UKC

Got out the funicular at the top of Cairngorm Yesterday (24th), looked at the SAIS info Board, and the Avalanche report they had posted was from 19th January!
Thought it may have been an oversight!, so informed them that the report they had pinned up was 5 days old.
The response was, quote "There was still a risk of avalanche on the coronation wall...."
But why have 5 day old reports up on a SAIS notice board for everybody to see as they exit the building?
No further response , and at the end of the day , the old report was still there. Especially due to resent events, this is a poor show.
While waiting at the top, had to tell two groups that were going off piste to check the date again !

In reply to snowboarder:

yea, very poor.
No info would be better than false info.

but I'm not surprised, 1/2 arsed effort seems to be norm from these people.
Cairngorm Mountain seem to be only interested in ferrying the blue rinse mob up to their tea shop.

I don't know who updates the noticeboard at the car park, that's always been up to date when I'v seen it.
Worth bearing in mind tho, cheers for the warning.

In reply to daWalt: Years ago there were no 'notices' about snow conditions. Mountaineers and Ski Mountaineers had to work it out for themselves, mainly from past weather reports and current weather forecasts. Also, any other local information would help them make a judgement.
We are all lucky that SAIS does most of the hard work for us now, but it's still important that hill goers understand the information provided and, if the information is not available, be able to make personal judgements as to snow condition.
Also, remembering that the skill of 'safe travel' is also vital.

In reply to Ann:
Years ago there were no 'notices' about snow conditions.

yea, maybe there shouldn't be a notice board if it's just out of date info. Could do more harm than good.

In reply to daWalt: That's progress for you! All those years ago the general public (and the political class) cared little as to what Mountaineers got up to on the hills. So self reliance was the game - but I don't think we will go backwards, which is maybe a shame.

In reply to Ann:
So self reliance was the game -

Cleasrly it still is.

I know everybody should double check things like the date , but from my personal experience , I have found that especially skiers and boarders can be a little more blase' compared with climbers in regards to avalanche conditions.
A quick glance at the report posted at the resort , as they rush out the door to fresh snow , is not unusual !
So to have outdated information like this , posted at a venue where people have instant access to 1100m Scottish mountains in winter is, in my opinion, is irresponsible.
Either don't bother posting , or take down old reports , or better still , update them everyday !

In reply to snowboarder:

Cairngorm Mountain - "It's the least we could do!"

In reply to snowboarder:

That doesn't sound ideal, but in the mountains you are responsible for yourself. Check before you leave the car on your phone: http://www.sais.gov.uk/

In reply to danm: "In the mountains you are responsible for yourself", sounds about right.

In reply to Ann:

No ones arguing with that just that if Cairngorm start posting avalanche info then they should keep it up to date.

In reply to Ann: Ann, not being funny, but the OP was not really commenting or criticising SAIS, moreso the lazyness of the ski centre to update its board.
Its got a duty of care to protect its punters as much as the public have a duty to not kill themself.

In reply to drunken monkey: A ski centre's notice board is probably the last place I would look for information regarding an avalanche hazard.

In reply to Ann: Maybe you wouldn't , but plenty do , as I observed 2 groups with 3 mins checking. Why have misinformation ?
Every other ski resort I've visited round the world can manage to update daily

In reply to snowboarder: You have probably highlighted the point I'm trying to make which is, we should all have a fairly accurate idea of snow conditions before leaving for a day on the hill and not relying on a notice at the top station. A notice which (it appears) may be unclear or even unreliable - so don't be distracted by it.

In reply to Ann:

Everyone got your point. It's you that's missing the point of the OP which is that as an organisation it's wrong of cairngorm to leave out of date avalanche info up. Better not to issue that info at all.

In reply to Ann:

I think you're still missing the point of the OP which is that however and wherever you get your information, it should be reliable. If organisations take it upon themselves to provide information to people, in this case potentially their own paying customers, they should make at least some effort to ensure it is reliable. I can't believe the Cairngorm staff couldn't take 2 mins to update the notice board on a daily basis.

As to getting your information elsewhere, I often rely on the forecast being pinned up in a car park, shop window, ski notice board etc. Obviously I check before I leave home but if I'm up in Scotland for a few days with no internet access (not everyone has a smartphone) then it may be the only way to find it.

Are the weather and avalanche forecasts not displayed outside the rangers office?

Are the rangers employed by cairngorm mountain limited?

Agree it's poor to display an out of date forecast regardless.

