UKC

I'm able to upgrade some of my winter kit this year (yay!) and the online descriptions of Patagonia's Winter Sun hoody make it look like an ideal jacket for Scottish winter conditions. Does anyone have any experience with these jackets? I get cold very quickly and easily, so above all, I need something *warm.* A little bit of windproofness and water resistance are added perks.

I'm currently using a twelve-year old down EMS (American company) belay jacket that really needs to be retired from Scottish winters. I'm open to other suggestions along the lines of the Patagonia, but really want to go the synthetic route.

In reply to Emily_pipes:

ME Fitzroy?

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Emily, the Winter Sun is a good jacket, but as a pure belay jacket I think it falls down due to a few issues. There are better pure belay jackets around for the money (IMO only).

Bear in mind these are just my thoughts, and you might see some of them these "negatives" as "positives" (especially point 2):

1.) The Winter Sun now uses 100g Primaloft Eco which is neither as warm nor as hydrophobic as Primaloft One - if you look on the Primaloft website it suggests Primaloft Eco is roughly 2/3rds as warm as Primaloft One.

2.) It also has a Gore Wind Stopper lining which is basically Gore Tex without the taped seams. This is good for reducing wind and keeping some water out, but it means that if the jacket gets wet on the inside (which is VERY likely if your throwing it on over all your other layers in winter) it will not dry out easily from your body heat.

3.) The hood is not very big and hence very tight when worn over a helmet. This also means you can't close the zip fully on some occasions.

Regarding warmth:
There are many jackets on the market which are specifically designed as belay jackets, off the top of my head ME Citadel (200g Primaloft One), ME Fitzroy (100g Primaloft One), Patagonia DAS Parka (170g Primaloft One). Out of these the ME Citadel is the warmest but also the heaviest at 900g.

If I was to buy a belay jacket tomorrow it would probably be the Patagonia DAS Parka beacuse a.) it is very warm b.) it is not overly heavy c.) it dries out easily d.) the hood is excellent, e.) the internal stuff pockets are huge and easy to throw gloves etc into, f.) build quality is high.

Having said all of which there are some very good deals (try Outside) on the Womens Winter Sun at the moment, and it might suit your needs perfectly.

In reply to rosmat:

I have a jacket with the eco and jacket with one, but one is much heavier than other so its hard to compare directly, but do you really think the difference is so much? I've used various synth filled jackets and they seem rather much of muchness if they are around the same thickness (grms/mtr2 or whatever it is they measure it in).

In reply to TobyA:

Not sure, but Primaloft website suggests a wet rating of 90 CLO/OZ for P1 and 60 CLO/OZ for Eco.

http://www.primaloft.com/uk/performance/products/primaloft-eco.html

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Someone selling a large here:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/classifieds-section/patagonia-mammut-and...

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Cheers, guys.

I can't get much of a sense of what these things are like, just looking at them on the internet, and I live 50 miles from anywhere so can't easily nip to the local gear shop.

I want warmth above all else. I'm not bothered if the warmest is a little bit heavier. I run so cold I was probably a lizard in a previous life. Sounds like the ME Citadel or the Patagonia DAS should be at the top of my list?

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Emily,

Here are some useful links to previous UKC articles by Toby:

Belay Jackets general info:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1375

ME Citadel Review:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4444

And a some reviews of the DAS:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_re...


If you buy from a decent supplier then you can always return it if it doesn't fit / you don't like it.

One word of warning if you do choose a Patagonia DAS: the DAS fit is slightly oversized (so it easily goes over everything else). I am 6ft and 11 stone and a medium fits me easily. You will want a small I would guess.

In reply to rosmat:

It looks like it wouldn't help me if I were in town, as none of the three main Glasgow outdoor shops (Cotswold, Tiso, and Nevis Sport) offer the DAS or the Citadel on their websites, so they probably would not have them in the stores, either.

The internet tells me that the Citadel might be warmer and it certainly is cheaper and easier to find a deal online (more shops sell them -- makes sense as ME is a UK company).

How are the zips on Citadels? I used an ME Gore Tex shell for about four years, but the zips were rather flimsy and have since died.

In reply to Emily_pipes: It's quite a chunky zip on the Citadel, can't see it wearing out, although I've had very few problems with any zips on jackets. My DAS parka is over ten years old and zip is fine. The warmth thing is a bit swings and roundabouts - the Citadel is definitely warmer just being worn as a jacket on a cold day, but the DAS goes over a harness racked full of gear for example so sort of fits better as a belay jacket and if it's easier to use, it will keep you warmer!

For absolute warmth though, consider the Citadel (or a down filled jacket of similar design).

In reply to rosmat: There's a women's version of the Citadel too http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/the_gear/clothing/insulation/womens_cit... Don't think Patagonia do the DAS in a women's fit.

