UKC

In reply to Tyler:

Sorry Tyler, I thought I hsd that one. My point is that I think winter ascents of certain in condition rock routes if fair game, but I personally don't think this is in condition and photos / ascents like these will only fuel the 'we shouldn't climb them at all' camp.

In reply to Exile:

I've been itching to post this all day. I am no winter climbing expert, but that doesn't fit my idea of winter climbing - I've climbed summer routes with more snow and ice on than that!

In reply to Exile: but they were using big Hexes, so must be in condition!

Agree, this is pretty tenuous ground to say the route was in nick....

In reply to Monk:
I am no winter climbing expert, but that doesn't fit my idea of winter climbing - I've climbed summer routes with more snow and ice on than that!

+1

I'm sure I've seen the wall at Calshot with more ice than that!

In reply to Reach>Talent:

+2
I suppose you'd have to be there to make the decision but it looks much to lean for me. A candidate for climbing in boots and gloves maybe, but not the metalworks.

In reply to Exile:

I agree totally. Too many classic rock routes are being spoilt by this kind of thing. Call it dry tooling or aid climbing but its just selfish. If people want to climb in these conditions they should do it in boots and gloves per the previous comment

In reply to angry pirate:

'I suppose you'd have to be there to make the decision but it looks much to lean for me'

99.9% of the time this is exactly what I'd say - I've got photos taken on routes that individually could give the wrong impression about conditions; I know one photo does not indicate the condition of the route and the best person to make that judgement is the one who is there - but on this occasion I'm not convinced.

In reply to Exile:
I'd have take the crampons off and left them at the foot of the climb with the axes. Carrying them let alone trying to climb with them must make the climb a few grades harder.

In reply to Exile:

What harm are they doing, VS in big boots, gets the thumbs up from me, surely you are not insinuating they are wearing crampons and using axes < shock horror> it's hard to tell!!

In reply to Exile: Looks like crampons on rock to me but ethics went out of the window years ago ,crampons on a scramble on Yew Crag in June 2010,winter routes with hardly a hint of snow .I suppose winter climbing is anything done between October and May regardless of conditions now,makes all the bolting arguments seem futile. I suppose Im getting old.

In reply to Exile:

You're way behind me.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=539568&v=1#x7231610

I always had the opinion that people on here got pointlessly wound up by pictures of what they thought were routes out of condition, but others thought were in. As a result of that I got thoroughly bored of any sort of conditions debate and thought you were all a bunch of losers. I now take that back... This one isn't even slightly in condition!!!

In reply to gethin_allen:

That's so last year, Winter bouldering is the future. youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&

In reply to PATTISON Bill:

'but ethics went out of the window years ago'

I would disagree with that as a general statement which, ironically in many ways, is why I highlighted this.

In reply to Exile: I've climbed routes in better winter nick than that, in an old pair of EB's and a thick pair of socks

What is that some folk on here have said, that dry tooling is not a risk to classic routes on classic crags?

In reply to Exile:

Those photos seem to be a year old, and thus from the heady, naive 'pre-Callum' period. Perhaps the perpetrators have learned the error of their ways by now and left the photos up only to remind themselves of their misguided actions in a darker age.

In reply to Exile:

Haha I'm pretty sure it's a wind up

In reply to gethin_allen:

My thoughts exactly.

There is nothing wrong with getting to a crag, finding a route isn't in Winter nick but climbing it anyway in an appropriate style, but pratting around with axes and crampons for the sake of it is faintly ridiculous and just make you look like a complete plonker.

In reply to Monk:


likewise - as soon as I saw it...

Give it a rest lads.

In reply to Exile: I'm a pretty keen winter climber and not against winter climbing classic rock routes as long as there in proper nick (ie covered in hoarfrost, turf fully frozen etc) but this is bloody stupid.

the pictures seems to have gone.

(so I agree, no rime, snow or ice in sight!)

In reply to mav:

So they do. If you hover over the links above you still get a smaller version.

In reply to Exile: Not if you haven't clicked on them already it seems - I can't see anything. So were the pics really that bad?

In reply to TobyA:
Worse.

In reply to nigel n:

Whilst the route does not look in condition to me from the photos, there is a certain irony here. Climbing the route in the conditions pictured is likely to cause less damage than climbing it when hoarded up, all the hooks footholds can clearly be seen so little or no scratching or pedalling required as there is no pesky white stuff hiding the holds.

I agree that the photos look almost comical but I don't think the climbers can be accused of "spoiling" the route.

