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Racking -gate out or in?

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 lordyosch 24 Jul 2013
I'm new to leading and I'm still very much experimenting with how to arrange my gear.

One thing I've noticed is that some people rack their gear with the krab gates towards their body and others with the gate facing out.

I've tried both and find 'gate in' easier to get the gear off my harness. Using a massive feat of logic I conclude that 'gate out' is therefore more secure as its harder to get the stuff off.

Am I right or talking twaddle? Is it really just personal preference?

Jay
 stonemaster 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Yes.... Good luck.
 Oceanrower 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Whatever you want. There is no "right" way.
 martinph78 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:
> Is it really just personal preference?

Yes
andic 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Just learn how your partner likes it, its him you'll be racking up and vice versa
 Rachel Slater 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Am I the only one that does both?
 knighty 24 Jul 2013
In reply to Rachel Slater:

You are not the only one! I find it easier to go gate out on my left hand side and gate in on my right.
 James Oswald 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:
When I started climbing I racked GI and that worked fine. But then a friend convinced me that racking GO is superior because the gate's less likely to become tangled in clothes. Also, if you rack GO you can wires onto snapgates on your harness easily.
I changed to GO and I prefer it.
 Owen W-G 24 Jul 2013
In reply to James Oswald:

Gate in, both sides. Always have done, always will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided.
 martinph78 24 Jul 2013
In reply to andic: Unless your partner doesn't lead...
 oliverk 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I prefer gate-in because it seems easier to take the gear off your harness quickly to place it. Putting it back is normally less important as if pumped you can just clip it anywhere for the time-being.

However gate-out looks neater, perhaps it's better if you get used to it.
Wiley Coyote2 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I do GO but both my regular partners do GI, which they claim is better. I don't think it makes much difference as long as you're consistent.
 martinph78 24 Jul 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
>
> Gate out, both sides. Always have done, always will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided.

Corrected that for you
Removed User 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Gate in or it's guaranteed death on a stick.
 stonemaster 24 Jul 2013
In reply to oliverk:
>
> However gate-out looks neater,

What???!! How??!!

OP lordyosch 24 Jul 2013
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to lordyosch) Gate in or it's guaranteed death on a stick.

Why so?
 Calder 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Gate out is what I do and as such is THE correct way to do it.
ice.solo 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

im a random racker
 stonemaster 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
> [...]
>
> Why so?

Who knows... But, he is Hardonicus and is always right except when he is wrong
 Kid Spatula 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I just clip things to my harness at random.
 GrahamD 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Out for me, In for my regular partner. Either way works provided you are consistent
 deanstonmassif 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I find gate in easier when I'm pumped (which is most of the time these days on account of infrequent climbing activity). Doesn't require use of thumb or twisting of wrist to get the krab off, just fingers and palm.

Mind, the krab nose can sometimes snag clothing but that is when racking rather than when taking gear off, so it isn't critical.

A more contentious issue that you haven't touched upon is whether to rack nuts and pro on the same hangers/side to extenders. Do you go nuts right/extenders left? nuts in front of friends? Hexes out front or dangling a derriere? Slings rambo-style or twisted and clipped?........

Probably an entirely new thread there. Yes, it's quiet at work today .....
 Bobling 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Whaaaat?

Everyone I can recall who I have climbed with has been a GO, whereas I am a GI. I thought I was a persecuted minority until I saw this thread and realised there were lots of us. Stand together my brothers and sisters and we will never be overcome!
 dutybooty 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Random racker.
 andrewmc 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Clipped facing forwards onto the belt loops of your fluorescent leggings is the ONLY way.
 Milesy 24 Jul 2013
I find it easier to unclip from my harness with the gate in the way, but if my gear loops are full I find it easier when putting back on the harness gate out, as I can just put my hand between a couple of bits of gear and then up and clip, rather than trying to force space from the top.... if that makes sense.
 Hannes 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Gate out when I set off on a lead but gate in while seconding or returning gear to the gear loops.
In reply to lordyosch:

Gate out. That way I can be sure they're actually clipped to the gear loops (sometimes I pull each piece away from the harness before releasing the gate to double check this if I'm somewhere that dropping something would be costly) and not just snagged on my t-shirt. It's also much harder to mis-clip things that way round.

