UKC

http://gaz-softrock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-farrletter-debate.html

"I heard through the jungle drums a few weeks ago that Farrletter Crag in Strathspey had been retro-bolted, or at least, some of it had been. I went down for a look at the crag today, and it's true."

Those jungle drums being the usual "communication" method that ensures information about changes and updates in Scottish climbing is frustratingly elusive.... Obviously this has been too late for 7aMax, but presumably will feature in the forthcoming SMC guide??

Assuming the bolts stay in, that is.......

In reply to Fiend:

Ahem....

In reply to Fiend:

Still not sure where I stand on the Farrletter debate, but Gaz makes his points persuasively and his blog piece is worth reading in full.

In reply to Jamie B:

Reportedly de-bolted by persons unknown...

In reply to Fiend:
presumably will feature in the forthcoming SMC guide??

Not in the SMC guide. There's no point in including routes when someone might go and find the bolts have been removed. It really needs to be unanimous before a crag can be retrobolted, and it's not. But I live in hope.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Too late for the guide surely now Andy 😃

In reply to Fiend:

Sorry, what's the position on this now?

Has it been retrobolted? Or has it been retrobolted and those bolts have now been removed?

Cheers

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Nice to have a local sports crag. I live and a good few others live in hope too, Andy

In reply to Jamie B:

IMHO one of the best roadside crag in Scotland is near Newtonmore but 99% of experienced climbers are scared to go against the 1%. If folk want to climb suicidal routes without protection they could easily do so by not clipping the bolts!

In reply to Ron Walker:

Why should Creag Dubh be bolted though? Is it not in the same vein as the Etive Slabs?

In reply to Ron Walker:

Nonsense!!

In reply to Ron Walker:

What's all the fuss about with Creag Dubh?

It's not that bold - certainly not much bolder than other trad schist crags in the area (Dunkeld etc).

Ridiculous to suggest it should be bolted.

In reply to Wee Davie:
How did you know it was Creag Dubh, but yes it certainly was - so you might possibly agree?
As for the Etive slabs, I used to know lots of folk that regularly soloed the routes as the original pegs had gone and had opened up nut placements. Folk can still do and pad up the slabs, if they want too do it without gear. They can pretend they are doing a first ascent....!

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:

I never suggested or mentioned the crag but you are spot on!
I've seen several serous accidents on this crag and most folk locally avoid it and know it as Creag Death. With a few bolted lines on some of the committing suicidal lines it could become quite popular, so why object?

In reply to Ron Walker: Gonna be "that guy", cant you say that for lots of climbs. Unless i need to climb there to understand.

In reply to Ron Walker:



I don't understand this, do you need nut placements to solo?

In reply to Ron Walker:

I don't agree with sanitising the big crags just because modern climbers are less inclined to push it on- sight. If Creag Dubh feels bold so what- I feel that to sanitise it say a route given E2 5b down to F5 means you'll have a popular but un-inspiring crag.
So what if modern climbers don't have the balls to get on these routes as much? Does that mean they won't in the future?

Btw I'm actually quite pro bolt where appropriate.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Because making a crag popular is a shit reason for doing anything? Particularly when the routes at the crag are hardly overgrown and in need of traffic.

In reply to Colin Moody:
To solo you don't need anything but confidence and a lack of imagination! If leading the routes have changed dramatically and with peg placements they provide much better gear than on the first ascents.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Bollocks. You should be ashamed of yourself. And to think you make a living by instructing impressionable, inexperienced climbers. Possibly the most ignorant and outrageous climbing related post I've ever read on UKC.

In reply to Wee Davie:

It's a shame because a good crag isn't climbed on other than by folk going through various guiding qualifications. The anti bolting loby can often afford to spend time climbing sports routes abroad while locals wanting a good day out on their local crag are often denied it.
Forget balls and the future that's utter bullshit...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not getting at you as a teacher BUT 'outrageous' - speaks one who scrapes up a summer route using ice axes and crampons destroying the rock and vegetation and calls it winter climbing...!

In reply to Ron Walker:

Dear Ron

I assume this is a troll.

I'm from Newtonmore but thanks for your insight into the crag and your perception of its 'local' status.

The reason the crag has a (somewhat unjust) reputation is that most of the local heroes you refer to can't climb harder than HVS and it's a bit steep. Unfortunately climbing isn't just about making crags popular or opening routes up to the many. It's also about challenge for all and respecting history and ethics. Obviously, bolting on classic trad crags is incompatible with this.

Trad lines are things to aspire to and aim for, not to bring down to your level. Yes, some of them are hard and bold and will never be climbed by the vast majority of people but this is part of what makes them special. If you're too weak/scared to climb these routes, there's no obligation - you could always go to Moy or book a flight/move to Spain.

Re the serious accidents you've seen, so what? I've seen accidents at pretty much every crag I've visited regularly - do you want to bolt all of them, too?

Best

Alasdair

In reply to Ron Walker:


Really? Don't think that's true Ron. I know plenty of people who have climbed at Creag Dubh who are not in the instructor mainframe. The crag is absolutely superb as what it is now; a steep and sometimes bold trad crag. I agree that it's never mobbed and that a lot of folk are intimidated by it - so what? Those who rise to the challenge get a lot out of it, why should that change?

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:

Good points, well made. It's unfortunate the attention of the thread seems to have switched to the non-issue that is Creag Dubh when the Farrletter case is still to be resolved. So has it been de-bolted and what happens next?

In reply to Ron Walker:

Thanks for the lecture!
I think I was being sarcastic.

Your sentence still does not make any sense.

In reply to Ron Walker:


It was utterly bloody obvious to everyone.


I'm not sure what distant era your information comes from, but at the moment it is completely wrong. Creag Dubh is a perfectly normal, well used, and classic crag.

As Jamie B points out, this issue is nothing to do with Creag Dubh whatsoever, it is about FARRLETTER, which has been quietly bolted and quietly de-bolted in recent months.

In reply to Ron Walker:


'It's a shame because a good crag isn't climbed on other than by folk going through various guiding qualifications.'

I ain't a guide, I'm from Newtonmore (how local do you want?) and I love climbing at Creag Dubh as it is. So, er, WTF are you on about?


'The anti bolting loby can often afford to spend time climbing sports routes abroad while locals wanting a good day out on their local crag are often denied it.'

Complete generalisation with nothing to back it up. You can be at Moy in less than an hour from Aviemore, or the Camel - isn't that pretty local?


'Forget balls and the future that's utter bullshit...'

As everyone apart from you can clearly see, the only balls and bullshit here is that which is currently flowing from your keyboard.

In reply to Ron Walker:

If people find a particular crag too bold/dangerous then they should just top rope the stuff and not sanatise/vandalise it with bolts (bolts are only a very short step away from top roping anyway).

In reply to Ron Walker: I am not going through any sort of guiding scheme and always look forward to a trip to creag dubh as I don't have the luxury of it on my doorstep. The nature of the crag is what draws me to it.... long single pitch routes, with good positive holds, but where a good head is required on some routes.

I disagree with this notion of 'creag death' and have heard it on numerous occassions. Few of the routes I have climbed there I would say are very dangerous, but I would also not say that they were (certainly lower down) safe routes. Hopwever, that is beside the point as this is an existing traditional crag which is protectable with gear, hence bolts are not required.

I would be very disappointed if someone bolted the fuhrer or cold than hookers heart changing them from E4/5 routes to Fr6b-c routes, hence taking away the potential experience. Simply not clipping the bolts is an invalid point as what kind of person who is 20 feet from their last bit gear/ground while struggling to make a hard move, would not just clip the bolt in front of their face? It would change the naure of the route and experience completely. I aspire to have their experiences, but only when I am happy that I am climbing well enough.... this time may never come and to me having the chance of that sort of experience is far better than the hollow/empty forgettable experience of clipping a line of bolts. (Don't get me wrong, I enjoy sport climbing, but the experiences are far less intense/memorable).

As Wee Davie said, I don't believe that bolting routes to make them accessible to all/more is a positive step. Why bring the effort required to climb a route down to a level where more people can experience them?

Having recently spoken with someone who feels very strongly on the farrletter issue, I am aware of the history of the issue. Wanting a sport crag in your area to train on is not an acceptable reason in my mind for bolting an existing trad venue, regardless of whether it is a well protected (gear) crag or poorly protect (i.e. Farrletter). And I know how annoyed Stevie Johnstoene was at puting up a new E5 there (~2 years ago) and have someone effectively destroy it as a trad route. I think it shows a significant lack of respect.

Incidentally I have not climbed at farrletter, it is just another venue I have yet to visit along with many others around the country, so I can understand if people think my option is less relevant. However, this approach has the potential to spread to other locations, which I am wayry of.

Anyway, I agree with Gaz....

Andy

In reply to andyinglis:

What has Jeremy Bentham done on grit?

