UKC

Brean Down - bolted lower-offs for the trad climbs?

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 Mike Goldthorp 12 Aug 2013
I've been thinking for a while that its a shame some of the high quality trad at brean down doesnt get done often, mainly because the top-outs all look like grim crawls up sandy/grassy slopes.

What would opinions be on bolted lower-offs at the top of the trad climbs?

For me the justification is that Brean is currently a convenient sport climbing venue which gets loads of traffic on the bolted routes, so why not make the trad climbs more accessible too.
And if you feel strongly about topping out, at least you've got a couple of bomber anchors before you pull over onto the unprotected grassy slopes above...
 The Pylon King 12 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

bang 'em in. theres some down at the fort.
 Bobling 12 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

Whereabouts?
 Puppythedog 12 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Hi Ya Mike. My thoughts are stick them in. I did Pandora's Box a year or so ago and swore off the place because I felt the routes weren't worth the top out. It may have been a nice climb without the top out, with it's a bag of ....
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Having climbed there last year I had the same thoughts. It's a pragmatic solution to an obvious problem. It doesn't change the challenge of the trad routes and, like you imply, people will climb those routes more often.

This has been done at Pic Tor near Matlock; trad limestone with a couple of bolted lower offs...and guess what? Those routes get climbed regularly and are enjoyed by many.
 nick hawkins 12 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I've often looked at brean trad when visiting family in Weston. The routes look great but the top outs have always made the decision for me.

Not only would I say bolt the lower offs I'd add that I'm available to help.
 lowersharpnose 12 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I thought the top out was part of the fun at Brean.
 Steve nevers 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Interesting, please let us know if this happens.
 Andy Donson 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:
Maybe just got lucky but the top out wasnt the issue on the trad routes i was on - more often the deteriorating state of the fixed gear. I guess topropability will increase traffic and get the ball rolling.....
 lowersharpnose 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Andy Donson:

Andy, your age is out of date.
 SGD 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: I got stuck trying to top out out at Brean last year. The rock on the top out was very loose kept coming off in fist sized lumps this was combined with grass embedded in sand which pulls out very easily....I did actually get my torso over the top at one point but then I started sliding backwards so a crapped myself and managed to control the slide off the cliff top back to my lonely ledge. I suppose I could have kept trying until I eventually dug a trench . When I was eventually dropped a rope I was informed there wasn't a belay. (we went equipped with ground anchor stakes which allow my partner to get to me but only after 2 abs)

Bolted belays would certainly encourage the likes of me to return. As despite the episode described above I did enjoy the route and we discussed next time approaching the routes from the top and putting a belay in place but anyone who has climbed the trad routes at Brean will know this isn't as easy as it might sound.....
Removed User 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Possibly the only place I swore I'd never go back to after two terrifying attempts to exit routes, DO IT!
 paul mitchell 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: As usual,bolts to be put in because punters don't have the balls to accept routes as they are.

Ooh dear it's so scary...
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I'm torn on this one. Normally I am anti bolts in the majority of 'bolts in trad routes' type debates but I can really see the other side of the coin in this case.

I have been trad climbing at Brean Down on several occasions (probably more than the 3 routes in my logbook) and generally had a pretty harrowing time both topping out, exiting from the top and coping with sandy routes. However, I always had a very memorable time that provided some great stories.

On one occasion I can remember hauling myself over the top expecting to belay from the guidebook advertised belay stakes to find absolutely nothing but 50 degree sandy grass, some ivy and 2 rabbit holes. After a thorough search I body belayed off a bucket seat in the sand, my feet wedged in the rabbit holes and a sling round some ivy that I hoped might act like some kind of organic screamer allowing me to hold the fall with the rabbit holes. Following this was a 3 pitch grassy sand pit with several saplings to sling enroute before climbing over a barbed wire fence onto the path at the top. While at the time it was definitely 'type 2 enjoyment' I look back on it with a feeling of proud accomplishment.

While bolted belays would definitely make the climbing more popular and arguably safer for the climbers it is worth bearing in mind that the beach below is a busy place and more rock climbers means more dislodged rock and a greater chance of hurting a foolish but innocent member of the public.

I also can't decide whether making the trad routes at Brean more popular through bolted belays is a good thing or not. Is it better to allow more climbers to enjoy a location and have a good day out than to allow a smaller number of climbers to have the kind of adventurous experience that will stay with them forever?

