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Anyone had this op? How did you get back into climbing ...if you did get back into climbing? Did you find knee supports helpful? Did you find swimming or running helpful? How long till you got back into climbing?
Any info would be appreciated.
Thought I'd ask the UKC knowledge base!
Any info would be appreciated.
Thought I'd ask the UKC knowledge base!
In reply to The sharp end:
Had the op in Sept 2008. I was top-roping indoors very carefully after about 6 weeks, and leading sports routes outside after about 3 months (with the first two bolts pre-clipped to make sure I couldn't hit the ground). I was trad climbing again after about 6 months, and bouldering properly again after a year (though I'm still careful about falling from too high and don't tend to commit to high cruxes like I used to, but have been on successful bouldering trips to Font and Bishop since the op). I also started skiing again after a couple of years.
I never used a knee support post-op because I wanted my knee to get used to working and supporting itself, which maybe made me a little more conservative initially, but has worked out fine long term.
I did some running and cycling as post-op rehab (I've never been much of a swimming fan). My knee got back to a reasonable state fairly quickly, but I noticed big improvements a couple of years ago after we got a dog and I started running about doing short sprints and changing direction a lot whilst playing with the dog on the beach. At the same time, I started working offshore which meant I wasn't sat behind a desk all day and was going up and down lots of stairs on a regular basis.
Anyway, that's my experience. Definitely did the right thing in getting the op.
Had the op in Sept 2008. I was top-roping indoors very carefully after about 6 weeks, and leading sports routes outside after about 3 months (with the first two bolts pre-clipped to make sure I couldn't hit the ground). I was trad climbing again after about 6 months, and bouldering properly again after a year (though I'm still careful about falling from too high and don't tend to commit to high cruxes like I used to, but have been on successful bouldering trips to Font and Bishop since the op). I also started skiing again after a couple of years.
I never used a knee support post-op because I wanted my knee to get used to working and supporting itself, which maybe made me a little more conservative initially, but has worked out fine long term.
I did some running and cycling as post-op rehab (I've never been much of a swimming fan). My knee got back to a reasonable state fairly quickly, but I noticed big improvements a couple of years ago after we got a dog and I started running about doing short sprints and changing direction a lot whilst playing with the dog on the beach. At the same time, I started working offshore which meant I wasn't sat behind a desk all day and was going up and down lots of stairs on a regular basis.
Anyway, that's my experience. Definitely did the right thing in getting the op.
In reply to The sharp end:
I have a friend who had his ACL "done" and his progression sounds pretty much like Stuart's above.
From my experience, I'm currently suffering with a knee problem (although not ACL) and my physio has told me NOT to use a knee support as you want to be working your muscles and a knee support makes the muscles "lazy". A very simplistic explanation but makes sense to me.
I have a friend who had his ACL "done" and his progression sounds pretty much like Stuart's above.
From my experience, I'm currently suffering with a knee problem (although not ACL) and my physio has told me NOT to use a knee support as you want to be working your muscles and a knee support makes the muscles "lazy". A very simplistic explanation but makes sense to me.
In reply to The sharp end:
I had my ACL reconstruced a few years ago, it does knock you out for a few months, but having the op at the start of March, I was climbing again as normal by the end of the summer inc. an Alps trip. Winter climbing has been fine in the years since then as well.
I didn't wear knee supports apart from during physio / recovery where it was recommended. I did when skiing though.
I started exercising in the gym after the op as it was more controlled and I could easily do the full range of exercises on the program produced by my physio, first outdoors exercise was road cycling, then hill walking and running.
Biggest thing I'd say, is get a good physio that is used to working with sports injuries and re-habilitating folk partaking. A lot of physios esp on the NHS are briefed to get you back to "normal" life i.e. walking to the shops etc rather than back to taking part in sports. Worth shopping around if you can and getting feedback from folk that have used individual physios.
Likewise, if you can research your surgeon do so and see what his reputation is.
Cheers,
Stuart
I had my ACL reconstruced a few years ago, it does knock you out for a few months, but having the op at the start of March, I was climbing again as normal by the end of the summer inc. an Alps trip. Winter climbing has been fine in the years since then as well.
