UKC

After spending the weekend with a set of found BD C3's on grit, I'm very tempted to invest in my own set!

I was wondering if any "in the know" bods here have any info if DMM are designing/making any micro cams soon...?

Likes of C3's were narrow heads fitting in shallow placements, and flexibility over horizontal breaks.

Biggest dislike was the faff with extending them with a draw 90% of the time, and the slightly fragile look of the lobe push wires.

What's everyone's favourite micro?

In reply to Twigger: Do you really find extending with a draw more faff than untangling the silly little extension sling on the dragons?

I used a mate's dragons for the first time and found them very faffy - half the time I'd unclip the wrong side of the sling and the sewn part would get stuck in the cam. I'll stick to BDs and quickdraws thankyouverymuch!

In reply to Fultonius:
I always thought it is pretty obvious which side of the sling to pull on the dragons.

In reply to Twigger:
So far I've had no issue with the lobe push wires but I only own one C3 and have only owned that for about 1 year.

The new Camalot micro cams with 4 lobes look like they are going to be rather nice (but rather pricey!)

You can buy C3s for 40 notes in go outdoors by the way!

In reply to CurlyStevo:
The camalot X4 are due out in may and whilst they are quite a bit narrower (in most sizes) than other 4 lobe competition the C3's are a fair bit narrower.

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...

In reply to Twigger: I found c3s to be a bit flimsy, I broken a wire the first time I placed mine... I've since been using totem basics which are great, four lobes but much narrower than baby dragons and super flexible too for breaks etc

Tried the wild country ones and really didn't get along with them, some people swear by them though

In reply to Fultonius:

You just have to remember to pull the sewn end - not overly complex!

I'd be tempted to rack them with a draw, why carry that redundant clip?

Or even better get Wild Country to sew their sling on (Zero's look very flimsy), but doubt they would do that.

In reply to Fultonius: just clip and pull down on the sewn side, it's automatic after the first couple of times, easy.

In reply to CurlyStevo: Maybe it comes with practise, but when I'm pumped, jammed awkwardly in a corner and just want to ram in a cam I don't want to have to think about which bit of cord to unclip. I suppose I could still just ram a QD onto it but it seems to defeat the purpose of having the extendable sling in the first place.

Other than that they seem like nice cams. Personal preference really.

In reply to Twigger:

"Id be tempted to rack them with a draw, why carry that redundant clip?"

erm as you may want the draw for something else! Either that or your carrying redundant draws!

In reply to Fultonius: I've never really understood this argument. With the dragons, you have the option to extend if the placement calls for it without using a quickdraw, with the C3s you don't. If your a bit pumped and don't want the faff of extending the sling on the dragon, you can just clip a quickdraw to it, as you would with a C3.

I see a lot of people extending the sling on dragons when it's not really necessary. Is this where the misunderstanding comes from?

In reply to alooker:
unfortunately the totem basics don't go that small and I don't know of any UK supplier for the fixe faders version of the aliens (which go very small and are actually pretty strong still! 8kn smallest 8mm)

In reply to Double Knee Bar: I'm not using at as an argument against them, I just didn't think it was a benefit to have.

I use sling-draws quite a lot which are a similar principle (i.e. you can extend them or just use them tripled up) but I've had extendable slings on the older DMM 4CUs and just never really got into them.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I guess so, it depends on where you draw the micro cam line. They don't go as small but I find the sizes they do to be much better than the competition. x4s look interesting though

In reply to Twigger:

Got mastercams from 00 to 2. Really like them.

In reply to Twigger: C3's are awesome, and are the best micro cams by miles. Cheapest at go outdoors I believe...

The sling on Dragons is a major, major faff. Why would you want that on a microcam you're probably going to be placing from a pretty tenuous position? If you're that concerned about the time taken to quick a draw on, clip them so they protect you and then mess around with extending them.

As for extending cams full stop, I think I've only ever done it a few times. What sort of routes are you guys climbing where you extend cams that often? (slightly off topic I know...)

In reply to Twigger: I think my dream cam rack is a set of Dragons in the larger sizes, say 1/2-5 and a set of micro cams for smaller placements. Just haven't decided what smaller cams to get yet, the X4s look perfect but expensive

In reply to ianstevens:

2 routes that I had drag that nearly had me off were Pram pushers at Almscliff (got pumped, shoved in a green dragon, didnt extend it then got a shock on the top-out mantle!) and Tower crack at plantation, big placement deep in a break at the top before traversing to the belay.

