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IMPORTANT NOTICE
urbanRock BRYCS 2003 FINAL
The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final – the walls themselves will probably be ready but other important facilities such as water, catering and toilets are the potential problem. These have to be up to Local Authority standards for a license to be granted to allow access to the building to the public .
With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final to the Welsh International Climbing Centre. This decision was taken after a lot of consultation with the management at Ratho and we (including the Ratho people) are all very disappointed that we have had to make this last minute change.
I appreciate that this change of venue will not suit everyone and we would all like to apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused. If anyone has made travel arrangements that cannot be cancelled please feel free to get in contact and we can discuss the matter further – I would ask that if possible you make this communication be email (graeme@thebmc.co.uk) or by mail rather than by phone.
Once again apologises to all concerned. I have emailed everyone that I can but please pass this on to anyone that may be affected who doesn't use email.
Also can people try and keep this thread at the top so people see it.
Graeme Alderson
BMC Competitions and Climbing Wall Officer
Direct line 0161 4383318
Email graeme@thebmc.co.uk
urbanRock BRYCS 2003 FINAL
The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final – the walls themselves will probably be ready but other important facilities such as water, catering and toilets are the potential problem. These have to be up to Local Authority standards for a license to be granted to allow access to the building to the public .
With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final to the Welsh International Climbing Centre. This decision was taken after a lot of consultation with the management at Ratho and we (including the Ratho people) are all very disappointed that we have had to make this last minute change.
I appreciate that this change of venue will not suit everyone and we would all like to apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused. If anyone has made travel arrangements that cannot be cancelled please feel free to get in contact and we can discuss the matter further – I would ask that if possible you make this communication be email (graeme@thebmc.co.uk) or by mail rather than by phone.
Once again apologises to all concerned. I have emailed everyone that I can but please pass this on to anyone that may be affected who doesn't use email.
Also can people try and keep this thread at the top so people see it.
Graeme Alderson
BMC Competitions and Climbing Wall Officer
Direct line 0161 4383318
Email graeme@thebmc.co.uk
In reply to graeme alderson: thats a real shame I was looking forward to seeing the new wall!
In reply to fuz: its more than a shame, it makes my job even more complicated (bump)
In reply to graeme alderson: How much has this costs the BMC?
In reply to graeme alderson:
hmm, Ratho or South Wales - quite a lot of rearranged travel needed for that one.
hmm, Ratho or South Wales - quite a lot of rearranged travel needed for that one.
In reply to l applat: How should I know the event hasn't happened yet.
In reply to tony: Ah but remember, technically, no one has been invited to the final yet so they shouldn't have been booking stuff.
Bump
Bump
In reply to graeme alderson: Ever heard of a predicition or a budget? Come on I pay my money I think I can stand the pain of finding out where the cash is going.
That I'm anti the whole BRYCS thing anyway is beside the point, didn't you think that the wall might be delayed, after all it's hardly breaking news is it 'british builder runs over schedule shocker'
That I'm anti the whole BRYCS thing anyway is beside the point, didn't you think that the wall might be delayed, after all it's hardly breaking news is it 'british builder runs over schedule shocker'
In reply to l applat: No never heard of budgeting or predicting things, I just make everything up as I go along.
In reply to l applat: Your subs (if you indeed are a member) do not pay for BRYCS, it is paid for out of entry fees, sponsorship and the decent grant that we recive from Sport England for Youth work.
In reply to graeme alderson: Re the membership issue, I could be quite put out by your tacit suggestion that I ma lying, but we'll let that pass.
So you spend the grant from SE on this, nice to know that it's being put to good use.
Out of interest how much of the grant is spent on brycs as opposed to getting your people out trad climbing? both in absolute terms and as a %?
So you spend the grant from SE on this, nice to know that it's being put to good use.
Out of interest how much of the grant is spent on brycs as opposed to getting your people out trad climbing? both in absolute terms and as a %?
In reply to l applat:>
Ratho? Delayed? Well considering it was first supposed to open in 2001, and then in 2002, and then this Spring, I suppose there was a vague hope they might finally have been able to forecast a completion date. But then again, the rumours up here have cast doubt on the chances of the place opening in September, and lo and behold - it's going to be late. Again.
> That I'm anti the whole BRYCS thing anyway is beside the point, didn't you think that the wall might be delayed, after all it's hardly breaking news is it 'british builder runs over schedule shocker'
Ratho? Delayed? Well considering it was first supposed to open in 2001, and then in 2002, and then this Spring, I suppose there was a vague hope they might finally have been able to forecast a completion date. But then again, the rumours up here have cast doubt on the chances of the place opening in September, and lo and behold - it's going to be late. Again.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Technically correct, but let's face it, there are quite a few who are as guaranteed as it's possible to be without formal invitations.
> (In reply to tony) Ah but remember, technically, no one has been invited to the final yet so they shouldn't have been booking stuff.
Technically correct, but let's face it, there are quite a few who are as guaranteed as it's possible to be without formal invitations.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Considering the history of the Ratho project, was there a Plan B in the not-entirely-impossible event of them failing to be able to accomodate the final, and did Plan B have a budget attached to it?
Considering the history of the Ratho project, was there a Plan B in the not-entirely-impossible event of them failing to be able to accomodate the final, and did Plan B have a budget attached to it?
In reply to l applat: I think you'll find that the SE grant is given for specific projects like BRYCS, give the man a break and stop trying to score cheap tedious points. It was much more fun when you spent your time winding up JCT - now you've gone soft and just trying to be controversial!
In reply to l applat: You post anon so how do I know whether you are a member - there have been other people of RT bleating on about spending 'their subs' and then when I have asked whether they are members they go 'fair cop guv'
Theoretically BRYCS will break even from the entry fees and sponsorship. There may be some increased costs in going to WICC, there may actually be a saving. Digs at WICC are cheaper and it is just as far to Edinburgh from here as it is to WICC. We will have to wait and see and see how much of the contigency that we have put by is needed. Damn gave the game away that we do actually use budgets.
Theoretically BRYCS will break even from the entry fees and sponsorship. There may be some increased costs in going to WICC, there may actually be a saving. Digs at WICC are cheaper and it is just as far to Edinburgh from here as it is to WICC. We will have to wait and see and see how much of the contigency that we have put by is needed. Damn gave the game away that we do actually use budgets.
In reply to l applat:
I think it might be worth noting that a large number of the climbers taking part in the comps are also quite accomplished outside .................but dont you worry , as most of them have moved beyond a diff you probably won't encounter them in the grat outdoors .......
> Out of interest how much of the grant is spent on brycs as opposed to getting your people out trad climbing? both in absolute terms and as a %?
I think it might be worth noting that a large number of the climbers taking part in the comps are also quite accomplished outside .................but dont you worry , as most of them have moved beyond a diff you probably won't encounter them in the grat outdoors .......
In reply to l applat:
I think it might be worth noting that a large number of the climbers taking part in the comps are also quite accomplished outside .................but dont you worry , as most of them have moved beyond a diff you probably won't encounter them in the great outdoors .......
> Out of interest how much of the grant is spent on brycs as opposed to getting your people out trad climbing? both in absolute terms and as a %?
I think it might be worth noting that a large number of the climbers taking part in the comps are also quite accomplished outside .................but dont you worry , as most of them have moved beyond a diff you probably won't encounter them in the great outdoors .......
In reply to tony: Lets wait and see how many people have actually pre booked stuff that can't be cancelled.
In reply to l applat: You will find the SE grants are for specific projects, the international leader placed protection meets got supported, as do competitions, as do trips to the greater ranges. You should be pretty pleased we actually get some of our taxes, or lottery back from central government. I am happy that all aspects of climbing are supported and I would rather the cash comes to climbing than soccer or another sport. Thats why the BMC is a democratic organisation, if you don't agree with where the money is spent you can turn up at a meeting and make your voice heard. Though you do have to be a member, and you can't remain anon.
In reply to graeme alderson:
What a pain. And not just about BRYCS.
It is less than 15 minutes drive from where I live (as opposed to more than half an hour to Alien Rock which is crowded).
What a pain. And not just about BRYCS.
It is less than 15 minutes drive from where I live (as opposed to more than half an hour to Alien Rock which is crowded).
In reply to graeme alderson:
so I'll take it that there wasn't a Plan B. Despite Ratho having demonstrated on numerous occasions their inability to produce deliverable schedules?
so I'll take it that there wasn't a Plan B. Despite Ratho having demonstrated on numerous occasions their inability to produce deliverable schedules?