In reply to Ron Walker:

So why mention it then? (It's obviously irrelevant)


You mean like thousands of other climbers? Can I assume you've never made a winter ascent of a summer route? (And, by the way, I do have reservations about it myself)

You really do come across as desperate with this ridicuous attack as a means of defence.

In reply to Ron Walker:


I am utterly astounded to see this old trope regurgitated by a MIC. If this is an example of sort of thing that you teach then Talisman Mountaineering Activities will certainly not be getting any business from me in the future.

In reply to Harvey Bartholomew:

Yes, truly shocking, isn't it? I think I'll avoid his website as well.

In reply to Jamie B:

I wasn't actually thinking about the existing routes more the existing belay bolts, pegs, abseil points and the blank slabs nearbye, but that's never stopped a good argument on UKC going off the rails on a tangent and bringing out the alter ego pseudo names with an agenda!

In reply to Fiend:

So, anyone care to own-up / justify the bolting?

There has been a bit of a bolting frenzy in the region, of late. Looks like it spilled outwith its bounds..

Glad they are removed BTW, not the place for them IMHO. Danger of them creeping onto certain neighbouring crags in later years if they had stayed.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Err, actually this is what you said about Creag Dubh: "IMHO one of the best roadside crag in Scotland is near Newtonmore but 99% of experienced climbers are scared to go against the 1%. If folk want to climb suicidal routes without protection they could easily do so by not clipping the bolts!"

I'll assume you must have been a bit pished when you wrote that rubbish and you're now just attempting a face saving retreat.

In reply to Dr Toph:

I may receive an angry backlash here... but what exactly do trad climbers have against sport climbers and bolting?

I don't have the balls to climb an E7 for example...but why does that mean that I shouldn't be allowed to appreciate a brilliant line up a crag just because trad climbers 'don't like bolts'.

Someone will nodoubt say 'bolts ruin the crag'.... please someone explain exactly how they ruin a crag?

Btw I am neither pro sport or pro trad...I appreciate climbing as a whole.

In reply to craig1983:

a) You don't have a 'right' to climb anything.
b) Once it's a sport route, it isn't a trad route any more.

I don't see how that could be any more obvious.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Absolutely hilarious!
Though, to be fair, at least you have made an arse of yourself under your own name.

In reply to craig1983:


*bites*

Basically:
* part of the excitement and satisfaction of trad climbing lies in judging risk and then committing to the line if you're happy with the risk
* bolts, even if you plan not to clip them, give you an easy escape if you get into a place that you aren't happy with, and hence remove a lot of the commitment and the need for judgement in advance.

It's like the difference between playing high-stakes poker and playing high-stakes poker with the option of backing out and reclaiming your original stake if you don't like the way the game's going. Sure, you're not going to lose your money, but the excitement is gone, too.

In reply to craig1983:

Usually nothing in appropriate places.

You can. Just fix up top rope. Just don't monopolise the route if others want to lead it.


They don't ruin the crag as such. Just the experience of climbing the routes as trad routes.


As, I am sure, are most of those posting on this thread.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


I didn't say anything about 'rights'...but on that note, what gives trad climbers the 'right' to claim a crag?

And your point b)..... I asked for an explanation....so why? Why can't a trad route exist as a sport route? Albeit renamed and regraded?

In reply to Robert Durran:

So you're saying a trad climber that wants to lead a route gets priority over someone top roping the same route for the enjoyment?

In reply to craig1983:

Yes. Obviously.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Haven't you missed the point a bit here?! I'm quite surprised that you don't understand the difference between climbing a route with sparse protection and climbing a route with plenty of good protection but not using it - the two are completely different activities? I was shocked at you not understanding this given your profile - it's the sort of comment that usually comes from people that haven't led anything themselves....

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Sure I do. If I go to Ratho and give them 9 quid I've got a legal right to (try and) climb any route in the building. Fundamentally it is up to the landowner to decide if they want to have bolts on their crag, taking into account any applicable laws.

IMHO the 'moral' argument for not bolting in the UK is that there is plenty of great indoor sport climbing and outdoor sport is easily accessible in Europe so 'the greatest good for the greatest number' is served by preserving the UK trad crags.

In reply to Ron Walker:


I've climbed there (an absolutely excellent crag) and I am a blithering coward! If you consider this a suicidal crag, with no gear, then.... then.... I am speechless!

In reply to Ron Walker:

Ron Walker:
'I've seen several serous accidents on this crag and most folk locally avoid it and know it as Creag Death. With a few bolted lines on some of the committing suicidal lines it could become quite popular, so why object?'

Ron Walker:
'I wasn't actually thinking about the existing routes more the existing belay bolts, pegs, abseil points and the blank slabs nearbye, but that's never stopped a good argument on UKC going off the rails on a tangent and bringing out the alter ego pseudo names with an agenda!'


What a legend! MIC... absolutely excellent.

In reply to tlm:
which routes did you do?

In reply to craig1983:


Because it would have bolts in it. If there are bolts in it, it is impossible to not know that those bolts are there. Climbing is a head game as much as a physical activity and is often about doing stuff that feels scary but that you know is perfectly possible (that often isn't even that dangerous - it just feels it!). Having no gear, or having to place trad gear is a very different thing from knowing that bolts are available if it all gets too hard.

It's a bit like walking along a kerb, 10 centimetres off the road, and walking along a beam the same width, 15 meters in the air - 2 very different activities.

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:

Well obviously actually they don't as long as the TRers are actually using the route. If the ropes are sitting there with no one on them it's a different matter IMO.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I can't remember the names now - I just had a look at the crag in the logbook to see if I could remember, but it didn't help and I don't log my climbs. It wouldn't have been anything hard... I was surprised by just how nice the climbing was....

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:



Europe may be 'easily accessible' but its not cheap and its hardly an answer for when you wake up one morning, nice weather and you decide to go climbing.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Disagree.

If it's a crag where people lead the routes (i.e. not Southern Sandstone etc) then people top-roping should make way for people leading.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
It's arguable either way IMO, and in practice generally comes down to "don't be a dick." In any case, it shouldn't be an issue at either of the crags we're talking about here because apparently noone ever climbs trad at either of them anyway.

In reply to tlm:
King Bee per chance? That is well protected where you would want it for most people leading VS.

The other I did Was Brute which was also reasonably well protected.

I've not done harder there but certainly many of the classics do have a rep for being spaced / sparce protection wise. I've watched some pretty scary leads being undertaken there.

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:
Its a free country - at the end of the day you can't stop someone top roping and I very much doubt despite the bravado many seem to display on here, that when it comes down to it they would force TRers off climbs so they can lead it! Doing so certainly wouldn't gain you any kudos with most crag users and certainly wouldn't have an legal standing!

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:


lol, if someone shouts up at me while I'm toproping

"Oi....I want to lead this....move!"

the reply would not be allowed to be broadcast before the watershed.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I didn't say I would. I just said that a lead ascent should have priority.

Not sure what you mean about legal standing?

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:
OK put it another way, you ask some TRers to move aside so you can lead a route, they refuse (and quite rightly so if your attitude is you take priority), how do you intend to enforce your 'policy'.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I'm sure this has been done to death on here before, but in Real Life if you rocked up to a climb you'd got your eye on and find that someone'd just set up a top rope on it, you'd probably go and find something else to climb for the moment and come back later. If, when you came back later, they were still on it, you'd probably ask how long they were expecting to be on it for and if the answer was "all afternoon" then you'd probably ask if they wouldn't mind pulling their rope for a while so you could lead it, and feel that they were Being Dicks if they refused...

Anyway, this is getting even more off topic.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well obviously no one would just bowl up to the crag and demand that whoever is top-roping a route get off it immediately because they want to lead it, but if the top-ropers have been on it for a long time, for example, and you've travelled to a crag specifically to have a shot at leading that route, then don't you think it's fair enough to politely ask if you might be able to have that shot, provided they don't mind?

In reply to CurlyStevo: Anyway, has Farletter been bolted? from I remember, its wee, covered in moss, steep as feck, and not many holds.

And certainly not much pro!

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw and Ramblin Dave:
OK yeah seems fair enough. I know it can be frustrating to turn up to do a route which has insitu top ropers on it for an extended duration, more because of the length of time the route can be hogged for than the fact they are top roping IMO.

In reply to drunken monkey:
I think it was bolted and then the bolts removed.

In reply to craig1983:

It's just a question of good manners. It would be realy bad form for an individual or group to monopolise a route all afternoon if someone wanted to lead it. One ascent and then leaving it would be reasonable (although you might well still hear barely muffled snorts of derision at your lack of moral fibre).

Having said that, if I went to do Colder Than A Hookers Heart and found an in situ top roper, it might provide a very convenient excuse......

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Indeed. Ron is probably most relieved to be temporarily off the hook!

