UKC

I dont wish to debate methods/pros and cons but a conversation today raised the issue of when this practice first started. I recall seeing it used for the first time in the Chamonix area by a French climber. He had the prusik above his abseil device as was usual to begin with (I think). I think this was perhaps late 70's. Anyone recall seeing it used in the past and better my memory.
Dave

In reply to David Smith:

Time frame fits with my memory, as does having the prussic above the ab device. I think now it is the done thing to extend the ab device on a short sling and then put the prussic etc below. This makes sense, but is extra faff so I often use the old fashioned method, if I'm being lazy.

In reply to top cat: Yes below is standard now with various ways of arranging this - all well covered in other discussions and text books. My interest was as the result of a "conversation" with a friend about when the practice developed. Nowadays new ways of doing things spread very rapidly via the use of the internet as well as through climbers seeing others use techniques. In the past the process was more gradual.
Thanks for responding.

In reply to David Smith:

Just had a look for the old copy of Blackshaw in the house but cannot find it.

I would not be surprised to find a mention in there.

A lot of the sixties climbers were pretty savvy, probably why they are still climbing today, we might have to ask Ted.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Just looked in my 3rd edition revised (1975) and the only uses of the prusik knot are for crevasse rescue and climbing a ‘standing’ rope, (not done an exhaustive search, mind). Your copy’s probably in Peter’s (tip) room. Send Jenny in!!

"we might have to ask Ted" - you're right, I think he did the proof reading.

Steve

Hi Steve

I have a theory he was the ghost writer.

Had a quick look in the tip and gave up.

In reply to David Smith:

Was first shown this at PYB Circa 1980.

I also started to develop the idea of passing a knot using a french prusick/autobloc. We were shown passing a knot using a round turn on a krab and wraps on the cord. on the course.

I couldn't get it (the autobloc) sorted on the day but soon after Nigel Shepherd and Bill Wayman had perfected it.

I like to thing I'd set the ball rolling on that one!

In reply to David Smith: In the U.S., the cavers were doing it before the technique jumped disciplines to climbers. I'm not a caver myself, but I had friends who did a lot of it and who were backing up their rappels with a prusik above the device in the '60's. Larry Penberthy (founder of MSR), published an article in Summit Magazine advocating locating the autoblock below the rap device in the 70's.

In reply to rgold: Per my earlier post, Blackshaw indicates a clear preference (and illustrates) the Penberthy knot which he says is 'claimed to be more effective than the prusik'.
Steve

In reply to rgold:

What exactly is the reason to prefer putting it below? Somehow more panic proof?

I still put it above because it is so convenient for climbing back up. Easier to release, and so on.

In reply to Erstwhile:

With the backup below the device, 90% of your weight is held by the device and not the knot itself. This makes the backup more reliable and should leave it easy to release.

I guess that panic resistance might be part of it as well - grabbing a knot above the device could stop it tightening on the rope. If you do that to a knot below the device, your grip alone could enough to arrest the fall even if it interfered with the knot.

In reply to rgold:

When did the first sit harness appear, allowing an abseil by non-classic means?

According to wikipedia, Franz Sticht patented his Sticht plate as the first mechanical rope brake in 1970. Did anyone who abseiled using an italian hitch on a karabiner, before 1970, use a prussic as back up as well? If not, the first use of the prussic as abseil back up probably came after 1970.

In reply to switch:
Well thought out.
I started climbing in 1968, very few sit harnesses about then ( or waistbelts even ) until the Whillans, early 70's.

The posh method of abseiling was to use a sling for your legs, rope through a krab and over your shoulder.

The classic abseil used only the rope.

It would be possible to use a prussik back up with a shoulder ab but very unlikely.

We were not smart enough to realise the advantages of a sit harness so probably did not think anybody would be so unlucky/stupid to let go of the rope.

In reply to switch:

People were rappelling with improvised "sit harnesses," sometimes called "Swiss seats," a very long time, probably 40 years, before sit harnesses showed up. And the Sticht plate was hardly the first "mechanical brake." The simplest Swiss seat was just a rope or webbing sling twisted into a figure-eight, with on leg in each circle of the eight and a carabiner clipped to the "X" in the middle of the eight. See http://cdn-www.trails.com/Cms/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/210/138926_Full.j... for a slightly fancier version using a longer sling, that was also in use. Gaston Rebuffat mentions the Swiss seat rappel in "Etoiles et Tempetes" in 1954, but it probably dates back to the 1930's.

Originally, the Swiss seat rappel just used a carabiner on the seat, after which the rope ran over the shoulder as in the Dulfersitz. I was still doing this in the early 1960's. But Pierre Allain had already introduced the "Descendeur Allain," which of course required a Swiss seat, in 1947, so at that time you already had a rudimentary sit harness and a mechanical brake. Sometime in the mid-sixties people in the U.S. started using brake bars and then carabiner brake rappels, which supplied all the friction without any contact with the body, and unlike the Descendeur Allain were in very common use. Once that happened, all the prussik backups could have been employed, and as I said probably were by cavers.

