UKC

I've been doing a lot of self reflection recently, which has had it's ups and downs; more downs if I'm honest. One thing I have come to realise is that quite often I don't like being me, and throughout my life I have 'fantasized' that one day, at some point something will click and I will be a different person.

What I'm slowly starting to realise is that every day from now 'til the day I die, I will wake up me, and that's it, no ifs or buts. It may seem obvious to most, but I am finding it incredibly hard to get my head around and at times almost terrifying in the absolute truth of it. You have one body, see through one set of eyes, think with one mind, and that it is it, end of. To some with a different psychology, my repression or denial of this inescapable fact might seem a bit daft, but that's the way it is for me at the moment.

Don't know what I expect to achieve from posting this, but I thought perhaps some perspective from other people on what they have found difficult to accept in their lives, existential or otherwise, would help, if people are willing to share.

If not, I suppose I'll have to accept that...

In reply to Taurig: I got divorced, and consequently missed a lot of my children growing up, not all of it I still saw them fairly regularly and supported them, and after the split up I have really got on with their mum. But I still feel rubbish about it, they tell me that's its ok (we speak every week on e-mail) and I wasn't a crap Dad, but I think they are just being overly fair to me. It's my great failure in my life I think.

In reply to Taurig: I know those feelings too. I've always had this expectation that one day soon everything will click into place and I'll be a better person, life will be easier and I'll be where I want to be in life with no more problems. It's never happened though and I'm starting to realise that it looks like it won't.

In reply to Taurig:


You are wrong mate.You have an endless capacity for change yourself and your life. You just have to have the desire to do it.

If you are really that pissed off with something in your life then change it.

Try something new. I try and live my life by the philosophy that I will try ANYTHING once (except incest and folk dancing). For me there aren't enough hours in the day to try all the things I want to do.

Make small changes regularly and dont look back..

p.s I've been married twice, have 4 kids 7 grandkids have been to hell and back several times in my 56 years on this planet but still come out fighting when the bell rings.

In reply to Choss Weasel:


Sometimes you have to fight like f*ck to be who you want to be and get to where you want to get. Not many people want to fight like f*ck...

Mick

In reply to Taurig: man, i dont know where to start on this.

In reply to mgco3:

I know where you're coming from, sometimes it's good to get a change of scenery. However, at the moment I feel that external factors are of limited impact, almost a distraction from what I need to focus on changing, which is my level of internal self-acceptance.

In reply to Choss Weasel:

Glad to know I'm not alone. I should say that I honestly believe that going through this is for the better, rather than living your life deluded that something will magically change. I'm nowhere near it yet, but I do believe that learning to accept yourself and surrender to the reality you occupy completely is the only way forward.

In reply to Taurig:

I sruggle with some of this stuff too, but it's finally got through to me that the only way I can have the life I want is if I make the life I want. There are things I've missed out on, things I won't get to do, but there's generally always some poor soul out there in a worse position.

Some of the ways I want my life to be are a real struggle for me, but attempting them is better than not, with its attendant risk of even more self-loathing for not trying...

In reply to Taurig:

I can understand your perspective greatly. I've made many decisions by default rather than by design and have ended in a groove in which I don't enjoy day to day life, and yet feel guilty for feeling like that. At some point something has to change, because, as you say, you only have one life. Ultimately, for me it means not being controlled by my weaknesses, and having the courage to be the person and lead the life I want to lead. As Mick says "fight like f*ck to be who you want to be", which is the right attitude, because the grooves, attitudes, habits and behaviours are hard to break unless you try like f*ck to make good your wants in life. Stop thinking.. ..stop spending time in your own head.. ..put a goal out there.. ..do a running commentary about everything you do to stop you thinking.. ..and spend more time doing, and only those things that will get yourself from A to B. Reward yourself for small steps you make. Good luck.

In reply to Taurig:

Sometimes things *do* change and you find yourself in a position you hadn't necessarily anticipated, but I think it's about managing your core self so you're still able to be you and do the things that really matter to you. Some of the compromises you have to make might, perversely, lead you to better places than otherwise. That's the way I try to look at it anyway - as this is UKC, others can, and will, disagree.

In reply to Jimbo W:
.put a goal out there.. ..do a running commentary about everything you do to stop you thinking.. ..and spend more time doing, and only those things that will get yourself from A to B. Reward yourself for small steps you make. Good luck.


I've started doing pretty much exactly this, except the goal isn't out there as I've failed too many times before and don't need any more reasons to kick myself. I'm keeping a log of my progress!

In reply to Tall Clare:

That's ok Clare, but if the decisions you made in your life change other peoples lives irrevocably you can still feel some despair and remorse for those decisions.

In reply to Taurig:

I got screwed over at work recently just when i thought things were gojng my way. I've learned that life will always be a struggle for me, i'm not one of those people for whom things come easy.

The funny thing is no-one else sees me the way i see myself. It's whats on the inside that counts.

In reply to Taurig: there are loads... the fact that my sister hates me and will do anything to hurt me. I finally gave up on her a couple of years ago after her most recent and nasty thing she did to me. I dont know why she hates me and I'll never know why but I'm not losing any sleep over it, now.

The years I spent breaking my back, going back to college and getting decent qualifications and work experience that now count for nothing in the grand scheme of things. I've had to completely dumb down my CV and I feel that 10 years and a few grand of tuition is wasted and I'm merely a robot now. I won't ever get to work in the industry I want to work in.

My goals in life have shrunk. I don't bother dreaming big any more.

