UKC

Hi folks,

I'm after a little bit of advice re a new purchase.

I've got a set of 4CU cams (1.5, 2.5 and 3.5), but often find myself wanting inbetween sizes, so I'm off to the shops.

I like the 4CUs, mainly for the single finger removal, and the double sling, so I am tempted to get the 1, 2, 3 set to complement my existing ones, especially as the price is good. But before I do, I thought I'd at least review other options.

Since I bought the 4CUs DMM have brought out the Demons. Is there any technical advantage / disadvantage to having the single stem version instead of the U stem? Or is it just a personal preference?

Also any other advice / suggestions welcome.

Thanks.

In reply to AndyPagett:
The twin stem design of the 4CU doesn't work as well in short vertical slots as it can twist the stems if loaded, and once properly twisted they will never get back their original shape. Generally the 4CU design isn't quite as robust, as it doesn't take much twisting of the stems and trigger wires for the motion to be sub par. Also if you are using the lengthened sling its not quite as strong as the demons (I would also wonder how having a worn sling may further effect this). Also once the cams get old and the trigger wires and stems aren't quite as prestene the cam lobes do not operate as independently as a single stem cam - to demonstrate this get a few old 4CU's retract the lobes fully and manually hold two of the lobes on one side in and let go of the trigger, you'll see the other lobes likely won't fully open out and / or are slow to do so.

However on the plus side of the 4CU the head widths are generally narrower - ignore the various websites that claim they are not, its rarely the area where the stem joins the axel that limits placement on 4CU's and also in shallow vertical cracks it doesn't matter if the outer stem is sticking out of the crack. They are also very light. And on the needles sports site you can get 3 delivered for 28.50 each., although Demons at outside are now £33 ea for 3.

I have a full set of dragons and 4CU 1,2,3 - the 4CU's complement these very well primarily because of the narrower head width and different lobe config for fitting different shaped cracks.

I don't think it matters too much which you buy, the Demons and 4CU's use the same lobes so the sizes are identical. I would personally keep with the 4CU's at size 1.5 and under because of the narrower head width, but I think above this size you'd probably find the demons a bit more robust, slightly slicker as they get older and just as functional and worth the extra £4:50 ea

In reply to AndyPagett:

You can argue that there are, but I think for most people at the end of the day personal preference of price are as important. For example if I could afford 5 double stem 4CUs but only 3 single stem Demons, I'd go for the four just because its nice to have four runners than three! If they are same price, go for the ones you think look prettiest or feel nicest.

I had a rack of 4CUs for years before I got twin axle cams to review for UKC, and the 4CUs are great - hard wearing, light, neat to rack. Can't go wrong with them I reckon.

In reply to TobyA:

One of us is missing something here, and it's not me!

In reply to TobyA:
As mentioned Demons and 4CU's are nearly he same price now for every 6 Demons you get an extra 4CU.

Regarding being hard wearing. I've seen quite a few totalled 4CU's more than other types of cam, primarily as the stems can be a little prone to twisting and once properly twisted they don't straighten enough that the trigger works properly. Also as mentioned once old - the lobes often don't operate fully independently (my dual stem quad cams also suffered from this despite being quite a different trigger design), retract the lobes and hold the lobes on one side in as you let go of the trigger, you'll see the motion on the free lobes is often not optimal.

That said I think they are value for the price and do offer characteristics which make them desirable to complement a rack of single stem cams.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I've got quadcams but their trigger design makes it harder to pull just on one set of lobes.

Maybe I'm very gentle on my gear - I don't think so; I fall off plenty and am no lightweight - but my 4CUs lasted very well. The only cam I've ever broken was a flex friend and it was just the spring that broke after years of hard use.

In reply to TobyA:
Yeah I think the HB cams (flexfit and quad cams) are both a bit prone to the springs going I've lost a few this way.

"I've got quadcams but their trigger design makes it harder to pull just on one set of lobes."

I wasn't talking about the ability to manually retract the different sides of the cam, although I can't see this being much better on the 4CU, also I don't find this is necessary as generally you just retract to the smallest width and open from there.

My point is regarding the independent motion of the cam lobes. Ideally if one side of the cams lobes (ie one opposing pair of lobes) are retracted the other side should be free to open out when the trigger is released, however on the dual stem cams I've tried (quadcams and 4cu's) once the cams get a few years old the lobes have a tendency to not operate as independently any more (try the test I outlined in above message).

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Mine are in England, so can't check now, but I've found washing and WD40 once in a while has kept everything working smoothly - smoothly enough for it never to be a problem with climbing with them anyway FWIW.

In reply to AndyPagett: I'm a big fan of 4CUs, and they make up most of my rack. If you're buying three, then I'd recommend buying in a set from Joe Browns.