I didn't wear knee supports apart from during physio / recovery where it was recommended. I did when skiing though.
I started exercising in the gym after the op as it was more controlled and I could easily do the full range of exercises on the program produced by my physio, first outdoors exercise was road cycling, then hill walking and running.
Biggest thing I'd say, is get a good physio that is used to working with sports injuries and re-habilitating folk partaking. A lot of physios esp on the NHS are briefed to get you back to "normal" life i.e. walking to the shops etc rather than back to taking part in sports. Worth shopping around if you can and getting feedback from folk that have used individual physios.
Likewise, if you can research your surgeon do so and see what his reputation is.
Cheers,
Stuart
In reply to The sharp end: #
Same as others really. Physio said no to knee supports and also didn't like my idea of swimming.
Nowadays i forget i had it done ( 7 yrs ago ).
Same as others really. Physio said no to knee supports and also didn't like my idea of swimming.
Nowadays i forget i had it done ( 7 yrs ago ).
In reply to The sharp end:
It depends on how bad the initial damage is and what you need to have done.
Mine was very bad and had cartilage issues etc.
I think when people say no knee support they mean after it's healed?
I had a richards splint on my leg for 6 weeks which means no knee bending at all, cos you want it to grow back and bend in the correct direction.
Muscle you can build up after it's healed. My physio was an ex army girl and seemed very sports friendly, if a bit bossy. I walked to the hospital for my first appt (a week after the op, I think) and she just said don't be a wanker, why rush it?
All the ligaments are crucial but 2 are cruciate.
It depends on how bad the initial damage is and what you need to have done.
Mine was very bad and had cartilage issues etc.
I think when people say no knee support they mean after it's healed?
I had a richards splint on my leg for 6 weeks which means no knee bending at all, cos you want it to grow back and bend in the correct direction.
Muscle you can build up after it's healed. My physio was an ex army girl and seemed very sports friendly, if a bit bossy. I walked to the hospital for my first appt (a week after the op, I think) and she just said don't be a wanker, why rush it?
All the ligaments are crucial but 2 are cruciate.
In reply to The sharp end:
I have have blown 2 ACL's and had 3 other knee surgeries. I can echo all above esp on comparing physiotherapist. The exercises are pretty simple, but it is all about finding a motivating person. Try to look for a shop that focus on sport injuries, and not general populace.
Also secondly the rehab protocols are all GUIDELINES, you should be listening to your body on whether something is okay to do.
As long as you know the difference between healing pain and daminging pain you will be fine.
I have have blown 2 ACL's and had 3 other knee surgeries. I can echo all above esp on comparing physiotherapist. The exercises are pretty simple, but it is all about finding a motivating person. Try to look for a shop that focus on sport injuries, and not general populace.
Also secondly the rehab protocols are all GUIDELINES, you should be listening to your body on whether something is okay to do.
As long as you know the difference between healing pain and daminging pain you will be fine.
In reply to The sharp end:
Sorry to hear about your knee.
Broadly agree with what's been said above re: recovery time and not using knee supports etc. The only thing I'd add is that I find cycling really good as it keeps the hamstrings strong and the knee stable, plus it's non-impact.
Best of luck with it.
Alasdair
Sorry to hear about your knee.
Broadly agree with what's been said above re: recovery time and not using knee supports etc. The only thing I'd add is that I find cycling really good as it keeps the hamstrings strong and the knee stable, plus it's non-impact.
Best of luck with it.
Alasdair
In reply to The sharp end:
Wow!!! Thanks so much for the REALLY constructive advise. This info is for my climbing partner who does not have an account here and I am providing moral support. One thing is for sure...a ligament transplant is what they are doing to do. Did you guys have the same? Full on rupture so they are getting a hamstring ligament to replace the broken one and screw it back on! Ouch!
Wow!!! Thanks so much for the REALLY constructive advise. This info is for my climbing partner who does not have an account here and I am providing moral support. One thing is for sure...a ligament transplant is what they are doing to do. Did you guys have the same? Full on rupture so they are getting a hamstring ligament to replace the broken one and screw it back on! Ouch!