In reply to Taurig:

Thanks for posting that, can't have been easy. Strangely, (or not), I'm having very similar thoughts. All sorts of things change, jobs, relationships, where you live, financial security. What doesn't change is me. Yes, I can adapt, take up hobbies, work on fitness etc. That doesn't change me at the core level. And that's who I have a problem with.

<wanders off to do some CJDesque pondering>

In reply to Tall Clare:

Good for you and really good luck with it. I find it a struggle.. ..but I'm really trying! Also, I didn't mean "out there" as in public, but rather "out there" in the metaphorical future of kinda where you want to be.. ..if you see what I mean?!

In reply to Taurig:

Accept? But was it hard? Not sure.

That I am never going to be one of those 'successful' types who can accept corruption or dreadful technical standards in exchange for an easy life and a good pension.

In reply to Ridge:

It is possible.. ..but what you're talking about is relearning and rewiring bits of your brain. It absolutely can be done. But it isn't about finding some "answer" or some "enlightenment" within, but is rather about practice and repetition over and over again of new behaviours and small positive steps in a new direction of travel. But practice is the key, forming new habits of thought and of behaving.

In reply to mgco3:


Starts with accepting at a very deep level *who you are now*.

Which is what the OP is working on. It's not always an easy thing, but it's necessary.

In reply to RockAngel:
My goals in life have shrunk. I don't bother dreaming big any more.

I feel so sad at your post, me and my only sibling, my sister,rarely communicate, in fact I get in touch with my nieces more but when we do it is always with a background of family love. I really love my sister and next to my children love her more than anybody in the world, are you sure you can't make up with her? I'm sure you are still too young to write your life off like you seem to be doing, of course you might be 60 for all I know, but I doubt it and really it's never too late to build bridges.

In reply to Choss Weasel:

I have been feeling like this for a few years. I keep thinking that it's probably the start of some spectacular midlife crisis.

In reply to Al Evans:

As I said at the end of my post, others may disagree. We all have different life experiences and make different choices. I feel despair over some things in my life but at the moment I'm choosing to be positive. Others may feel, and do, differently.

In reply to Taurig: That I will only ever achieve something I if man up , grit my teeth and go for it . It is really very easy to sit back and complain about how life isn't working , and expect others to solve all my problems .
Sometimes you've just got to throw away your ego , start again and try and make something good happen .

In reply to Taurig: I stood next to my brother when he took his last breath..... That was 13 years ago and in those years I've turned my life around ,from a "bar fly" with no prospects to a very happily married person with a great job and loads of drive for all that I do climb surf bike etc.
But most of all believe in yourself and as Mick said fight for it , it's worth it

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


Realising things like that can be surprisingly enlightening sometimes.

In reply to Taurig:

Yep, but you can change it quite remarkably. You'll not get much taller (maybe an inch or two, if you're posture isn't great and you improve it) but you can make big changes to weight, muscle mass, strength, cardio fitness, endurance, balance, skin sensitivity, voice, etc.


Yep.


Nope. Your mind can change massively. Patterns of thought, attitudes, behaviours, qualities like tenacity, flexibility and a thousand others, all incredibly changeable.

What it boils down to (IMHO) is this: you are not you. The thing called 'you' is just what you are at the moment. Staying that way is a choice. Changing is another choice, although a somewhat scary one because it strikes at our sense of identity, the idea that there is a solid unchanging and reliable 'me'.

If you're not happy with who you then you've made a start by recognizing it - change, sir. And the very best of luck to you.

In reply to Taurig:

I'm just trying to accept life as it is and not to fight and be angry about it. I've been ill for 8 months, now been diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I started to get better earlier in the year, overdid it and knocked myself back to the start. Been off work since the end on May and can do very little at the moment (barely walk a couple of mins up the road and back), waiting for a clinic appt to hopefully get a recovery plan. I've got to accept that my life is very limited, lonely, boring and rough at the moment, and not get angry and upset about it; I've got to accept that it may (will...) take a long time to get better, and that I may have this forever to some degree, or get better and relapse sometime in the future; mainly atm I've got to accept that I'm going to be 30 on Sunday, which I'm finding pretty hard - not where I wanted to be in life on this milestone.

Interesting to read others' things too. Accepting what you cannot change about life and learning to live with it is very hard, but is the only way to be 'at peace'. Sounds so simple.

Cat

In reply to elliptic:


Yes, exactly what I mean. I am trying to avoid my usual constant prediction and analysis, but I feel I will have to start with self acceptance, followed by acceptance of my external reality before I can make any lasting change to what I consider 'me'.

On that last point, there are times I feel quite alienated from reality as well, as if it, or myself, seems unreal. I've not always felt this way, so I am hoping that it's an effect of the 'filter' that my current depressive mindset is applying to reality, and that it might in time lead to a new, healthier perspective. Sometimes I feel that I am struggling to accept the very nature of existence and consciousness, which I can assure you is not fun, but ultimately you have no choice with this but to, again, accept it!

In reply to mgco3:

That's a rather snide remark. At least incest is natural.

In reply to Taurig: Happiness is only a thought away kidda I advise checking out the wonderful world of tai chi and meditation. I say both because they compliment each other very well. Also consider a retreat to give yourself some space. Samye Ling is excellent; a monastery near Lockerbie...they welcome anyone. I felt similar to what you described and the aforementioned helped. Give them a chance. Give yourself a chance...

In reply to Taurig: Three and a half months ago I split with my fiance and was devastated. It's still incredibly hard and I am having trouble accepting that in all likelihood we'll never get back together.