Ultimately, I can't really decide what would be best here. I would probably do more trad here if bolted belays went in. As it is I probably wont do much/any more trad here. Does that mean it should be bolted? I don't know.
 Ally Smith 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Mike - Why don't you raise this at the next SW Area meeting?

I'm an ex-local, and when i lived in Bristol my stance was to avoid the spread of bolting at Avon so that the "next generation" still had new routes to climb out of what is a very limited resource in the gorge.

However, my opinion varies greatly for Brean and I think bolted lower-off's would be a very sensible solution for this particular crag.

In reply to Paul Mitchell: Stop sprouting crap about crags you have no first hand historical knowledge of. Martin Crocker almost always used a pre-placed rope to belay/pull out on during his FA's - something that subsequent climbers frequently don't have the benefit of (needs a 100m static rope to set up). Bolted lower-off's would actually make the climbing experience much closer to what the FA had, rather than "bringing it down to their level"



In reply to Somerset swede basher: Your argument about the busy beach is self defeating. If you have climbers trying to scramble up loose slopes, dislodging rock and vegetation (see verious posts), then a solution that removes that danger is a good one.

People can have great adventurous experiences all over the area, especially on the coast to the south. I constantly marvel how I'm in the only team on any given crag on the Lleyn in gorgeous weather. I don't mind adventurous (I prefer it) but non existent belays and dengerous slopes at the top of the route are not what I'm interested in.

Take this to the BMC SW meeting for a good old fashioned debate with people who have been to the crag and know the area.
 Kemics 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I'd happily support this. I've eyed a few of the lines but been put off by sketchy top outs. I'm sure the routes could do with a little traffic.
In reply to Frank the Husky:

It was more of a publicly aired musing than an argument but yes I can see your point. I've found that generally I've not knocked any more than a bit of sand down once over the lip (if there had been any rock I'd have tied to it!) The loose stuff I was concerned about hurting people with was on the routes themselves. I guess that initially there might be increased danger below with more climbers but its not that bad there so with a bit more traffic it would probably clean up quickly. I'm not trying to put forward a case against bolt belays, just currently undecided that's all.
 edwardwoodward 14 Aug 2013
In reply to C Chestwig; Treacherous climber:
> (In reply to Mike Goldthorp)
>
>
> In reply to Paul Mitchell: Martin Crocker almost always used a pre-placed rope to belay/pull out on during his FA's - something that subsequent climbers frequently don't have the benefit of (needs a 100m static rope to set up).

Isn't that the solution though? A note in the guide saying "For routes A, B and C, a pre-placed belay rope is strongly advised to avoid a hairy top-out." or some such, and details on what to set up and how. I've done routes like that.
If you place the lower-offs with that justification, well wouldn't route D get more ascents with a bolt to replace the half-in cam at 20m, and so on?

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Its interesting that if someone went in and banged in a whole load of new stake belays along the top everyone would say 'well done' and 'thank you' and belay from them and lower back down using them in almost exactly the same way you would a few bolts in the top yet the addition of bolts sparks an entirely different feeling within a lot of people.
 Flashy 14 Aug 2013
In reply to C Chestwig; Treacherous climber:
> (In reply to Mike Goldthorp)
> In reply to Paul Mitchell: Stop sprouting crap about crags you have no first hand historical knowledge of. Martin Crocker almost always used a pre-placed rope to belay/pull out on during his FA's - something that subsequent climbers frequently don't have the benefit of (needs a 100m static rope to set up). Bolted lower-off's would actually make the climbing experience much closer to what the FA had, rather than "bringing it down to their level"

They have just as much opportunity to set up a belay as Martin did. Put the effort in and set it up to suit your level of risk and commitment. Bolted lower-offs aren't the answer FFS, bringing 100m of static rope is. And taking the time to set it up. We all have this benefit.

Laziness isn't an excuse for putting in bolts. If these routes are too inconvenient for people then they should accept defeat. If you can't afford the static rope or can't borrow one then accept defeat. Brean Down wins. Come back another day when you can finally be bothered.
1
 The Pylon King 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Flashy:

Nobody can be bothered. The routes don't get done.
 Ally Smith 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

Agreed +1
 JoshOvki 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

Then leave the routes not getting done.
 JoshOvki 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Why not put a few stakes in then, less lasting damage to the rock.
 deepstar 14 Aug 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:
> (In reply to The Pylon King)
>
> Then leave the routes not getting done.