I helped bolt Farletter a few months back. Three routes were bolted using 8mm resin bolts with double lower-off placed.

These routes had very poor protection included many pegs which were later removed. The bolting of all these routes adhered to the MC of S guidelines for 'retro-bolting'. Permission from the landowner & first ascenders of the routes was gained, the routes were poorly/ inadequately protected and the majority of the local climbing community supported the bolting of the crag.

There are some classic trad lines at Farletter that should remain trad routes. Farletter should be a climber’s crag not specifically a trad or soport venue.

Since the bolts were place lots of people had been down climbing and the feedback was very positive. The bolts have now been carelessly chopped using bolt cutters leaving 20mm sharp metal spikes sticking out the crag leaving it extremely unsafe. This careless destruction of the bolts has left these routes un-climbable regardless of whether its trad, sport, top-roping or soloing! What happens next as far as re-bolting remains unclear but the mess left behind by one mans shoddy work must be cleaned up!

Many thanks,

Ross.

In reply to craig1983:

"I don't have the balls to climb an E7 for example...but why does that mean that I shouldn't be allowed to appreciate a brilliant line up a crag just because trad climbers 'don't like bolts'."

Sounds like you believe you have a right to climb the route in the style of your choosing at the expense of anybody else.


Because it's not a trad route if you put bolts in it? The argument that you can just not clip the bolts is idiotic.

As for asking why trad climbers can "claim" a crag. There are 2 answers as far as I can see:
1) They got there first (!)
2) They don't want to do anything to the crag other than climb on it. Bolting isn't readily reversible.

In reply to ross.creber:

Eh?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

This isn't the point I was making, but you're still wrong on several levels. You don't have any right at all to start bolting random lines at Ratho just because you paid your entrance fee. Nobody's trying to stop somebody climbing a route, just bolting it.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I have just as much right to climb a route as you do. Unless you're the land owner...you have no right to tell me what I can and cannot climb.


What are we back at school now? next you'll be telling me you're bigger than me, or your dad will beat up my dad.

The only acceptable explanation I've heard so far is that it takes the 'mind games' out of trad climbing because you know there's a safe bolt there to use....which I accept as a legitimate reason for not wanting bolts near trad lines.

In reply to craig1983:

Good! It's amazing how some people just don't get this!

In reply to craig1983:

The important bit that of that sentence was "In the style of your choosing", which in your suggested case, includes sticking bolts all over it.


The exclamation mark wasn't a typo...


As I said. Glad we've got that cleared up.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Have you actually climbed at Farrletter, if you had i'm sure you would concede and see it as entirely reasonable that the locals with consensus have a training venue. A few diehards oppose this, the thin end of the wedge, you have got to be kidding. Just the selfish few being meanspirited, there are crags far more suitable for trad that have been bolted in the Central Highlands and perhaps worthy of making a stand, but Farletter? total hypocracy.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

No I havn't been there, I don't know much about the crag or the debate about it's retro bolting. Therefore I have, in fact, completely refrained from commenting in this thread on the Farletter issue. I only questioned how chopped bolts can possibly make routes unclimbable as trad routes (this does not imply a view on the bolting or the retro bolting). All my other posts have been connected with Ron Walker's outrageous opinions about Creag Dubh.

There may well be a good case for retro-bolting Farletter, though I'm not really in a position to comment.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes quite right, bolts at Creag Dubh really would be sacrilege, the comment about climbing now not being possible, is due to the stumps of the bolts protruding clear of the rock, if you fell it could be quite nasty.

In reply to craig1983:


Seems like if that is the main problem there should be an easy technical fix. Just design a two part bolt system where the part in the rock provides a slot/socket which you push a connector section that takes the quickdraw into. If you want to sport climb you take the connector section with you on your QDs. If you want the full trad experience then don't take the connectors and you won't be able to clip the bolts.

In reply to craig1983:


Once you've climbed a bit more, both trad and sport, you'll understand why many people care a lot whether a crag is bolted or not.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You don't really get trad climbing, do you?

In reply to ross.creber:
I'm interested to know which are the classic trad lines that shouldn't be bolted and how they are different to the routes you did bolt? Other than Too Farr for the Bear, all the routes are pretty spicy. Didn't you just bolt the hardest ones?

Also, what does 'inadequately protected' mean? Isn't that just your opinion?

In reply to ross.creber:

Thanks for updating with factual, on-topic information about the state of bolting at the crag (this doesn't mean I agree nor disagree with the reasons on either side).

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I don't get the quasi-religious fervour that trad climbing seems to inspire in some people.

If the big problem is that the experience of trad is compromised by having the option to clip a bolt then isn't that solved by a bolt that can't be clipped with a standard quickdraw so you need to specifically decide you want to clip bolts before you leave the ground and take the appropriate hardware?

In reply to ross.creber:

>And I know how annoyed Stevie Johnstoene was at puting up a new E5 there (~2 years ago) and have someone effectively destroy it as a trad route.

>Permission from the ..... first ascenders of the routes was gained,

Well, which is it?

I love how rogue bolters whose bolts get chopped always, always try to gain the moral high ground by bleating about how the bolts weren't choped properly and now there's a nasty mess, and so forth. Never, ever, ever does it occur to them that perhaps the best response would be to go and clear up that mess themselves.

jcm

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Have you seriously been climbing for less than one year? And yet you feel it's OK to come on here and post in such a cocksure way about something you know so little about?

Really, such arrogance should be put to a better use. Have you thought about becoming an MP?

jcm

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'm not full of "quasi religious fervour", I just find one of the greatest pleasures in climbing is to walk up to a blank bit of rock (not one filled with some magical non-bolts), climbing it, and going away leaving the rock as it was. If you don't see that then a) sucks to be you and b) don't pretend to understand trad climbing

In reply to Fiend:

I am ambivalent about Farletter being bolted.

Ambivalent I say.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I looked at that, and thought that either:

1. He's very young

or

2. He's winding people up

My money is on the very young.....

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I met Stevie in the pub a few weeks ago and when I said I had bolted farletter he was hoping his line had been bolted. He said he would show me where his line went and if it got bolted he would be the first to climb it.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

The point the suggestion of 'magic bolts' that trad climbers couldn't clip was trying to illuminate is that they would react angrily to bolts even if they did't affect the 'head game' in any way. Because fundamentally it's not about the head game or the ethics of the first ascender or anything to do with the mechanics of climbing, the fervour is coming from an ecological/emotional/quasi-religious belief in keeping the rock pristine.

I'm actually sympathetic to the ecological argument when applied to mountains or sea cliffs or other pristine locations.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yes, ironic isn't it when they "started" it. A stump is both less unsightly than a complete bolt and far less compromising of the trad experience.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I believe this sort of thing has been tried (in Spain, I think). It was called e-fix or something. I don't think it caught on.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You may, I hate to admit, actually have a point here; it is a defensible argument quite tricky to knock down without appealing to emotion, which, however, I believe is a perfectly valid thing to do. Climbing is, after all, about much more than the mechanics of climbing. It may sound patronising, but you probably have to have been climbing a while to fully appreciate this.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Well done. You've shown that in a world where magic bolts exist, anti-bolting debates would be based on ecological/environmental grounds, which might be more subjective.

Unless you've got some of these magic bolts up your sleeve then I don't see that you've illustrated anything about the actual world we live in.

Got any more hypothetical examples to illustrate points about other alternate realities?

In reply to everyone driving this thread off topic:

Any chance we can focus on the specific issue of Farletter?

Ross has come forward and explained his action and that he has gained permission from the landowner and first ascentionists. This isn't rogue bolting under the cover of dark, in the hope that no-one will mind.

Now because a person doesn't agree with the bolting, does this give them the right to go and chop all the bolts? Did they seek permission or confirmation from the community? No.

This isn't just another Trad vs Sport debate, this is about trying to do things properly and still being undermined by a few self-righteous individuals.

But who knows, I've never even been to Farletter.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

There's nothing magic about them, Robert said people already tried something similar in Spain. Technically it would be trivial to make a bolt hanger which didn't fit a normal crab but could be hooked by a matching crab that sport climbers could buy. There's nothing unusual in engineering terms about making a mechanical connector which only mates with a matching one.

The illuminating thing is the emotional reaction to the suggestion of bolts that couldn't be clipped by trad climbers. That suggests that fancy bolts wouldn't solve anything because the reaction is against anything artificial being put in the rock.

The 'magic bolt' thought experiment is useful because if the issue is ecological/emotional/religious in nature rather than practical it can't be dealt with by compromises and technical fixes. There's no point in arguing about the relative numbers of trad and sport climbers and that it would be fair for the sport climbers to get more of the available rock. There's no point in suggesting technical fixes that would allow co-existence on the same crag. The way to keep the peace is to have areas reserved for trad where bolting doesn't happen.