Part of the reason we split is that I am a bit of a plodder without too much drive. I've always been like that but it's meant that I've ruined the best thing I've had in my life for a very long time.

The day I left our home I decided to take control of my life, face the fear and pursue my dream of becoming a successful photographer. Four days later I quit my job on the spot, packed what I needed in my car and travelled up to Snowdonia for a job interview.

I now live in Capel Curig, right in the heart of the action and although I'll always be 'me' the split has made me throw caution to the wind and just go for it. I wish I'd had the courage to show my ex that I had this in me when we were together, if I had we'd still be together now.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong with you being you, none of us are perfect, but sometimes you've just got to grab your life by the balls instead of passively waiting for something to happen.

All the best and good luck to you...

In reply to Taurig:

I've come to terms with the fact I am me, but h*ly shit I've lived half my 70 years and there's still so much out there I want to see and do, I'm never going to get round to it all : (.

In reply to Tall Clare:

Yeah, i still find it amazing when people i respect enormously defer to me for advice. The 'little boy' inside still think i'm a worthless little shit with no redeeming qualities.

To the OP i wonder if it's partly age. I grew up on American films spouting the message that one day i'd find myself and everything would fall into place.......it never hapened

In reply to Taurig: Maybe the realisation that all this self-analysis and self-absorption has led to a spiral inwards, which will inevitably lead to one vanishing up one's own fundament, is not helping one bit, may be worth considering?

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

In reply to Taurig:

sorry, that was a bit doom and gloom, but you did ask what is that saying about accepting the things you can't change and changing the things you can and having the wisdom to know the difference - seems to fit this thread well.

In reply to stroppygob:

As a blatant navel-gazer, I think you may well have a very good point here. There's a Buddhist (?) mantra that says 'this, too, shall pass'. I like that.

In reply to stroppygob:


that's the one!

In reply to Taurig: i know it isn't on the same level as a lot of what has been said but for me it was the realisation that my i'd broken the promise i'd made to my partner - that's i'd never hurt her. I was reckless and rash, fell off a route, it scared and hurt her emotionally and caused her to finish me. recognising i f*cked up the best thing in my life was the hardest

alex

In reply to 1906johns:

I don't think that's on a different level, it's very appropriate. We've grown to want and want and want. And it's now a lot easier to get (although getting a bit harder financially now). Consequently we lose sight of what's important in life.

I was in CIC last winter with loads of incredibly experienced climbers, i was well jealous. But then many of them were going home to empty houses. As much as my other half and the kids do my head in i know where they sit in my list of priorities.

In reply to stroppygob:

You're absolutely right. Luckily I feel that a lot of the time I can pick and choose when I get self-absorbed and 'deep'; I can generally function as normal at work and leisure, and I'd guess that most people I know would be surprised if I told them the thoughts going through my head.

Why would I voluntarily put myself in a low mood, or think of things that cause me panic? It's a fair question, but I believe that sometimes you have to hit the bottom so you can push yourself up and off it. For sure I could go immediately into positive psychology and change my ways of thinking, but I think that it would be a bit like a house of cards. Uncomfortable as it is, I feel that once you've started down this kind of path you have to see it to the end, even if it means facing up to deep rooted issues and mind bending fears. Otherwise, if the house of cards collapses, you'll have way further to fall.

I do agree that it's essential to take time out from these thoughts though, they are exhausting.

In reply to 1906johns:

Amen brother!

In reply to Al Evans:


I would never trust her again in any way. I can't change her opinion of me, I don't even want to try with her. My life is so much better without her in it!

after a 3 hour search online for any retail jobs in my town, Ive found one, in another town. Im losing the will to live

Hardest thing....I suppose is, that sometimes there is no happy ending.

In reply to Taurig:



Go find a good CBT trained psychologist. Realise that no matter how deep you dig within yourself, the answer is not there, and all your are doing is compounding the problem. You do not have all the answers, you need unbiased, uninvolved, unemotional external information. You need to be asked the right questions.

In reply to Taurig:

In answer to your question probably the fact that I'll never see my little bruv again . And 15 close friends all of whom made me laugh and smile persistently . That sucks but they wouldn't want me wallowing so I don't ( mostly ).

Some good replies for you to work with above .

This quote struck me recently . . . " Remember that happiness is a way of travel , not a destination ."

Be happy because you can , only you can really change this . Its fine to have a reflective moment now and then but its also cool to get out there and have new experiences and seek new alternative enjoyment . Try not to think about it too much , just do it man ! There is only now , Be happy !

In reply to Taurig:

It has to be a gradual process though, it's late and I've got things to do (and on my mind), but a therapist talked to me about getting to grips with things in bite sized chunks, whether it's emotions, or changing how you feel about yourself, or how you think about life.

Could you try and do the two things side by side, have some positive psychology about yourself, while facing up to the things which are at root, as well? If you're trying to get to the root of things, that's a positive?

If you're trying, you're doing okay. My heart goes out to you because I've struggled with this kind of stuff for what's felt like a really long time, and now feel like I'm emerging from the other side as it were.

It's okay not to be perfect, so long as you're trying to be a good person, or a better person, 'good enough' is okay, or having quirks and flaws but being mostly okay as a person is.

You'll not find anybody who is perfect.

In reply to Taurig:

That better people are out there.

In reply to Taurig: I was exposed to some pretty grim things in Kosovo and found it really hard to just do my job....I came very close to taking personal action, it's haunted me ever since and I regularly think I should have taken a few people out for the greater good..