In reply to The sharp end:
ps I agree bouldering will have to wait for a while...don't think he'll like that!
ps I agree bouldering will have to wait for a while...don't think he'll like that!
In reply to The sharp end: yes same op, deffo no swimming plenty of cycling and paitence!
In reply to The sharp end: Hi I am four months post op, full rupture, repaired using the hamstring, also had bad meniscus danage. I spent six weeks on crutches none weight bearing. Started climbing again after twelve weeks seconding only, leading after fourteen weeks. As others have suggested cycling helps a lot in the reabilitation. The only issues I am having is with the hamstring where the graft was taken from, sharp pains every now and then, I use a cheap knee support when climbing and these pains go away. I do hope to do away with the support eventually.
In reply to Simonpeel:
Thanks Simon for all the insight. Sounds exactly the same scenario and glad you are better.
And everyone else, my climbing partner reading this now and realising there is light at end of the tunnel!
Thanks tons again!
Thanks Simon for all the insight. Sounds exactly the same scenario and glad you are better.
And everyone else, my climbing partner reading this now and realising there is light at end of the tunnel!
Thanks tons again!
In reply to The sharp end: I had ACL reconstruction with hamstring autograft in May.
After 6 weeks I was rowing, 12 weeks leading easy trad. 16 weeks I boulder but don't fall or jump.
Hamstring feels weak and hurts with steep climbing (especially heel hooks) and will take further time to strengthen.
I also tore my MCL and still worry about walking on very rutted ground (moorland).
Good luck, it was quite depressing but I can see things will get back to normal but not till Christmas!
After 6 weeks I was rowing, 12 weeks leading easy trad. 16 weeks I boulder but don't fall or jump.
Hamstring feels weak and hurts with steep climbing (especially heel hooks) and will take further time to strengthen.
I also tore my MCL and still worry about walking on very rutted ground (moorland).
Good luck, it was quite depressing but I can see things will get back to normal but not till Christmas!
I had a bad fall skiing at Xmas 2009 on Aonach Mor. My knee swelled up and was extremely sore and tender and I was hobbling for a about two months before I went and saw a physio who diagnosed me with a torn ACL requiring reconstruction. Because of my main job I decided to have the operation the following Xmas (2010, ten months later). I was prescribed with lots of physio which helped to strengthen and stabilise the knee, but my leg would collapse and I would end up on the floor every now and again much to everyone's amusement. As a result of the successful physio I was still able to lead a trekking trip in the Peruvian Andes that summer. Fast forward to the operation, and I was shitting myself. I needn't have- the op was very straight forward. I had a leg splint, crutches and some wicked painkillers. The physio (NHS, who was awesome, and very sports orientated!)advised me to ditch the splint after a few days, and I was on to ONE crutch after two weeks, and got rid of both of them after week five. The rehab process is onerous and sometimes very sore and painful, as the physio stretches and bends your stiff knee to improve mobility. Cycling is great as it doesn't put your leg into off-centre bends in the same way that swimming can. The process takes about nine months of hard work- I was at it four of five days a week. Its only know, about 18 months after the operation that I feel confident enough to properly sprint and change direction on my knee, but it feels great- no regrets what so ever! Don't bother with the knee supports, and crack on with strengthening exercises as soon as...
PS did everyone else get a full NHS physio programme? I had mine in Edinburgh and I have to say- I was very impressed with everything, apart from my useless GP who didn't know anything about knee injuries....
In reply to sargy:
PPS- I did the worst thing possible before I had my op- I googled to find out other peoples' experiences, and really wished I hadn't. There were so many horror stories, but I guess people don't go and shout about successful ops in the same way others complain about them. I really do feel that my crocked knee after the op and subsequent physio is now stronger than it was pre-injury....
PPS- I did the worst thing possible before I had my op- I googled to find out other peoples' experiences, and really wished I hadn't. There were so many horror stories, but I guess people don't go and shout about successful ops in the same way others complain about them. I really do feel that my crocked knee after the op and subsequent physio is now stronger than it was pre-injury....