In reply to Hamfunk: Are there any pics of this crag? Just interested as an outsider.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: The majority of crags in britain are trad. The accepted rule is that most should stay trad unless certain criteria is met.
Creag dubh is not a suitable sport venue. It would ruin excellent trad routes by making them easy, uninsipring sport routes.

You clearly do not have enough outdoor climbing experiance to understand what and where makes suitable venues for both trad and sport climbing.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
The way to keep the peace is to have areas reserved for trad where bolting doesn't happen.

Which is precisely what, in principle, does happen, and so why people get upset when the rules are bent. Interestingly, I get the impression that things seem to have settled down and work better in England than in Scotland where it sems harder to define appropriate areas (due to lack of steep limestone probably).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Problem with that is that the majority of British crags are reserved by trad climbers....leaving sport climbers having to travel long distances to do a bit of climbing.

Tomorrow for example, I'm doing a 130 mile round trip just to get a bit of sport climbing in.... hardly seems fair since there are countless trad crags around me.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'd imagine what Robert is referring to (although I can't see which post you mean) are the nut-bolts that the Edwardses (yes, those (in)famous ones) invented and tried out in Spain. Basically they were a metal slot designed to take a number 2 (I think) nut. So kind of the opposite of what you're imagining.

The reason why your magic bolts are magic is that they have to be unclippable with trad gear, yet present no problems for sport climbers to clip (and people who do both would then have to buy two sets of quickdraws) and they don't get in the way of the climber at all (so no protruding from the rock, or being placed anywhere that a climber might want to place either a hand or a foot), or else they'd be changing the nature of the climbing on the route, which is what you're trying to avoid (hypothetically). To me that sounds pretty far fetched.

If you could knock a few of those up then feel free to prove me wrong, but otherwise I have no idea what you think you're contributing to this debate with your thought experiments.

In reply to craig1983:

The trouble in Scotland is that the vast majority of crags, due to the nature of the rock, make far better trad venues than sport. Bolting most crags would replace quality with mediocrity. You need to move to Spain!

In reply to craig1983:


There you go again. Why does it have to be fair? Why do you have an entitlement to go sport climbing wherever you like at the expense of other people?

By the same argument it's desperately unfair that people who live in Essex have to drive hundreds of miles to reach any rock at all, yet I don't see anybody advocating that we dig up Giggleswick and move it to Colchester...

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd love to move to Spain! Unfortunately my life lies in sunny Scotland

In reply to victim of mathematics:

We live in a world of equality.

Anyway, there's no point in trying to discuss or reason with you... I'm trying to see things from both sides of the fence, but you're just sticking to your uncompromising attitude....fine.

In reply to craig1983: Why don't you just go trad climbing instead? The majority of sport climbing in Scotland is of very poor quality. Our rock types and crags just don't lend themselves to good sport routes.

Our trad climbing on the otherhand is superb the rock and crags that would be crap sport venues make excelent trad venues. Why would you want to make something that is very good mediocre?

In reply to craig1983:

I haven't expressed any opinion about the bolting of Farletter (or anywhere else). I've just taken issue with people's specious arguments in favour of bolting. If I saw some specious arguments against bolting I might well take issue with those too.

PS World of equality - arf.

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

I'll be trad climbing on Sunday But as I'm a bit of a sh!tebag leading on self-placed gear, I tend to do low grade stuff...so its still nice to get out, push myself physically and do some hard sport climbing as well.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

That does seem a bit unfair if, as Ross says, he had the permission of all interested parties including, crucially, the landowner.

It seems to me that if you place bolts without the permission of the landowner that could be seen as criminal damage. However, if the bolts are there with the landowners permission surely it's the damaging or removal of them that is the wrong side of the law, not to mention being well short of the moral high ground.

In reply to victim of mathematics: I live in the Dales and would be perfectly happy if you want to dig up Giggleswick and relocate it to Colchester, I'd chuck in Foredale as well for free! Actually I suspect a large amount of Dales limestone already lives in Colchester.

In reply to craig1983:

Why doesn't it seem fair? You have chosen to climb on bolts tomorrow, rather than climb trad, and therefore the whole business is in your own hands. If you chose to go skiing tomorrow, you would have even further to travel! "Reserved" is a bit of a strong word, isn't it? The crags are just there, as they were. No one has reserved them or stopped you from climbing on them. You are just being asked not to alter them. Just as you can't go out and dig up the road and lay rail tracks along it.

In reply to tlm:

The word 'reserved' was simply used in response to something Robert Durran said.

In reply to tlm:

I wish someone would tell that to Edinburgh District Council

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Some constructive discussion on the matter at hand! Why does it always descend into a Trad vs. Sport debate? (And before anyone even hits reply - i don't want an answer to this question.)

In reply to Hamfunk:

Great idea, but bear in mind this is UKC.

Agreed.


Again, agreed. (And I'm commenting as someone who enjoys both sport and trad.) It seems like Ross undertook this course of action very appropriately and with due consideration and consultation. It's the phantom chopper who, to my mind, has acted inappropriately.

Trad & sport > cats & dogs. Unfortunately, they'll never get on.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I wasn't consulted and I am an interested party.

When you've been cragging from the Central Belt for many years, any new venue within day tripping distance is of great interest. This threasd has meant that Farletter is now on my radar; it sounds not a bad venue and I hope to visit before too long (hopefully before it gets retro-retro-bolted......)

In reply to craig1983:

Really?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've climbed at Farrletter, so I might as well express an opinion. From what I've seen the routes there are of reasonable quality and tend to be of the bold rather than the death variety.

On a personal, pragmatic level, there are some lines at Farrletter that I still want to climb which would lose their interest for me if bolted. If only the E5s were bolted it is highly unlikely that this would ever affect me directly, but if the bolts creep onto the E4s it would be different, and bolts do have a habit of creeping. So, for purely selfish reasons I side against the bolting. However, I'm not a local and, bolts or no bolts, I won't visit Farrletter often, so I don't expect this personal view to carry much weight.

With regard to the general principle I am strongly against this sort of convenience bolting, but I think Dave Garnett is right: in this case it is does seem to be the duty of the bolt-chopper to make sure the job is finished cleanly.

In reply to Hamfunk:

It hasn't descended into a Trad v sport debate; it's ben a Trad v Sport debate from the very first post!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Dear tom, if you can come up with a prototype which matches victim of mathematics design brief, you will be feted everywhere. Please try!

In reply to craig1983:

The point trying to be made to you, Craig, is that just because you want to go sport climbing, that does not mean that you have a 'right' to have a sport crag near you. This is not a human right, or a climbers right. This is not a case of equality.

Our trad climbing is famous, classic and of historical importance. Trad climbers are not being selfish to be anti bolting on most of our crags, but are protecting the very nature of British climbing from people like you who neither understand it nor respect it.

I am not anti bolting. I am all for it where it is appropriate. And I hope for more diversity where appropriate.

Although I am not familiar with Farrletter, it sounds like there was a strong case for bolting it with the backing of the first ascensionist(s) and much of the local community. Clearly not everyone though. I know that not everyone will always agree, but was a significant local meeting and vote advertised and held? If it had been and the crag voted to be bolted then it's less likely people would have chopped the bolts. If no meeting was held to discuss the future of Farrletter then it's hardly surprising what has happened and frankly both sides would be to blame for making a mess of the crag.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

You forgot my favorite bit... Stevie who was said to be very upset when his E5 was bolted but when asked turned out to be the exact opposite.

If sports climbers are not going to ignore the incredibly strict rules around bolting in the UK then trad climbers also have to take the rules seriously. Some bolts placed following careful rules will still get chopped but that to me is a sign some people are plain pig ignorant (nothing new there) and happy to risk stiring up greater problems with bolting to make their silly point.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, I have no opinion at all about these bolts per se. But it does seem as the bolter asked all the right people and obtained a consensus as well as permission.

When responsibly placed bolts like this are trashed it just suggests to some people that they might as well just put them where they like to get a line climbed, knowing that they will be removed anyway.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, obviously as a fellow climber, not to mention a fellow human being, your opinion is of some value but if you've never been to the crag and it wasn't even on your radar, then I'm not sure you qualify as an interested party.

Anyway, I've never even heard of the place but on what I've heard I'm mildly in favour of the bolting so my vote cancels out yours.

In reply to craig1983:

I feel your pain man. Tomorrow evening Mrs. Ent is making me do a 50 mile round trip just to go to an Italian restaurant. Something I'm not very happy about because there's at least 4 Indian restaurants within walking distance.
Soooooo unfair.