40 quid at go outdoors is a steal!

How often do you extend nuts? - every time you place them - do you just put a clip straight to the nut and clip that? not unless you're climbing in the 80's and called Ron!

In reply to Twigger: Surely on those micro routes you get in the peak you barely need to extend any cams, no?

In reply to Fultonius: yup, on deep gritstone breaks.

In reply to ianstevens: I've just returned from Morocco where 60 metre pitches are not unusual. We extended loads of cams as well as ordinary nuts and still managed to experience some excessive drag in places. On a similar note I bought some DMM Torque nuts which have a similar "extending sling" and I have to say that I thought they were marvelous, both the nuts and the sling arrangement which I found easy to manage. You just pull the side with the stitched seam to extend the sling. This allowed us to carry less QD's than we otherwise might have needed.

In reply to Fultonius: I'm with you on this.

Sat on the sofa at home it's easy to do, on a route where it might be set back and you're getting pumped, not able to see the cam so well, it's not so easy.

I try and rack it with the sewn part at the carbiner so when I un-clip I hold the sewn part and the carabiner together when opening the gate. I don't always remember though.

Be nicer if the sling pulled through whichever way.

In reply to Twigger:
I wasn't saying I've never extended anything, and definitely not that people don't extend cams ever and there is no need. It's just that I find it a rare event when I have to! But then I guess that's a combination of either short, straight Grit routes or borderline religious use of half rope elsewhere.

Back on topic (ish) I generally find that microcams end up in shallow cracks or pockets, and as such don't really need to be extended very often. Hence a microcam with a double sling arrangement seems like excess faff. On top of this, they're pretty fiddly with thumb loops as it is, and I could see the removal of that (to accommodate an extendable sling, presuming you don't come up with another method) make them rather easy to drop.

In reply to ianstevens:
I find if you don't extend cams in vertical cracks its not unusual for them to twist as you climb up, this can often move the cams in to a less optimal position making failure more likely.

In reply to Twigger:

I've not heard any rumours but others may know more...


I'm not a great fan of C3s and much prefer WC Zeros due to their extendable slings.


Zeros. But I'd happily climb with Mastercams or Aliens (CCH, Fixe or Totem).

I'd pick those three over anything else on offer but that might change once I've had a proper look at the BD X4s.

In reply to Twigger: ive had a full set of c3's since they came out 06?,they are well used and work like new,pretty amazing really...

In reply to Twigger: I like WC zeroes. Master cams aren't bad either but the smaller sizes open up if loaded horizontally and they aren't great when used on sea cliffs (they rust), c3s are too stiff. Aliens are very nice and probably my favourite small cam followed by zeroes though if master cams were cheaper than either of the two above I would get them. The only ones I wouldn't buy are actually the BD c3s

In reply to Twigger:
I emailed DMM a few months ago about this and was told they had no plans to release a micro cam any time soon.

Luckily the X4's are out soon so hopefully they will be half decent for £65...

In reply to Tommyads:


I'd wager that they aren't going to be as good as this tried and tested design, which retails for £15 less.

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...

To the OP: I'd avoid master cam, they don't like salt water very much and seize up readily in my expirence.

I've not used Zeros or C3s much, mainly because the former feels like a toy and the later is too stiff.

I'm with Fultonus, the extendable sling on the Dragon is a faff and a wear point. I prefer Camalots, that is personal preference.

In larger sizes I would go for DMM Demon Cams, because they are lighter and cheaper.

HTH

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
I don't find the C3s to stiff, they are plenty bendy enough in the stem and if you can climb F5+ I can't see retracting the trigger being an issue!

The problem I have with the zeros is I only owned one, the trigger wire broke and WC told me they would not replace it but would sell me a new cam for 25 quid, seeing as the other one only lasted 2 or so years and was hardly ever placed I didn't consider this value.

The problem with the Totem Basic Cams are they only go down to size 0 tech friend and I want 1-2 micro cams smaller than this. They are also not that narrow in the head in the smaller sizes compared with the X4 or C3.