Never trust any gate-inners with your precious gear. They'll only drop it in the sea...
 Aigen 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: this is difficult to explain but here goes. You should rack with gate out. When you rack with gate in its can happen that you can accidentally lift up a wire with the index finger. when you unclip the biner the wire you lifted up will then fall off the biner on the ground. this is much harder to do if you rack out, cause its hard for your thumb to accidentally pick up a single wire.
 GridNorth 24 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics: I agree it's easier to detect that the gate has closed if you clip gate out. It is also easier to take wires from the karabiner individually, not that I ever do, which would be nye on impossible gate in.
 galpinos 24 Jul 2013
In reply to oliverk:
> However gate-out looks neater, perhaps it's better if you get used to it.

This is always my main concern when pumped out of my mind and scrabbling for that vital bit of gear, "Does my rack look neat on my harness?"

GI for me.
 Ann S 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

All nut crabs are defo GO. Don't think I'm that fussed about the hexes and cams on my left side.
 GridNorth 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch: After thinking about this I have realised that although I am firmly in the gate out camp on the harness, when I use a bandolier I clip gate in on the bandolier.
 jimtitt 24 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to lordyosch) After thinking about this I have realised that although I am firmly in the gate out camp on the harness, when I use a bandolier I clip gate in on the bandolier.

Me too, except when I put it on the wrong way.

 Rick Graham 24 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to lordyosch) After thinking about this I have realised that although I am firmly in the gate out camp on the harness, when I use a bandolier I clip gate in on the bandolier.

Gates in.
Wires on bandolier.
Cams in size order on harness.

You can get the correct size wire off and in the rock quickly.
Can reach with either hand to get gear off harness even if you cannot look.

Quick efficient gear placement can take two E grades off a route.

Peter and me often have a quiet laugh about how well so and so climbs for a gate outer.
In reply to Rick Graham:

I don't understand bandoliers. I hate them, they just flap around and get in the way.

I also have no idea how your racking system is any better than any other, as long as you know where everything is. The right size cam can still only be in one place, so you can never stop it sometimes being on the wrong side.
 Rick Graham 24 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Rick Graham)
Its what works best for you.
> I don't understand bandoliers. I hate them, they just flap around and get in the way.
After trying various types I now use for UK trad an 8mm cord sling tied with an overhand knot.
> I also have no idea how your racking system is any better than any other, as long as you know where everything is. The right size cam can still only be in one place, so you can never stop it sometimes being on the wrong side.
If its awkward you can reach with the "wrong" hand for the cams round the front or back.
 Michael Gordon 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Gate in is definitely the best way.
 GridNorth 24 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics: I only use a bandolier when I'm on a multi-pitch climb which is near my limit and I don't know what to expect. In Morocco for example bigger cams and hexes are very useful. I wouldn't normally carry them so I supplement what I would consider to be my "standard" rack, which fits neatly and easily on my harness, by using a bandolier for this additional kit. I don't like big cams and hexes swinging around my knees either, with a bandolier I can get it behind my back until such time as I need it.
 Rick Graham 24 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

US climbers use a bandolier to get the gear on the best side for a corner crack, off width etc
 Rick Graham 24 Jul 2013
In reply to cliff shasby:

I though it was Yorkshire men who did not mince their words.

Know what you mean.
 Jimbo C 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I must be tired, I had to really think to remember which way I go. I almost got my harness out to check. Gate in, both sides. Just seems easier to get to for me.

To those who rack gate in one side and gate out the other.. you're just weird.
 Jimbo C 24 Jul 2013
In reply to Aigen:
> When you rack with gate in its can happen that you can accidentally lift up a wire with the index finger. when you unclip the biner the wire you lifted up will then fall off the biner on the ground.