Absolutely,why bother climbing at all?
 JoshOvki 14 Aug 2013
In reply to deepstar:
Well I bother climbing because I find it fun. If the route is too risky for me (including the topout) and I don't think it will be fun I won't climb it. Doesn't mean someone else won't find it fun and climb it.
 Ramblin dave 14 Aug 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

> Doesn't mean someone else won't find it fun and climb it.

Although in this case, it would appear that they don't...
 JoshOvki 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

The people that have posted on this thread don't represent the entire climbing community.

Personally I am quite a fan of dodgy topouts, but I always have been considered a bit strange.
 3 Names 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Although in this case, it would appear (according to UKC logbooks) they do...
 Flashy 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:
> (In reply to Flashy)
>
> Nobody can be bothered. The routes don't get done.

So? Why do they NEED to get done? It's ok for something to be too much for people and not get done much. It's not like it's a climbing wall that needs to justify its existence financially.

 The Pylon King 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Flashy:
> (In reply to The Pylon King)
> [...]
>
> So? Why do they NEED to get done? It's ok for something to be too much for people and not get done much. It's not like it's a climbing wall that needs to justify its existence financially.

They dont need to be done but given the FAist has put belay bolts elsewhere on this and nearby crags it wouldn't be exactly out of character.
 JoshOvki 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:
> (In reply to Flashy)
> [...]
>
> They dont need to be done but given the FAist has put belay bolts elsewhere on this and nearby crags it wouldn't be exactly out of character.

It is no wonder people use the "thin-end of the wedge" argument.
 3 Names 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

This from the guy that doesnt want us to use chalk?
 Flashy 14 Aug 2013
In reply to The Pylon King: If the FA had put up sport climbs elsewhere then fully bolting the routes wouldn't be out of character either. I don't think it's a good reason to put in bolt belays.

It's already been said that adequate trad anchors exist for those willing to put in the effort, so we're talking about putting in bolt belays for convenience alone. It really shouldn't happen. Everyone needs to man up in one of two ways -- 1.) accept they can't do the routes because they're lazy knackers or 2.) spend an hour or two constructing belays for these routes.

Climbing isn't just about doing some moves on rock, or knocking out the routes one after the other. Often climbing days are more memorable for other activities, like finding the crag, finding a way off, finding decent belays etc etc etc. It sounds like here building the belays would be a pretty memorable part of the day. That's climbing in the UK for you.
 HeMa 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Paging TobyA to the white courtesy phone...

You've climbed a lot here in Finland, where quite a few of the trad lines have bolted anchors (even if there's a nice tree or something nearby and no disgusting loose crap to climb before the good gear/trees).

Bar your pet peewee @ Jaanankallio, what do ya think.

My own opinion is that it is good, especially if the crag has also sport routes and is single-pitch (like pretty much everything in Finland). But then again, I'm lazy... and like easy anchors for projecting or simply getting down.
In reply to paul mitchell:
>
> Ooh dear it's so scary...

Not true Paul.
Cannot. Be. Arsed. Bolt the belays.

> Climbing isn't just about doing some moves on rock, or knocking out the routes one after the other. Often climbing days are more memorable for other activities, like finding the crag, finding a way off, finding decent belays etc etc etc. It sounds like here building the belays would be a pretty memorable part of the day. That's climbing in the UK for you.

That probably explains why the average trad grade on the UKC database is HS and has dropped from VS over the last few years.

 Flashy 14 Aug 2013
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
> That probably explains why the average trad grade on the UKC database is HS and has dropped from VS over the last few years.

First of all, so what? Are we competing with other countries for highest average lead grade or something?

Second of all, how has the number of sport routes changed over those past few years? Unless Portland has fallen into the sea I suspect the number has increased. So has the increase in number of sport routes caused the drop in average grade?

 dan gibson 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: I've climbed a couple of the trad routes at Brean. I have good memories of Great Corner with its dodgy rock and tricky top out.
I'm looking forward to doing Bones Chimney and various other routes sometime, hopefully without lower offs insitu.
This seems like bolting for convenience climbing, what's wrong with some adventure?

Dan
 The Pylon King 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to The Pylon King)
>
> This from the guy that doesnt want us to use chalk?

incorrect. over use of chalk. get yer facts right please.
 The Pylon King 14 Aug 2013
In reply to Flashy:

You are preaching to the converted here but i think it is least something that should be debated.
 remus Global Crag Moderator 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Seems like a good idea to me.

