In reply to maisie:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> Another diversionary tactic: focussing on 'lost tax' from the minimum wage economy. It's a tiny amount, relatively speaking: somebody on minimum wage has a fairly low direct tax burden, and much of the reversion of wealth back to the state comes in indirect taxes for services, goods etc - which would be clawed back from illegal immigrants anyway.
Not a diversionary tactic, it was a mention in passing of another piece of the jigsaw. The important point is that service industries staffed by illegal labour are now a wildly inappropriate feature of our economy, and that policies should be in place to address this. What we want is businesses operating within the law, providing jobs, making a contribution. Illegal employment undermines every element of this.
> But in obsessing on this score, we can deflect attention away from the astonishing amounts of money that are withheld in tax avoidance schemes.
No one is obsessing about the tax implications, the tax avoidance point is irrelevant (diversionary even?).
> And in a struggling economy, the government aren't too worried about low-end jobs for the Brits: what they want is continuation of service, and an ability to provide the bread and circuses which the masses want. The first relies on low-wage operatives (the lower the better) and the second on, err, low-wage operatives.
I'm not sure I agree. In terms of GDP, you're absolutely right, but there's more to a recession than that. In the parlance of our times, we need jobs for dolescum in order to get the feckless and lazy back into work and to reduce the welfare bill. Illegal employment militates against this.
> Don't confuse my statements with support for illegal immigration: it's based entirely on the abuse of power and greed, and those at the heart of it are the ones who suffer the most.
We agree on that.
>
> Putting signs on lorries is just pandering to xenophobia. Helping people to go home sounds like a laudable aim, but what happens when they get there? So why would they voluntarily go?
I'm not so sure about the effectiveness issue, although I very much doubt that mildly threatening billboards being towed around is the best way. Back in the 2000s, the govt did manage to reduce asylum applications by changing perceptions through exactly this type of policy. And here we're not talking about asylum, we have no reason to believe that back home people are anything other than poor, which they are here.
> Wouldn't it be more useful if the government took a more conversational, quiet approach with the grass roots organisations serving the ethnicities that they feel are at the centre of the issue? Or reducing the incentives to come over by clobbering those at the top of the chains?
Yes it would. But having worked in government for 10 years this kind of idealism was long since beaten out of me. Back in the real world, civil servants and ministers have to come up with policies that achieve a number of aims at the same time. And this is the Tories we're talking about: having a little bit of useful substance behind the pathetic, shallow political grandstanding for the thickie-masses (I'm referring to the assisted return element of the policy) is quite refreshing. Uplifting, almost.
> Painting up some signs for public display won't make people go home; but it will help to make acceptable some pretty nasty opinions - and save us the bother of thinking things through for ourselves.
It might make some people go home, and I agree the tone is politically motivated and slightly depressing. But I do think it's a legitimate message: do not work here illegally, we will chuck you out (if we can, really we'd rather you just left because that's much cheaper).
> I'm not against your opinions - if I disagree with painting signs on lorries, it doesn't mean I'm pro- illegal immigration; if I think that much of the low end economy depends on illegal workers, it doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with it. But I feel we miss the point, pretty much all the time.
And I'm not against yours. Usually when anyone who makes sensible, informed, well-argued points, I'll agree in principle but might take a slightly different slant.