In reply to Tony Naylor:

The trouble that I have with that idea is that the 'me' that I currently am is the product of nature/nurture plus the combination of all my life experiences. This means that any 'me' that I change myself into (via CBT or whatever) will be an artificial, or fake, version. At least by staying as I am, I am aware of what I am really like.

Someone made a point about others not seeing you as you see yourself. I think this is because we project our idea of what other people are like onto them, and see them as being really like that. To them, they're not like that, but to us, they are. We believe our own brains.

Incidentally, as there seem to be a number of people out there who have experience of depression, I have a question for you. I find that when I am most depressed, I see things with the greatest clarity - because reality really is somewhat depressing. The question is: Am I alone in this view - and indeed, am I wrong to hold it ?

Rug

P.S. I had written some other stuff, but fortunately I make a point of reading back what I write before posting - so I have spared you all some utter crap. You see, I am nice after all !

In reply to rug:

My wife's mother has a recurring deep depression that manifests itself in quite spectacular OCD and serious psychosis that results in her having to go into hospital for a while. In conversation amongst family it was suggested that she should do CBT and for a good while i thought, yes riding a 125cc motorbike is great fun but will it really get to the bottom of her depression?

In reply to rug:

What utter bollocks.

You're not the same person you were yesterday, are you now a five year old child, as you were years ago?

Any change we make to ourselves, by whatever method, is real change. You're making excuses.



When you are depressed you see things in a way which is filtered through a set of chemical/psychological/emotional processes, it's not more clear at all. It may be more simple, easier, more believable, as you are only looking at life from one (negative) perspective.

In reply to Taurig:
>...I thought perhaps some perspective from other people on what they have found difficult to accept in their lives, existential or otherwise, would help, if people are willing to share...

The failing of the body. Dam* thing...

Excellent thread and thanks to the OP for honesty. Seem to be lots of good posts and advice above.

In reply to Taurig:
just a note of humour and not entirely meant to "piss on the chips" of the depressed.

I found it hard to accept that:
1) I am bald really.
2) even if I wished to do what porn actors do, I would physically be unable to (size but also fitness).
3) that everytime I meet a new person in the UK, they instantly comment on my accent. If it wasn't bad enough being born French, I had the folly to learn Glaswegian...it ain't pretty.

C'mon Taurig, let's go climbing mate.

In reply to doz generale:

She's lucky it was only a motorbike. Asking for a bit of CBT from someone who was into S&M was a bit unpleasant..

In reply to rug:

The 'me' that's a product of your experiences is no more real than a construct you make as a result of CBT, (whatever that is). It's the comfortable, (or not), default option. I agree it's extremely hard to change, (which is why I don't), but it's not 'real'.


I agree reality isn't all it's cracked up to be, but the depressive viewpoint is.again an easy default. Everythings very simple, (it's all shit, why bother), but that's a false clarity.

In reply to Taurig:

i think youre bored.

you talk about waking up with one mind, one body, one set off eyes etc and thats just not how it works.
yes, thats the hardware youre issued with, but the programs that run thru it and what you use the bits for can be changed and rebooted as often as needed.

along with the default stuff we are all endowed with a state of the art updating and rebooting system. theres lots of ways to spin thru other realities that have other eyes, bodies and values that go with them. but you gotta be ready to for the shock of the new.

maybe you just talked yourself out of using it and let the channel youre on calcify so you forgot there are others, even tho the one youre on doesnt seem to be working too well. what happened? when and why did you stop downloading new stuff?
when did you last make a change to a newer and cooler reality?

maybe you intentionally never did, and let others do it to/for you. in which case its no surprise you dont know which buttons to press and dials to tune.
for you it may not be a matter at changing channels, more about finding the remote. it may just be dropped down the back of the sofa of life that youve been watching the world go by from, comfortable but just a spectator.

i bet everyday you tell yourself that youre not this and you dont like that, and that 'other people' do 'other stuff'. maybe im wrong, but if you do youre not exactly attracting the shit to make the changes.

define the guy you want to be and stop doing shit that guy wouldnt. youve done it before, you ended up here. at some point you chose this channel.

if it helps, ive noticed most big changes start with tequila and new shoes.

In reply to Taurig:

Hardest thing I've had to accept?

Once she's got childbearing out of the way there is no longer any interest in the sexual part of our relationship and as the menopause progresses sex becomes so painful for he that even the grudging "quickie" is no longer possible. So at the age of 57 I'm to become a monk.

In reply to ice.solo:

Tequila and new shoes? No Japanese cheerleaders?

You disappont me

In reply to Taurig: I've spent my whole life being everything and not really being anything - and it's only lately that I actually want to be something. A climber actually. It allows me to grow mentally and let's me do most of the other stuff I need in my life.
Only yesterday however, I realised that I let life happen to me, in that I meet amazing people and all sorts of options open up to me which I often take. I need to be more proactive, more focused, I actually need to create the person I want to be though, as no one is going to hand that to me. As Mick Ward said - I'm gonna have to fight like f*ck to get there and no one is going to take on that fight for me. That's my battle.

I actually like who I've been, what I've done and who I've hung around with but it's time to change stuff around. So the TV is going, I'll work a little more and focus a whole lot more. And stop making excuses. And even if there is a reason, I'll try my damndest not to use it.

Kids aren't scared of change... we should try not to be as we get older.

In reply to Ridge:

one step at a time dear ridge. the japanese cheerleader reality takes more than tequila and new shoes to access.

but once there, the options are many. its something to aim for i believe.