In reply to tony: Plan B is in operation, find an alternative venue. We've done that whats your problem. Ratho is close to opening and we knew that there was a possibility that it wouldn't be open which is why Rathio have made this call with nearly a month to go. If Ratho had given me 1 weeks notice then ok we have a problem. What would you be saying if 2 months ago I had been pessimistic, moved the final and then Ratho actually opened on time.
Give me a break please but keep shunting this thread to the top.
Give me a break please but keep shunting this thread to the top.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Just spoke to the membership office and this is news to them. They are saying though that the wall will be open for end of September with all the changing room facilities req.
However, the gym will not open until the end of Oct and the mountain bike trails at the end of Nov.
If you have joined, you memebership will not start until the gym opens.
Yellofello
Just spoke to the membership office and this is news to them. They are saying though that the wall will be open for end of September with all the changing room facilities req.
However, the gym will not open until the end of Oct and the mountain bike trails at the end of Nov.
If you have joined, you memebership will not start until the gym opens.
Yellofello
In reply to graeme alderson: Things that go BUMP in the night!
In reply to graeme alderson:
I owe you an apology Graeme - I was thinking a bit more about this last night, and I was a bit out of order ysterday - sorry. My ire is directed at Ratho, who, as I've said on more than one ocassion, have proved spectacularly incapable of projecting accurate opening dates. And their PR is appalling, since they make so little effort to keep interested punters informed - 4 newsletters in the 2 years since I signed up for information is not good enough.
I owe you an apology Graeme - I was thinking a bit more about this last night, and I was a bit out of order ysterday - sorry. My ire is directed at Ratho, who, as I've said on more than one ocassion, have proved spectacularly incapable of projecting accurate opening dates. And their PR is appalling, since they make so little effort to keep interested punters informed - 4 newsletters in the 2 years since I signed up for information is not good enough.
In reply to Ian Dunn: Exactly when I get the opportunity to go the meetigs I do go and make my voice heard.
As for being pleased that the BMC gets some dosh? Why should I if the money is wasted on things like the guidebook fiasco the mountain exhibition etc etc.
The BMC largely comes across as a bunch of out of touch old farts seeking to protect their vested interests while giving a passing nod to what they perceive as 'the future' of british climbing.
Now I doubt this is vaild but you wouldn't have a vested interest would you squaqk being involved in the climbing wall industry?
As for being pleased that the BMC gets some dosh? Why should I if the money is wasted on things like the guidebook fiasco the mountain exhibition etc etc.
The BMC largely comes across as a bunch of out of touch old farts seeking to protect their vested interests while giving a passing nod to what they perceive as 'the future' of british climbing.
Now I doubt this is vaild but you wouldn't have a vested interest would you squaqk being involved in the climbing wall industry?
In reply to l applat:
On the bmc front at least they are doing something towards the future of Climbing, rather than making smug comments from your armchair
> The BMC largely comes across as a bunch of out of touch old farts seeking to protect their vested interests while giving a passing nod to what they perceive as 'the future' of british climbing.
>
As someone who appears to work for the law society , hanging out with a bunch of out of touch old farts, i would have thought would be right up your street...
>
On the bmc front at least they are doing something towards the future of Climbing, rather than making smug comments from your armchair
In reply to James Perry: So are you suggesting that I'm personally responsible for the massive losses the BMC has incurred just becuase I dared criticise the BMC????
As for doing things towards the future of british climbing, other than taking people climbing and teaching them traditional ethics perhaps you would set out what you think I should be doing.
As for doing things towards the future of british climbing, other than taking people climbing and teaching them traditional ethics perhaps you would set out what you think I should be doing.
In reply to l applat: I hope that you will go to the future policy review meetings that are been held around the country to get some views on what direction climbers want the BMC to go.
The money from the SE grant is not going to be wasted on things like the guidebook fiasco, the money that the BMC receives from grants goes directly to projects, such as the mountaineering exhibition. If you thought that was a waste well I am sure many of the visitors didn't and I personally would rather see my taxes go towards climbing related projects than other sports, or areas of government spending I disagree with.
I don't see many old farts with vested interests at any of the BMC's meeting I go to, and any that do should have disclosed their interest anyway.
I don't think that building and running a climbing centre where the only assistance we have received from the BMC or SE has been a letter of support, which we were very grateful for, counts as having a vested interest. Perhaps you aren't aware that I am no longer working for a climbing wall manfacturing company though even if I was i don't see why you should object to climbing wall projects receiving grants if they are eligible, which if they are commercial they generally aren't.
Why don't you use your real name when posting or do you have a vested interest you are trying to hide.
The money from the SE grant is not going to be wasted on things like the guidebook fiasco, the money that the BMC receives from grants goes directly to projects, such as the mountaineering exhibition. If you thought that was a waste well I am sure many of the visitors didn't and I personally would rather see my taxes go towards climbing related projects than other sports, or areas of government spending I disagree with.
I don't see many old farts with vested interests at any of the BMC's meeting I go to, and any that do should have disclosed their interest anyway.
I don't think that building and running a climbing centre where the only assistance we have received from the BMC or SE has been a letter of support, which we were very grateful for, counts as having a vested interest. Perhaps you aren't aware that I am no longer working for a climbing wall manfacturing company though even if I was i don't see why you should object to climbing wall projects receiving grants if they are eligible, which if they are commercial they generally aren't.
Why don't you use your real name when posting or do you have a vested interest you are trying to hide.
In reply to Ian Dunn: If you want to discuss in private or on the phone names and all email me at sloperclimbs@hotmail.com and no doubt we will converse.
As for old farts, at the recent meeting at Rockhall cottage the presence of Mr Wilson and the reactin of the crowd to his arrival suggested that there are a few people to whom the description 'old fart' can be properly applied [not Henry Folkard I hasten to add].
As for wasting the money on garbage such as the mountaineering exhibition rather than some other non climbing related garbage, is that the best defence you can come up with? or will you stoop to 'supporting' the scheme by saying that the people involved were really nice and tried jolly hard!
As for the vested interst jibe, no I was unaware that you no longer worked for Bendcrete.
Re climbing walls my view is that their proliferaiton has done more to damage climbing than almost anything else.
Can't climb without formal instruction, top roping is the only way in , wrapped in cotton way SPA eulogising ignorant drivel.
Why n
As for old farts, at the recent meeting at Rockhall cottage the presence of Mr Wilson and the reactin of the crowd to his arrival suggested that there are a few people to whom the description 'old fart' can be properly applied [not Henry Folkard I hasten to add].
As for wasting the money on garbage such as the mountaineering exhibition rather than some other non climbing related garbage, is that the best defence you can come up with? or will you stoop to 'supporting' the scheme by saying that the people involved were really nice and tried jolly hard!
As for the vested interst jibe, no I was unaware that you no longer worked for Bendcrete.
Re climbing walls my view is that their proliferaiton has done more to damage climbing than almost anything else.
Can't climb without formal instruction, top roping is the only way in , wrapped in cotton way SPA eulogising ignorant drivel.
Why n
In reply to l applat: I haven't worked for Bendcrete for over 5 years, I was in Entre-Prises for 4.5yrs before starting to build one of your beloved climbing walls in Jan this year. I can't see how walls have damaged climbing as far as I see the crags have similar if not less people on them now than they had years ago.
Without walls we certainly wouldn't have climbing at the level that it has reached today both traditional and sport climbing.
Without walls we certainly wouldn't have climbing at the level that it has reached today both traditional and sport climbing.
In reply to Ian Dunn: my view is that the internal combustion engine has done more to damage climbing than anything else. And the fact that we allow the proles out from the city onto the grouse moors. Bring back the birch & child chimney sweeps and down with modern ideas.
In reply to Ian Dunn: If you can't see how walls have damaged climbing then you're either not looking hard enough or intentionally myopic.
Try answering the following questions,
Have walls diluted the acceptance of risk in climbers?
Have walls inreased the tolerance to top roping?
Have walls given people the idea that you need to have been on a course to go climbing?
Have wall given people the idea that you cannot develop without removing risk?
As for the numbers of climbers it is my view that the numbers of climbers has increased considerably and that the erosion of traditional ethics has meant that the damage they have and are causing is increasing.
Yes climbing walls have pushed standards but at what cost, thousands of people top roping routes as hard asVS because they want to push their grade, routes like Sunset and Three Pebble Slab getting ruined because it's 'sport for all' why should I have to take the risk etc etc etc.