E

In reply to Fiend:

Yes, that's EXACTLY the same.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

And now I probably never will go if it gets re-retro-bolted. I'll have been denied the pleasure of some good sounding routes. I think my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. I don't really buy this idea of locals automatically claiming rights over these things.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Neither do I, not automatically. But then I don't believe in people who live miles away and who may never even visit having a veto over what local people want to do, whether that's bolting a crag or building a nuclear waste repository.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The good sounding routes are not good. The key to me is that without the fixed pegs, most of which have now rusted away, only one route is worth trad climbing. All the others would involve serious injury if you fell off at the wrong place. As a result, possibly no-one on-sights there except for the one route. As a result some routes have overgrown and are no longer climbable. So it meets all the sport climbing guidelines, the biggest problem being that any debate brings up bolting Creag Dubh (usually in jest), which is totally different except that it's also made of schist, and is one of Scotland's best trad crags.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Fair enough.


It really shouldn't be a problem, but one person's views on this thread does make you wonder!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Andy, this claim of yours is clearly an exaggeration: I've on-sighted three routes there, less than five years ago.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Andy, this just isn't true. I've said this on UKC threads before but it always seems to be conveniently glossed over - I've onsighted or safely failed to onsight 6 routes at Farrletter, and headpointed another that a mate happily climbed ground-up. And neither of us have ever been asked how we feel about Farrletter being bolted.

As an aside, loads of routes would involve serious injury if you fell off at the wrong place. What's wrong with that?

It seems to me, and I hope I'm wrong, that the 'locals', or at least an influential community of Strathspey-based instructors, don't feel happy trying to onsight the routes (or did years ago when they were bolder) and therefore want to bolt it to make a convenient venue for them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Farrletter is a particularly good crag, and it's loss won't affect me much, but it really annoys me when the "too dangerous" argument gets trotted out when what people actually mean is "too dangerous for me".

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Including:

"There should be no retrospective bolting of established climbs for protection or belays"

"3. Where the rock is steep and provides climbs of a high order of difficulty at the forefront of developments of the day"

"4. Where there is no anti-bolt ethic"

???

I'm not sure how useful the SMC sport climbing guidelines are considering they are all routinely ignored for the majority of recent natural rock sport crags.

In reply to Fiend:

There's a degree of double standards in operation here. In the past, some more high-profile climbers retro-bolted crags which are/were trad crags. These were not immediately debolted. FAs might have been consulted prior to this happening, in other cases they weren't. I'm not talking about super high E-grade routes incidentally, just mid range. You don't need to look too far from the Central Belt to know the crags I'm talking about.

My question here is: why is it ok for some people to retro-bolt, whilst for others it isn't?

(apologies for going off the Farrletter topic, but it is relevant.)

In reply to Fraser:

Sorry, that last post was in response to people in general, not your post Matt.

In reply to Fraser:

Indeed. Bennie Beg was a fantastic trad crag with brilliant and varied lines before it was inexcusably grid bolted into sport anonymity.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Classic!

In reply to gaz.marshall:

Good post, looks like you're being ignored again. Hey ho!

E

In reply to Fiend:



M C of S guidelines not SMC.

SMC are the ones that get abuse on here for the CIC hut.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Nice one, sadly it's still too intimidating a place for me though!

PS I realise it was a mistake to try and make a serious point about the hypocrisy on display.

In reply to Fraser:

No your point is a valid one - I'm just not sure which crags you are referring to (since I hardly ever go sport climbing in the UK and I can't think what trad crags I have lost, I presume they were pretty poor ones!)

In reply to Robert Durran: I'd be keen to know too, as I can't think of any good sport venues which would have made better trad venues (or were previously proper trad venues) either.

In reply to all:

Here's a theoretical question.

If Farletter had been discovered a month ago and bolted then, before any of the routes had been climbed on trad gear, would you feel any differently about it?

In reply to victim of mathematics:


Seems like someone else already has 'knocked up' low visibility bolts that can't be clipped with a standard quickdraw:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=539795

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: I guess you don't know what carrot bolts are then?

In reply to TobyA:

I await enlightenment.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: http://www.sterling-adventures.co.uk/blog/2008/11/28/carrot-bolts/

I got given a bunch of hangers by my mate when I went to climb at Arapiles, fortunately never needed them on the routes I did. I've not heard anyone who was a massive fan of them!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Did you bother reading the rest of that thread?

In reply to all:

These bolting debates make me tired. Can't we decide these things at BMC area meetings?

In reply to bpmclimb:

LOL not this one, its in Scotland!

In reply to TobyA:

I remember reading about carrot bolting principles and they do seem distinctly mechanically unsound to me.

I really rather like them and still have a bunch of hangers somewhere.

In reply to Fiend: One of the reasons it may have stayed under the radar was because the bolters were asked to remove the bolts and leave the crag in a clean state, as the required agreement of local climbers had not been reached. They were given time to do this, as they said they didn't know how to remove bolts without leaving a mess! So I find it strange that Ross is now critical of the mess left, as he obviously hasn't found out how to do it neatly himself. Maybe he and partner can go and tidy up.
I'm of the opinion that it is traditional crag with a selection of good and bad routes, which are both bold and well protected, so plenty to climb or avoid if you don't have what it takes. The E4 is certainly not the only good route on the crag, as 'Yet so Farr' is an excellent E3,6a, and 'The Farrter' is a brilliant E5,6a. We don't have many routes of these grades and qaulity in the area, so it is a shame to lose them. Mind you, there are even fewer climbers in the area who can climb these lowly grades.

There are many other crags in the Badenoch area that have well protected routes in the E grades that don't see any traffic either, and are getting overgrown, so it is not just because the routes are bold that they aren't seeing ascents. Just very few commited climbers.

In reply to John Lyall:


Not sure that's right given that Creag Dubh is absolutely full of those grades, also Duntelchaig, Brin, Huntly's Cave and Creag Ghlas have a few and Dunkeld, Glen Nevis, and the Cairngorms aren't too far away.

In reply to Ron Walker: Creag Dubh got the name 'Creag Death' because of the aroma of death that surrounded the crag, not because of the bold climbing, but because there were always dead sheep and goats rotting on the sunny slopes beneath the crag. Amazing how misinformation can put off such hardy climbers!

In reply to victim of mathematics:

The thread was a lot shorter at the time I posted a link to it.

In reply to AlH:

Sorry MCofS. Or whatever can make a reasonable claim to represent a consensus. Rather than ill-informed guesswork and endless "oh yes it is/oh no it isn't"

In reply to John Lyall:

John, if the bolters were asked to remove the bolts and leave the crag in a clean state, then surely this should also apply to the person who took the (unilateral?) decision to remove the bolts on their behalf?

Jim

In reply to Fiend:

OK, so a few folk have had a few good days climbing bold trad routes. But are they rushing back? No, because it's not a good trad crag, and lack of traffic is making it mucky. As a sport crag it would be good, with grades available to many. Why should a few folk prevent hundreds from having a good day out? It's not as if they regularly go to the crag. The presence of nearly Creag Dubh is not relevant, as Creag Dubh is a great trad crag and talk of bolting it is only a wind-up. The key thing is that the most folk have the most enjoyment, but without spoiling the tradition of trad climbing, and Farletter meets both.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

A number of people don't want the crag bolted.

If you want to climb there and keep the rock clean why don't you just add anchors. Then people can top rope the routes and others can boldly lead them.

In reply to Cog:

The slight difference is top-roping is fcking pointless bullshit, though

In reply to ross.creber who said- "I met Stevie in the pub a few weeks ago and when I said I had bolted farletter he was hoping his line had been bolted. He said he would show me where his line went and if it got bolted he would be the first to climb it."! How many beers had you had? Is this imaginary like the fact you had permission and was it on this very evening you were asked to remove the bolts and forgot because you were pissed?
Craig1983 says- "I'll be trad climbing on Sunday But as I'm a bit of a shitebag leading on self-placed gear, I tend to do low grade stuff...so its still nice to get out, push myself physically and do some hard sport climbing as well." Was he out with you that night?

In reply to Samuel:

What has my comment got to do with anything? If you're going to post pointless crap like that instead of genuinely contributing to the discussion/debate, then just don't bother.

In reply to Fiend:

Leading 15m high well bolted routes is not really any significantly different to top roping them though is it. Unless you find the act of clipping a rope into maybe 3 or 4 quickdraws such a major challenge as to fundamentally alert the whole route for you....

If anything is "pointless B...." in British climbing then it's placing a totally artificial value on "leading" above all other styles, even when it's not really any harder / better in some cases.

In reply to craig1983: Well, your comments are so ridiculous that I figured you were either drunk or taking the piss. Generally you'll find the way to excel at any sport or game is to raise your game to match the challenge, not adjust the rules or shrink the playing field to suit. If you're too scared to climb a chosen trad route then leave it alone..

In reply to Samuel:

Doesn't even warrant a reply....crawl back into your hole dude...

In reply to craig1983: Here are some of your more choice comments , dude.

"I don't have the balls to climb an E7 for example...but why does that mean that I shouldn't be allowed to appreciate a brilliant line up a crag just because trad climbers 'don't like bolts"- Man up!