In reply to Ann: Eh? If you were a normal punter, say going skiing for the first time. Had very litle undestanding of avalanches and hazards. A simple notice board with information might be VERY useful.

Up to date information I may add.

In reply to Craig Mc: OK, I now understand that this discussion is nothing to do with snow conditions, it's about notices on notice boards.

In reply to drunken monkey: "A normal punter, say going skiing for the first time", would I suspect not need information about avalanches.
Anyone going off piste should have a deep understanding of snow structure, which can in part be gained from books such as, 'A Chance in a Million' and be fully aware of past/current weather and snow conditions.

In reply to Ann: Elitist nonsense.

In reply to Ann: I don't get your point..

SAIS reports came about because of a need.. aren't the Gov. funded..

Therefore they are seen at a high level to be beneficial..

Personally I think they should be at any access point to the hill and in places like the cairngorm mountain I like seeing one on top of another so I scan through and look at the history..

Yeah of course you can assess yourself, but why not look, knowledge is power.

Outdated reports are pretty useless.

In reply to Ann:



How is one supposed to know about the the snow history of the hill if one has just arrived? Are you suggesting everybody should dig a trench ? Go on any avalanche awareness course and they'll tell you notices at ski resorts are an important source of information.

I found the Canadian resorts to be the best at supplying avalanche information. Both ski patrol and the lifties generally are very helpful with advice in interpreting their up to date reports and adding their invaluable local knowledge.
What are other Scottish resorts like these days , been a while since I've been anywhere other than Gorms riding . Do they have up to date reports available ?

In reply to snowboarder:

I'm told they're generally good so the ski patrol guy we met at Aonach Mor last year must have been an anomaly.

Having asked him what the back corries were like he told us that he hadn't been there but it was death on a stick and that if we managed to make it back alive we should let him know what it was like.

We went and it was absolutely fine.

In reply to drunken monkey:

So you reckon people with no knowledge of how to read the snowpack should learn to ski in avalanche terrain then?

In reply to
jonny2vests: I agree with your comment.
Drunkenmonkey; not sure what is 'elitist' about gaining knowledge, understanding and maybe staying alive.
Postmanpat; I think you would get a lot more from an avalanche awareness course than just being told look at the notices. "How is one supposed to know about the the snow history of the hill if one has just arrived?" - an interesting comment!
IainRUK; of course the SAIS reports/forecasts are useful, as I said earlier they now do much of the hard work for us, but further knowledge is still needed to be fully aware.

In reply to Ann:

Of course, but for people just turning up they are invaluable.. once you've been out for that first day you have a good idea how things will change. But if travelling up and getting out you can use the forecasts as a guide about where to go.

Whats the point of paying for them, if they aren't used as comprehensively as possible.

In reply to IainRUK: From an earlier post; “A quick glance at the report posted at the resort, as they rush out the door to fresh snow, is not unusual!”
I think it was this comment, from that earlier post, that got me thinking and wondering if some people are really aware.
To quote from an SAIS leaflet; “Remember that mountain weather is particularly difficult to predict and the likely influence of unexpected changes in weather, both on your own expectations as to snow stability, and on the SAIA published avalanche hazard outlook, should be considered.”

In reply to Ann:

And I thought you were spot on too.

drunken monkey is an accident waiting to happen

In reply to Ann:

Whatever.

Why don't you register on the site?

In reply to Craig Mc: I think this is what the quine is getting at.
At least one person in a group, heading for the Scottish hills in winter, ‘must have’ a good knowledge of snow structure and safe travel techniques [unless they are chancing to luck]; whereas the kit being talked about, and the skill to use it, is not a ‘must have’ before heading to the Scottish hills in winter.
Yes, I know all the reasons given why it might be needed, but folks have been going to the hills for decades without it and doing serious stuff. I wonder how long it will be before we see a party, walking through a snowy forest, carrying full avalanche gear.
Remember, there is a big commercial interest in all this.

In reply to Ianatyahoo: Sorry - opened the wrong topic disregard last posting

In reply to Craig Mc: Only discovered the forum and this topic while doing a search so I might register - thanks for asking!

In reply to Ann:

That's all a given... like a weather forecast.. things change. Yes I think people are aware, I just think you were unnecessarily elitist and dismissive of peoples experiences.

Look in the past we had no penicillin.. no seat belts in cars.. no guidance for babies sleeping regarding cot death.. a huge range of things and yes people survived before those times.. that's no argument for not trying to improve the situation as they all came in because of a perceived need.