It would be interesting to hear a report from the climbers photographed as to the conditions they encountered however given the atmosphere on this thread, I doubt they will post.

In reply to Exile: Any external links? The photos have gone...

To the people who climbed the route:

What a shame you did this. I saw the photos and it was absolutely not in condition to climb with axes and crampons. A complete lack of respect for one of our classic climbs and for other climbers.

In reply to TobyA:

I'm not usually a finger pointer, so I'd say yes, much of the route looks like proper dry tooling.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

You are possibly right, but my take on the subject is that people should only climb routes in this style while in winter nick. This has the dual effect of reducing ascents with tools, (their ascent may not do much damage, but if this is acceptable then many ascents in these conditions would,) and preserving a pure winter ethic. (I acknowledge however that this 'pure winter ethic' is in itself opening a whole new can of worms!)

In reply to Michigan:

I don't know if it's right or not, my computer is struggling to open a full size copy of the image, but to be honest I'm more concerned with out of condition ascents of Engineer Slab as it's a route with classic status that is a lot more accessable for many climbers than Dave Macleods latest test piece - if dry tooling ascents in winter were to become acceptable then Engineer Slab would become battered and the true winter ascent experience lost.

I don't think photos of Dave Macleod climbing something that has a crux that potentially never hoars up ,(40 degree roof crack,) encourages people to dry tool other routes so attacking his ascent on this basis is not valid in my opinion.

I don't know, but suspect, the team in the photos travelled a long way and / or were really psyced about doing Engineer Slab, and when they got to the the crag and found the route out of nick, convinced themselves it was in 'marginal' or 'thin' nick, ("Look, ther's a bit of snow in the cracks") they climbed it in any case. I would hazard a guess that they realise this - the photos have been removed, presumably after they read this thread, and they haven't appeared to defend their actions. I'm not damming them, I'm sure most winter climbers have pushed the boundaries at some point or other, and mostly recognise these episodes as not being our finest hour, but I did feel it worth highlighting the photos to try to disuade repeats of this.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

This really is the nub of the argument (if there is one)
Using "it was in condition" or "it wasn't in condition" is pretty non sensical to me. Scratching to the rock will occur if its in "winter condition" or not, a covering of hoar or powder snow makes no difference really does it?

Now 3leggeddog and I agree to disagree on whether winter ascents of engineers slabs and other routes hereabouts should be climbed. He enjoys that sort of thing, I don't and believe the damage done to the rock is lamentable. To me this difference of opinion is fine, I rarely agree with my wife on very much at all!

But to hide behind "it was in winter nick" is really ducking the issue because damage (as I see it, you might not agree) still happens. This really is a very black and white issue. You either accept scrathed up summer rock routes or you don't, so no more sitting on the fence people, because you are only kidding yourselves.

In reply to Dave Ferguson: If only for the reason that the route is in winter nick (white in appearence and easier to climb with crampons and axes- right or wrong!). This would limit the amount of times the route gets done in a season.
Accepting "dry" ascents, for want of a better word, opens up the route for sheep to do in any conditions.

Weather this route should be climbed at all with tools is a seperate issue you'll agree.

In reply to jas wood:

Actually I don't think it is a seprerate issue. If you agree that climbing engineers with axes and crampons is OK - then you think its OK - why deprive someone else of that "enjoyment" just because it isn't white?

In reply to jas wood:

I always think is the stupidest of arguements though, as it is essentially an admission that the activity is damaging. If you think that climbing of rock routes with tools would eventually damage a route so badly that the number of ascents need "limiting" then it's obvious what the actual number of ascents that should be allowed on this limited resource are, regardless of the "condition" of the rock.

In reply to neil the weak:

Fell walking, fell running, mountain biking, rock climbing and winter climbing all damage the environment.

In reply to Exile:

You're right of course, but ascents of summer rock routes with axes and crampons be it in "winter condition" or not accelerate this process much more than rock climbing. If you think that this is acceptable thats fine, but the guys in the photo should be no more castigated than those who climb these routes in "good winter nick".

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

My main criticism is that the route is not in winter condition, I feel strongly that routes should be when climbed with axes and crampons to maintain a pure, (whatever that is) winter ethic. As I damage the outdoors every time I get out, be it in crampon or walshes I don't point fingers on account of 'damage'.

In reply to Exile:

But why is this pure winter ethic so important?