Try answering the following questions,
Have walls diluted the acceptance of risk in climbers?
Have walls inreased the tolerance to top roping?
Have walls given people the idea that you need to have been on a course to go climbing?
Have wall given people the idea that you cannot develop without removing risk?
As for the numbers of climbers it is my view that the numbers of climbers has increased considerably and that the erosion of traditional ethics has meant that the damage they have and are causing is increasing.
Yes climbing walls have pushed standards but at what cost, thousands of people top roping routes as hard asVS because they want to push their grade, routes like Sunset and Three Pebble Slab getting ruined because it's 'sport for all' why should I have to take the risk etc etc etc.
In reply to graeme alderson: What a jape, however old chum, I would sugegst a greater degree of sophisticaiton in your sophistry.
I'm not arguing about 'progress' rather that the BMC is misgided and wasting what is likely to be a finite resource.
I'm not arguing about 'progress' rather that the BMC is misgided and wasting what is likely to be a finite resource.
In reply to l applat:
So at when walls were first conceived, the BMC should've stood up and declared them the spawn of satan. And hindered the development of walls as much as possible.
That would've gone down well with climbers. Not.
Assume you never use walls by the way?
So at when walls were first conceived, the BMC should've stood up and declared them the spawn of satan. And hindered the development of walls as much as possible.
That would've gone down well with climbers. Not.
Assume you never use walls by the way?
In reply to l applat:
A few Quick Points :
1 Informed Critism is always Beneficial and Constrctive( my issue is how informed you are ?)
2 one of the best things about climbing is the diverse nature of the people involved in it, you have no right to decide who is right or wrong for climbing.
3 Walls enable people to try climbing who would not normally have that opportunity i feel this is a good thing .
4 What are traditional ethics in your book hob nails ?
5 are you honestly telling me you have never top roped a route ?
> (In reply to James Perry) So are you suggesting that I'm personally responsible for the massive losses the BMC has incurred just becuase I dared criticise the BMC????
>
> As for doing things towards the future of british climbing, other than taking people climbing and teaching them traditional ethics perhaps you would set out what you think I should be doing.
>
> As for doing things towards the future of british climbing, other than taking people climbing and teaching them traditional ethics perhaps you would set out what you think I should be doing.
A few Quick Points :
1 Informed Critism is always Beneficial and Constrctive( my issue is how informed you are ?)
2 one of the best things about climbing is the diverse nature of the people involved in it, you have no right to decide who is right or wrong for climbing.
3 Walls enable people to try climbing who would not normally have that opportunity i feel this is a good thing .
4 What are traditional ethics in your book hob nails ?
5 are you honestly telling me you have never top roped a route ?
In reply to James Perry:
1. reasonably well infromed
2. I'm not seeking to limit who goes climbing but they have to accept what they're doing and the inherent risks,
3. No true at all, how did people climb before walls? er they went to the rocks and got on with it. How well informed are you?
4. What are traditional ethics in your book hob nails ? I preumse you mean what is my diea of a traditional ethic, on sight ground up climbing and accepting 'the price of admission' might be some pain or worse.
5. Yes, but I'm not proud of it.
1. reasonably well infromed
2. I'm not seeking to limit who goes climbing but they have to accept what they're doing and the inherent risks,
3. No true at all, how did people climb before walls? er they went to the rocks and got on with it. How well informed are you?
4. What are traditional ethics in your book hob nails ? I preumse you mean what is my diea of a traditional ethic, on sight ground up climbing and accepting 'the price of admission' might be some pain or worse.
5. Yes, but I'm not proud of it.
In reply to alex: Very rarely indeed but that's not the issue and you purile attemnpts at moving the goal posts are most illuminating, much easier than answering a direct question.
So I'll ask it again so you evasions and faux outagre can beeven more self evident.
How much is the BMC spending on the BRYCS comps, grnats and other monies distinuished.
Now I'm off for a pint.
So I'll ask it again so you evasions and faux outagre can beeven more self evident.
How much is the BMC spending on the BRYCS comps, grnats and other monies distinuished.
Now I'm off for a pint.
In reply to l applat:
> (In reply to James Perry)
>
> 1. reasonably well infromed - well who are you and enable us to judge how well informed you are
> 2. I'm not seeking to limit who goes climbing but they have to accept what they're doing and the inherent risks,- Most people who go climbing accept risk and if they dont so what
> 3. No true at all, how did people climb before walls? er they went to the rocks and got on with it- Dry stone walls, Pullup bars people have always trained in some form or anoother
How well informed are you? - i went to a wall once
>
> 1. reasonably well infromed - well who are you and enable us to judge how well informed you are
> 2. I'm not seeking to limit who goes climbing but they have to accept what they're doing and the inherent risks,- Most people who go climbing accept risk and if they dont so what
> 3. No true at all, how did people climb before walls? er they went to the rocks and got on with it- Dry stone walls, Pullup bars people have always trained in some form or anoother
> 4. What are traditional ethics in your book hob nails ? I preumse you mean what is my diea of a traditional ethic, on sight ground up climbing and accepting 'the price of admission' might be some pain or worse.- The price of admission what sort of Rubbish is this have you ever been at the sharpend
> 5. Yes, but I'm not proud of it. - then you have issues walls are part of the mix especially in places like London where there isnt any decent rock.
> 5. Yes, but I'm not proud of it. - then you have issues walls are part of the mix especially in places like London where there isnt any decent rock.
In reply to l applat:
How has that affected you and your climbing?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
I've been climbing for probably as long as you and I'd say I'm seeing no more people climbing at Gogarth, Cloggy the Lakes than when I started. I'm sure there are more climbers around but that doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. I love climbing walls and think they are the best thing to have ever happened to climbing.
> Have walls diluted the acceptance of risk in climbers?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
> Have walls inreased the tolerance to top roping?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
> Have walls given people the idea that you need to have been on a course to go climbing?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
> Have wall given people the idea that you cannot develop without removing risk?
How has that affected you and your climbing?
I've been climbing for probably as long as you and I'd say I'm seeing no more people climbing at Gogarth, Cloggy the Lakes than when I started. I'm sure there are more climbers around but that doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. I love climbing walls and think they are the best thing to have ever happened to climbing.
In reply to l applat:
AKA dogma
> I preumse you mean what is my diea of a traditional ethic, on sight ground up climbing and accepting 'the price of admission' might be some pain or worse.
AKA dogma
In reply to l applat: In answer to your questions.
No
Probably but top roping has always existed.
No
No E8 on sight by Dave Birkett seams pretty risky to me.
Many crags seam quieter than they were in my opinon.
Your examples of two routes that were top roped befopre their first ascents why stop others top roping them, or would your rather they diluted the risk by putting a few bolts in!
No
Probably but top roping has always existed.
No
No E8 on sight by Dave Birkett seams pretty risky to me.
Many crags seam quieter than they were in my opinon.
Your examples of two routes that were top roped befopre their first ascents why stop others top roping them, or would your rather they diluted the risk by putting a few bolts in!
In reply to graeme alderson:
we seem to have got off the point a little but at least all this banter is keeping the notice up near the top... Bump bump.
we seem to have got off the point a little but at least all this banter is keeping the notice up near the top... Bump bump.
In reply to l applat:
Bugger me.
Never thought I'd see the day but Sloper's just said something I completely agree with. I'm off for a lie down.
G
Bugger me.
Never thought I'd see the day but Sloper's just said something I completely agree with. I'm off for a lie down.
G
In reply to Stu_BMC_Info: so you are IC IC?
In reply to Stu_BMC_Info: As informaiton co-ordinator pehaps you can tell us how much the BMC has / will spend on the BRYCS including grants boththis year and in other years.
As for James etc, I don't think I know you and it's reasonably likely you don't know me.
I however avoided inferring that you are ill informed, you have saved me the trouble.
As for everyone else, yes I'm dogmatic about climbing largely because I think the traditional ethic is worth protecting.
Squawk et al, yes routes might have been top roped in the past or indeed chipped but we've moved on or do you think the onsighting ethic has reached its zenith and we should all 'headpoint' our first HVS's because in the 50's this was cutting edge?
As for James etc, I don't think I know you and it's reasonably likely you don't know me.
I however avoided inferring that you are ill informed, you have saved me the trouble.
As for everyone else, yes I'm dogmatic about climbing largely because I think the traditional ethic is worth protecting.
