What is your success rate for onsighting them?
>
> On a 6b route, you would expect to be climbing something like a Font5+ or even 6a boulder problem as the crux, surrounded by easier climbing. Unless you can climb Font5+/6a boulder problems, I think that 6b routes are going to feel hard. This may well mean that it is strength that is holding you back to an extent. However, there is likely to be a whole cocktail of factors playing a part - technique, over gripping, psychology, stamina, power endurance...
>
> In my opinion, concentrating on harder bouldering for a good few weeks will both increase your strength and (hopefully) technique.

On the 6a+ routes that are on a slabby wall I tend to have the most success, vertical is usually ok, and the overhanging I find the toughest but I've still been managing to grunt my way up them, usually first try or second. I've found the same pattern with 6b's so far; the slabby routes where you need to get into awkward shapes, balancing on small wall features rather than holds etc. have been tough, don't get me wrong, but I've generally got up them first go. It's the overhanging 6b's that kill my arms, so leading me to assume that grip strength is the issue.
 Stefan Kruger 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:

Boulder. A lot.

You will improve your technique, and get stronger. At the level you're climbing, it's unlikely your strength that's holding you back, as others have pointed out. Power and skills take time to develop, whereas stamina comes (and goes, sadly) a lot quicker. Even if you have route objectives, spend the majority of your time bouldering, and 6-8 weeks prior to your main objective (say a trip to Kaly or Mallorca), do laps on a circuit board, 30-50 moves with a minute between laps, three days a week.

In my humble opinion, the above will super-charge your grades much quicker than will any toil on a lead wall.
OP Taurig 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Stefan Kruger:

Thanks for the reply. That's mutliple suggestions now of keeping at the bouldering, so I think I'd be daft not to take that on board. I'll have to look into some exercises to do at home though, as the bouldering wall at £8 a time starts to get expensive if you go more than once a week.

I know that as a beginner there are a multitude of areas that can all be improved, but I still feel I have pretty weak forearms and grip strength. I don't find that massively surprising as I'm not a gym bunny and find using one of those gripmasters extremely tedious.

One example I can give is of a bouldering problem that I have repeatedly failed at. It starts by stradling up an arete formed from two overhanging walls meeting. A few lunging moves on decent holds gets you to the crux. The holds then move onto the left wall, where you have a small ledge for your left foot and a wide pincher hold directly above that for the hands, and the final hold above left of that. As I've seen better climbers do, the idea is to get in balance on the ledge with your feet, then get your right hand off the right wall and match it with the left hand on the pinch hold, before reaching up and left. Despite being as in balance as I can be, as soon as my right hand leaves it's hold to match the left, the left hand just doesn't have the strength to stay on the hold, it slides off, and I end up on my arse.

I'm sure there are dozens of things I could be doing better to make that move, but it seems to me like being able to keep a grip on that pinch hold with the left would be of major benefit.
 jkarran 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:

> To answer a few of your questions, regarding falling, I've not started leading yet...

Give it a go, don't build barriers up in your mind.

> ...I fully admit to be a novice/punter so my footwork isn't going to be the best, but I am aware of how important it is and from the start I've always been looking at the feet first, hands second. I take your point that better footwork would make the climbing easier, but I still feel there is a lot of room to improve my strength.

I'm sure there is but it's a long hard road with much injury risk. Improving your technique takes time, work and maybe some external input but carries little risk. The performance gains for you will be enormous.

> To break it down...

What you're describing sounds very much like someone in need of some movement coaching, not bigger guns. Your strength and fitness will develop fast enough as you climb, you'll not leave it lagging too far behind if you just climb and focus on your movement for a while.

jk
OP Taurig 12 Sep 2012
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Taurig)
> What you're describing sounds very much like someone in need of some movement coaching, not bigger guns. Your strength and fitness will develop fast enough as you climb, you'll not leave it lagging too far behind if you just climb and focus on your movement for a while.
>
> jk

What you're saying does make sense. It also ties in with the fact that I have fairly modest natural ability when it comes to any sort of sport. You ever seen someone who has never done a particular sport, but rocks up and is more than competent from the first go? Yeah, that's not me.

Perhaps some coaching lessons early on could go a long way. I don't know anyone else that climbs better than me apart from my partner who started at the same time of me, and IS one of those gits with a natural ability. Unfortunately, like a lot of folk with ability, he just does it rather than being able to explain it, and I can't see what he's doing different. He is skinnier with stronger arms than me, though, which I propose goes a long way.

 Jon Wickham 12 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig: It is aimed at mountaineers, but I found Andy Kirkpatrick's 'Hands' eBook an interesting and useful read: http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/books
MarkT 13 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:

A long time ago I once asked someone how to get better/stronger (I'd been climbing for about six months at the time). He just said "Do lots of bouldering" - it worked so you can't go wrong with following the same plan.

Here's a few extra basic pointers though - more bouldering will only get you so far on routes so the basic prescription is:

1. Short problems for strength
2. Long problems for power-endurance.
3. Long & steep routes for endurance/stamina.
4. Keep working on your technique, especially stuff that gets you up overhanging stuff more efficiently (egyptians, outside/inside flags, twist-locks etc).
5. Learn how to rest using heelhooks and kneebars.
6. Repeat 3 to 4 times a week until you can crush 9a or all your pulleys gunshot.
7. After a while, if your tendons are still in existence, throw in some campusing and fingerboarding until they aren't.

Hope this helps!
Paul Twomey 13 Sep 2012
In reply to Taurig:
It does seem that some technique coaching would do you the world of good. Get that dialled, stress proof it with endurance and then work on your PE.

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