"And your point b)..... I asked for an explanation....so why? Why can't a trad route exist as a sport route? Albeit renamed and regraded?"- Em, because once it's bolted it's a sport route...

"Problem with that is that the majority of British crags are reserved by trad climbers....leaving sport climbers having to travel long distances to do a bit of climbing.
Tomorrow for example, I'm doing a 130 mile round trip just to get a bit of sport climbing in.... hardly seems fair since there are countless trad crags around me."- Shame. Move then.

Anyways, I'll crawl back into my hole. I'll feel safe there as you'll probably have bolted it.

In reply to Samuel:

Man I wish there was a block button...

In reply to craig1983: Well, there's not. Sometimes life's cruel. You can't block people from commenting on a forum, you can't bolt an E7 just so you can climb it and you can't start bolting the harder routes on your local crags to save yourself a drive. Which kinda relates to the original topic, life's a bitch...

In reply to Samuel: Well,he'll probably be bolting blocks/blocs shortly.

In reply to Fiend: Just found out about this. What a pointless, disappointing series of events.
Ross, i understand you're pretty new to the area but if you had really consulted the whole climbing community in the Strath you would have understood how predictable the outcome was, all arguments for and against aside. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't the ringleader (a certain senor perhaps?).
The best outcome would be to tidy up the mess thats been left so that the crag is back as it was (less the pegs). If you want info on how to effectively "cover-up" chopped bolt stubs feel free to contact me. It's pretty simple and something you should know about before you start drilling at crags really.
Al

In reply to alan_davies:

....assuming it was and is the wrong decision to bolt Farrletter....

In reply to Fiend:

I'm with Hitler.

In reply to Robert Durran:

During the early Eighties Craig Dhu was my local 'road side' crag. Farrletter was under development at that time. Bolts should not be placed on either crag.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Good quote, might come back to haunt you tho



Grippet:

Convincing argument there...

In reply to all Tradvangelists:

I'm fairly new to climbing and for reasons of safety, cost and general hassle would prefer to do sport climbing than trad

Given that people can trad climb a bolted route if they like, I really don't see a big problem with bolting and other countries seem to manage just fine. Or to put it another way, I think peoples desire to climb more safely generally trumps your desire to not have to climb past small metal bolts in the rock.(I, personally, would though make an exception for truly remote places)

As far as I can see pretty much all the arguments against bolting refer vaguely to respecting history and ethics. Which is pretty much just saying we don't like it because we like the way we like to do it.

I think there's also a bit of wanting to keep things exclusive. Fair enough if that's what you want but just say it and don't be surprised if people think that's a bit selfish.

If any one could give a coherent argument for not bolting that'd be much appreciated.

Cheers, Donnie

In reply to Robert Durran:

I remember that movie. I don't think it worked out for him.

In reply to Donnie:
You cannot trad climb where there are bolts. Part of the experience of trad climbing is knowing when to commit above your gear. If you set off up a trad route that was bolted there is a saftey net there that if need be you would use. Bolts would ruin the trad experience.

Crags in Britain lend themselves towards trad climbing. Good trad routes are good not just for the quality of the climbing but due to the over all experiance involved including placing gear and playing the mind games that trad involves.

Many good trad routes would be mediocre sport routes as the challange has been reduced. Why do you lead sport routes rather than top rope them? The answer is you get a more rewarding feeling from the extra challenge.

Its nothing to do with exclusivity. If I want to climb hard bold trad routes I have to make the effort to be good enough to do it. If I put the effort in and do it, I have raised my game to the challenge. Not reduced the challenge to my level.

By your argument I could build a road and drive to the top of a mountain as it would be safer and less exclusive than walking up a path.

In reply to Dangerous Dave:


Unless you're neil the weak and/or believe his hilarious troll about "Leading 15m high well bolted routes is not really any significantly different to top roping them though is it.", LOL!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

With some of the astonishingly ignorant and/or selfish pro-bolting views expressed in this thread, it might not work out too well for me as well as for Hitler.

In reply to blah blah:

Just to continue the fatuous diatribe, it really amazes me how a small north facing schist outcrop in the frozen north can be of such a contentious issue for mainstream climbers, this is not a bolt vs trad issue, the crag has been top roped on for training for years, just check out the bundles of rotting slings on the trees above the crag, the routes other than a few are neglected, the insitu pegs rotten, the harder routes were on the whole, led after inspection, it is a myth that these routes are frequently onsighted, it fits all the criteria for bolting, give the locals an amenable training venue, for those looking for more of a cerebral experience, Creag dubh is more than willing.

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

Thanks for the response. I didn't think of the safety net element.

GIven that a route can either be sport or trad, but not both it really comes down to whether most people would prefer to use the route for trad or for sport. It seems to me things are weighted a bit unfairly in favour of trad just now.

I don't really accept your point about making an effort in trad. You can apply effort to trad or sport routes - you'd climb a harder sport route for the same effort. It's really just a tradeoff between climing bold and climbing hard.

And the point about roads to the top of mountains is a complete strawman. My argument (now retracted in light of your point about safety nets) was that the increase in safety outweighs aesthetic costs of bolting. Obviously the analagous safety/aesthetics trade off between roads and paths up mountains isn't the same.

In reply to Donnie:

I think it's a rather good analogy on both counts.

In reply to Donnie: If you want to understand trad I suggest you go trad climbing. It isn't all about being bold and it does not have to be dangerous. Trad climbing can be just as safe if not safer than sport climbing. Like I have said most trad routes I have done would be mediocre sport routes.
If you really want to go sport climbing go to Europe. What we have here in the uk is unique and we should keep it that way.

Just so people know I have no interest in if Farletter is bolted or not as I will not be going there but it does sound like it is more suited to sport climbing than trad.

In reply to Dangerous Dave:


Europe is a big place Dave with plenty of trad climbing. British climbers should realise that they are far from unique and this exact same debate is being played out in plenty of other countries too.

Donnie, I've done various sport climbs that were hard for me and were considerably more scary to do than some trad climbs of a similar grade. Doing a whatever-grade-that-is-hard-for-you move with a bolt at your feet or even some metres lower is a lot more trouser filling than doing a similar move where you've got a red camalot buried and clipped at head height, and various solid nuts by your waist and feet. The idea that sport = safe, and trad = dangerous is way too simplistic. Try and do more of both and you'll soon see what we mean.

In reply to TobyA:

Totally agree, and this fact is often ignored by people who have the bizarre idea that normal trad climbing is dangerous. I used to cite the example of the main pitches of Vector, and L'Arabe Dement in Verdon, which I did in the same year and both were quite hard for me at the time. Vector basically has bobmproof gear above your head whenever you feel like it; L'Arabe has half a dozen bolts in thirty metres. Both perfectly safe; I can tell you which one I found more scary.

The counter-argument to which, of course, is that trad routes only have bombproof gear above your head if you have the gear and experience of how to place it so that it's bombproof. But it's not that hard to learn.

In reply to TobyA:

But scary is not necessarily the same as dangerous. I get terrified climbing indoors with bolts by my knees even though I know it is very safe, yet I might do a run out trad route where a snapping hold would mean certain death without feeling scared.

In reply to Dangerous Dave:


You're so wrong:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63953

In reply to Robert Durran:

Really?

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

I was over simplifying things there to make a point. I've been trad climbing...

The point remains that bolting a route spoils things for people that want to climb that route trad and and not being allowed to bolt a route spoils things for people that want to climb that route sport.

My impression is that those that predominantly prefer trad think that what they like's somehow more deserving because of 'history' and 'ethics'.

I think, as a rule, we should do what most people would prefer and that a lot of the time that doesn't seem to happen because tradvangelists are a bit unreasonable.

In reply to Donnie:


Not really. After all, most people in the UK might prefer to have a cable car there. Going with what the majority of people want isn't always the best path in life. Sometimes it is worth having and keeping things because they are so GOOD!

In reply to TobyA:

I maybe over simplified things... but as a generalisation I think saying that you can climb harder on sport than trad isn't far off. And personally I find being above a bolt less scary than pretty much anything on wires.

In reply to Donnie:

Donnie quit the pontificating, Farletter is a shit trad venue, end of.

In reply to Fraser: the bolts would stillbe there if he was about to fall and he was right next to one, I suspect he'd use one rather than die.

In reply to tlm:

Most people in the UK wouldn't prefer cable cars to be built up hills...
but it's a good point that the opinion of people that don't really care shouldn't count as much as those that do.

But that's not the case with sport and trad. There are dedicated climbers that want to bolt things. So all you're really saying is that we should keep it trad because you think it's so GOOD. Other people might say make it sport because they think it's so good.....

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

good point well put

In reply to Donnie:

What was your experience like?

Did it give you any insights?

In reply to Donnie:

I like the fact that you are questioning the status quo - I think that is a good thing to do.