It does indeed cut in to the 'adventure factor' but frankly I don't care. F*ck rolling the dice on 50ft of 45 degree sand and grass just so I can climb some mediocre piece of limestone. If you're keen on that sort of thing then clip the bolts and carry on through, I imagine kicking steps up the sand will feel pretty adventurous whether you're 40ft above trad gear or bolts.
 Flashy 15 Aug 2013
In reply to remus: I thought it had been established that you can construct adequate trad belays with a bit of pre-preparation? The bolts wouldn't do away with the need to climb the sand, only the need to build a belay.
 The Ivanator 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Flashy: Think we are discussing bolts (i.e. lower offs) at the top of the rockface, not bolts at the top of the sand/grass/choss.
 remus Global Crag Moderator 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Flashy:
> (In reply to remus) I thought it had been established that you can construct adequate trad belays with a bit of pre-preparation? The bolts wouldn't do away with the need to climb the sand, only the need to build a belay.

So it was, my mistake.

My opinion is unchanged however. As far as Im concerned there is little stylistic difference between avoiding the top out with a pre placed ab rope and avoiding the top out by using a bolt belay. The advantage of the bolt belay of course being that you don't need to buy, carry and setup an enormous ab rope every time you want to do a route.

I understand that some people might not like the idea of bolt belays, but of the people on this thread who have climbed at the crag the majority seem to be in favour of bolt belays. It would be a good point to raise at the next area meeting I suppose.
 Flashy 15 Aug 2013
In reply to The Ivanator: No, I realise that. It was stated above that belays can be constructed at the top of the rock by lowering a rope from belays higher up. That was what was done on the FA apparently.

I understand why of many traditionally protected crags this might warrant bolt belays more than any other. But it's been admitted over and over that it's just because people don't want to carry an extra rope and set up their belays in advance.

I'm also aware of the fact that in the U.S. there have been struggles to stem the tide of bolts by people wanting to make crags, or even just a few moves, safer or more convenient. During the 'bolt wars' in this country those opposed to bolting said they were worried it wouldn't stop at the creation of sport crags, but bolts would start to appear on trad crags. Well here we are discussing bolt belays on a trad crag.

People talk about the thin end of the wedge, and others tell them they're being hysterical. Well, the thin end of the wedge came and went in the 80s. We're at the rapidly thickening middle portion of the wedge now.
 SGD 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: Now that I've thought about this for a bit longer I'm not sure bolted belay would work on a great many routes as the rock quality at deteriorates considerably towards the top of the crag. In these instances a bolt belay would most likely be more dangerous than not having one there at all. In these instances belay stakes near the top of the routes would probably be a lot safer, which then begs the question why put any bolted belays in at all, why not just add to or replace the existing stakes??
 thomasadixon 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Vote for leaving alone.

The easier routes get done, the harder ones don't just like at lots of crags around here. If you don't fancy the top outs go elsewhere, it's hardly like we're short of climbing in the area. Bolting near the top would change the routes in the same way that putting a bolt half way up would, make it safer, easier, and reduce the challenge.

If what you want is convenient climbing then we're hardly short of it round here...
 Xavierpercy 15 Aug 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp: I've done quite a few of the trad routes at Brean and the top outs are generally ok. The rock is generally sound but the lack of traffic combined with the sand that gets washed down or blown up means that the finishing holds can get clogged with sand. The grass slope above is easy angled and it is hard to find decent belays near the cliff edge. There is only one stake that I know of and this is above Pandora's box and is in a pretty sorry state. A 40 metre static rope is perfectly adequate to belay from as there are plentiful good gear placements in the short walls higher up the slope.
Brean is essentially an "adventure trad" area and will never be popular. The rock is poor in places, the fixed gear is getting very old, the holds get choked with sand and then there is the additional difficulty of the lack of convenient cliff top belay points. Bolted lower-offs will not make much difference and the routes will remain unpopular. Three Snaps to Heaven has a handful of log book ticks even though it is a crack that can be well protected and also has a bolt lower-off from the top of Tide Rising. Tide Rising (which is next door is harder but is bolted)has almost 150 log book entries.
The few who want to do the trad at Brean will do it, I do not think bolt lower offs will increase the take up. The only way to get the routes popular would be to bolt them and that would be a bit of a shame.
 Appleby 16 Aug 2013
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> That probably explains why the average trad grade on the UKC database is HS and has dropped from VS over the last few years.

