UKC

I am not a vegetarian.

However, I am very removed from my food chain. A friend of mine has invited me to go shooting this weekend. The idea is to go shoot some rabbits or possibly wood pigeon and eat them. I enjoy shooting but so far have only gone clay pigeon shooting.

Pros:

>I have no problem with hunting ethically, if you're hunting for a meal.
>No rabbits ever die of old age, it's only a matter of time before they get eaten by something
>Should I be able to shoot something? If I cant, does it make me a hypocrite and I should go veggie.

Cons:

>There's already plenty of dead animals in the butchers, I dont need to kill an extra one myself.
>Philosophical arguments aside, at the end of the day I will be taking the life of a very specific animal. One that would be alive if I didn't

...what do people think about going hunting?

In reply to Kemics:

This quite debated actually, if wild populations experience ageing.. cateract has been observed in oppossums.

In reply to Kemics: At this time of year a wood pigeon is likely to be raising chicks and a rabbit is likely to have young. Can you even go out and shoot things during the breeding season? I don't know much about hunting to be honest but given that it's illegal to disturb any nesting bird it seems odd if you can shoot one.

In reply to Alyson:

I'm not 100% sure on this. My friend has the land permissions, licenses etc. He's a very straight guy, so I wouldn't expect him to be doing anything not permitted.

I think the case is that as they are counted as pests, you can shoot them all year round. There's no seasons as such.

In reply to Kemics: I bought a powerful air rifle a couple of years ago and took up target shooting. There are a couple of wood pidgeons in my garden that are a nuisance, crapping on my car, scaring all the other birds away from the bird feeding table etc. but I do not have the heart to shoot them. At a push I could possibly shoot a rat if I thought it was going to become a problem and I could shoot an animal for food if I thought the alternative was that me and my family would starve. I suppose I have to accept that I am therefore a bit of a hypocrit in that regard.

In reply to Kemics:

"Counted as pests" is a debatable point. They are doing what they evolved to do.

I wouldn't eat things like rabbit and wood pigeon mainly because what is the point for so little meat? At least a chicken and a cow serves the plates of many in its death. The smaller the animal in comparison to us, the more pointless I see in killing it. Plus I have a house rabbit, so eating rabbit would be like eating dog to me.

In reply to Kemics: go,you will enjoy it.
i dont like any cruelty but when i go shooting i will blast rabbits pigeons or what ever.the thrill of hunting will take over your thought of the animal.
my dog had a rabbit the other day,was a right buzz watching her run it down and catch it.doing what they have been bred for

my mates motto 'if it flies it dies'

In reply to Milesy:

No it's not. A rabbit is a pest. On your land you have a duty to control numbers and prevent damage.

They are a non-native species, probably the UK's most costly invasive species.

In reply to mark s:

Seriously?? That's a pretty disgusting attitude.

In reply to mark s:
Corrected that for you. Personally I like to think that I'm more evolved than my dog and can still empathise with an animal that I plan to kill and eat.
If i could shoot, i would happily kill rabbits or pigeons for eating. I'm not sure whether it's a bit mean to do it when they are raising young, it certainly means there's a risk that your meal could cause significantly more suffering than you intended.

In reply to IainRUK:

Costly to who? A "pest to humans" is the phrase you want to use. Humans might be at the top of the food chain but we don't own the planet! Humans are the planets most costly invasive species.

In reply to Milesy: No.. they are non-native. Yes we are too. Look atrgue all you want. BY LAW YOU HAVE TO CONTROL RABBITS.

THEY ARE A PEST.

These are statements defined by UK law. You can say it's debateable but these facts are clear..

I suggest you read up on Australian History about how bad rabbits can be if left unchecked.

In reply to Kemics:

I think it's great that you're giving it so much thought.


Yes. If you can't kill it, I don't think you should be eating it. I too have little against hunting as long as it serves a purpose (and I'm a (lacto-ovo) vegtarian).

In reply to Kemics:

>...what do people think about going hunting?

It's strictly for wankers of the first order.

You're being asked to enjoy killing things. That's not good.

jcm

In reply to Milesy:


They're delicious.


That's a different issue
jk

In reply to Alyson:
Agreed his mate sounds like a right tool.