In reply to sargy: I had the op and phyiso done on the NHS (gisburne park Lancashire) I had six secessions of phyiso, not sure if thats a full program or not. I was expecting a little more with a greater intensity. I did the silly thing and read everything on google though.
In reply to Simonpeel:
Wow- I started off with a once a week visit to the physio until about 12 weeks after op, then the physio sessions started ramping up to three sessions a week, and they would tell you off if you couldn't make it! The style of rehab was tailored for each individual's sport, and went on for about four months. We would get strapped into this machine called a Bio-Dex which wouldn't measure and compare your muscle strength/endurance between both legs. It was horrific, as you weren't given a set amount of repetitions, you just had to keep going until your leg physically gave up! It was amusing to watch us patients trying to hide from the physios when it was there turn to be strapped up to the Bio-Dex!
Wow- I started off with a once a week visit to the physio until about 12 weeks after op, then the physio sessions started ramping up to three sessions a week, and they would tell you off if you couldn't make it! The style of rehab was tailored for each individual's sport, and went on for about four months. We would get strapped into this machine called a Bio-Dex which wouldn't measure and compare your muscle strength/endurance between both legs. It was horrific, as you weren't given a set amount of repetitions, you just had to keep going until your leg physically gave up! It was amusing to watch us patients trying to hide from the physios when it was there turn to be strapped up to the Bio-Dex!
In reply to The sharp end:
I had mine done last February, so I'm in month 8 of recovery. I had an allograft (achilles tendon from a cadavar). I also had badly sprained lateral collateral ligaments and torn mensicus that had to be partially dissected.
I'm getting better continually, but at nothing like the rate of the other posters. This may be partially because of the other damage, especially the mensicus, but also because, at 68, I'm probably quite a bit older than the others. Discussion with my doc and extensive research on the internet suggested a year's recovery; 8-12 months is is a pretty common figure for professional athletes, who are typically less than half my age, have state-of-the-art rehab facilities, and have nothing else to do except work on rehab, whereas I am still working full-time. Their demands are ultimately more intense than mine, but I figure the other factors even out the recovery time.
I've done rehab exercises pretty continually. I wore knee braces for the first month or two. Allografts are more vulnerable early in the healing process than autografts and that accounts for the conservative use of the braces. I use poles for all my hiking, and still have some pain and weakness when I have to step down more than a foot or so. I can't really run yet; pain builds up in the knee pretty rapidly when I try. Walking and hiking are fine; it is the increased impacts of running I'm having trouble tolerating. I'm pretty sure this more related to the removed meniscus than the ACL repair, however.
As for range of motion, my leg straightens completely, but I can't quite sit on my heel yet; stretching this out has been a very long and slow process and it seems likely that I'll need several more months of it.
Climbing hasn't been too seriously affected, after factoring in the deconditioning effects of more than half a year away from the rocks. I'm currently leading 5.8's in the Gunks, which roughly translates to HVS I think. I wasn't managing to lead much better than mid 5.10 (trad) before the injury, and that level seems possible to attain again and at this point requires mostly conditioning of other body parts, not the knee.
I had mine done last February, so I'm in month 8 of recovery. I had an allograft (achilles tendon from a cadavar). I also had badly sprained lateral collateral ligaments and torn mensicus that had to be partially dissected.
I'm getting better continually, but at nothing like the rate of the other posters. This may be partially because of the other damage, especially the mensicus, but also because, at 68, I'm probably quite a bit older than the others. Discussion with my doc and extensive research on the internet suggested a year's recovery; 8-12 months is is a pretty common figure for professional athletes, who are typically less than half my age, have state-of-the-art rehab facilities, and have nothing else to do except work on rehab, whereas I am still working full-time. Their demands are ultimately more intense than mine, but I figure the other factors even out the recovery time.
I've done rehab exercises pretty continually. I wore knee braces for the first month or two. Allografts are more vulnerable early in the healing process than autografts and that accounts for the conservative use of the braces. I use poles for all my hiking, and still have some pain and weakness when I have to step down more than a foot or so. I can't really run yet; pain builds up in the knee pretty rapidly when I try. Walking and hiking are fine; it is the increased impacts of running I'm having trouble tolerating. I'm pretty sure this more related to the removed meniscus than the ACL repair, however.