3x4CUs are £89
3x Demon are £115
3x Dragons are £120

If you're after value for money the the 4CUs are a no brainer between 1.5 and 3.5

The 4CU head's are a bit too wide for my liking at smaller sizes.
The size 6 Dragon which is the equivalent of the 4 in 4CUs give a much bigger expansion range.

I've never seen the point of the demons. If you like them, then WC helium friends seem a better cam in that style/design of cam.

If you're not strapped for cash, then three dragons would make a good investment.

With regards to single vs double stems, IMO single are better for smaller cams as the added flexibility can reduce walking/torquing peak force in a fall.

As you mention placing/removing single stemmed cams is more awkward in some situations:

2 vs 1 finger needed on the trigger.
Harder to palm (although the Demon/Dragon stems are easier than other brands).
Harder to remove, if you/your leader gets them really stuck. (4CUs and TCU triggers can easily be persuaded to stay open using a range of items).

In reply to TobyA:
yeah lubing up the axels, cables and stems doesn't fix the albeit minor issue. Certainly in most placements it doesn't make any difference anyway - it is one to watch out for though if one side of the cam is much more retracted in the placement than the other especially if previously noted that cam isn't working as optimally as it should be.

Out of interest have you ever noticed on any make of cams that horizontal cracks can manipulate the trigger bar in such a way some of the cam lobes retract out of contact with the rock when the placement is pull tested for a downward load? This can occur when the trigger bar is close to the lip of the crack.

In reply to mmmhumous:
As already mentioned:

3 4CU from needlesports is 85.47
3 Demons from outside is 99.99 (Smaller sizes)

Also I'd like to pick you up on your point of 4 cu head width being too wide under size 1.5. Actually for most placements its NARROWER than the dragons. The pivots on the 4CU where the stem meets the axle very often don't actually limit placement yet they have been included in the head width measurement, also generally the actual cam lobes on the 4CUs are much more compact / bunched together than the dragons (ie if you measure the head width across the lobes rather than from the pivot ends)

If you take the example of a shallow vertical crack, you only need to measure the head width of the 4cu from the pivot at one end to the last lobe (even then quite often the back pivot will just fit in to the back of the crack for free as it narrows), a dragon the head width is the start of the first lobe to the end of the last lobe in all placements.

Also quite often in placements you get small pods or areas of the crack where a tight cluster of lobes the 4CU has fits much better than the wider bunch of lobes on a dragon.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I meant vs other cams (i.e. 3CUs, mastercams, totems zeros etc) my smallest 4cu is a 1.75. below that I use a mix of the above.

In reply to mmmhumous:
Personally I think the cut off for micro cams is a bit lower than a 1.5 4CU more like 0.5 4CU. That said if you compare the WC zero (size 6) to the 0.5 4CU I bet my points regarding head width still hold. The actual cams will be less wide apart on the 4cu than the zero (if you don't measure the pivots) and in many placements this will make the 4cu effectively narrower! admittedly in the lower two sizes of 4CU the advantage is lost somewhat as the pivots are not much smaller than the retracted cam lobes.

In reply to AndyPagett:

Thanks for some comprehensive replies.

Having reviewed the various points for and against the 4CUs I have decided that taking in to account my level / amount of climbing versus budget, I'll go with the set of 1, 2, 3 4CUs and save myself £15 over the Demons. My current set of half sizes are a few years old now, but don't seem to have lost any function, so I don't think I need the extra durability that the Demons might offer. Also by getting them from needlesports, I can have the matching colour coded krabs for a fiver each which is a nice bonus

I note mmmhumous's comment about the larger size though and if I feel that I need something bigger than my current 4CU 3.5, I'll probably get the Dragon 6 for the extra range.

At the bottom end of the range I think I'd also probably go for a single stem - I seem to have it in my head that this design would be better in vertical cracks due to the shearing force versus surface area in contact with the rock.

In reply to AndyPagett:

Have you looked at WC tech Friends? Since the heliums have come out the old tech friends have come down in price a lot and their sizes (and colours) are the same as the 4CU's. I have a miz of the two and haven't really noticed a huge difference although I have found that having a mix of single and double stemmed cams helps tell them apart.

In reply to AndyPagett:

Would a mix of 4CU's, Heliums & Demons be good?

Can get 3 x 4CU's for £85.50 atm, and Heliums and Demons for £35 & £36 a piece currently.

Would be my first cams,so i was thinking maybe 1,2 & 3 in 4CUs,and then some of the single-stems to fit around the trio of 4CU's...

Theres also some cheap(ish) Zeros available in the area,would they be a good shout for the smaller end?

In reply to AndyPagett:

Actually,looking at ranges.. I might go for 4CU in 1, 1.5 and 2, then a Helium in 3. As that seems to give a good range with a decent amount of overlap.

What would you say is a good shout in sizes under 4CU 1 and above Helium 3?