A valid point, I have done that once. Only once mind you, and I must have reached for my nuts over 1000 times whilst climbing, hu huh.
 cliff shasby 24 Jul 2013
In reply to duchessofmalfi: thankyou....
 JamButty 24 Jul 2013
In reply to stonemaster:
> (In reply to lordyosch)
> [...]
>
> Who knows... But, he is Hardonicus and is always right except when he is wrong

GO for me, so I'm interested to know why its going to kill me after all these years
needvert 24 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

GO, though not sure why. Racking crabs are heliums so spine hangs close to gear loop.
 Martin Bennett 24 Jul 2013
In reply to andic:
> (In reply to lordyosch)
>
> Just learn how your partner likes it, its him you'll be racking up and vice versa

What? You rack up for your partner? Why on Earth would you do that, or he or she require you to?

Me, wires and cams gate in on front loops R & L respectively; quickdraws gate out on back loops R & L. I find this avoids C Shasby's un-natural wrist twisting. I want to enjoy using a bandolier but each time I try it I just don't.
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

At least he gives a profile , such that one can attempt to make a reasoned judgement.
You, on the other hand......

ps: GO for me, but each to their own.

pps: aren't a good few posts made in a humorous vein?
In reply to Rick Graham:

> If its awkward you can reach with the "wrong" hand for the cams round the front or back.

But you can do that with any racking system!
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics) I only use a bandolier when I'm on a multi-pitch climb which is near my limit and I don't know what to expect. In Morocco for example bigger cams and hexes are very useful. I wouldn't normally carry them so I supplement what I would consider to be my "standard" rack, which fits neatly and easily on my harness, by using a bandolier for this additional kit. I don't like big cams and hexes swinging around my knees either, with a bandolier I can get it behind my back until such time as I need it.

I can't think of anything worse than big hexes and cams swinging around off a bandolier (how long are your tapes/short are your thighs if they are anywhere near your knees when you rack them on your gear loops?). My problem is that no matter how hard I try I can't persuade anything on a bandolier to stay behind my back, it just swings round and starts getting in the way. Perhaps it's my textbook smooth climbing style...
 Trangia 25 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

I rack gate in about 50% on each side, but usually finish up using up using more from one side leaving it awkward to reach the others when high up on the climb - I never seem to be able to get the distribution right to start with.
 TimB 25 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Depends on the shape of harness loops. To me, krabs seem to hang better 'gate out' on loops that stick up (as on my current BD harness) and better 'gate in' on shaped plastic loops that protrude out and down (like the Petzl ones).

Although this
> I've tried both and find 'gate in' easier to get the gear off my harness. Using a massive feat of logic I conclude that 'gate out' is therefore more secure as its harder to get the stuff off.

Suggests that you don't trust yourself to have it the easiest way round, so please reverse what I've typed above
 GridNorth 25 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics: I know what you mean. I've bought DMM Torque nuts and I must admit they are much better for racking. Bandoliers can be a hassle but a the other thing, with what I would consider to be a full rack, is that I struggle to get it on the gear loops and if I do it just feels like too much. A bandolier spreads the load.
 GrahamD 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Gate in is definitely the best way.

Gate out is definately the best way
 GrahamD 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

....Or maybe its just preference ?
 duchessofmalfi 25 Jul 2013
In reply to ade sheffield:

Are you trying to say the measure of a man should be his CV rather than his actions?

PS GO at the bottom, random by the top
 Mr. Lee 25 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Gate always out for me. Makes it virtually impossible to lose gear whilst unclipping the crab from my harness as I am grabbing the wires with my fingers as I open the gate with my thumb. Helpful with winter climbing I find as gloves reduce dexterity and sometimes it's harder to view my harness rack if in some cramped winter chimney.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
> (In reply to andic)
> [...]
>
> What? You rack up for your partner? Why on Earth would you do that, or he or she require you to?
>

I was wondering that, but when nobody else queried it I thought I must just be weird in racking up for myself.
 steveriley 25 Jul 2013
More amusing is the disparity between a nice orderly system that you start with and the mess at the top of a long pitch, where you've consistently reached for the wrong gear and been on the limit placing stuff on rock and replacing on your rack
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to James Oswald:

I had exactly the same experience. And when you think about the physical movement your arm goes through, GO is the less awkward, and therefore IMO is the correct way.