In reply to Ann:
Yes, one of the many more things you would learn on the course is that the avalanche risk is largely dependent on the historical snowfall and weather history which are "invisible" to a new arrival. So, are you suggesting that one should not use avalanche notices as one useful way of gaining that knowledge?

In reply to Postmanpat: I'm not saying notices should be ignored, only that there is historical information available that people should consider long before they reach a notice board. The history is not 'invisible'.

In reply to IainRUK: I’m aware the word elitist means (considered superior) but when used in the current topic its use is maybe a bit subjective, especially as I have tried not to make personal comments about others who have posted. I posted earlier: “…not sure what is 'elitist' about gaining knowledge, understanding and maybe staying alive.”
I am also not the only person posting here that thinks ‘some people’ are less aware than they need to be.
For example, Snowboarder: “…but from my personal experience, I have found that especially skiers and boarders can be a little more blase' compared with climbers in regards to avalanche conditions.”
The key statement you made is “…trying to improve the situation…” but that does not mean disregarding tried and tested techniques and knowledge that have been used successfully up to the present.

In reply to Ann:

The advent of the Internet means there is more but if I went to ski resort at short notice.ie. not having read the reports through the season I would regard the official avalanche report as my first port of call on arrival and ask questions of reliable locals thereafter. What would you suggest?

In reply to Ann:

Everyone knows that..


Avalanches are about risks.. you get localised differences.. low risk can still mean slips so you always assess.. but the forecast gives you a great general idea from which to head out with.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Its not invisible if you know how to look.

In reply to jonny2vests: So should we get rid of the forecasts?

Are they redundant if that info is around and the forecasts are stopping people from developing sufficient skills? which is what Ann seems to be suggesting...

I think we all know the answer is no, so therefore CM should show updated avalanche reports..


Strange thread.. started with honest intentions and it turned into a dick size contest...

In reply to jonny2vests:

So do you spend time digging a snowpit every time rather than obtain information about whether and where that would be advisable?

In reply to IainRUK: Oh dear, I think I will leave you guys to discuss sizes. Goodbye.

In reply to IainRUK: I agree, It's a perfectly reasonable expectation to have up-to-date (safety) information at a place that most would assume has a vested interest in keeping people safe!

I'd rather there be no info at all than outdated, potentially dangerous information.

In reply to Postmanpat: I would suggest, "read the reports through the season".

In reply to Ann:

But if I don't know where I'm going that is not practical is it?
And the Internet info for many areas is simply not detailed enough. For many places in Europe there is only generalised regional info.

In reply to Ianatyahoo:

Ian or Ann? It's very confusing this multiple personality disorder stuff.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Exactly.. out of date is actually potentially more dangerous if people miss the date.. which most of us would do..

In reply to Postmanpat:

Pits are one way. I usually dig a pit if I'm heading into avalanche terrain. 5 min job, doesn't have to be a rutschblock. I wouldn't bother at a resort obviously. You mentioned resorts for some reason.

In reply to James Jackson: Not quite correct - jumped in on the same router to comment and make use of the Doric quine.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Because there talk of snowboarders and skiers. They normally practice out of resorts.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I would say most don't to be honest.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Oh, you mean they practice IN resorts. Well I naturally assumed we were talking about 'uncontrolled terrain' in out of bounds areas (the OP didn't say), skiers and snowboarders like to go there too where I live. If its a proper resort with avalanche control (and I trust them), then I would be in resort mode, would have almost no kit and leave it up to them. Who honestly takes avi kit to a resort?

In reply to jonny2vests:
>>

European resorts (unlike north american) dont try and "guarantee" safety off piste. Basically off piste you're on your own even if its easily accessible to the piste. Many People carry avi kit if they plan to leave the piste and avalanche notices are there to help them make the decision.

Northern america has clearer delineation of "in bounds" and "out of bounds"..

In reply to Postmanpat:

Lol, you keep confusing me, I think we're talking at cross purposes. North American resorts don't try and guarantee safety off piste either - that's basically impossible because 'off piste' just means everywhere else. And besides anything else, I live there.

I originally challenged you because you said the historical snowfall was invisible. I assumed that was in the context of off piste skiing. I don't really know what we're talking about know, because you seem to keep posting seemingly random statements. Maybe I got it the wrong way round though.

In reply to jonny2vests:
North America works it differnently. They have have a clearly delineated "ski area" which is patrolled and meant to be avalanche safe. It can include on and off piste.