Average is a poor metric in this case: people who climb E6 may still log climbs at VDiff therefore the average is weighted to the lower end of the scale. The mode (VS) would be a better measure of the difficulty of climbs done.

The raw data doesn't mean much anyway as it lumps together lead/toprope/2nd and onsight/dogged climbs

 GridNorth 16 Aug 2013
In reply to Appleby: It's a poor metric because only a fraction of climbers log their routes on UKC. I would also doubt very much that E6 climbers spend much time on V.Diffs although I am prepared to be proved wrong on that.
 Ramon Marin 02 Sep 2013
In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

The top out looks horrible, I will stick to the sport climbs there and go trad to cheddar/pembroke/swanage instead, which is way better. Bolting lower off would definitely make the routes more appealing for me, if the consensus is to keep them for the "adventurous" then it's fine with me.
 Dave Garnett 02 Sep 2013
In reply to SGD:
> (In reply to Mike Goldthorp) Now that I've thought about this for a bit longer I'm not sure bolted belay would work on a great many routes as the rock quality at deteriorates considerably towards the top of the crag. In these instances a bolt belay would most likely be more dangerous than not having one there at all. In these instances belay stakes near the top of the routes would probably be a lot safer, which then begs the question why put any bolted belays in at all, why not just add to or replace the existing stakes??


My thoughts too. Also, if you need a bolt the the top of the second pitch of Cyclops Slab, for instance, would you like one at the top of the first pitch too? If you want to avoid the bramble cornice hang a rope there before you start. It just needs a bit of reconnaisance.

The argument that (relatively) few people do the trad routes is the worst possible reason for bolting anything.
 TobyA 02 Sep 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> The argument that (relatively) few people do the trad routes is the worst possible reason for bolting anything.

I thought "you don't need to clip them if you don't want to" was universally acknowledged as the worst argument for bolting anything?

I've never climbed at Brean Down so don't know the local situation, but I would have thought that making a route more popular isn't that bad a reason for bolting a lower off (but nothing else)?
 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2013
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to Appleby) It's a poor metric because only a fraction of climbers log their routes on UKC. I would also doubt very much that E6 climbers spend much time on V.Diffs although I am prepared to be proved wrong on that.

Thread hijacking a bit here - but that in itself doesn't make it a poor metric, provided that people who log their climbs on UKC are representative of the climbing community overall. I don't think that's too much of a stretch, but others may disagree (If anything I would suspect that climbers at the lower end of the scale maybe under-represented).

If you accept that UKC climbers are a representative sample, then you just have to take the maximum lead grade *per climber* to get an average. Not perfect by any means, but I suspect it wouldn't be too wide of the mark.
 GridNorth 02 Sep 2013
In reply to TobyA: The thing with Brean Down is that the top out is essentially vertical sand with a healthy growth of grass. Even getting stakes in is a challenge. It's one of the few places I can think of where belay bolts would make the climbing experience far more enjoyable and to some extent could be considered justified but to be fair that is a selfish reason. Walking round and placing a rope and then walking back might seem a good idea to some diehards but you wouldn't get much climbing done with that approach.
In reply to various:

I have to sigh after reading a comment that "Flashy" made somewhere above. He said (regarding bolted belays):

"Everyone needs to man up in one of two ways -- 1.) accept they can't do the routes because they're lazy knackers or 2.) spend an hour or two constructing belays for these routes."

He wasn't being ironic. This is the sort of clueless, binary thinking that has led to certain trad areas becoming derelict (i.e. Peak Limestone).

"Man up":- really!?
"An hour or two constructing belays":- If it takes you that long to construct a belay (anywhere) you're incompetent by definition.
"too lazy":- more perjorative nonsense.

With such rubbish being spouted it's no wonder that we are where we are. I can't remember seeing any lazy or unmanly climbers in Indian Creek or Yosemite where there are thousands of bolted belays on trad lines. This isn't the 1980s any more and we need to move on. The bolted belays I've installed on trad linestone in the Peak (without first engaging in unproductive UKC "discussions") are all well used and the trad lines are getting climbed, whereas they weren't before. I've given up asking for "permission", because so few understand the issues and so many still talk of thin ended wedges without ever saying anything meaningful.

Good luck to those who want to be pragmatic at Brean Down, may the force be with you.
 Tom_Ball 03 Sep 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
“Although in this case, it would appear (according to UKC logbooks) they do...”

That is a pretty poor assumption you have made there, the reality is allot of the trad lines get climbed so infrequently they aren’t even on ukc

Tom

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