In reply to ice.solo:

You are wise indeed, Sensei.

In reply to ice.solo:

All a lot easier when you have no ties. Particularly kids. I would love to 'reinvent' myself but i believe the impact on my family would be fundamentally selfish and i don't know if i would be any happier or fulfilled.

Maybe the grass is never greener.....but you can't help but wonder

In reply to Ridge:

aha grasshopper, indeed it is the universe that is wise, i am merely but an observer, cast amongst cheerleaders.

In reply to RockAngel:
How far away from where you are living are you looking at the moment for a job?
What is making you decide on the distance?

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

see i dunno. i find kids, family, mortgage, work, visas etc more the reason to change. they are all things subject to entropy an increasing rates that require bigger and better perspectives to get a grip on. taking on newerr, bigger and cooler realities makes it great - especially the kid bit. wow, its like having a unit for exponential change right in the living room.

thing is, youre gonna change one way or another. better to design and choose the process than get strung out and your hand forced.

i think its selfish not to change. to expect everyone to anchor onto your grinding immobility cant go well forever.
running away with a troupe of japanese cheerleaders doesnt have to be the only option (well lets at least pretend that for now), but the ability to shift realities needs to stay fresh.
one day things will change and you need the faculties sharp enough to surf the potential. going with the flow is bullshit - ride the anomalies or you just wind up ebbing like all the others, fighting over off-the-rack realities that soon grow tight.

if it all good now then no need to change i suppose, maybe you got the factors right.
but just in case, keep the edge sharp.

In reply to Taurig: Yep, the one truth is that you are you, and until the day you die thats who you will be.

Then of course you do get to influence who this 'you' is.

You may never be exactly who you want to be, but then there may well be incompatable wants. For instance I may want to be a great husband and father and yet also want to be single and unencumbered.

So for me it has to be about priorities. What is your highest priority? Persue that foremost, to achieve that others may have to be sacrificed, at least for now.

For many years I thought I knew who I was and what I wanted. But circumstances changed. Ended up changing the focus of my life, but remaining true to my highest prioritiy.

J

Finally, learn to accept who you are and enjoy it.

In reply to doz generale: Now this may be completely wrong but have you considered massive vitamin deficiency, say iron?

In reply to Bob kate bob: im looking at jobs up to an hour away. Main reason being is that i'll end up spending half my income on travelling to & from work. How is that better for me?

In reply to stroppygob:

Thank you for your words of support

No, I am not a five year old child, but I did say I was also the sum of my life experiences, so I wouldn't expect to be. (In some respects I am still a child - but that's another discussion).

You are projecting an imagined view onto me. You seem to be assuming that I wish to change. I don't. I don't like myself, but I have no aspirations to change, as I value what integrity I have. To you this is 'bollocks', to me it is reality. As mentioned, we believe our own brains - so you and I are not going to agree on this. ( BTW, wasn't there a thread a while back about self-delusional people being happiest ? :oP )

When I asked about the clarity of thought, I didn't just mean 'seeing that life is pointless and shitty'. While depressed, I finally managed to get an understanding of 4 dimensional space-time, and relativity. (It maybe wrong of course, but what maths I can do with it all fits OK).

If 'I am not going to change myself, because I don't want to change' is making excuses, then you have got me bang to rights with your last comment.

Rug

In reply to RockAngel:

Because you will show prospective employers that you can hold down a job ? Because there may be an option to transfer your job to the same employer, but closer to home ? Because you will be in daily contact with people who work in your field, who are more likely to hear of jobs sooner ?

Rug

In reply to rug: I try to keep in mind that I don't have to change myself, I just need to change my perspective.

That sometime helps.

Frogs in a blender also helps.

In reply to rug:


Interesting question.

My view is that the majority of 'healthy', not depressed people (in a consensus, medical kind of view) see the world through rose-tinted specs a bit. They protect themselves from the grimmer aspects of reality by not thinking about it. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's an in-built mechanism to aid our success and survival.

Depression (which I think is more slippery to define than the medical profession would have us think) is seeing the world through shit-tinted specs. In my experience, when I've been very low I have only seen the bad side and simply could not see the good. The same facts about my life can look either gloriously fortuitous and full of potential or abysmally grim and heading inexorably into doom, depending on my mood or which pair of tinted spectacles I'm metaphorically wearing that day.

I believe that the fairest, closest to objective view is neither that which we generally think of as the most healthy - the optimistic view which leads generally to success in things like jobs and relationships - nor the depressed, shit-tinted view, but is somewhere in between where all the light, shade, and textures can be seen with an open and analytical mind. This view cannot be seen when shrouded by depression. Depression cuts off a useful view of the world that includes all the information, as the mind is either busy ruminating on all the internal stuff or is completely numb and not receptive to information at all. Granted you may have insights while depressed that that state of mind is required to achieve. But I believe there'll also be a lot of stuff going on out there that you failed to notice because of your mental state.

This is just my view on things, it's not from a background in mental health work or anything, but it reflects my experience.

In reply to rug:

WTF? You don't like yourself but your 'integrity' won't permit you to change? That's just the ego talking. We've all got that; it's the lazy, feckless waster that doesn't want to put any effort into anything, so it will feed you any old bollocks as justification not to change. And it really is bollocks, not a 'different reality'. Tell that voice to feck off and change the things you don't like.

I was going to respond to stroppygobs post and comment that I thought he was correct in his views but overly harsh in his expression. Stroppy, I apologise - you're not being harsh, you've got it nailed.