Europe doesn't have that. It has pistes which are patrolled and avalanche safe, itineraries which are also "safe" but also large areas of off piste which are unpatrolled, not necessarily "avalanche safe" and accessible from the lifts. I am referring to to the latter and to all other off piste (ie. those accessed by touring).

Without digging a pit every time you nip under the piste rope the quickes guide to safety is the resort notice advice, combined of course with personal observation.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Well, I've no idea why you believe that, because like Europe, North America also has resorts (at least in the Pacific Northwest) which have large areas which are unpatrolled, and not necessarily "avalanche safe". Otherwise, why would I be banging on about avi gear and the snowpack? We call it "slackcountry" (aka cheating), because it usually involves getting the lift up and then skiing off the back. Take the Whistler Backcountry (off piste) disclaimer for instance:

"Backcountry skiing is an inherently dangerous activity that requires experience and knowledge to travel safely. Any of the routes on this site may be dangerous depending on conditions. You are responsible for your own safety in the backcounty..."


...which is why I, and many others, will regularly dig pits if the snowpack history & current conditions warrant it. I was at the back of Whistler last weekend in fact and did exactly that.

In reply to snowboarder:

Hilarious thread. UKArgumentative at its best.

Back to the original topic: CML and SAIS are not the same thing and SAIS is not contracted to provide CML with avalanche reports.

CML are only responsible for the ski area. CML snow patrol do their own avy assessment and publicise it on their website/noticeboards/announcements on the funicular. The other day, for example, they said to stay off the Coronation Wall as it was avy prone. The Ciste area was also shut for the same reason. There are also the Euro 5 point flags at the top.

The assumption is that anyone going up the funicular is going to be skiing the pistes. The SAIS report on the noticeboard at the Ptarmigan is just a courtesy notice, although I agree that of they are going to put that notice up, they should have the most up to date one.

The SAIS forecast on the noticeboard at the Rangers station at the bottom of the funicular is always up to date. This is the one that most tourers/walkers/climbers consult, as they won't be using the funicular.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Because in north america thete is a clear delineation: "ski area": resort tries to keep you safe; "back country" youre on your own .
In Europe that delineation is not tje same. Theoreticaly, off piste=youre on your own.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Haha! I have not got a scooby do what point you are trying to make and why it's relevant to the thread. Wibble.

In reply to jonny2vests:

You said you trustt resorts to keep you safe, or something along those lines."Off piste" in europe they dont take responsibity for your safety. Off piste but in bounds in NA thet do.
This is relevant to the kit you take snd decisions you make

In reply to jonny2vests and Ann....What are you havering about?

Try reading my posts properly. Avalanche conditions reports are important to all - ESPECIALLY beginners who may have no experience in avalanche hazards etc.

Oh, and Accident waiting to happen? Wind yer bloody neck in.

Any time I have been at the Cairn Gorm ski centre the only people I have ever seen standing at the SAIS reports are walkers or climbers. I am not unaware that skiiers and boarders come to the car park a lot later but I have been in the car park loads of times later on at the same time as everyone else. This is just an casual observation of course, but I would hazard a guess that your average boarder kids and the like do not go anywhere near it, or care anything about it.

I am sure it takes a certain level of experience to be dropping in off the Coire Cas headwall and if someone has that experience then I am sure they are big enough and bold enough to go on and get the reports themselves just as we walkers and climbers need to do.

In reply to Milesy: Spot on. I think the main point of this thread was that if your going to display a report, it should be relevant and up to date.

people can choose whether to read it or not.

At the end of the day, its a useful tool to help keep your day enjoyable and not a disaster. But its only a tool, not failsafe.

It is also worth noting that not everyone gets a reliable data signal up there. I was on my club meet last weekend and I think only two of us were able to get a data connection on our phones and the connection I got was stupidly slow. Took about ten minutes of refreshing to get the SAIS reports. If you are doing a single hit day then it is easy to make sure you are updated, but when you are away for a weekend and staying in a hut in the middle of nowhere it might not be so easy to keep up to date for the full weekend.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Of course it is "elitist". Basic competence requirements generally are, to the incompetent.

In reply to davidbeynon: So every Skier must undergo avalanche/winter skills training? Is that what you are saying? Even if they intend on staying on pisted slopes?

Its a novel idea. Dream on though.

In reply to drunken monkey:

I think the best principle to adopt is that if someone hasn't said something, they dont mean it.