In reply to Kemics:

Interesting one - I'm off to Canada soon, and my cousin wants to take me hunting deer. I am inclined to go, provided that we eat what we shoot (he has a very large freezer), and on the basis that if I can't bring myself to kill the deer, I have no business eating meat again...

In reply to Kemics:

I don't see the enjoyment in it, but I don't have a problem with shooting animals for food. I eat meat, so it'd be hypocritical to object, really.

And as rabbits legally have to be controlled, which in practice generally means shooting, I'd rather they were eaten afterwards than wasted.

Mind you, I still find it a little disconcerting to see a couple of blokes in camo gear with guns wandering along the other side of the back hedge of an evening!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not Always, Depends why you're going shooting.

A few years back I was living in the countryside and working to manage a SSSI. I wouldn't normally go out and shoot but I did know how.

My next door neighbor got a call from one of his friends who owned a local farm, the guy was basically in tears as he'd been out to one of his pea fields and the rabbits and pigeons had destroyed nearly a third of his crop in two weeks.

He didn't like gas and it was too expensive, and refused to put down poison as it was too indiscriminate and could take the deer, otters other wild life in the area but couldn't stop his livelihood being stripped away.

So for the next month or so he made sure there were a couple of guns out each afternoon and we managed to fill two chest freezers with meat that we fed our families with and had a slap up BBQ in the summer.

Not all hunters are wankers who enjoy killing things, who drive up from london in a range rover and blat away at anything that moves(but some are). Some of us care about land management (for humans and wildlife) and in part like to know what we are eating and where it comes from. I've always had the attitude of if your prepared to eat it you should be prepared to kill and dress it yourself and I have a much bigger problem with 2 for £5 chickens than someone taking rabbits home at the weekend.


Having said that "if it flies, it dies" is a crap attitude and one we could do without.

Pete

In reply to Pete Fish: Good post Pete. I'm probably not pro-hunting generally but I agree with you on the cheap chicken thing.

In reply to Pete Fish:

I don't call protecting your livelihood 'hunting'.

jcm

In reply to Kemics:

depends on the hunting.

blowing shit away with a shotgun and spot light is uncool. personally i think any form of hunting that doesnt involve enough stalking, waiting, markmanship and trailing to make it about a 50% chance that you wont get game (ie, the animal has a chance of winning) is 'killing' rather than hunting.
hunting is a skill set. killing animals is about emotions.

yes, you should go; if its with the right mentality to learn the skills, respect the process and come to understand a part of being human. eating? yeah thats one aspect, and tho valuable, theres more to it than food. no need to get all hippy about it, but to take a life you need to accept that part of you both dies and is kept alive by the process.

theres a few lessons that cant be learned any other way, and are maybe irrelevant to most in a modern world, but if you go to learn you wont be let down.

if you get into it, think about bow hunting.

In reply to Pete Fish:

yeah, i agree. That's a well considered post. I think hunting is infinitely preferable to factory farming.

I worked briefly doing livestock transport and during a few months only made 1 delivery to an abattoir. But it was a very intense experience that sticks with me. Certainly made me think about the quality of the food i'm eating. It was nearly 10 years ago and i've not eaten any "fast food" since.

I guess, it's either go veggie, or go hunting. But I think i'll feel a certain amount of remorse if I do shoot something. What's more likely is we stomp round a field in the rain and come back empty handed

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

That's a fair point, it's not.

But most of the guys who were out there would consider themselves hunters and during the winter would be part of syndicates that stocked and the shot pheasant and duck.

The Farmer was using people who enjoy hunting to do his work for him, there were probably 20 guys out, none of them paid (except in meat) and all of them giving up time and money (in shot) to help out a guy that (except for a few) they didn't know.

We don't know weather the friend in the OP has been asked by a farmer to do him a favour (that he enjoys) or if the friend asked the farmer if he can come onto his land so kill small fluffy animals.

If what your saying is "people who get off on killing things indiscriminately to see things explode" are wankers, then I would agree. I can't stand corporate shoots where they do things like release birds from hampers so they can guarantee that all those that have paid for the privilege get a shot and the entire mentality that goes with it.

But if I'm going out with a gun with the intention of killing something for food (or pest control) then I would consider that hunting.

It might just be terminology thing.