As for range of motion, my leg straightens completely, but I can't quite sit on my heel yet; stretching this out has been a very long and slow process and it seems likely that I'll need several more months of it.
Climbing hasn't been too seriously affected, after factoring in the deconditioning effects of more than half a year away from the rocks. I'm currently leading 5.8's in the Gunks, which roughly translates to HVS I think. I wasn't managing to lead much better than mid 5.10 (trad) before the injury, and that level seems possible to attain again and at this point requires mostly conditioning of other body parts, not the knee.
In reply to The sharp end: Nobody seems to have said but intially more important than the pyhsio/re-hab is to find a great surgeon. On the nhs you can specify who you want the op done by.
I also noticed that a lot of people who have had it done are saying that they have got back to 'exercise' after a few months.
The new ligament goes through a few stages on the way back to full strength (9-12 months).
Initially the ligament is strong but obviously the knee is sore and swollen so movement is naturally limited.
Then the intially swelling goes down and range of movement is greatly increased and almost getting back to normal, giving you the sense that everything is going great...however the grafts 'connections' actually get weaker in this period and it is very important to be ultra careful with it. (1-5months)
I really wouldn't suggest climbing until around 6 months. Your physio should be giving you plyometric exercises in this period anyway. Stick with them and resist the temptation to go too hard too soon. Try to do all exercises with perfect form and stretch stretch stretch!
On a positive note I was running 5 min miles on the running machine within 6 months at the physio sessions.
Slacklining after 9 months.
Had great fun putting big plastic hoops on the floor and having to jump like a madman between them.
I never even think about it now.
Keep a positive mental outlook and enjoy the fact that if you do everything right your knee will be stronger after than it was before
I also noticed that a lot of people who have had it done are saying that they have got back to 'exercise' after a few months.
The new ligament goes through a few stages on the way back to full strength (9-12 months).
Initially the ligament is strong but obviously the knee is sore and swollen so movement is naturally limited.
Then the intially swelling goes down and range of movement is greatly increased and almost getting back to normal, giving you the sense that everything is going great...however the grafts 'connections' actually get weaker in this period and it is very important to be ultra careful with it. (1-5months)
I really wouldn't suggest climbing until around 6 months. Your physio should be giving you plyometric exercises in this period anyway. Stick with them and resist the temptation to go too hard too soon. Try to do all exercises with perfect form and stretch stretch stretch!
On a positive note I was running 5 min miles on the running machine within 6 months at the physio sessions.
Slacklining after 9 months.
Had great fun putting big plastic hoops on the floor and having to jump like a madman between them.
I never even think about it now.
Keep a positive mental outlook and enjoy the fact that if you do everything right your knee will be stronger after than it was before
In reply to The sharp end:
In a nutshell... I'm a pretty actice person with an active job 2 years post ACL MCL Meniscus injury done while skiing. I initially tried to rehab the knee conservatively (no surgery, on the advice of the consultant I saw) and it stabilised and gained strength well.. I started top roping 3 1/2 months after the initial injury and it just felt good, and was soon back climbing harder than I had before. Admittedly I hadn't been slimbing for long so didn't have much of a skill level to start from! It all went wrong though about just over a year after the initial injury as one day the knee just gave way whilst skiing again. Fast forward 9 months and I have had it operated on. I am 4 1/2 months post surgery and started climbing again a couple weeks ago. I have to say I'm really struggling, not with the knee as thats fine but its my head as i just can't trust it or make myself stand up on it, even though I know its fine! Perhaps slightly stupidly i hadn't really antisipated this as i din't have any issues last time with my head. I'd be really interested to share this with others on here who have had/ are having a similar experience. Its such a long long rehab with ups and downs, and quite good to be able to share it with others who have similar aims to get back to - I was the only young actice person at the Knee rehab session I went to at physio.
Sharp End have a look at http://www.kneeclinic.info/ not as going there as a patient just they have really good, clear info about it all.
