UKC

Does anyone know why the land owner removed access from this excellent crag?

It is eluded to in the new FRCC Eden Valley guide, but it doesn't explain the situation fully. I get the impression that the land owner wanted to ban climbing at Armathwaite, but couldn't because it is on a public right of way, so banned Lazonby out of spite. I presume this happened about twenty years ago?

Is there anyway the BMC could renegotiate access or even buy the crag off the land owner?

Feel free to private message me if you don't want to post on the forums.

Tom Ripley.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I have no idea why it's banned but my bf lives in Lazonby and we always see it in the guide and.wish we could go.. Would be awesome if access was reopened.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Tom

I don't think that Lazonby and Armathwaite belong to the same land owner. There were access problems at Armathwaite when the big house by the river and just before the pub tried to stop people using a well established path under the bridge and along the riverside to the crag. There is a public footpath from the pub to the crag (and even better it also goes from the crag to the pub!) so it was no problem. Access to the coombs woods above the crag or walking upstream has never been a problem.

Lazonby is a different kettle of fish, the land is estate land with no public rights of way. In fact if you look at an OS Map you will see that the area to the West and North of Lazonby (especially Lazonby Fell) is a no go zone for public rights of way. I don't think access for climbing was ever accepted by the estate. I recall having to be discrete when visiting the crag over 30 years ago. As for the BMC buying them off, I suspect they couldn't afford to. I don't think the issue is anythng to do with liability or any such thing, they keep people out because they can (get orf my land!). Goodness knows how much it costs to fish the river for salmon or shoot in the woods - the estate is a businessand a pretty big one at that.

As for the climbing, thrilling in good and bad ways (some snappy rock which is not as good as that at Armathwaite) Ah happy days in great company.

Thanks for your reply Trevor.

What about Right to Roam, CRoW and all that? Or does that not apply to the Eden Valley?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Nobody can own land.

Who bought it off of who in the first place?

Kill the rich.

c*nts, the lot of them.

Move the border -)
Intolerable.

In reply to The Pylon King:

You don't have to be "rich" to own land, anyone who owns their own house, including myself, owns land though it wouldn't be much use for walking over or for any other activity.

Perhaps a better way to describe ownership would be something like: legal custodionship or stewardship. The land will be here long after any current "owner" so it's a matter of keeping the land in the best state for the next "owner" to look after.

What the land is actually used for is a side issue and does shift with time. Only 70 years ago the overriding primary use was food production, now that we have a more efficient agricultural sector and import a large amount of our food other uses, such as leisure, have come to the fore. Along with that is an increased awareness of the environment so things like National Parks, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and SSSIs have come in to being. Would you insist on being able to trample anywhere in an SSSI?

I don't know the reasons why the estate bans access to Lazonby, I doubt I'd agree with them as a lot of such bans are rooted in ignorance dressed up as "tradition". There may be some valid ecological reason why a ban is in place - Chapel Head is a good example of this - but I doubt it.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber: A mass trespass is called for, on a regular basis I would say.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The legislation depends on how the land is used. You get access to open moorland and hillsides but you can't get access to farmland and forestry which is fairly common sense.

However if the landowner fenced or walled off moorland or took other action to 'improve' the land in the past it might then have been exempt. (This is the situation at Vixen Torr).

I don't know the Eden Valley but for some reason it will not have met the strict definition for access land and there is not much that can be done about that.

In reply to Al Evans:

Sadly Al that would only make a difficult situation only worse.

The crag is on private land and there is no right of way. Furthermore the landowner is extremely well connected and has the resources to fight a protracted legal battle.

The reason access was lost in the first place was a combination of the previous owner dying, his son - who is a lot less sympathetic to climbers - inheriting the estate, and some irresponsible actions on the part of some visiting climbers -- litter/ mess/ noise'/ leaving gates open/ obstructing access tracks by thoughtless parking / climbing in areas that were banned. The original 1980 guide set out access issues in some detail. Local climbers back in the day knew access was granted 'on sufferance' and respected the landowners restriction. The loss of access to the Lazonby Crags , and in particular to the superb Wirewalk Buttress saddens me very much. I enjoyed some wonderful days and evenings there.

Ron Kenyon of the local EVMC (one of the original developers of the crag) has been in protracted negotiations for many years over regaining access but to date the landowner has proved intransigent. Armathwaite crag is owned by the same landowner, but access is via a right of way so has no such issues.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I'd like to know why Scotland has ended up where it is with access rarely a problem and the situation in England/Wales which seems to me very restricitive. It is not as if Scotland has been free of landowners demanding privacy, is there a piece of the historical jigsaw I'm missing?

In reply to drmarten:

Basically more egalitarian and socialist in outlook and action.

In reply to drmarten:

Yes.

The historic 'right to roam' that was widely believed to exist in Scotland was more myth that reality, but nonetheless proved a powerful cultural influence and help contribute to the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. For a great explanation of the historical and legal context see http://www.caledonia.org.uk/land/documents/Community-Rights-and-Access-to-L...

In reply to The Pylon King:



I think you'll find compared to a lot of the world's population you would be considered 'rich'.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Hi

I emailed Tom on saturday on this.

Interesting your idea of a mass trespass - this was mentioned recently elsewhere. Unfortunately it is on "very" private land on which the owners spent £74000, some years ago, on a court case to stop access there and at Armathwaite. They did not get this at Armathwaite but did at Lazonby. They don't own the land at access just the house next to the bridge (though this may have changed).

I have made contacts and recently was in contact with a relative of one of the parties as well as being a climber and his comment was "don't bother".

The land is not open land, in a gorge of the Eden, owned and looked after by the owners, with fishing rights etc. I met the then owner (Sir Gerald Ley) in 1969 and he granted access - though he believed it was only for locals and not general access - but went along with that. He has now died and his family are in charge. I will keep trying - a mass trespass would not help !! We put it in the guide in the hope that one day we can enjoy the likes of Merry Monk etc again - but sadly this may not be the case - but who knows !