The first instance I've heard about (but perhaps an apocryphal story) of climbers using a prussik backup for rappelling was during the second ascent of the Nose by Robbins, Fitschen, Pratt and Frost in 1960. One reason this may have happened is that the climbers, who were on the wall for seven days, hauled all their stuff by prussiking up with it hanging from them. Getting all the stuff up a day's climbing required multiple rappels and prussiks, and it isn't too big a stretch to imagine them prussiking up with a pack, then rappelling down for the next pack and leaving the prussiks on the rope. The apocryphal story referred to involves Fitschen being saved by his prussiks when something went wrong on rappel.

In reply to David Smith: Contrary to popular opinion there were in fact sit harnesses around in the 60's. I remember seeing one probably around about 1965. I think it was called the "Davek" but they were only considered suitable for aid climbing.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

According to the history section of the Troll UK website http://www.trolluk.com/history ,

"At the same time [the early 60's], Tony Howard was involved in the design of one of Britain's first safety harness the Mark 1..."

In reply to rgold: I could be wrong but I believe that these were waist belts rather than harnesses with leg loops. You buckled the belt on then passed the rope round your waist through sewn loops to keep it in place. Apart from the "Davek" which I'm sure I remember seeing but may have the name wrong, the first sit harness I became aware of and certainly the first one considered suitable for free climbing was the Whillans.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Troll made the sit part of the harness seperate from the waist part from 2" webbing. There were two thread points at the front and I used a length of 8mm cord looped through these to abseil and then tied on incoporating the loop in a waist tie-in. They certainly were far better for both climbing in and sitting in than the Whillans which I´ve never owned and don´t want to!

In reply to jimtitt: In the 60's?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Tony Howard may be along shortly to tell us when.

Mid to late sixties sounds right for the Davek. It had two leg loops which would impress the ladies more than a pair of ron hills.

I remember using improvised seat slings for aid climbing in 1970, any more than 1 inch tape was considered unnecessary. It made a cows tail quite useful though my mentors preferred sitting in the etriers. We did not copy one whos home made etts snapped on him.

The Troll waist band was Pete Whillances favourite until the mid eighties.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: I couldnt say when exactly, and it never went into production, but Ron James experimented with ideas for a sit harness very early on.
Dave

In reply to Rick Graham:


And he took a few whippers on it too!

In reply to ewar woowar:

It sometimes did not matter which harness he used because he decked out.

In reply to Rick Graham:

That's also true!

In reply to Rick Graham:
You and Al Randall are right about the Davak as my old mate Dennis had one in the sixties and you could only buy them in blue as I tried to buy one in 1969 but could not get old of them . just to impress the ladies of coarse, ps yes ask Ted.

In reply to David Smith: Some of this may overlap with rgold amd others who posted while I was writing the following:

This in fact is an interesting and complicated question (at the risk of being a bore). The Karl Prusik knot itself dates to 1931 (though there may have been some precursors). First one needs to distinguish between its use as a blocking device on an ab, and when used for (re)mounting a rope notably in crevasse rescue (originally its main use). I am not concerned with the latter.

There is an interesting article in Off Belay 1976 re Chouinard's strong recommendation of putting on a prusik with which the author disagrees. The four who did the first "continuous" ascent of the Nose agreed always to use it and it saved Pratt's life when his rappel system went wrong. The writer's disagreement was a) that they could block if it got out of reach or b) if too loose could (and did) fuse the rope. That therefore leads to the issue of associated equipment and abseiling technique. When I started climbing in the Alps with a guide we used the classic abseil from 1962-65: after doing the Spigolo Giallo we descended on 30m raps on a bicoloured 60m rope. Equipment took a big step forward in 1966 with the advent of the belt (as opposed to direct tie on, or a hemp string waistline).This allowed two things: one to use crabs attached for friction in an abseil, second likewise in belaying, a fortiori with the additional use of a chest harness. That was furthered by the introduction of webbing shortly after so one could make a sit sling rather than a belt to join with the chest harness. The logical extension of that was the one piece harness: I had my first Whillans harness in 1971. The next element was the descendeur based on the closed figure of 8 principle (eg Clog) which were around by the mid 70s and could also be used in the same way as the Sticht plate for belaying as well as abseiling. The basics elements were complete by before 1977 at least with the Petzl Shunt which potentially replaced the prusik.

The diffusion of using a prusik or other locking device is a different issue and is essentially a matter of attitude. As shown above it was used in caving or as in Yosemite where recue was impossible. But if you look at my gallery p.1 "That ab again" on the Aiguilles Traverse you will note my partner's remark "we [i.e.Brits] didn't carry prussic loops on abs in those days [1980]." I am ashamed to say I still don't normally and I noted that I put one on for the first time when I went to Verdon with Simon Richardson in 1982 for the dreaded Lunabong abseil and closed my eyes until the prusik jammed! A couple of years earlier Simon had said he wouldn't climb with me unless I used a Sticht plate. With increasing safety consciousness and in most Trad rock climbing where speed is of no great consideration one can use all the safety devices one wants. But I note that a lot of experienced or professional climbers when abbing on loose ground or doing multiple long abs to get off a route simply use a bit of thin cord attached to the rope below the descendeur and fixed around a leg loop rather than fiddling around with shunts or what have you. Easy , quick and one less thing to get wrong,

In reply to p3tersen:

Yes, that makes sense.
Thanks

In reply to p3tersen:


This has been demonstrated experimentally, see reference in paragraph 7 of this article: http://www.camp4.com/rock/index.php?newsid=207