One thing I learnt about racking, however you do it; if you're not putting things back on the same loop that you took them from when you're in a hurry, your racking system probably isn't working for you. I guess the same could be said for GI/GO.

I always find racking QDs on front harness loops rather an odd concept - if they're basically all the same why do you need to see them, unlike cams and wires which are best kept in view for ease of selection. Where as QDs can pretty much be selected blind.
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:

And in addition to the GI/GO debate, when selecting and removing gear in a rush GI (and therefore an upward movement) you can snag and lift the gear loop with the krab nose. This faff is negated with GO clipping, because it's a downward pull to remove the krab, and you cannot pull a gearloop down because they are already hanging.

If that makes sense...

My point is, I've used both, and for tangible reasons (less faff, less awkward arm movement, less likely to snag clothing, visibility of closed gates, and krabs hanging from spine rather than nose)GO is better.

So those of you who don't comply, you'd all better convert now, because when I'm running the BMC GI rackers will have thier right hand cut off ;0)
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

In my experience the stuff on the bandolier swings behind you on overhanging stuff (making it hard to get the gear) and in front of you on slabby stuff (making it get in the way).

Despite this I tend to use the bandolier for quickdraws. Don't know how others manage to fit everything on the gear loops to be honest!
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Stop talking about bandoliers - they're repulsive! ;0)
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:
> (In reply to Merlin)
>
> less faff, less awkward arm movement,
>

I'll give you the rest but those are reasons why gate in is better.

 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> Stop talking about bandoliers - they're repulsive! ;0)

They're also handy for swapping the gear over quickly when not much has been placed on the previous pitch.

 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Explain?
In reply to lordyosch: I'll try GO and GI this weekend to see what you're all talking about. Myself,usually i just shove all my gear in my pockets as it's more challenging!
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to mcphillipsa391:

Interestingly enough also, I've just search for some photos of climbers who you'd probably suggest are "pro" or "full time" and of those I came accross, all showed gear racked GO.

That alone is no reason to do it, but those with extensive experience must have a reason.
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> Explain?

Well you just hand the bandolier to your partner rather than having to give them each bit of gear individually.
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Ref GI?
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:

Huh?
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:
> (In reply to mcphillipsa391)
>
> Interestingly enough also, I've just search for some photos of climbers who you'd probably suggest are "pro" or "full time" and of those I came accross, all showed gear racked GO.
>
> That alone is no reason to do it, but those with extensive experience must have a reason.

I imagine that's just the way they've always done it - I don't think experience comes into it.
 knighty 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
>
> ..Don't know how others manage to fit everything on the gear loops to be honest!

Use Yosemite racking. I started doing this recently and it works well.

But do you clip the Yosemite racked draws gate out or gate in?! :P
 Merlin 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Unlikely.
In reply to knighty:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
> [...]
>
> Use Yosemite racking. I started doing this recently and it works well.
>
> But do you clip the Yosemite racked draws gate out or gate in?! :P

I usually carry way, waaaay to much stuff with me (you know, 20 quickdraws, 40 nuts, 10 cams, that sort of thing) and I've never had a problem fitting it all onto 4 gear loops without resorting to Yosemite racking. Except for screwgates. I usually clip an HMS to a back gear loop for building the belay and often rack a couple of smaller screwgates on it just in case.

Is this the coolest UKC thread ever?
 Michael Gordon 25 Jul 2013
In reply to Merlin:

Why? I doubt they analyse the way they rack any more than many here!
 Robert Durran 27 Jul 2013
In reply to knighty:
> (In reply to Rachel Slater)
>
> You are not the only one! I find it easier to go gate out on my left hand side and gate in on my right.

Vice versa for me!

rufus stone 27 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Get on something really easy where can put lots of pro, rack both and see which side feels more natural. Then jump on something that makes your palms all sweaty and see if you were right.