I think the reason that trad climbers might often seem to be very polarised in their views is fear. There is something that they love, deeply, that is limited and which WILL eventually not exist any more. It will die a death.

I think they just want to slow down the rate at which that death will happen.

Once a route has been bolted, it can never be returned to the state that it was in originally - that route has gone forever. It isn't possible to simply unbolt a route and make it into a trad route.

Also - I guess I got into climbing to have a little bit of wildness and adventure in my life (even if half the time it is just me pretending to myself that I am being adventurous and brave). It feels ever so sad that people in the future might not have that option - and even sadder that something that I have loved so much is not even wanted.

It's a bit like passing your much loved teddy bear on to a nephew, only to see them trade it in for an ipod.

In reply to Donnie:

Well fair enough, although be careful - I've hurt myself and seen others do the same taking slamming falls onto bolts, and perhaps you need to place more wires to be more confident about them, but that's by the by.

For me the thing about trad climbing is you don't have to drill a series of holes in the cliff and leave bits of metal there forever. I like sport climbing and know bolts aren't the end of the world, but you can't get away from the fundamental fact that by drilling you change the environment. It's on a smaller scale but the same principle that I enjoy piste skiing despite the drag lifts and trees cut down to make runs, but I prefer ski touring in the mountains where there are no human installations more.

In reply to Donnie:


*Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! This non-argument is shite and yet it gets trotted out every single time, remarkably by people who in other senses seem articulate and rational. It's driving me insane.

In reply to Jamie B:

Absolutely drives me nuts too.

E

In reply to Fraser:

Not by any means the same as not having the option of clipping into a bolt and bailing out.

In reply to Robert Durran:

And without taking anything away from Arnaud (I actually think that vid is ace) How many times did he headpoint/climb it as a sport route first?

E

In reply to Enty:


And me. Total utter ignorant tedious bollocks.

The Dutch seem to get by just fine with absolutely no climbing at all, so lets just dynamite all the crags and be done with it.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That wasn't the point I was responding to. Re-read my post.

In reply to Donnie:

Also, if you want to climb a route without doing a trad lead, then bolting isn't the only option.

Why not second it, or....

top rope it?

And I would like to add a reminder that most trad crags aren't steep or hard enough to make sports routes on - you need something that you can't onsight, that is going to take a bit of working to make a good sports route. Bolted climbing and sports climbing are not one and the same thing...

In reply to Robert Durran:

They've got drugs and pancakes to entertain them instead...

In reply to tlm:

Most wouldn't make good sports crags, but not necesarily for those reasons.


For whom? A beginner, me or Adam Ondra? What's wrong with onsighting anyway?


Eh? What? If the bolts are too "sportingly" spaced to be a sports climb?

In reply to Fraser:

I have re-read it and I stand by my post.

In reply to Robert Durran:

As I stand by mine

In reply to Fraser:

Dangerous Dave omitted the word properly from his post.

E

In reply to tlm:


Are you bonkers?? I've worked 3 sport routes in my entire life, but done many hundreds of good sport routes onsight (including 6 last weekend in the Highlands)....

In reply to Fiend:


Maybe a little bit, why?


Then were they sports climbs? or just bolted climbs? The whole ethos behind sports climbing is to allow people to move beyond onsighting. Or has that been dumbed down too, these days?

In reply to tlm:
The whole ethos behind sports climbing is to allow people to move beyond onsighting.

Really? First I've heard of it!

In reply to Oceanrower:


So what was the point of sports climbing if it wasn't to allow people to concentrate on the physical moves and remove a chunk of the head game from the equation?

In reply to tlm:

You are imposing a distinction completely unnecessarily and judgementally.


"Beyond": a very loaded word.


So onsighting is now a dumbed down version of working a route is it? Odd way round I think! I love sports climbing but have only ever worked two routes in my life. For me, sports climbing is primarily about being able to give the onsight attempt everything without worrying about getting hurt.

In reply to tlm: you, Sir, are talking what I believe is called "bollocks"

In reply to Oceanrower:

I think it is a "Madam", but yes, definitely bollocks.

In reply to AlanLittle:

>L'Arabe has half a dozen bolts in thirty metres.

Blimey. Those were the days. I think you'll find that these days the word you're looking for is 'had'.

But your general point is right, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

As is tlm's, of course. Onsighting sports routes is just convenience climbing.

I'mn surprised at you not knowing that, Fiend.

jcm

In reply to Wee Davie:

Crazy! I can't believe that anyone would seriously suggest bolting Creag Dubh. Yes, it can be a little bold given spaced out gear, but the holds tend to be positive and reassuring for the grades and lead you onwards and upwards! I thought the only committing aspects were avoiding suicidal mountain goats.....

In reply to Jamie B:

Yeah, I've retracted that bit... see above somewhere

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What a meaningless, stupid comment.

In reply to Robert Durran:

What a meaningless, stupid comment.

In reply to Fiend:

Why are people talking about Creag Dubh on this thread? Has anyone suggested bolting Creag Dubh? Or is it the tired old 'thin edge of the wedge' argument again?

In reply to DaveHK:

Ron Walker suggested it way up the thread. He got shouted down, big time.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think someone must have hacked into his account, can't believe Ron would talk such garbage. I am looking forward to climbing on Creag Dubh this spring when it happens!

In reply to Ron Walker:

Hi Ron, are you suggesting that I lack imagination! Would have thought that is just what is required to visualise the moves before making them just in case.
If it is a case of lacking imagination that is required then soloing on Etive Slabs would be right up your street.

In reply to Lone Rider:


Me too. As should anyone

Stopped for a look at Farrletter today (after a great weekend climbing at Moy, Reiff, Ardmair, Gruinard, and Glenmarksie). It's quite a nice looking wall in a nice location, in a minor crag sort of way.

Upon closer inspection and as a very keen trad cragger, I think it should be mostly bolted as a sport crag, apart from the more classic and protectable cracks.

1. The harder routes do not seem to have any pegs showing, nor any obvious lines. They look like good climbing but are not inspiring as trad leads at that standard. I suspect that very few people aspire to do these as E5s.

2. If as posters mention the crag is often used as top-roping, it seems visitors have already given up on climbing these routes. Top-roping established routes is hardly related to actual climbing, and having them as regularly-led sport climbs would be an ethical step up.

3. Having the crag as a mostly sport crag would much better suit it's "quick hit / stopping off point" nature, which is how I suspect most travelling climbers would want to use it. As mentioned the harder climbs look far too serious and pokey to entice many people for a couple of hours, regardless of whether they are local testpieces.

4. For those that want good inspiring E3-E5s there are far better choices at Creag Dubh, as well as Dunkeld and the various crags up near Inverness.

5. Scottish climbers have proved on many occasions that they can bolt sensibly on a variety of crags without sport climbing ruining trad climbing.
E.g.
Dunkeld - sport and trad side-by-side.
Dumby - sport and trad side-by-side.
Weem - the few trad lines left well alone.
Boltsheugh - the bolts haven't spread to say, Johnsheugh nor Newtonhill.
Brin - only the blankest sections bolted, the good trad left alone.
Creag Nan Luch - bolted but never bolts at Tollie Crags
Goat Crag - bolted but never bolts at Jetty Buttress.
My gut instinct that this would be just the same:
Farrletter - bolted, but never bolts at the classic Creag Dubh nor the more trad friendly Kingussie, Huntly's Cave, Duntelchaig etc.
I really can't see any sport-style crags that Farrletter bolting could spread to, and I think Scots can be trusted to draw a clear line about crag suitability.

In reply to Fiend:
Hi Fiend

Thanks for great well-considered post, and I totally agree with everything you've outlined.

The trouble with sport climbing in Scotland has always been about reactionary dinosaurs who fear sport climbing would destroy the nature and adventure in traditional climbing. I must admit my attitudes to sport climbing have swung either way over the years.
Back in the late eighties myself and a few others, including Grant Farquhar and Mark McGowan quickly removed isolated bolts from routes that were added to Upper Cave Crag. 25 years on, I still think this was the right decision. The routes in question were not actually sport routes, but traditional routes climbed with the odd bolt or two - there was a route with 2 bolts called Cushionfoot Stomp at the right end of the crag. These were quickly removed by Mark McGowan, and the route led on perfectly adequate natural protection (at E4 6a) and renamed All Passion Spent.
Similarly, On Lower Cave Crag a couple of routes - Rab Anderson's retro-bolted Stay Hungry 7a+ & Kenny Spence's Shoddy Body 7b were actual sport routes (as opposed to minimalist bolted trad routes) and would probably be worth re-instating?
Similarly, at Weem in the late 90s, bolts were removed from the perfectly well-protected Saving Up for a Rainy Day (E5 6a) up on Aerial Crag, which happily co-exists next to some reasonable short sport routes.
Regarding Creag Dhubh, I think the last word on the matter should be this:
"Look, that eejit that wants to bolt Creag Dubh is starting up our route, think I'll leave him a jobbie". (Cog, commenting on an unfortunate case of a climber getting caught short on a Winter route somewhere).
It's a fantastic perfectly adequately protected traditional venue with more than enough well-protected routes of all grades. The routes seem to get a fair amount of traffic. Retro-bolting somewhere to make it more popular or bring it down to your own level is not, and never has been a solution.
Anyway, there's more than enough rock in Scotland for sport routes and traditional routes to co-exist. Until a few years ago, I think sport climbing in Scotland was, with a couple of notable exceptions (Cave Crag & Tunnel Wall), pretty scruffy and uninspiring. When the new SMC Scottish Sport climbs guide eventually sees the light of day at the end of the month, I'm convinced that most people's opinions on Scottish Sport climbing will change for the better. There's now a wealth of fantastic sport crags all round the country. It's the "ostrich-mentality" of the die-hard traditionalists that we've got to worry about, with the chopping of bolts on perfectly acceptable sport venues. Sounds like the chopping of the bolts on Farletter is just another example of this?