Squawk et al, yes routes might have been top roped in the past or indeed chipped but we've moved on or do you think the onsighting ethic has reached its zenith and we should all 'headpoint' our first HVS's because in the 50's this was cutting edge?
In reply to Ian Hill:
Indoor Competitions Information Coordinator?
Yes.
Also, A&C IC, TC IC, PO IC, GB IC, YP IC and IS IC.
no prizes for guessing them all though!
Indoor Competitions Information Coordinator?
Yes.
Also, A&C IC, TC IC, PO IC, GB IC, YP IC and IS IC.
no prizes for guessing them all though!
In reply to l applat: PLease read what I have already said.
In reply to Stu_BMC_Info: Are you GJ IC
In reply to l applat:
Unfortunately I can't, not being party to such information, despite being an Information Coordinator..
> (In reply to Stu_BMC_Info) As informaiton co-ordinator pehaps you can tell us how much the BMC has / will spend on the BRYCS including grants boththis year and in other years.
Unfortunately I can't, not being party to such information, despite being an Information Coordinator..
In reply to graeme alderson:
This out-of-touch old fart was going to ask what BRYCS is - since your post doesn't make this clear - but I did a web search instead and now I know.
However, can I point out that what I assume is the official website at http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/youth/brycs2003.html still lists the old venue for the final? Might be a good idea to get that changed ...
> urbanRock BRYCS 2003 FINAL
>
> The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is
> not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final ...
>
> With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final ...
>
> The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is
> not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final ...
>
> With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final ...
This out-of-touch old fart was going to ask what BRYCS is - since your post doesn't make this clear - but I did a web search instead and now I know.
However, can I point out that what I assume is the official website at http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/youth/brycs2003.html still lists the old venue for the final? Might be a good idea to get that changed ...
In reply to l applat:
Just another little thought. You'd better avoid stanage for the next few months, cos you'll see the disgusting practice of me top-roping exclusively for about 2 months.
Haven't got any intention of leading until next year..... probably. Sorry.
But just out of interest, what do you do when you encounter someone who dares to infringe on your view of climbing? And don't tell me you just walk away, surely a man of your views must turn to direct action? What precautions should I take to avoid being lynched by a mob of frenzied anti-top ropers?
Just another little thought. You'd better avoid stanage for the next few months, cos you'll see the disgusting practice of me top-roping exclusively for about 2 months.
Haven't got any intention of leading until next year..... probably. Sorry.
But just out of interest, what do you do when you encounter someone who dares to infringe on your view of climbing? And don't tell me you just walk away, surely a man of your views must turn to direct action? What precautions should I take to avoid being lynched by a mob of frenzied anti-top ropers?
In reply to Anonymous: Ah that would be done to the MOuntaineering Council of Scotland to sort.
In reply to graeme alderson:
No it's not. It's your fault. Don't you remember? Everything is always your fault.
No it's not. It's your fault. Don't you remember? Everything is always your fault.
In reply to alex: even your premature male patent baldness, oh come on.
In reply to alex: It depends sometimes I try and pursuade them to go for the onsight sometimes I just move to another area.
What's your excuse for top roping?
What's your excuse for top roping?
In reply to alex: If you have to ask the question you won't understand the answer.
In reply to l applat:
Well as i have posted under my name atleast i am willing to stand up and be counted for my views.
As for inferring i am ill informed , the Comments you made earlier about Price of admission make me suspect you haven got a clue....
However if you are Willing to get up from your armchair and be counted give me a shout , rather than preaching anomamously from your soap box about a subject you know nothing about.....
Ps i First climbed Three pebble slab in the 80's and i Thought it was Quite polished then......
>
> As for James etc, I don't think I know you and it's reasonably likely you don't know me.
>
> I however avoided inferring that you are ill informed, you have saved me the trouble.
>
> As for James etc, I don't think I know you and it's reasonably likely you don't know me.
>
> I however avoided inferring that you are ill informed, you have saved me the trouble.
>
Well as i have posted under my name atleast i am willing to stand up and be counted for my views.
As for inferring i am ill informed , the Comments you made earlier about Price of admission make me suspect you haven got a clue....
However if you are Willing to get up from your armchair and be counted give me a shout , rather than preaching anomamously from your soap box about a subject you know nothing about.....
Ps i First climbed Three pebble slab in the 80's and i Thought it was Quite polished then......
In reply to l applat:
Normally you spout rubbish by the gallon (much like myself) but i have to say i agree with most of what you have said here. Doesn't mean we'll be sharing a shower tho. unless your a fiesty little minx with pert breasts that is.
Normally you spout rubbish by the gallon (much like myself) but i have to say i agree with most of what you have said here. Doesn't mean we'll be sharing a shower tho. unless your a fiesty little minx with pert breasts that is.
In reply to James Perry: Well as i have posted under my name atleast i am willing to stand up and be counted for my views.
Well aren't you *the man*......
As for willing to get out of my arm chair I think I can get out climbing the weekend after next, perhaps you'd care to join me (and Horse if he can make it) and we can discuss this is in a more appropriate forum.
Well aren't you *the man*......
As for willing to get out of my arm chair I think I can get out climbing the weekend after next, perhaps you'd care to join me (and Horse if he can make it) and we can discuss this is in a more appropriate forum.
In reply to l applat:
That's what everyone always says. Maybe I am stupid.
Do hope that someone sticks their nose in when I'm top-roping though. Be brilliant. I'll enjoy going off on one. In fact I can't wait.
That's what everyone always says. Maybe I am stupid.
Do hope that someone sticks their nose in when I'm top-roping though. Be brilliant. I'll enjoy going off on one. In fact I can't wait.
In reply to alex: come for a few beers with me and horse, we'll even buy you a shandy.
In reply to GFoz:
Nope, no piccies of me on here...
I'll take you up on that shandy. I can show you the 5 inch scar in my groin too....yep, sad to say, I do have an excuse... (this time!)
Nope, no piccies of me on here...
I'll take you up on that shandy. I can show you the 5 inch scar in my groin too....yep, sad to say, I do have an excuse... (this time!)
In reply to GFoz: the piccy of alex top roping little cham is your man
In reply to alex: If you can top rope you can second if not lead, only a matter of commitment and adjusting your choice of routes accordingly.
Are you manchester based?
Are you manchester based?
In reply to anon:
yeah, it's one of my projects. Have been a bit busy working flying buttress though, so haven't had time to get on it this year.
yeah, it's one of my projects. Have been a bit busy working flying buttress though, so haven't had time to get on it this year.
In reply to l applat:>
well as for the man comment i am happy to have given you something to aspire to .
as far as the weekend after next i am in london I am afraid however more than happy to catch up for a beer to discuss things furthur, or if you are as i suspect a closet wall user i can normally be found at the Castle refining my evil arts on a tuesday or a thursday evening
> Well aren't you *the man*......
>
> As for willing to get out of my arm chair I think I can get out climbing the weekend after next, perhaps you'd care to join me (and Horse if he can make it) and we can discuss this is in a more appropriate forum.
>
> As for willing to get out of my arm chair I think I can get out climbing the weekend after next, perhaps you'd care to join me (and Horse if he can make it) and we can discuss this is in a more appropriate forum.
well as for the man comment i am happy to have given you something to aspire to .
as far as the weekend after next i am in london I am afraid however more than happy to catch up for a beer to discuss things furthur, or if you are as i suspect a closet wall user i can normally be found at the Castle refining my evil arts on a tuesday or a thursday evening
In reply to l applat:
Has it not occured to you that some people might prefer to top rope than lead or second. I was at Curbar on sunday and dropped a top rope down a route I had no interest in leading. Why should that bother you and in what possible way could it be detremental to British climbing?
Has it not occured to you that some people might prefer to top rope than lead or second. I was at Curbar on sunday and dropped a top rope down a route I had no interest in leading. Why should that bother you and in what possible way could it be detremental to British climbing?
In reply to l applat:
Lead? I can't even put a harness on right now my man. And believe me, the very idea of a fall makes me sick.
Lead? I can't even put a harness on right now my man. And believe me, the very idea of a fall makes me sick.
In reply to James Perry: one visit to the wall in the last 6 months so very much in the closet.
You'll normally find me on the grit or if, as I suspect you're a closet tea room habituee I'll find you n the tea rooms at outside, let me guess you'll be reading about some big wall epic.
You'll normally find me on the grit or if, as I suspect you're a closet tea room habituee I'll find you n the tea rooms at outside, let me guess you'll be reading about some big wall epic.