In reply to ice.solo:

Yeah my friend is very much of this ethic. It's called fair-chase hunting. Essentially, you accept a much greater chance of failure and give the animal a good shot at escape. There's no scenting, or food traps (ugh dont get me started on food traps)

I'm pretty sure bow hunting is completely illegal in the u.k. Essentially most people are terrible shots and it's not a very effective method. There's a very large chance that you wound an animal, it then runs off to a den and dies slowly and unnecessarily.

In reply to Alyson:

yes we have a strict no fun rule and no banter.
wouldnt dream of going out with my mates and have a bit of banter.
yeah swans and golden eagles are all fair game

In reply to Kemics:
I have never gone hunting, but I have gone fishing.
We fished until we had enough, came ashore, then had fresh mackerel on the barbecue.
It tasted good!

There was something deeply satisfying about eating what we had caught ourselves, rather than bought in a shop.

This could be called enjoying killing animals.
But I maintain that this sort of enjoyment is different from the power trip of watching things die, or revelling in the gore and destruction.

In reply to ice.solo:
I totally disagree here. What you call "hunting" is an aesthetic experience as much as anything else.
What you call "killing" is not necessarily about emotions. It is often about doing a job. It is often about keeping the population down or getting fresh meat in as humane and efficient way as possible.

Subsistence hunters would prefer a higher kill rate, and indeed often devised means of killing animals where the animals had a very low chance of escape. Look at some of the ways people caught birds and gathered eggs on northern Atlantic coasts, and indeed still do today in parts of Greenland and Scotland. But this was not about emotion, other than the satisfaction of knowing your family will have enough food to see out the winter.

On a personal note, I spent a year in a slaughter house, which is as little like "hunting" as is possible, where the animals had zero chance of escape. Yes, there was one person who was weird and got a buzz out of kicking freshly severed heads around, but he was generally regarded as strange. For the rest of us, killing, skinning, gutting and all the rest of it was no more or less emotional than commuting to work or debugging some code or optimising a database.

In reply to Pete Fish:

... where they do things like release birds from hampers ...

Pete, I shoot and have come across suggestions of practices such as you describe - but never any evidence. Have you first-hand knowledge of that or not?

In reply to mark s:

Oh dear...

In reply to almost sane:


Not to criticise you specifically, since by eating meat I'm effectively passing off the burden of killing to someone else, but maybe the process of slaughtering and butchering should be more emotional, for everybody, than typing code?

In reply to Kemics:
Personally I enjoy going hunting, I enjoy eating meat and as I shoot rabbit and pigeon then I prepare it for the pot. It is not however just a case of standing in a field and making mince of whatever comes past with a shot gun. I hunt with an air rifle which ensures you require an entire different skill set to the bang and woof brigade. The first difference is that air rifles are limited under law to a certain power level (over which it becomes a firearm), therefore you have to get closer to your quarry in order to ensure a clean kill. Furthermore the rifle take a single pellet rather than the multiple particles of shot delivered from a 12 bore over a large area. This has the downside that you need to be a good aim to get a clean kill (head shot for preference) however once you can do this you are safe in the knowledge that you won’t be digging shot out of your food at the dinner table. Personally my favourite method of hunting is to simply go for a walk with the gun round fields and woods. This I find immensely satisfying as when you are out you slow everything down, try to make as little noise and blend in as much as possible. This allows you to not only concentrate on your quarry but also enjoy the rest of nature around you. Then there is also the pleasure of stalking, spotting a bunny a good 50 yards away and through stealth reducing the gap to 25 yards without him noticing, gaining an optimum shooting stance, ensuring a calm steady aim before taking a shot is a skill in itself.
Last weekend I had the pleasure of shooting in some woods; it was a lovely sunny afternoon and I had very carefully picked my way through a heavily wooded area of pines to clearing of birch and bluebells. On clearing the pines I was lucky enough to spot a dear slowly wandering into the pines at the other side. Then I spotted some more movement and sure enough there were her two tiny fawns jumping through the bluebells. I made my way towards them as quietly as possible and was able to get within 20 yards before stopping to watch them. They can’t have been a week old and stayed for about 5 minutes before wandering off after mother. Doubtless if your average punter had been out for a stroll the deer would have heard them a mile off and fled, the person being oblivioud to their existence. As is was, by going out hunting, staying quiet and alert I was lucky enough to have a truly magical encounter with nature.

In reply to DNS:

Not First hand I'm afraid, second hand from someone who went on a corporate shoot for work at a country manor/hotel.