Cheers,

Gary Latter

In reply to Fiend:
Not wanting to stir up the hornets nest again, but I think it should be noted that the pegs were removed from all the routes when the three lines were bolted this year, which is why it's now hard to see where the original lines went.

In reply to gaz.marshall:

Is that really true? It's news to me, although I haven't been to the crag since bolting. I did look to see how many pegs were left last summer, as I was writing up the crag for Highland Outcrops, and it wasn't many. I still say it's very sad that such a good potential sport crag is wasted, but I live in hope.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Hi Andy, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's true. I couldn't see any of them when I went for a look a month or so back, even the ones on the routes left of Too Farr for the Bear (Einfarrt, Farrplay etc.)

In reply to gaz.marshall:

I'll go and look some day, but am not in a rush unless I'm allowed to take my drill!

In reply to Ron Walker:

In reply to Donnie:

Holy crapnuts. I'm starting to think that all new users at UKC should be made to have a statement about this read to them so the rest of us don't have to read this drivel and then explain it yet again.

Sure, someone could choose not to clip the bolts. HOWEVER, climbing a route traditionally is a lot more than just doing moves and placing cams instead of clipping bolts. Making the decision to embark at all is part of the experience, and the decision is made a lot easier by the presence of shiny steel points of safety all the way up it. Even if you intend to bypass all the bolts, you know in the back of your mind that if you get pumped, shit yourself, or just fancy a cup of tea you can always clip a bolt and it will be fine. The whole MASSIVE element of uncertainty which is at the very heart of any adventure is gone. That's the point of trad climbing -- it's an adventure.

In reply to Flashy:

That's fine if there were any cams to place. Most of Farletter is either clpping bolts or effectively soloing, not normal trad climbing. If it were, the decision to leave it would be easy.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Yeah, I understand that some crags naturally lend themselves more one way than another. Just annoyed at the usual nonsense being trotted out.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

But like plenty of excellent trad climbing. Some of Creag Dubh for example!

PS Checked out Farletter with the above Fiend last week and agree with him that it is a reasonable candidate for some bolting. Personally not too bothered either way though.

In reply to Flashy:

It works both ways. The suggestion that bolting Farletter will undermine the British tradition of trad climbing is similar nonsense. It is more suited to sport than many of Scotland's accepted sport crags.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Yup, it's just got that vibe about it, and would fit into the area well, the other more significant trad crags nearby are very distinct from it.

The main concern would be to stop the wedge getting any thicker and ensure that retrobolting this one crag would not spread inappropriately to other, less suitable, crags.

Personally I can't see many other trad crags that there would be a temptation to retro-bolt, nor any significant ones.

Ian Taylor did point out that if Mungasdale Crag was discovered today it would be bolted as a sport crag, but I can't see anyone wanting to retro that - there's plenty of safe routes (and reasonably inspiring short trad lines) along the crag, and with the fleshpots of Goat Crag, Am Fasgadh, Creag Nan Luch, Grass Crag etc nearby there wouldn't be much motivation.

I think the South Head of Wick could be a fair candidate, it's short, steep, very pokey, not immediately obvious as a readily protectable trad crag, and grossly undergraded. Whether it would happen God only knows, and probably no-one would notice given the location.

Anyone know how/where the wedge could get thicker??

In reply to Flashy: Thank you for the explanation.

Some of us are new (we all were once) and don't understand these things but at least we are making the effort to contribute constructively. A lot of the ethics and ingrained traditions of climbing are not obvious and starting out isn't made easier by the people who have been climbing for 300 years coming along and telling us we are all idiots and that it's all obvious and the like.

It just strikes me that new people reading UKC might think that some (trad in particular) climbers are an unwelcoming elitist bunch and be discouraged from finding a local group and starting out climbing.

In reply to Fiend:

Have you climbed at The Powe, Wick. There are 3 routes and 3 doable open projects there, described in the new guide.

In reply to Fiend:

Malky's Wall area already has some bolts. Poorly cemented ring bolts unfortunately. The quarried walls beneath the road definitely would make a good sport climbing venue.

In reply to aln:

Just to be sure, I'm not actively suggesting anywhere as a suitable canditate, except Farrletter. I just think it's worth considering where retro-bolting could lead (probably not very farr...)

In reply to Fiend:

I think I might have been thinking of the Powe as mentioned above by Andy. I'm not really into bolted climbing but I've climbed there, the rock's good, the lines are good, there's no gear. Perfect place for bolted routes if that's your thing.

In reply to Flashy:
The whole MASSIVE element of uncertainty which is at the very heart of any adventure is gone. That's the point of trad climbing -- it's an adventure.

But Ron has lost his bottle!

In reply to GL:

Hi Gary

Your position does not seem very coherent to me. About Creag Dubh you say:

"Retro-bolting somewhere to make it more popular or bring it down to your own level is not, and never has been the solution."

You then approve of Fiend's subjective assessment of Farrletter, and suggest that it is a perfectly acceptable sport venue.

Farrletter may, briefly, have been a perfectly acceptable sport venue (although clearly not acceptable to everyone). Before that it had for several decades been a perfectly acceptable trad venue (at least, Gaz Marshall and I thought it was a perfectly acceptable trad venue, but Fiend's not so sure) - but then someone pulled the pegs and retro-bolted it to make it more popular or to bring it down to their own level. This is not, and never has been the solution, right?

I don't care that much about Farrletter, but I do care about the principle - the one you espoused in your post that I quoted above.

Just to sharpen our intellects I think it is worth pointing out that, like Farrletter, Creag Dubh is a perfectly acceptable trad venue (at least, Gaz Marshall, Gary Latter and I think it's a perfectly acceptable trad venue, but Ron Walker's not so sure).

In reply to Wicamoi:

We're not talking about Creag Dubh on this thread. Somone else raised it as a red herring and now (as usual) it's taken over. The question is whether Farletter is a suitable sport venue, and it is. Times have changed since it was a suitable trad venue; the pegs have rusted away and we don't like risking our legs nowadays. Are times not allowed to change? No-one (apart from Ron) has suggesting bolting Creag Dubh and it's so obviously not suitable.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Yes, I have read the thread Andy, and I know what has been discussed just as well as you do. Can't you see the point I'm making? There is no right and wrong here, it's just a question of what people want.

Did the pegs rust? The ones I used were fine a few years ago, and you seem to be conveniently over looking Gaz Marshall's view that the bolter stripped the pegs - just as you conveniently overlooked Gaz Marshall's and my comments about how we had onsighted at Farrletter when you made the claim that nobody onsights there anymore.

You, Gary Latter, Fiend, Ron Walker seem to want Farrletter bolted.

Of the four of you maybe only Fiend can put his hand on his heart and swear he has no commercial interest (or is that unfair?).

Of course times are allowed to change. And they will change when there's a consensus for change. I'm just offering my viewpoint.

In reply to Wicamoi:


Absolutely. There's no black and white either, depends on the reason why people want, how strongly, how many would actually climb and what majority is needed before something (either way) happens.


I don't know and I will go to look in due course. But I do know how few were left before the bolting so equally it was an easy point for Gaz to claim whether true or not.



Even if we weren't keen climbers and just worked, the place is useless to us as instructors, same as it's close to useless just now to all climbers. Good for abseiling kids by the local centre though, but we don't do that. And it would be useless as a sport crag with routes too hard for clients, even if we did take them sport climbing. Farletter isn't a bad weather option.



The best consensus is unanimous, which is what I'd like. I firmly believe that if it was bolted amicably, then it would be such a good sport crag that no-one would have any regrets. Folks can still have their good memories about how they got a buzz out of succeeding on route x when falling would have hurt them a lot, but would they climb the route again and would anyone new these days want to.