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Emily,

You can buy via post and still return for a full refund on unwanted goods from Needlesports, Facewest, Joe Brown, V12 Outdoor, or Cairngiorm Mountain Sports.

Needlesports stock the DAS:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Technical-Clothing/Insulation/Artific...

Cairngorm Mountain Sports stock both ME Citadel and the DAS Parka. (I was in there on Sunday and saw them both).

Cairngorm Mountain Sports
111 Grampian Road
Aviemore
Highland PH22 1RH
Tel 01479 810 903
email cairngorm@braemarmountainsports.com

Regarding the ME Citadel zips, I'm not sure to be honest.

One word of caution on the ME Citadel though: the Citadel is a lot heavier and more bulky than the DAS. ME say the Citadel is 900g but having picked up both I wouldn't necessarily believe that, personally I'd think it is a fair bit heavier.

If you want a super warm belay jacket for use in the Scottish Winter mainly which it both very compressible, not too heavy, and very warm then I think the DAS fits the bill perfectly.

If you really don't care about how heavy, or packable the jacket is - then admitedly the ME Citadel will be the warmest.

One thing is for sure, both the DAS and the Citadel are very warm, more than enough for Scottish Winter.

In reply to TobyA:

Yes, the DAS comes in one fit only.

I would imagine Patagonia do this because the fit of a belay jacket is purposely loose / square - therefore any male / female cuts are pretty superfluous in reality.

In reply to rosmat:

The PHD Zeta has also been brought to my attention. Ahhhhh.... too many choices!!

In reply to Emily_pipes: PHD has a zip on hood. i wonder if it lets in wind etc, weak point and adds wieght ?

I have just spent several weeks looking for a belay jacket, looked a the ME Citadel, OR Choas and finaly brought the DAS, as it had all the features I wanted and no more, plus it uses primaloft one, that is warmer than the eco.

In reply to Emily_pipes:
If you feel the cold badly, I don't think this will be warm enough although I can see current deals will be tempting.

Me and my ex both have Arcteryx Kappa hoodies, significantly warmer, also with Windstopper (although I know some prefer pertex for breathability) and an excellent and spacious hood (ME hoods never work so well in my experience).

There's a women's specific version and still some good deals to be had.

Sorry to add to the confusion!

In reply to fairweatherclimber:

The Arcteryx looks good as well. I have their Pro Shell Gore Tex thing and it's fantastic.

The qualities I'm looking for are warm (if you handle cold as well as your average reptile), durable, more durable, and relatively faff free.

So far my top three (after looking at lots of websites) are the Arcteryx, PHD, and Patagonia.

In reply to Emily_pipes:

The Kappa has reinforced shoulders and arms. Seriously, if you want warmth and durability it's your jacket.

Winter Sun is 80g of insulation, Kappa is 140g. I think something like the ME Citadel is properly OTT for UK use (200g?) even for chilly types.

I've read concerns on here that whilst pertex allows you to get rid of internal moisture (any belay jacket will trap when putting on over shell) better than a shell like Windblock, I've never found this a problem.

The debate continues..


I love the warmth and the superb design.

In reply to fairweatherclimber:

2 hrs standing still getting spindrift dumped over you in strong winds and, lets say, at -5 feels very much same in Scotland or Norway, believe me. Perhaps you've been in climbing in too much fair weather!

In reply to fairweatherclimber:

Kappa is not really designed as a pure belay jacket though is it.

Cuffs are too narrow to remove jacket over mitts / large gloves.

Hood has same problems as the PHD Zeta Belay Jacket.

Winter Sun is 100g. Kappa is 133 in body and 100g in arms.

In reply to TobyA:
Haha - touché!
When I've been to Rjukan I took a big down jacket. But didn't go out unless the sky was clear, obviously...
To the other respondent, I think we're mixing our PHD and Arcteryx Kappa jackets here?

In reply to Emily_pipes: have both a winter sun and das, albeit older versions. The das is very much a belay jacket and a bit big to climb in, whereas the winter sun, you can just use a one solution fits all. It's nice and breathable and you can just leave it on all day long... I rate both massively...

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Well, the plan now is to go for a Citadel if I end up buying from an online retail store, although I certainly would not turn down a DAS if one suddenly became available at a decent price.

I'm keeping my eyes open on the "for sale" section of the forum for small versions of either one of these. If anyone knows of any....

In reply to Emily_pipes: You won't be disheartened with your choice, I've just bought one second hand off here...possibly one of the best jackets I've owned

In reply to Darkskys: Think the DAS is cheap at the epicentre at the mo?

In reply to Nick Harvey:

So it is, but not in my size. :/

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Thanks to UKC, looks like I've gotten an ME Citadel. Looking forward to it!!