In reply to RockAngel: You are making a presumption that it can only be an hour from where you live now, why not move.

One hour to be honest is really cutting down your options.
I used to do casual work when I was a student more than 1 hour travel away and that was before the minimum wage.

I have daily commuted 2 hrs each way in the past. To get a job for the last few years I have had to commute weekly to a different country.

To my eyes I think you are being way too choosy.

In reply to Taurig:

One simple piece of advice; dump your mirror. I am 64 years old and for most of those years my strongest point was self loathing, I have suffered severe depressive illness, but, and it is a huge but for people like us, life IS sweet and we must accept that ultimately it is all we have. So say "f*ck it!" I am who I am and I am worth every breath I take, in the knowledge that you are not alone in feeling the way you do.

In reply to Taurig: what is it that you dont like about yourself, or who you 'think' you are? Sounds like you are depressed/ I would strongly suggest you see a psychiatrist - my girlfriend is one, and the feelings you have mirror in part my own in the recent past. She wanted to prescribe me anti-depressants but i resisted because i dont like taking drugs, even painkillers unless absoltely necessary. Exception being the odd recreational one of course!

In any case as one poster has said, suggest you try something new. For me it was climbing at the gym, then the adventure of outdoor climbing. AND keep yourself busy so you dont have time to dwell.

Set yourself a challenge, something that seems practical but still a huge challenge (relatively). good luck!

In reply to Bob kate bob: i cant afford to move either! Its not just me i have to consider. I have a son who needs a roof over his head and a minimum wage job more than an hour away is putting that roof over our heads at risk if im paying for travelling to work instead of the rent.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

Maybe you should change your name to Frigid Rider

In reply to RockAngel: I hope things get better for you soon, I'm sure they will, maybe even your distrust of your sister will fade and you can reconcile, I hope so.

In reply to Taurig: I've lost track of who said what above, but my 2p worth on the topic.

1)Change by CBT or whatever doesn't make a fake you. You are in control of the changes you chose to make, or not. Its you.

2)The apparent clarity of the low point is in my experience a very clear view of a very skewed perspective.

Although I am unlucky to have felt that low point a few times, I have been very lucky that I have good support, strong coping and survival strategies and an ability to come up relatively quickly and "smell the coffee". I have felt that feeling of absolute clarity, it does seem so clear, but when I come out of it I realise that I was totally clear and certain of stuff that wasn't actually the case.

3) Don't be afraid to get help, and don't make stupid excuses not to.

In reply to Al Evans:

Honestly Al, that's never going to happen! Not a reconciliation with my sister at any point and I'm much happier without her in my life. I just don't know why she's like she is with me (and now she hasnt got me to bully, other people).

In reply to ice.solo:

Intersting perspective. True, i hhave changed, i'm older wiser and professionnaly more succesful. I think you're right in that we believe there is this alternative 'me' where everything is completely different and completely brilliant.

Maybe i need to celebrate the little changes more.

In reply to RockAngel: That's really sad, what she has done must have been really terrible, I just can't imagine me and sis doing anything that bad to each other that we couldn't make up?

In reply to Al Evans:

I've been trying to imagine and now I wish I hadn't....

In reply to Taurig:

I've been wondering whether and how to really respond to your OP as I find it a difficult question even though I, like many, have had some real problems to address in my life. But, yes, I would suggest you try to accept who you are rather than change that but acknowledge your failings and try not to repeat them, at least to the extent that they hurt other people. Other than that, live your life to the full and do your damnedest to enjoy it.

In reply to Taurig: This is one of the best things I've realised! We're one tiny soul amongst millions, we live in a rich country where we're never going to starve or even be without a roof over our heads. It's a license to do whatever you want. If it does't work out just try something else. F*ck it, if you want to be a rock star give it a go, if the weather's nice sign on and spend the summer climbing and riding bikes

In reply to Taurig:
Now here is an interesting because in 2001 I was in the same position. I didn't really like myself, was locked into depression and doomed to remain that way, or so I thought. After a "major" personal crisis I REALLY didn't want to be me anymore and so began a singleminded drive to be a different person. Of course it wasn't a straight forward task and it took a further two years till something clicked and I let go and accepted that I was different but also the person I had been before. Never looked back and not been depressed since. I just found a way that worked for me but the key thing was knowing really deep in my heart that I did not want to continue as I had been and not so much desiring to change but refusing to stay the same whatever the cost

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Perhaps to clarify. What I learned was not about fighting but about letting go. I still used to get depressed for a while but I refused point blank to react to it. So when I felt shit, or scared or just falling into a black hole I would say to myself "it's a black hole, it will pass, do nothing and just watch " . It wasn't that I learned to be happy, I learned to stay calm and through staying calm became happy by default

In reply to Taurig:

How old are you?
It's perfectly possible to change all sorts of things. You say 'think with one mind' but the mind that you have now is not the same mind that you had when you were 5.
Your brain is a plastic neural network and you can change its structure by forming new connections if you choose to.
You will have new experiences, meet new people, read new material and change your opinions over time.
You could see a thousand sunsets, but each one would be different.
You are a different person - but it isn't necessarily a big 'click'. It can be lots of small changes and realisations over time, nothing ground breaking.

In reply to rug:
>

Truth is like that sometime.
>

But since you were a five year old, you have consciously made choices which affect your personality and engender "change".
>

Then you have no integrity.


A self constructed reality, therefore a malleable, fleeting insubstantial, and of course liable to change.



Then you are psychotic, not depressed.


I'm not often wrong.