In reply to Tyler: If it was a route that has been lead onsight then it bothers me not that you did it but because the more peopl edo that the more it becomes acceptable as the default mode.
Why, if you had no intention of leading it did you want to top rope it?
Anyway, can someone from the BMC explain how much they spent last year on BRYCs (grant and otherwise) and what the projeciton / contingency fund is this year?
Why, if you had no intention of leading it did you want to top rope it?
Anyway, can someone from the BMC explain how much they spent last year on BRYCs (grant and otherwise) and what the projeciton / contingency fund is this year?
In reply to alex: Fair play, but when you can second rather than top rope, you know it makes sense.
In reply to l applat: As I have already said yesterday.
"Theoretically BRYCS will break even from the entry fees and sponsorship. There may be some increased costs in going to WICC, there may actually be a saving. Digs at WICC are cheaper and it is just as far to Edinburgh from here as it is to WICC. We will have to wait and see and see how much of the contigency that we have put by is needed. Damn gave the game away that we do actually use budgets."
"Theoretically BRYCS will break even from the entry fees and sponsorship. There may be some increased costs in going to WICC, there may actually be a saving. Digs at WICC are cheaper and it is just as far to Edinburgh from here as it is to WICC. We will have to wait and see and see how much of the contigency that we have put by is needed. Damn gave the game away that we do actually use budgets."
In reply to l applat:
I thought it might be a good bit of exercise and it is a famous route (that has been lead on sight by many) and I wanted to know what it was like so I top roped it. No harm done even if it does lead to top roping becoming the norm.
> Why, if you had no intention of leading it did you want to top rope it?
I thought it might be a good bit of exercise and it is a famous route (that has been lead on sight by many) and I wanted to know what it was like so I top roped it. No harm done even if it does lead to top roping becoming the norm.
In reply to graeme alderson:
I wouldn't worry about it the BRYCS are just the sort of thing the BMC should be involved with
I wouldn't worry about it the BRYCS are just the sort of thing the BMC should be involved with
In reply to alex: When L&SE wrote its major Climbing Walls Report in 1992 (of which I was one of the authors) we did consider the downside of promoting larger climbing walls, and the AC did discuss this, with a number of people warning that we would come to regret it - that they were indeed the spawn of satan.
I think the four points I applat makes are valid. Wall trained new climbers do bring a different attitude to climbing; though I'm not sure how much this matters, if at all.
However, the major downside we identified was that the number of people climbing on a limited resource would rise dramatically, and from my own, obviously limited, experience, I don't think this has happened. In the places I mostly climb in range of South London - Portland, Swanage, the Wye Valley mostly - I would say the number of people using them has fallen from ten to fifteen years ago. Sardinia is busy though.
So all in all, I have to say I'm quite pleased with what we wrote in 1992, without which the Castle probably wouldn't have been built.
Andrew
I think the four points I applat makes are valid. Wall trained new climbers do bring a different attitude to climbing; though I'm not sure how much this matters, if at all.
However, the major downside we identified was that the number of people climbing on a limited resource would rise dramatically, and from my own, obviously limited, experience, I don't think this has happened. In the places I mostly climb in range of South London - Portland, Swanage, the Wye Valley mostly - I would say the number of people using them has fallen from ten to fifteen years ago. Sardinia is busy though.
So all in all, I have to say I'm quite pleased with what we wrote in 1992, without which the Castle probably wouldn't have been built.
Andrew
In reply to l applat:
well You have got me there I am partial to a Bacon Sandwich in the morning however coffee is more my morning poison , and i have been known to read the odd big wall epic and been in a couple myself .
I really think that i might be able to learn from You as the only experiance i have is :
- 16,years of Climbing on grit/limestone/granite ext
- Competition Routesetting
- bold Gritstone Routes onsight
- Sport Climbing
- A number Of first ascents and developing Crags
- Unfortunately having helped put together guide books
- mountaineering
- Ice Climbing
> (In reply to James Perry) one visit to the wall in the last 6 months so very much in the closet.
>
> You'll normally find me on the grit or if, as I suspect you're a closet tea room habituee I'll find you n the tea rooms at outside, let me guess you'll be reading about some big wall epic.
>
> You'll normally find me on the grit or if, as I suspect you're a closet tea room habituee I'll find you n the tea rooms at outside, let me guess you'll be reading about some big wall epic.
well You have got me there I am partial to a Bacon Sandwich in the morning however coffee is more my morning poison , and i have been known to read the odd big wall epic and been in a couple myself .
I really think that i might be able to learn from You as the only experiance i have is :
- 16,years of Climbing on grit/limestone/granite ext
- Competition Routesetting
- bold Gritstone Routes onsight
- Sport Climbing
- A number Of first ascents and developing Crags
- Unfortunately having helped put together guide books
- mountaineering
- Ice Climbing
In reply to graeme alderson: Ok for the last period for which agreed accounts are available please state whether or not the 'contingency' was called up and if so to what extent. Please also set out for the current accounting period the 'number' set aside for contingencies viz a viz the BRYCS.
It's a simple question why won't you answer it?
It's a simple question why won't you answer it?
In reply to James Perry: Congratulations!
In 20 years of climbing on grit, granite, gabbro, slate, sandstone, Competition Routesetting, bold Gritstone Routes onsight at least one first ascent unfortunately having avoided helping put together guide books and mountaineering and ice climbing I must have missed the bit that says promoting indoor competitons for kids is what *real* climbing is about.
In 20 years of climbing on grit, granite, gabbro, slate, sandstone, Competition Routesetting, bold Gritstone Routes onsight at least one first ascent unfortunately having avoided helping put together guide books and mountaineering and ice climbing I must have missed the bit that says promoting indoor competitons for kids is what *real* climbing is about.
In reply to James Perry: Ps if this is about willy waving I'm hung like a rogue elephant.
In reply to l applat: Whats your name
In reply to graeme alderson: Come on its a simple question why won't you answer it.
In reply to l applat:
Hey. Bet Graeme could arrange for you to visit a comp, then you could meet the kids. Then you could see if it was "real" or not.
And in exchange, you get to take one lucky competitor out on a bold Grit route.
Hey. Bet Graeme could arrange for you to visit a comp, then you could meet the kids. Then you could see if it was "real" or not.
And in exchange, you get to take one lucky competitor out on a bold Grit route.
In reply to l applat:
You didn't miss the bit "that says promoting indoor competitons for kids is what *real* climbing is about" becuase obviously there is no such thing as real climbing. There is a large group of people who indulge in an activity that are loosly called climbers, and none of these activities are any more "real" than others. The BMC for its part gets cash from these climbers and are answerable to them. That the membership allows them to support BRYCS indicates that that is what the membership wants. It might not sit well with you and leave you feeling out of touch and bitter but tough.
You didn't miss the bit "that says promoting indoor competitons for kids is what *real* climbing is about" becuase obviously there is no such thing as real climbing. There is a large group of people who indulge in an activity that are loosly called climbers, and none of these activities are any more "real" than others. The BMC for its part gets cash from these climbers and are answerable to them. That the membership allows them to support BRYCS indicates that that is what the membership wants. It might not sit well with you and leave you feeling out of touch and bitter but tough.
In reply to graeme alderson: email me and find out, sloperclimbs@hotmail.com i'll even give you my phone number if you're really bothered, but if you don't want to engage in a private conversation would you consider it unethical to find out from my membersahip number?
In reply to l applat: I would argue that the ethics now are much higher than they were in the fifties after all how many of the Not Led ie top roped climbs of the past have been on sight led or soloed now. I don't understand why seconding is ok but top roping is tabou. Please explain.
In reply to l applat:
I think you have missed the point my own opinion of my self worth will never be affected by someone who hasnt got even the courage in his convictions to identify himself ...
The point i make is as follows Ive done a lot of Climbing , you are dismissing competitions Validity from your own warped sense of what climbing is about I think there is a place for Competitions in climbing and no one is asking you to involve yourself in them ...
> (In reply to James Perry) Ps if this is about willy waving I'm hung like a rogue elephant.
I think you have missed the point my own opinion of my self worth will never be affected by someone who hasnt got even the courage in his convictions to identify himself ...
The point i make is as follows Ive done a lot of Climbing , you are dismissing competitions Validity from your own warped sense of what climbing is about I think there is a place for Competitions in climbing and no one is asking you to involve yourself in them ...