Ice routes cannot be climbed without Ice, Routes relying on frozen turf cannot be climbed effectively without the turf being frozen as placements rip through, climbing rock routes with axes and crampons can be done in any condition which I understand is part of the appeal. I really don't think "winter conditions" make a blind bit of difference. Why spoil these guys fun if you aren't going to comment about damage?

In reply to Dave Ferguson:


Sorry if I haven't made myself clear on damage - I acknowledge that we damage the environment when we go into it and oviously accept this. I don't think anybody should look at the damage a winter climber may cause in isolation and use that as a reason to stop them doing it.

I do understand that harder rock routes could have holds broken and so become impossible in Summer and think that this is a valid reason to look at suitability on a route by route basis, however the likes of Bowfell Buttress, Engineer Slab, Botrill Slab, Pisgah(sp?) Buttress etc are all now well established winter classics, and despite this sort of debate kicking off at least once every winter I have never seen anybody on here, or anywhere else online or in print, or locally, claim the rock climbing on these routes has become harder due to winter climbing.

Watch this, (posted above)

. youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&

or this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enGB414GB4...

The damage / visual impact of the chalk on the Bowderstone, (a beauty spot visited by many thousands of visitors on an annual basis,) is surly far more worthy of abhorrence than some scratches half way up a remote, (by Lakes standards,) north facing mountain crag. However it doesn't, so I struggle to take critism of scratching rock seriously when that critism of 'damage' is very selective.

In reply to neil the weak:

Hence the start of my reply "if only for the reason" worded badly meant if it was only climbed in winter nick it would reduce ascents in a season, as it will be climbable say 10 days a year.
Nobody has suggested if the route has hoar frost on it no damage will be caused.

In reply to Exile: Let's get this straight - tooling up classics like Engineer's slabs that do not accumulate snow and ice because they are dry lines in summer is nothing more than aid climbing. Aid climbing is frowned upon because it destroys the rock and because it reduces the difficulty of an ascent.

Any responsible climber who wishes to impress his peers should go and do these kinds of routes like the pioneers did - in climbing shoes with hands on handholds whatever the conditions.

Otherwise - those individuals bear a huge future responsibility for the destructions of routes, as Bowfell Buttress for example, has been totally ground smooth and destroyed as a route. Those who have never done BB in Winter should be proud they have not contributed to the destruction.

It is time the wise heads in the Lake District community (some on this site like Bill P) make it known that wrecking these routes by multi-coloured gear freaks and nubile ego-maniacs is completely unacceptable to our climbing heritage.

The BMC and the FRCC must be strident in this appeal for common sense.

In reply to Jamie Hageman: I must admit, I do find it quite funny, not to say a bit bottom squirming, that these guys who 'dry tooled' up Engineers slab (plainly wrong by the way) get flamed, but Dave MacLeod does exactly the same on Ben Nevis, and not so much as a titter of criticism.

You can't condone what DM is doing because it's 'pushing boundaries' and then criticise others because it's not.

This is the problem with modern winter climbing ethics - there's too much inconsistency.

Dry tooling is dry tooling - irrespective of who is doing it.

The argument shouldn't be just about damage, it should be about the whole issue of whether dry tooling is ethical in a mountain environment or not.

And if it's not, then that applies to EVERYONE!

In reply to Goucho: No, the arguement is about whether Britains most starred and best rock climbs are suitable for tooling up. The crucial difference between what these guys did and what Dave has done is that one ascent was of a truly classic 3* summer rock route, and the other an ascent of a section of rock which will never see use in any other way. If you can't see the difference there, you need to think about it a bit more.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

No it is not aid climbing (unless you also class sticky boots or chalk as aid). The emotive use of the word "aid" is silly and does nothing for the debate.

Style is also irrelevant (except entirely subjectively to the climbers) unless it actually affects anyone else. Here it does not.

The only issue is whether the scratching of the rock is acceptable or not.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Hi Dave, I'm not in scotland, interview next week. If you fancy a very early trip out to Gt end or somewhere tomorrow get in touch, need to be home for lunch though. Garry South has taken a long slide down gardyloo gully, he is ok but has lips like Mick Jagger! He is the real Captain Calamity, there is no disaster Garry cannot survive.

Anyway back to the thread. You are correct about the nub of the argument. Climbing mixed routes is enjoyable, like most climbing and it leaves its trail, again like most climbing. I find the damage acceptable, it is only visible up close to other climbers, people who understand the sport and leave their own trail be it a scratch, chalk or rubber stain.Compare the scratches on Engineers (it is not as bad as some would have you believe)with the chalk stains on countless areas of steep rock. These stains are often visible from the road/footpath/pub window and so impact on a much broader spectrum of society than the scratches. I have my suspicion that the recent spate of grit chipping is a reaction to the chalk stains (I have no evidence, just my thoughts).