Might be Hearsay but there were enough similar stories that it was taken at face value.

Pete

In reply to Kemics:

Get in, have a nice time, and any bunnies you don;t have the heart or guts to skin and jot for yourself, send them my way. Yummy.

Sx

In reply to Milesy:

I see, so you are a fluffytarian.

In reply to Kemics:


I once shot a rabbit and ate it, which was nice. However, I am generally happy to let others do the killing for me on the basis they are better at it and less likely to cause suffering. I eat anything but do have doubts about eating some things (e.g. pigs) on the basis of intelligence. Killing something that is obviously intelligent somehow to me seems closer to being wrong than killing something obviously stupid, like a rabbit (or most herbivores).

I don't "get" people who enjoy hunting defenceless animals for the thrill. How can shooting birds and rabbits be exciting? If there is a chance of being killed in the process (such as with bears, say), I can just about see the appeal but still wouldn't want to take part.

In reply to Sarah G:

I've got a dead rat in my garage I finished off with a shovel last night after my Jack Russell had caught it and paralysed it. Do you want that?

In reply to teflonpete: Why not let the dog eat it? My ferret enjoyed the sparrow my cat caught the other day, and we all enjoyed the wood pigeon he brought in last year. Usually he's too mean to share though...

In reply to nufkin:

If it's your job for a while, perhaps you can't be too emotional about it?

If one eats meat I think suffering is possibly the thing to be emotional about, rather than the killing, which is a foregone conclusion.

In reply to nufkin: Or maybe it's both?

I don't suppose there's a reason it shouldn't be...

In reply to Kemics:

I am a vegetarian but don't have a problem with people killing wild animals to eat them, with a few provisos. In fact I think every carnivore should kill an animal and eat it at least once in their life to ensure they understand what eating meat entails.

Rabbits and pigeons live better lives than many animals bred for meat and if killed properly know nothing about it. In some ways therefore you could argue that it was preferable to eat wild animals that had been humanely killed.

In reply to Removed User: I guess you could argue that breeding animals for food gives animals a life which wouldn't have had one otherwise, and killing wild animals is wrong because it's stopping animals from living which would still be alive.

In reply to Kemics:



No certainly not for that reason. I shoot and fish and my eldest lad shot his first rabbit aged 13 ish, he didn't have it in him to gut and cook it as many people find out when they do it for the first time, thats fine. Taking a life is serious shit and you have to have the correct mental attitude to do it. I won't kill unless its for the table, its akin to pure on-sight ethics! We aren't medieval where we have to collect our own food. Still eat meat but let others do the nasty parts for you. No big deal.
Fresh rod caught Bass 2 hours out of the sea or a rabbit quartered and BBQ'd the same day as being shot really makes you question shop bought meat and fish though

In reply to Removed User: I'm not out to argue by the way, just thinking aloud. ()

In reply to Kemics:

How do you manage that?

In reply to Timmd:

Is the life worth living though if it is one of captivity and denial of freedom? Animals are meat, meat is free if you go and get it yourself, the whole breed for food argument seems like it was invented by the supermarkets.
Interesting thread.

In reply to Removed User:

Thats a great statement

In reply to blanchie14c:

In reply to Eric9Points:
>
> I am a vegetarian but don't have a problem with people killing wild animals to eat them, with a few provisos. In fact I think every carnivore should kill an animal and eat it at least once in their life to ensure they understand what eating meat entails.

Thats a great statement
...

Seconded.

In reply to Kemics:

I enjoy hunting Beaver.

In reply to blanchie14c:

That's what I was wondering, i'd say probably not. It could be worth living if the meat is free range (and organic?) and lived happily/naturally before it died though?

Somebody recently mentioned to a vegetarian friend that lambs have amongst the best lives of animals bred for meat. They were talking about the lambs in the fields around Edale at the time I think, Peak District lambs seem to just potter about.

In reply to Milesy: Have you any idea what kind of life a supermarket chicken has? A rabbit can have a fair amount of meat and the fact you could shoot a couple of hundred woodies in aday and not even put a dent in the population validates it for me. Obviously I am pro hunting and shooting.

In reply to mark s:

Mine is 'if it's brown, it's down'

In reply to Timmd:

Yes fair point, I wonder what the % of battery vs free range in the UK is?
Its certainly a topic for a debating club, either side of the argument is valid

In reply to blanchie14c: But thats just pulling in a mackerel..