In reply to Tyler:
so then if sloper as a member wants to voice concern about the spending of his membership fees it's of no consequence.
then how does this square with "That the membership allows them to support BRYCS indicates that that is what the membership wants"
bit of a Catch 22, no?
so then if sloper as a member wants to voice concern about the spending of his membership fees it's of no consequence.
then how does this square with "That the membership allows them to support BRYCS indicates that that is what the membership wants"
bit of a Catch 22, no?
In reply to Ian Dunn: re seconding as opposed to top roping, the former involveds leading whereas the latter does not.
Of course ethics have moved on the point is that in my experience top roping is corrosive to the 'bold' aspect of climbing particularly on grit. To me the pernicious acceptance of the validy of a top roped 'ascent' will in due course make risk management take a back seat to risk avoidance.
Am I paranoid, but ther have been proposals for compulsary insurance for climbers in the past and I can 1005 gaurantee that if this were effected then the insurane companies would want mandatory qualificaiton as a condition of insurance and the obligaiton not to solo etc following on behind.
So it's not a question of wethre top ropingis per se taboo [I think at the cutting edge it's entirely proper] rather that we stand the risk of moving to a situation where many 'climbers' think that climbing is not dangerous (and then think they can sue when it goes belly up)
Of course ethics have moved on the point is that in my experience top roping is corrosive to the 'bold' aspect of climbing particularly on grit. To me the pernicious acceptance of the validy of a top roped 'ascent' will in due course make risk management take a back seat to risk avoidance.
Am I paranoid, but ther have been proposals for compulsary insurance for climbers in the past and I can 1005 gaurantee that if this were effected then the insurane companies would want mandatory qualificaiton as a condition of insurance and the obligaiton not to solo etc following on behind.
So it's not a question of wethre top ropingis per se taboo [I think at the cutting edge it's entirely proper] rather that we stand the risk of moving to a situation where many 'climbers' think that climbing is not dangerous (and then think they can sue when it goes belly up)
In reply to Punter Hitch:
Not at all, Slopers concerns are of no consequence as he is a lone voice and the BMC can not have its policy dictated by one person no matter how loud they shout however if there are enough people sharing Slopers concerns and they make themselves heard then the BMC would have to re think the policy. This is all so obvious I feel stupid replying to your post as I'm sure you are already aware of the concept of democracy.
Not at all, Slopers concerns are of no consequence as he is a lone voice and the BMC can not have its policy dictated by one person no matter how loud they shout however if there are enough people sharing Slopers concerns and they make themselves heard then the BMC would have to re think the policy. This is all so obvious I feel stupid replying to your post as I'm sure you are already aware of the concept of democracy.
In reply to James Perry: It's not that I think that you've missed my point, rather that you lack the intellectual capacity to understand it.
As for the thing about courage, a poor attempt at an insult. Many people who post here know me and indeed I make my 'e persona' known to anyone who asks. If you want to know who I am email sloperclimbs@hotmail, simple really.
My climbing experience is utterly irrelevant.
My view is that the BMC should be directing what is a limited and no doubt scarce resource at getting children, yoof or what ever int the outside and lettering them climb on real rock and getting the enourmous psycho-social benefits that climbing often brings.
It is my view that the indoor comps do not satisfy these objectives.
As for the thing about courage, a poor attempt at an insult. Many people who post here know me and indeed I make my 'e persona' known to anyone who asks. If you want to know who I am email sloperclimbs@hotmail, simple really.
My climbing experience is utterly irrelevant.
My view is that the BMC should be directing what is a limited and no doubt scarce resource at getting children, yoof or what ever int the outside and lettering them climb on real rock and getting the enourmous psycho-social benefits that climbing often brings.
It is my view that the indoor comps do not satisfy these objectives.
In reply to l applat: What is cutting edge for an E1 leader is piss for an E8 leader so who is allowed to top rope what?
If only the very best are allowed to top rope things they find hard there is no possibility for others to get the experience to get up to the level required to on-sight or solo very hard routes. You can't allow the best to top rope their hard routes and not allow a less talented climber not to top rope their hard routes. You are not damaging the rock if you are careful and its better to keep our diverse sport as it is.
If only the very best are allowed to top rope things they find hard there is no possibility for others to get the experience to get up to the level required to on-sight or solo very hard routes. You can't allow the best to top rope their hard routes and not allow a less talented climber not to top rope their hard routes. You are not damaging the rock if you are careful and its better to keep our diverse sport as it is.
In reply to Tyler: Ever heard of Ken Wilson?
As for lone voice many agree with my sentiments if not the manner inw hich they have been put, eg Mr GFoz above. There is also the 'silent' element of the membership who do not have the option of amking their views known.
As for lone voice many agree with my sentiments if not the manner inw hich they have been put, eg Mr GFoz above. There is also the 'silent' element of the membership who do not have the option of amking their views known.
In reply to Ian Dunn: I've said it beofre no top roping on a route that has been onsighted.
As for progressing throught the grades what utter cock.
You start say leading Vdiff, then some severes, VS, HVS a lot of E1's then some 2's etc and lo! you're onto the ahrder stuff.
I'm not against walls per se or competitions per se I just think this is not the role of the BMC, particularly if they make a hash of it and lose lots of money.
Lets face it if they can't do guidebooks properly, well......
As for progressing throught the grades what utter cock.
You start say leading Vdiff, then some severes, VS, HVS a lot of E1's then some 2's etc and lo! you're onto the ahrder stuff.
I'm not against walls per se or competitions per se I just think this is not the role of the BMC, particularly if they make a hash of it and lose lots of money.
Lets face it if they can't do guidebooks properly, well......
In reply to l applat:
Thank you, a perfect example of why lone voices should not dictate policy.
I'm sure many agree with you prehaps even the majority but if that rabble do not feel strongly enough to organise themselves into an effective opposition they can't really cry foul if their views are not heard. Given that many people seem to think the BMC is run by dinosaurs, and giventhat you think many people share your views, it can't be too hard over turn any policy which favours indoor competitions, you'd be pushing at an open door surely?
> Ever heard of Ken Wilson?
Thank you, a perfect example of why lone voices should not dictate policy.
I'm sure many agree with you prehaps even the majority but if that rabble do not feel strongly enough to organise themselves into an effective opposition they can't really cry foul if their views are not heard. Given that many people seem to think the BMC is run by dinosaurs, and giventhat you think many people share your views, it can't be too hard over turn any policy which favours indoor competitions, you'd be pushing at an open door surely?
In reply to l applat: You are the one asking questions, email me with your name and membership number and I will consider answering you.
Also I am a BMC member (and no I have to pay). I disagree with you on many points. Whose view is more valid.
Also I am a BMC member (and no I have to pay). I disagree with you on many points. Whose view is more valid.
In reply to l applat:
The problem is that guide books were done by comittee, whats need is a lone voice to dictate guide book policy....oh, bugger
> Lets face it if they can't do guidebooks properly, well......
The problem is that guide books were done by comittee, whats need is a lone voice to dictate guide book policy....oh, bugger
In reply to l applat: I top roped an E5 a few weeks ago that I am sure has been onsighted. I enjoyed the route and was quite pleased I wasn't soloing, there was no gear, when I messed my hands up after the crux. I did the route in one go and I am happy with how I climbed it. What's wrong with what I did? Sure a climber who onsights this route has my respect but I didn't want to injure myself and I enjoyed the route.
If you go and solo the route onsight I will be the first to congratulate you.
PS Ken Wilson top ropes
If you go and solo the route onsight I will be the first to congratulate you.
PS Ken Wilson top ropes
In reply to l applat:
I think Ian Dunn pointd out that the UK Sport funding was for certain things, specifically :-
"Exchequer funding helps support: staffing and management structures; safety and ethical standards; non-Lottery funded elite squads; coach education and development; and modernisation of governing bodies."
The BRYCS seems a good use of this money, if needed. At least it keeps the kids indoors.
> As for being pleased that the BMC gets some dosh? Why should I if the money is wasted on things like the guidebook fiasco the mountain exhibition etc etc.
I think Ian Dunn pointd out that the UK Sport funding was for certain things, specifically :-
"Exchequer funding helps support: staffing and management structures; safety and ethical standards; non-Lottery funded elite squads; coach education and development; and modernisation of governing bodies."
The BRYCS seems a good use of this money, if needed. At least it keeps the kids indoors.
