In reply to remus:
> Fair enough. You obviously care about the exactitude of the language more than I do!
Possibly not, if you use words such as nuanced... My problem isn't so much with the exactitude of the language but rather the exactitude of the thinking. In my experience, woolly misguided terms breed woolly misguided thinking. We're all agreed that, for us, definitive means as good as one could reasonably get. But, in the marketplace, 'definitive' seems to have become akin to 'low sugar' or 'Vitamin E added' or (God help us!) 'natural'. That's what makes me queasy.
> In particular definitive guidebooks are almost always put together by teams of very enthusiastic locals who put a lot back in to the local scene (e.g. cleaning up crags as they document them, negotiating access, equipping routes).
It's not the process to which I object; it's the pert term, which I just wouldn't use (and formerly wasn't used). Good on the locals (who don't have to be part of a guidebook team). I cleaned and equipped on Portland for 10 years, off my own bat, and I know others who have done likewise.
> It is simply not possible for someone like rockfax, who produce guides that cover vast swathes of europe, to make similarly substantial contributions.
Well, they probably can't give time. Arguably they could give more money (privately or corporately). But we've been here before!
> Personally I would prefer that my money goes towards creating a market for definitives so that the local guys will keep looking after the crags.
All my work - and that of others I've known down here - was done with our own money.
Mick (who will be away from these august forums for quite a few hours).