The real issue is when we damage our own sport, either by cleaning the turf from that new route to get the glory in the guidebook or by prising crucial flakes off rock routes with tools. So far as Engineers goes, the turf went long ago and those crucial holds do not exist.

Again it would be good to hear from the climbers themselves, they were there, they know what they encountered.

In reply to Robert Durran: Style is entirely relevant. As others have said, rock is scratched on steep mixed whether free of snow or rimed.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If you are still unclear about that, you are not getting the point.

In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Precisely. And that is one reason why it is not relevant!

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

You are right. I have absolutely no idea what else the point could possibly be.

In reply to neil the weak: If your argument is that 3*** summer classics shouldn't be dry tooled because of damage, then I completely agree.

However, is that not a somewhat simplistic argument, because does dry tooling a route like Engineer's, cause more damage than climbing it when it's got hoare frost/snow dusting etc?

I still do feel however regarding folk like DM etc, that people are rather reticent to criticise because of his status, and whether you like to agree or not, it does set a precedent which is open to misrepresentation.

Also, who says that the piece of rock DM tooled up, will never become a summer rock route - Never - I remember Dave Nichol using that word regarding free climbing Kilnsey Main Overhang back in the 70's.

In reply to Goucho: My arguement is simply that I don't see how someone can say, "winter climbing classic summer routes is OK, but we should try and minimize the number of ascents to limit the damage" as someone did above. To me, if a person thinks ascents need limiting then they logically need limiting to zero. It either is OK to climb these routes with tools, or it isn't. Simple as that. I'm personally not all that keen on Britains very best rock climbs getting regular winter traffic but that wasn't the point I was making really.

As to Dave's current project, he's said I gather that he couldn't climb it in summer and he is quite good at the old rock climbing apparently. Anyway I wouldn't automatically give summer rock climbing priority, but I do think that our long established classic climbs are a part of British climbing culture / history worth protecting so they are a differnt thing to me than winter tooling of new ground.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

For the hundredth time, IT'S NOT BLOODY AID CLIMBING!!! It might be a sin against god, or a crime against humanity, but mixed climbing (in perfect or terrible conditions) isn't frigging aid climbing. To anyone who has aid climbed and mixed climbed this would be patently obvious, making me wonder if you've tried either.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I think that should have started 'let's get this straight, in my opinion...'

My opinion is different, having, as Toby suggests, aid and mixed climbed.

In reply to Exile: I feel I could have added a few more exclamation marks to my post, what with green <I have some unresolved issues> font not being an option.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Interestingly the only route I have ever done that I felt was spoilt by damage was as a result of excess polish.

In reply to everyone: ENOUGH! STOP IT! Your circular arguments mean nowt lads...it's a waste of your life commenting on this anymore... I'm off to play, hope you are too. x

In reply to Exile:

But it's not even a matter of opinion.

In reply to Dave Cumberland: i think you're a little confused about mixed climbing and aid climbing.
Aid climbing isn't "frowned upon because it damages the rock". In fact, clean aid probably does less damage than regular free climbing as you're not polishing holds, just pulling on gear.
It sounds pedantic, but you're putting down a very misunderstood area of rock climbing.

In reply to Andy Can:

Think you're right

In reply to Exile: Love it, hate it, agree with it, or disagree with it, what is patently obvious is none of us can stop what we don't like happening in winter climbing ethics from happening.

There is no law regarding what is and isn't allowed. If we're all honest, we don't want laws dictating how we can and can't climb, and what is "in". Let's face it, we all want to enforce our own views on others, which will never be accepted by those who oppose those views.

"Ethics" are accepted by some of the climbing community, and not by others, but that's only because the accepted ethics are not the opinions of all. Who are any of us to dictate what anyone else can or can't do in the relatively unimportant world of winter climbing.

I am on the side of those who think that a lot of routes are climbed when conditions are not in, and that bare rock with a bit of hoar is unacceptable. However, it's not my business to expect everyone to agree with me and abide by my ethics. One thing I do disagree with is the arrogance of some top climbers who think that because they are the best everyone should accept their ethics.

In reply to Exile: Is there as much debate between climbers in other countries that have co-existing winter and summer climbs, as there seems to be in the UK?