In reply to Taurig:

I found this quite interesting reading:

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/depression-learning-path/

It talks about a way of thinking (rumination) which is a very internal way of thinking and which involves trying to find solutions by thinking about situations, going over and over the same situation with slight variations, saying what you will say, what others will say, what you will do, what the outcome will be... often not actually finding any solutions, but thinking that if only you think about it hard enough, you will find an answer.

All this talk of 'fighting' and stuff - I think I just learnt to do a bit more relaxing - letting go of control and not trying to contain everything. I also changed the way I treated myself, the ways in which I talk to myself (nah - I don't actually talk to myself! just my own internal voice!).

Change is perfectly possible, but YOU have to change what you are doing if you want change to happen. It can be a most enjoyable and pleasurable experience and can lead to life being really great!

In reply to rug:

How do you know that the current you is not just a construct of your desire for melodrama? Don't try to be anything


False clarity. Life just is. It is neither good nor bad. You are what you think

In reply to Taurig:

The more you choose to think one particular way, the easier it becomes to think in that way. It's like biting your nails. If you want to rewire your brain, then you actually have to practice, like learning touch typing. If you keep on typing with 2 fingers, then touch typing will never come naturally. There isn't a solution to find by thinking about it long and hard enough....

In reply to rug:
This means that any 'me' that I change myself into (via CBT or whatever) will be an artificial, or fake, version. At least by staying as I am, I am aware of what I am really like.

Nah. That isn't right. 'You' are many different things. You might act one way at work, one way with family, one way with mates - all of those people are just different and yet honest sides of you. It's just about learning to be able to enjoy being yourself. In fact, you can often be more yourself, because you become more accepting of yourself and comfortable in your own skin. People are falsest when they are on their guard and defensive...

In reply to stroppygob: You never seem to fail to find a smart arse often offensive response to posts which don't warrant it.

In reply to stroppygob:

Is that your professional opinion, or is this some attempt at 'tough love', to shake me out of my cosy self-pity and rouse me into action ?

I have been happy at various times in my life. They were enjoyable at the time, but (in my experience of life) they have been followed by periods of great pain. The root cause of these transitions has been due to deep character traits, so long standing and fundamental that I honestly do not believe that I can change them. So to me, to become a 'happy' person would be to lay myself open to the dreadful consequences. I believe that I am better off just remaining mildly depressed than taking another nose-dive.

So I believe what my experience has taught me, and you believe something different. I don't know that we can state categorically that the other is wrong about how things work in their respective lives.

At least we both seem to agree that I am a tw*t though, so that's a positive !

Rug

In reply to rug:


It is quite spooky as that is exactly how I felt!
My realisation (or part of it anyway) was that good is followed by bad and then back to good and then bad and eventually I will die quite possibly preceded by some painful illness. But it is neither good nor bad it just is. I realised that it is impossible to be happy all the time, illness, accidents and other troubles beset us. So instead of trying to be happy it was much better to work on being calm and sift the wheat from the chaff and so deal with the real problems and not get sidelined by the imagined ones. Sometimes emotions and feelings can take hold of us but if you roll with them and don't give them purchase they gradually lose their grip. Stand back and view them as "things" that come and go like leaves on the wind. I would let them wash over me like water swirls round a rock in a stream but does not move it. I learnt that melodrama never helps a situation.
Point it is if you are ok being mildly depressed carry on it is your choice. But if you really want to change then it is possible. Not easy, old habits are hard to break, but possible.

In reply to all:

My apologies for the lack of reply, I have been busy the last day or so and just had the time this morning to get on the computer.

I genuinely appreciate the responses, it helps to know you are not alone in how you feel. To answer a few questions, I have been to see my GP who has been fantastic. Unfortunately due to hospital bureaucracy he has struggled to get me the treatment we both feel I need, so I have an appointment booked with a private psychotherapist in a few weeks time. They specialise in CBT. It's not cheap, but if it works you can't really put a price on genuine relief from depression.

At the moment I am viewing things through a filter of low moods, but unlike some mentioned above, I don't find it a view of clarity, just a muddle of fear and confusion. This may or may not be the right thing to do, but I am consciously ruminating and reflecting so that when I meet the shrink I can give a true indication of how I'm feeling, with the hope that this will help her help me. When I feel good for a change, my mind has an tendency to go 'Ah, that wasn't so bad was it? Do I really need help?' The answer is yes, I do.

Last night I looked in the mirror and it felt like I was seeing me for the first time. Not that I didn't recognise myself, but rather than do the usual look at my hair while I'm doing it, check my teeth for food etc. that you do before heading out to work, I saw my whole face and realised this was the human animal I look like in the reflection. Again, like my inner state, it wasn't the mental picture that I had of myself at this age when I was younger. This doesn't bother me so much as my internal state, but it is interesting that it ties in with what I feel inside.

In reply to Taurig: Good luck with your appointment. Whilst you are waiting I have found walking helps a little. Also watching light comedy rather than heavy drama.

In reply to Taurig:

Excellent plan! Remember, it isn't them who is going to make the changes or who has any power, but you. You have the responsibility for change, but that also means that you have all the power too! It's like going to weight watchers - they can give you ideas on things to change, but it is you who has to actually decide to implement that change.

