In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Martin Hore)
>
> I think its very easy to overdo the 'bold' aspect of grading a route. There are plenty of mountain Vdiffs where a fall would mean a serious injury because no matter how many runners, you will hit something hard.
>
> To get an adjectival grade 2 away from the 'par' technical grade I think the route has to be exceptional by being bold and sustained or bold and loose - being bold alone isn't enough.
>
> Sunset slab is a bit of an anomoly but being on a honey pot gritstone crag gets more significance placed on it than it deserves. Grit is always dangerous to use as a benchmark for the grading system in any case with so many 'routes' verging on high ball boulder problems. Better to use longer routes as bench marks: Satans Slip, perhaps, or something on the Etive slabs.
Graham - a very interesting reply, thank you. I'm not quite sure I agree with you completely, but I certainly agree that whether a route is sustained, and/or loose, is relevant as well as whether you can protect it. So if you accept my underlying argument that a route that's got "death fall" potential from a single crux should have an adjectival grade 2 away from par, then a route that's got the same fall potential from a sustained sequence of crux moves that rely on loose holds should be 3 or even 4 adjectival grades away from par, which agree is perhaps taking things too far.
Looking at it another way though, you could say it's about what grade you are prepared to solo. Currently I'm happy to lead a standard E1 5b (say the main pitch of Superdirect which I led Sunday) I'd be "happy" (on a very occasional basis only) to solo 4c, effectively what I did on Grey Arete. But I definitely would not consider soloing 5a. (I suspect that is what most climbers with E1 5b as their top grade would say). So on an E1 5a I would want to find sufficient gear to save me from a deck-out or massive factor 2 fall. I've done Satan's Slip, and I felt there was probably just enough gear to prevent that outcome, certainly more than I found on Grey Arete. If I overestimated the reliability of the gear on Satan's Slip, then perhaps you could argue for E2 5a.
As for Sunset slab, you could look at it both ways. Yes, it's a honey-pot crag, so perhaps the guidebook writers urge on the side of caution. But if you break a few bones falling off Sunset Slab, you are probably no more than 45 minutes from hospital. Not so on Grey Arete, certainly not so on Satan's Slip. So you could argue for even more caution on remote crags.
PS, I'm assuming you're the GrahamD involved in the Ground Up team (and much else of course)? As I've indicated in another post on this thread, I'm absolutely not suggesting that we should blame guidebook writers if we come to harm by placing too much faith in the guidebook grade. It's a very helpful guide, but no more. We all take our own decisions whether or not to climb a route, and full responsibility for the consequences.