Killing a mammal is different..

Not sure I could ever pull a trigger on a deer.. I like the idea of stalking a wild beast through the islands.. but to shoot it? Would rather shoot a great picture.

But I do love venison.... I know..

In reply to IainRUK: Its a difficult choice to make, perhaps thats the key? Growing up, guns, butchering, gutting fish, pigeon pate etc were all everyday things that when on around me, programmed into my eraly DNA perhaps so not something you can just choose to do - "today, I'm going to shoot and eat an animal" type of thing

In reply to Kemics:

If you do learn to shoot well so you get as clean a kill as possible. It's an education to see the reality of where meat comes from when you prep a bird or rabbit from kill to eating it rather than getting it neatly packaged from a supermarket shelf.

In reply to Kemics:

I used to hunt and I don't anymore.

It isn't an ethical decision (as I have nothing against hunting), its an emotional one (I don't like killing things).

In reply to the weegy:


That's a reasonable point from the point of view of the species as a whole, but it still means each individual is being robbed of the life it only gets one go at.

As before, it's not really a criticism, just a way of looking at things. I don't really object to hunting and eating animals, but I do kind of feel that killing something should be done as well as possible, and with an amount of sadness.

In reply to Kemics: If you want to shoot something, use a camera. All else is just willful destruction.

In reply to Kemics:

Have you asked yourself why you are doing this?

Is it because you need food? If so what's the problem with going to a butcher?

Is it because you want to control pests/vermin? If so, why this sudden decision to do so, as from your post it doesn't appear that this something you normally do?

Is it because it sounds like a fun day out with a mate? If so, be honest with your self and ask if you feel it's morally right to obtain pleasure from hunting/killing? Only you can answer that.

In reply to Kemics:

I went rabbit shooting for the first time last week with a scoped rifle (no idea what type, bullets were about 12mm long 5mm diameter).

I was a bit unsure at first but reasoned with myself we were doing the farmer a favour by ridding him of pests. And the rabbits were being fed to the dog, who would over wise be eating rabbits from the other end of the country bred and killed by pedigree chum.

I may have one for myself next time as I've not tried rabbit yet.

And as for enjoyment I really did enjoy it. It's not a sadistic pleasure in killing but more a satisfaction of doing something that's really quite difficult.

One of my shots wasn't clean, went through the chest rather than the head. As with all the others straight after the shot we went up to it to check it was dead. As it wasn't my mate "judo chopped" it breaking it's neck. It was dead less than 30 seconds after being shot.

I will go again, killing isn't exactly pleasant, but I need to feel more in touch with the way of things rather than the sanitised version of life where meat magically appears on the shelf with no history attached.

In reply to ledifer:

other* wise

In reply to Kemics: https://www.youtube.com/user/HuntersVermin have a look at this guy's youtube channel, he gives really good advice, shows you how to prepare rabbits for cooking as well. I would get a lot of target practice in before you go anywhere near live quarry though, get used to shooting at different distances etc.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Hmmm... You might not do it for fun. You might do it in order to eat meat from an animal that has enjoyed a free life, rather than being shut in a cage for its lifetime, pumped full of chemicals.

In reply to Kemics: You can't eat meat and then carp about people going shooting (animals that are for eating)

It's a good day out and more of a challenge than clays - and you get a good few feeds as well, its win, win, win

In reply to Timmd:

They might get killed by other animals and eaten? After all, a rabbit has 1-3 litters of around 5 young per litter over the 15 years of its life. That is 150 baby rabbits in its lifetime, of which, in order to keep a stable population, 148 need to die, and go to feed other animals (foxes, ants, worms).

Wildlife is about having far too many young, and most of them dying young, going into the food chain. The idea of things living until a ripe old age is pretty strange, when it comes to a 'natural' way of living.

In reply to the weegy:


You hunt.... POOS!!!???

In reply to tlm:
>

Nice generalisation... but wrong.. different species have different life histories.. different levels of parental investment. But old age isn't as rare as people thought and small litters are very common. Look at the sharks for one.

In reply to IainRUK:

But no species only has 2 offspring in its lifetime, does it? I wasn't meaning that all animals have vast levels of waste, but even humans used to have 10 or so kids and 8 of them would die until relatively recently.