In reply to l applat:
Having a go at my the intellectual capacity I find Quite amusing from someone who cant see the benefit that competitions bring -
Drawing people into climbing
Pushing Standards
or is it just that you are afraid of competiton ?
> My view is that the BMC should be directing what is a limited and no doubt scarce resource at getting children, yoof or what ever int the outside and lettering them climb on real rock and getting the enourmous psycho-social benefits that climbing often brings.
>
> It is my view that the indoor comps do not satisfy these objectives.
>
> It is my view that the indoor comps do not satisfy these objectives.
Having a go at my the intellectual capacity I find Quite amusing from someone who cant see the benefit that competitions bring -
Drawing people into climbing
Pushing Standards
or is it just that you are afraid of competiton ?
Just returned from the 3rd heat of the BRYCS at RockAntics. Absolutely immaterial where my daughter finished, it was her first competition and her first chance to meet other climbers. I couldn't believe how well the competition was run, how friendly everybody was but especially how much all the kids enjoyed it.
We had enough trouble trying to find a way to start climbing indoors nevermind outdoors.
Being an absolutly novice there is no way I would allow my daughter to start climbing outdoors with persons I don't know. As for standards how do you improve!!! practice, coaching and training I would presume, same as any other sport, this I would find hard to believe could be achieved with only outdoor climbing on REAL ROCK.
1. Where would the support come from.
2. Who would coach.
3. How do you get there.
Personally I think learn on a wall, when someone says would you like to join us on an outdoor climb go. Let the kid decide what she likes and at the right time the challenge of outdoors will take over and they will climb real rock if they want too.
We had enough trouble trying to find a way to start climbing indoors nevermind outdoors.
Being an absolutly novice there is no way I would allow my daughter to start climbing outdoors with persons I don't know. As for standards how do you improve!!! practice, coaching and training I would presume, same as any other sport, this I would find hard to believe could be achieved with only outdoor climbing on REAL ROCK.
1. Where would the support come from.
2. Who would coach.
3. How do you get there.
Personally I think learn on a wall, when someone says would you like to join us on an outdoor climb go. Let the kid decide what she likes and at the right time the challenge of outdoors will take over and they will climb real rock if they want too.
In reply to graeme alderson: Post your email address and it's on it's way. By the way the answer will be posted as soon as I know.
In reply to l applat: I agree with your thoughts, heres one of mine, perhaps climbing walls (and sport climbing) have introduced a new generation of climbers to an environment which instills the culture of climbing as purely a 'grade chase' rather than the pursuit of the quality line and climbing experience. As this new generation of wall educated climbers have hit the traditional outdoors the impact has been obvious. Grades are becoming the ONLY focus (at all levels)and as such the ethics involved in climbing are changing and the reasons for why people climb are changing.
In reply to EB:
What rubbish
What rubbish
In reply to Charlie: maybe you can explain why what I said is rubbish?
In reply to John Ballantine:
You get better at climbing by climbing.
Your comment 'As for standards how do you improve!!! practice, coaching and training I would presume, same as any other sport, this I would find hard to believe could be achieved with only outdoor climbing on REAL ROCK.' shows a lack of understanding of the roots of this pastime.
You do not have to go anywhere near an indoor wall in order to learn how to climb, it is a natural act, like running. The difference is that running as a sport has always been overtly competitive with racing being the main focus (though many people run simply for pleasure). Climbing started as a pastime for pleasure, competitions are new and competition climbing is virtually a different sport.
Climbing is different, risk has traditionally been a major factor. The growth of walls and competition climbing in a safe controlled environment has meant that a larger number of folk now participate.
Traditionally, you would begin climbing as an extention of hill walking, scrambling etc. This is how I learnt and I am no ancient.
For many people nowadays though, the climbing wall is the main place where they climb, and they climb with folk from a similar background. When they go outdoors, they bring with them new perspectives which often clash with the views of more traditional climbers.
Many wall bred climbers drop several grades outside. 6b down to 4c is not uncommon.
In answer to your questions:
Support comes from people you know or meet climbing.
Nobody coaches you, you learn as you go, unless you're lucky and meet a better climber who's willing to take you under his/her wing a bit.
You get there by buying a guidebook to your nearest area, selecting an easy route and climbing it, probably getting very scared on the way.
I understand that this is probably unacceptable to you as you do not wish to run the risk of your daughter hurting herself. But real climbing is all about risk (and how do control that risk).
You get better at climbing by climbing.
Your comment 'As for standards how do you improve!!! practice, coaching and training I would presume, same as any other sport, this I would find hard to believe could be achieved with only outdoor climbing on REAL ROCK.' shows a lack of understanding of the roots of this pastime.
You do not have to go anywhere near an indoor wall in order to learn how to climb, it is a natural act, like running. The difference is that running as a sport has always been overtly competitive with racing being the main focus (though many people run simply for pleasure). Climbing started as a pastime for pleasure, competitions are new and competition climbing is virtually a different sport.
Climbing is different, risk has traditionally been a major factor. The growth of walls and competition climbing in a safe controlled environment has meant that a larger number of folk now participate.
Traditionally, you would begin climbing as an extention of hill walking, scrambling etc. This is how I learnt and I am no ancient.
For many people nowadays though, the climbing wall is the main place where they climb, and they climb with folk from a similar background. When they go outdoors, they bring with them new perspectives which often clash with the views of more traditional climbers.
Many wall bred climbers drop several grades outside. 6b down to 4c is not uncommon.
In answer to your questions:
Support comes from people you know or meet climbing.
Nobody coaches you, you learn as you go, unless you're lucky and meet a better climber who's willing to take you under his/her wing a bit.
You get there by buying a guidebook to your nearest area, selecting an easy route and climbing it, probably getting very scared on the way.
I understand that this is probably unacceptable to you as you do not wish to run the risk of your daughter hurting herself. But real climbing is all about risk (and how do control that risk).
In reply to John Ballantine:
Even though I help to run the BRYCS competition, I agree with Dave Hunter. I was about to post somethng similar, but he got in first.
I don't go a bundle on adult competition climbing, but I think BRYCS is good purely through seeing how much the kids get out of it.
It *is* virtually a different sport, though I'm heartened to see that so many of the kids who do BRYCS in London/South East graduate quickly onto real rock. It's now rare for me to go to Stanage, Wales or the local sandstone without encountering some of the BRYCS youngsters I know.
But the "improving standards", and "coaching and training" you talk about are only really valid in the context of a competitive sport, which outdoor climbing on real rock is not. Sure, people compete, against themselves and against each other, to an extent, but trad climbing is far more akin to hill walking in its basic philosophy than it is to competitive indoor climbing.
You may find it "hard to believe" that basic skills and improvement can be learned on real rock, rather than at the wall, but that's exactly how I started (in my 40s). In fact, I'd been climbing for 3 years and winter mountaineering (where I first learned my ropework skills) for 5 years before I ever went near an indoor wall of any description.
Wall/ competition climbing is *a* way into climbing, but it's not the *only* way, or, even, necessarily the "best" way.
> As for standards how do you improve!!! practice, coaching and training I would presume, same as any other sport, this I would find hard to believe could be achieved with only outdoor climbing on REAL ROCK.
> 1. Where would the support come from.
> 2. Who would coach.
> 3. How do you get there.
>
> Personally I think learn on a wall, when someone says would you like to join us on an outdoor climb go.
> 1. Where would the support come from.
> 2. Who would coach.
> 3. How do you get there.
>
> Personally I think learn on a wall, when someone says would you like to join us on an outdoor climb go.
Even though I help to run the BRYCS competition, I agree with Dave Hunter. I was about to post somethng similar, but he got in first.
I don't go a bundle on adult competition climbing, but I think BRYCS is good purely through seeing how much the kids get out of it.
It *is* virtually a different sport, though I'm heartened to see that so many of the kids who do BRYCS in London/South East graduate quickly onto real rock. It's now rare for me to go to Stanage, Wales or the local sandstone without encountering some of the BRYCS youngsters I know.
But the "improving standards", and "coaching and training" you talk about are only really valid in the context of a competitive sport, which outdoor climbing on real rock is not. Sure, people compete, against themselves and against each other, to an extent, but trad climbing is far more akin to hill walking in its basic philosophy than it is to competitive indoor climbing.
You may find it "hard to believe" that basic skills and improvement can be learned on real rock, rather than at the wall, but that's exactly how I started (in my 40s). In fact, I'd been climbing for 3 years and winter mountaineering (where I first learned my ropework skills) for 5 years before I ever went near an indoor wall of any description.