PS I'm GI, works for me
 Katie86 27 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

There is no right way and it doesn't really matter unless you climbing partner does it a different way to you, your using a bandolier and your on a multipitch route - then it's just annoying!
 Skip 27 Jul 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Never thought about it until today, due to this topic. Seems, at least today, i am "gate out". Maybe different on another day.
 paulerussell 31 Jul 2013
In reply to Aigen: I've done the same thing, which is when I switched to GO. You also know you haven't clipped your belt loop, T-shirt or thin air when replacing it on your harness.
In reply to Merlin:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
>
> I had exactly the same experience. And when you think about the physical movement your arm goes through, GO is the less awkward, and therefore IMO is the correct way.
>
> One thing I learnt about racking, however you do it; if you're not putting things back on the same loop that you took them from when you're in a hurry, your racking system probably isn't working for you. I guess the same could be said for GI/GO.
>
> I always find racking QDs on front harness loops rather an odd concept - if they're basically all the same why do you need to see them, unlike cams and wires which are best kept in view for ease of selection. Where as QDs can pretty much be selected blind.

Ditto with the snagging clothes when GI so I swapped to GO. Once used to the downward motion to remove them, I found it as quick and easy to deploy them.
Also, personally I find when racked GO, they tend to remain so especially when sport climbing and doing slightly more dynamic moves, whereas when racked GI they would often rotate 180 and end up upside down and GO.
Merlin, I think the QD's in the front is probably a hang over from those of us that went from sport to trad and are simply creatures of habit when it comes to racking our QD's in the same position on our harnesses, but you are absolutely right makes no sense at all having them in front on a trad rack where they are taking up space that could be filled by pro that you would want to be able to eyeball.

 dave1 01 Aug 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

For God's sake! Haven't you got something better to think about?
Sorry, that was unkind, but it really doesn't matter, as long as it's OK for you. Carry on experimenting until you're happy one way or the other. Happy climbing!
 martinph78 01 Aug 2013
In reply to lordyosch: I reckon it's to do with how the carabiners hang. Gate out, the back of the crab is against the body, and most crabs are designed/shaped to be strongest/weighted in this way. So when loaded up with gear, or just hanging under their own weight, they'll sit neater against the body (as opposed to hanging out if racking gate in). Think about the flat back of the crab, or the pointy nose of the crab, which naturally makes more sense to have inwards?

I still don't care though, I do it the way I do because that's how I saw someone else do it and it works for me.
 Michael Gordon 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Martin1978:
> (In reply to lordyosch)
>
> I do it the way I do because that's how I saw someone else do it

I think that's the reason why practically everyone does it the way they do. It's nothing to do with having considered both and decided which way they thought was best.
 rgold 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

Put your hand by your side and and then behind you in a relaxed position and see what gate orientation it wants. You get gate in on the front loops and gate out on the rear loops. That's the way do it!

Gate out in front is especially awkward if you have to cross one hand over to unclip from the opposite side. And I don't believe for a second that gate in makes it easier to drop gear. When the gate is out, you have to invert the carabiner while unclipping so that nuts can just slide down the gate into space.

Personally, this is mostly moot, because I carry nuts and cams on a sling (a bandolier on your side of the pond), and only keep draws, carabiners, and belay gadget on the harness loops. Because of the lack of demand, I usually have two loops unused. I use the left rear loop for hanging a shell of some sort if the weather demands it, or in the summer when it is really hot and humid, I drape a bit of towel back there to mop my brow.
 Michael Gordon 02 Aug 2013
In reply to rgold:
> (In reply to Martin1978)
>
> And I don't believe for a second that gate in makes it easier to drop gear. When the gate is out, you have to invert the carabiner while unclipping so that nuts can just slide down the gate into space.
>

Yes, that's another reason why I don't like it!
 Jamie B 02 Aug 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

> Is it really just personal preference?

Of course not. Your way is stupid and mine is much better. Everybody should do it my way because I'm great and having looked at your logbook you're frankly not entitled to an opinion. Let's have a fight.

Welcome to UKC.

 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 03 Aug 2013
In reply to lordyosch: Its like belly buttons, some people are innies and other outies.

Stick with what feels right.
 Merlin 05 Aug 2013
In reply to lordyosch:

Great thread by the way lordyosch!

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