Also you have to be quite clear that any opereation they do won't be a ligament transplant as they don't repair or put other ligaments in, its normally tendons either patellar or hamstring from yourself or maybe achilles from a donor. it can make quite a bit difference for the rehab. I had a hamstring graft, and also lateral cartilage repair.
I could write for hours about what I have learnt over the last 2 years about knees, health service in different countries, fitness etc but would bore everyone, and also I'm now late for going to meet someone in the Peaks for 2nd attempt and trad climbing again. hoping it'll be more successful than last weekend! Bon Courage everyone who is going through it it does get better ( so I'm told). Ali
In a nutshell... I'm a pretty actice person with an active job 2 years post ACL MCL Meniscus injury done while skiing. I initially tried to rehab the knee conservatively (no surgery, on the advice of the consultant I saw) and it stabilised and gained strength well.. I started top roping 3 1/2 months after the initial injury and it just felt good, and was soon back climbing harder than I had before. Admittedly I hadn't been slimbing for long so didn't have much of a skill level to start from! It all went wrong though about just over a year after the initial injury as one day the knee just gave way whilst skiing again. Fast forward 9 months and I have had it operated on. I am 4 1/2 months post surgery and started climbing again a couple weeks ago. I have to say I'm really struggling, not with the knee as thats fine but its my head as i just can't trust it or make myself stand up on it, even though I know its fine! Perhaps slightly stupidly i hadn't really antisipated this as i din't have any issues last time with my head. I'd be really interested to share this with others on here who have had/ are having a similar experience. Its such a long long rehab with ups and downs, and quite good to be able to share it with others who have similar aims to get back to - I was the only young actice person at the Knee rehab session I went to at physio.
Sharp End have a look at http://www.kneeclinic.info/ not as going there as a patient just they have really good, clear info about it all.
Also you have to be quite clear that any opereation they do won't be a ligament transplant as they don't repair or put other ligaments in, its normally tendons either patellar or hamstring from yourself or maybe achilles from a donor. it can make quite a bit difference for the rehab. I had a hamstring graft, and also lateral cartilage repair.
I could write for hours about what I have learnt over the last 2 years about knees, health service in different countries, fitness etc but would bore everyone, and also I'm now late for going to meet someone in the Peaks for 2nd attempt and trad climbing again. hoping it'll be more successful than last weekend! Bon Courage everyone who is going through it it does get better ( so I'm told). Ali
In reply to aligibb:
climbing update - have managed 2 days climbing gritstone in the peaks and leading trad again and v relieved thats it is in there somewhere and not disappeared. Sticking to easy stuff but I was happier toproping harder routes that I would have been freaking out on a week ago. Still struggle to believe that my knee will hold when I stand on it sometimes and I won't end up in a heap on the floor as happened before the op but making progress!
Whatever route you go down for surgery or not, it takes alot of very tedious work doing exercises/physio and gym but it very doable and you will get there. Back on the bike tomorrow for me... Ali
climbing update - have managed 2 days climbing gritstone in the peaks and leading trad again and v relieved thats it is in there somewhere and not disappeared. Sticking to easy stuff but I was happier toproping harder routes that I would have been freaking out on a week ago. Still struggle to believe that my knee will hold when I stand on it sometimes and I won't end up in a heap on the floor as happened before the op but making progress!
Whatever route you go down for surgery or not, it takes alot of very tedious work doing exercises/physio and gym but it very doable and you will get there. Back on the bike tomorrow for me... Ali
Dear All
Partner's op next week and has been religiously reading all your posts. Thanks a lot! It is nice to have feedback from fellow climbers and thus he is now more prepared for what is to come.
Much much appreciated! I wish a speedy recovery and happy climbing to all those that have shared their ACL ligament woes and triumphs with us!
Partner's op next week and has been religiously reading all your posts. Thanks a lot! It is nice to have feedback from fellow climbers and thus he is now more prepared for what is to come.
Much much appreciated! I wish a speedy recovery and happy climbing to all those that have shared their ACL ligament woes and triumphs with us!
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