When I changed my ways of thinking - 9 years ago now - I felt very evangelical about it as it made such an enormous difference to my life and I not only haven't been depressed since, but I actually feel pretty joyous most days, which is pretty nice! I wanted everyone who had that same blackness and bleakness that I had had to benefit from my 'discovery'. However, I have noticed that most people just think 'you can't have actually been depressed, well, not like I am' or they think 'you can't actually be as happy as you make out, it must be a front'

So now, I occasionally say something where I feel that people are on the cusp of choosing to change for themselves, just to let them know that yes, it is perfectly possible, and no, they aren't chasing after a rainbow, and you don't have to be a happy clappy weirdo - it's quite a straightforward, scientifically supported process, just like dieting or weight training, or learning to play an instrument.

I really do wish you all the best with things and feel quite excited on your behalf!

In reply to Taurig: good luck with your treatment. Another thing I thought of is that there are many factors that can contribute to depression, including diet, environment , fitness, that all make it harder or easier to cope.

In reply to Al Evans: im so glad you have a good relationship with your sister and im kind of jealous that me & my sister dont! It sounds like your sibling relationship is a good one.

In reply to Taurig: No matter what I do I'll never climb Masters Edge

In reply to Taurig: Well done on taking steps to sort yourself out. Be Aware that a private psychotherapist may not be any more than someone who has done a short college course and can listen well.
Check their qualifications and preferably see if they are a member of a professional body like http://www.babcp.com
Not that I think your GP would palm you off to anyone dodgy, but worth checking that you will getting the best possible value from your money.
In my experience, which unfortunately has been fairly extensive, you need to communicate well with each other. You don't have to like each other, but it's crucial you can talk to them uninhibited and they understand where you are coming from. This doesn't always happen. It's a bit of a lottery.
The CBT approach is excellent - IME/IMHO. It's worked for me, and for my hubby when he had some problems after a stroke.

In reply to Taurig:

Its not all pre-determined.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036ypxw

Cheers, Loz

In reply to Ciderslider:

Me too, in fact thses days my great regret is that I never climbed Tophet Wall when I was capable of it (soloing it even)

In reply to Al Evans: Hey Al, I remember a while back you stating that Tatra was the hardest VS in the Uk - what about the best sandbag

In reply to Taurig: Over the past 9 months my life has been dominated by ill health, namely Ulcerative Colitis. When I was diagnosed in December last year, I thought I would get medication and it would go into remission as there is no cure; that unfortunately hasn't happened. I have to go for regular drug infusions which may continue for the rest of my life, I have to be checked on for signs of bowel cancer which means flexible sigmoidoscopies and the symptoms of the illness itself have had a massive impact on my life. I have learned to live with it in many ways, I try not to let it spoil my outdoor time but that is not always possible, I can be in a lot of pain and discomfort and it has been very difficult to come to terms with but I have no other option; I get on with it, live my life as best I can and have amazing friends and family who support me. I try not to put too much thought into how I feel on a day to day basis, I personally don't find that constructive but that's just my way of dealing with a very long term "problem". Enjoy life; the alternative ain't so good!!

In reply to Taurig:

I guess since I had a road to damascus moment in 2000 at the age of 27 I'm actually quite happy being me.

However the hardest thing I've had to accept was that the courts are utterly uninterested in justice. There's a team who are there to argue against you, there's your team, and there's the judge who is there to ensure everyone plays by the rules. No-one is there, or interested, in trying to ensure that the truth is discovered and the person in the right is exhonerated. The entire legal system is a sham.

All my life I've thought that the legal system gave a sh*te about justice, that if you were in the right then it would be found out in court. Possibly naive, but after a lifetime of films etc, where the good guy wins, eventually , sometimes against the odds, it was quite a shock to find officially-sanctioned "actually, the bad guy wins, usually, and the courts condone it". P.S. Sc*ew you.

...and this was only in a case of insurance fraud, and I was only a witness.

In reply to Taurig:

I'm a fatty.

In reply to John_Hat:

Correct. As they say, the administation of justice involves administration, not justice.

Not that the courts are actually any good at administration either. In fact, they are appalling in virtually every regard. The best you can say for them is that the costumes are quite quaint.

jcm

In reply to Taurig:

I've kinda realised that by early 40's most folk have kinda figured out that life isn't fair and that its very much a 'DIY' kinda thing ...... what you get out is dependant on what you put in.

I've stopped worrying about things I can't change or have no control over and started to look after myself more physically -- 'big boned' isnt an excuse that will live forever.

I've made numerous life mistakes but no longer regard them in a negative way but look on them more as a learning experience. My glass is always half full, I try to treat everyone as a friend, give without expecting to receive and am always up for trying new things.

My one anxiety is to get to being a duddering old fart and looking back and thinking "if only I'd tried XYZ ..."

In reply to Taurig:

That Britain is run by a tw@t and i need to leave b4 he turns everyone and everything to sh#t..

In reply to pauldr:

We'll miss your erudite and elegant prose.

In reply to stroppygob:

His prose his perfectly suited to the very un-erudite and inelegant subject-matter.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's one huge chip you have on your shoulder. Ever think of giving it a break? Your persona on ukc is becoming very one dimensional. Just a thought.

In reply to Skyfall:
I had a quick skim through this thread and realised that either I have a massive amount to be grateful for, since I don't think I've ever had to accept really tough stuff - or perhaps I'm gauche/ in denial. I'll never have children, but I'm not convinced I really wanted them. I suspect that my intellect and memory aren't what they were 15 years ago. I've got seriously into an interest for which I live in completely the wrong part of the country but in a while I intend to change that (not by taking up stamp-collecting). I'm in a marriage that isn't monogamous, which wasn't my choice and was very hard to deal with, but actually it works very well. Funny how things turn out.