Another pointless UKC argument.

In reply to drunken monkey:

As far as I can tell you are the only person talking about "staying on pisted slopes".

In reply to davidbeynon: Good comment!

In reply to Ann: I imagine if you had a profile explaining why you know so much about snow conditions and avalanches the people may pay abit more attention to you

In reply to craigloon:

This is just even stranger..

So why did they have a forecast at all.. all he's asked for is if you show one show an up to date one..

I for one have called in there to have a look as I've ran up from Glenmore and not called in at the ranger station nor checked the lodge when I left..

They didn't have one I could see, but I was only descending one easy angled gully and the snow cover was pretty minimal, this was just after NY's, but it would have been nice to see one.

In reply to IainRUK:


How do I know? The point is they don't have to have any SAIS notice, but as I said before, if they do, they might as well have an up to date one, so we are in agreement.

In reply to craigloon:

No they don't..

I think they should for education and info purposes.. to get people to be avalanche aware, understand how avalanche conditions change with prevailing and historic conditions and provide the forecasts for those that can use them..

But they must be up to date. I just don't understand the belittling of the OP.. UKC's uglier side.. as said it just turned into a dick sizing contest..

In reply to naffan: I'm affraid there is no 'profile' that might draw attention. It's all freely available knowledge, as you likely know, and not too hard to find and put into practice.

In reply to Ann: When I say profile I mean one on here. There are loads of people that just spout useless rubbish on UKC

In reply to jonny2vests:

If DM is who I think he is, I suspect the opposite is true.

It's been a long time since I posted here, I was only looking at the ski forum as this long ream of sh.. ! Somethings don't change.

I agree with the OP, if something is worth doing, they should do it properly and everyday, before the first cars start arriving in the car park. You would think to think, they had a few copies indoor where the ski patrols and other staff brew up and get ready each morning, they need to know it more than most, if anything it will add some credibility to them, in case a passing punter asks them. Imagine a ski patrol, not knowing the current forecast.

As for off piste / back country, yes those heading further out should be aware, but if you've watched the weather, been on the hill the day before, you have an anticipation of what will happen in the future, but it's always nice to have it backed up by another person 'expert' opinion.

Many skiers won't carry shovels or anything else for that matter, especially if they are just planning a few diversion towards the headwall etc. perhaps at place like A. Mor it's more important to carry all the kit, as if it went wrong over the back, it could be 30-60mins before the alarm was raised and help reaches you, especially mid week when it's quieter.

In the gorms some skiers might just be hitching a lift up with tows, then heading further afield, or climber planning on climbing with skis then circuiting around, there are so many variable, either way, novices or experts, they should all read the forecast, 2 mins of your life, to potentially save it. It's a bargain.

Clearly Ann is the expert and perhaps SAIS should be employing her?

In reply to naffan: I noted on an earlier post that I discovered the topic during a search. May thing about a profile.

In reply to summo:

So the accident has already happened then? Har har.

I agree with most of what your saying (although maybe some of it was written in a hurry?). And obviously I agree that forecast data should be relevant.

I'm just surprised that Ann suggesting people arm themselves with information and knowledge when heading into the avalanchable styx should be met with 'Elitist'. Especially considering recent events.

In reply to IainRUK:


Most seem to agree that up to date info = good. Whilst it's a bit heated, its pretty far from ugly Iain and nothing to do with UKC; we're all just 'people on the internet'. Are we reading the same thread?

In reply to jonny2vests:

Nope, with DM the opposite, I 'think' he has probably helped more people who have found themselves having an especially bad day in the hills, than many of the posters here have had winters days themselves.

Written in haste, not really, but smartphones and my fingers were never designed for each other!

Update :Had a message from Cairngorm Mountain asking " Where are you seeing this report? "
Obviously having trouble finding their indoor information board! So have given them directions....

This is 4 days since our original interaction.

In reply to Ann:

Please register if you want to keep posting. Any subsequent replies made unregistered will be deleted.

Thanks

Alan

In reply to jonny2vests: The maybe you need to go on an avalanche course.. a fair few other belittling comments..

It's not ugly, just on the uglier side.

It seems a pretty normal and understandable request.

I think we are all bad at missing fine details like date of a forecast, you just assume the one you are looking at is the correct one, obviously you shouldn't, but we all do.

Reply from Cairngorm Mountain "Cheers for that, will have a look into when we are able to get back up top!"
Maybe the report will now be 10 days old .....