Wall/ competition climbing is *a* way into climbing, but it's not the *only* way, or, even, necessarily the "best" way.
Thanks EB, Rob and Dave for the informative replies to my post.
As Dave says, shows a lack of understanding of the roots of this pastime. 100% true.
Also 100% true is the fact I have a daughter completley hooked at the age of 11 and now been climbing 6 weeks.
So the questions now are:
1. Why is she hooked.
2. Why does she look at the cards below the routes.
3. Why does she keep keep bouldering when the skin is off her fingers.
4. Am I being responsible or irresponsible by not even thinking about letting her climb outside at this stage.
5. Will she progress to outside climbing.
I'm buggered if I know. I certainly enjoy watching her climb.
Dave you seen these pictures of climbers, everyone I've seen shows someone hanging upside down 3,000 ft up a cliff face with no rope. Scared nah I'm s***ing myself to let her go climbing outside.
As Dave says, shows a lack of understanding of the roots of this pastime. 100% true.
Also 100% true is the fact I have a daughter completley hooked at the age of 11 and now been climbing 6 weeks.
So the questions now are:
1. Why is she hooked.
2. Why does she look at the cards below the routes.
3. Why does she keep keep bouldering when the skin is off her fingers.
4. Am I being responsible or irresponsible by not even thinking about letting her climb outside at this stage.
5. Will she progress to outside climbing.
I'm buggered if I know. I certainly enjoy watching her climb.
Dave you seen these pictures of climbers, everyone I've seen shows someone hanging upside down 3,000 ft up a cliff face with no rope. Scared nah I'm s***ing myself to let her go climbing outside.
In reply to John Ballantine:
My Daughter has been climbing for 3.5 years; she is 12 and ultra competitive. To her climbing is two different sports, there is indoor climbing, which is all about training with her coach towards the next big competition, pushing grades, working on stamina and technique.
Outside it is all about climbing good routes. I watched her get as much enjoyment out of Little Cham as MGC; it was not the grade, but the climb.
The two do cross over; the other day she became obsessively competitive about grades outside, working a UK6c Boulder problem for 3 hours, likewise she will turn up at a climbing centre and knock off a few fun routes with some friends.
What the youngsters do better than us wrinklies is differentiate between indoor and outdoor climbing.
John:
You are in for a hard time.
I will return to the cellar, and the climbing wall I am building for her, I remember having a life, just, this was before my daughter started climbing.
My Daughter has been climbing for 3.5 years; she is 12 and ultra competitive. To her climbing is two different sports, there is indoor climbing, which is all about training with her coach towards the next big competition, pushing grades, working on stamina and technique.
Outside it is all about climbing good routes. I watched her get as much enjoyment out of Little Cham as MGC; it was not the grade, but the climb.
The two do cross over; the other day she became obsessively competitive about grades outside, working a UK6c Boulder problem for 3 hours, likewise she will turn up at a climbing centre and knock off a few fun routes with some friends.
What the youngsters do better than us wrinklies is differentiate between indoor and outdoor climbing.
John:
You are in for a hard time.
I will return to the cellar, and the climbing wall I am building for her, I remember having a life, just, this was before my daughter started climbing.
In reply to John Ballantine: Glad to hear your daughter is a keen climber, I hope the climbing wall mentality viz a viz route setting doesn't caus elong term bamage to her fingers etc.
I think it would be a better use of the BMC's money if you and her could be supported to get her outsid eon real rock and gain the benefits that this brings rather than sell the myth that the indoor arena is the only sauitable place for kids.
I think it would be a better use of the BMC's money if you and her could be supported to get her outsid eon real rock and gain the benefits that this brings rather than sell the myth that the indoor arena is the only sauitable place for kids.
In reply to John Ballantine:
It gets some people, it leaves others cold. It may be a passing fad that she'll move away from. All my kids started climbing not long after I did, but my eldest is the only one who's kept it up. Whether it's a flash in the pan or the start of a lifetime's committment, only time will tell.
Not familiar with the wall she's using, but the cards will have a difficulty grade, nd may also specify whether,eg, feet use bolt on holds only, or whether smearing's "allowed". That's purely a grade thing. If she smears on a route that states "feet follow", eg, then it'll be easier than the posted grade.
Sounds like she's very (over?) enthusiastic! You need to apply some common sense here. Muscles develop faster than tendons, and she's at a stage in her life when her body's changing rapidly. If she climbs too much, she runs the risk of tendon damage which will be very painful, and take a lot longer to recover from than finger skin or muscle damage. Don't discourage her, but make sure she warms up and down properly, and stops at the first sign of any finger joint or elbow joint pain.
Neither...it's your call. You need to decide what's best for your child in the situation that you're in. I had my kids climbing outside when I wasn't a very good climber myself (still aren't!). BUT, even though I wasn't (aren't) able to make hard moves, I've taken great pains to ensure that my ropework is good, and that I have an appreciation of how to escape the system and get out of trouble, etc. I'm quite happy climbing outside with my 16 year old, and have been since he was about 11.
If she really wants to do it, then finding someone safe to take her out is up to you. You could of course pay for an instructor/ guide....someone like Libby Peter is very highly skilled, she's patient, she's "child friendly" and as safe as you could wish for.
Only time will tell.
Presumably when she learns to drive, it won't be in a formula 1 Ferrari in the middle of the British Grand Prix, which is the driving equivalent of those pictures you're seeing. There are loads of short routes, or longer routes which aren't too steep, with big ledges at convenient points and the ability to protect them with gear to your heart's content.
Having said that, all climbing is potentially dangerous, and requires eternal vigilance. I know of 3 nasty falls at local indoor walls in the last year, all by very experienced young climbers who simply forgot something basic, like finishing tying in properly before climbing, or had an inattentive belayer.
> > So the questions now are:
> 1. Why is she hooked.
It gets some people, it leaves others cold. It may be a passing fad that she'll move away from. All my kids started climbing not long after I did, but my eldest is the only one who's kept it up. Whether it's a flash in the pan or the start of a lifetime's committment, only time will tell.
> 2. Why does she look at the cards below the routes.
Not familiar with the wall she's using, but the cards will have a difficulty grade, nd may also specify whether,eg, feet use bolt on holds only, or whether smearing's "allowed". That's purely a grade thing. If she smears on a route that states "feet follow", eg, then it'll be easier than the posted grade.
> 3. Why does she keep keep bouldering when the skin is off her fingers.
Sounds like she's very (over?) enthusiastic! You need to apply some common sense here. Muscles develop faster than tendons, and she's at a stage in her life when her body's changing rapidly. If she climbs too much, she runs the risk of tendon damage which will be very painful, and take a lot longer to recover from than finger skin or muscle damage. Don't discourage her, but make sure she warms up and down properly, and stops at the first sign of any finger joint or elbow joint pain.
> 4. Am I being responsible or irresponsible by not even thinking about letting her climb outside at this stage.
Neither...it's your call. You need to decide what's best for your child in the situation that you're in. I had my kids climbing outside when I wasn't a very good climber myself (still aren't!). BUT, even though I wasn't (aren't) able to make hard moves, I've taken great pains to ensure that my ropework is good, and that I have an appreciation of how to escape the system and get out of trouble, etc. I'm quite happy climbing outside with my 16 year old, and have been since he was about 11.
If she really wants to do it, then finding someone safe to take her out is up to you. You could of course pay for an instructor/ guide....someone like Libby Peter is very highly skilled, she's patient, she's "child friendly" and as safe as you could wish for.
> 5. Will she progress to outside climbing.
Only time will tell.
> Dave you seen these pictures of climbers, everyone I've seen shows someone hanging upside down 3,000 ft up a cliff face with no rope. Scared nah I'm s***ing myself to let her go climbing outside.
Presumably when she learns to drive, it won't be in a formula 1 Ferrari in the middle of the British Grand Prix, which is the driving equivalent of those pictures you're seeing. There are loads of short routes, or longer routes which aren't too steep, with big ledges at convenient points and the ability to protect them with gear to your heart's content.
Having said that, all climbing is potentially dangerous, and requires eternal vigilance. I know of 3 nasty falls at local indoor walls in the last year, all by very experienced young climbers who simply forgot something basic, like finishing tying in properly before climbing, or had an inattentive belayer.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
You beat me to it that time
You're right, the main problems kids have climbing is overdoing it, with potentially serious long term consequences and lack of concentration/perception of risk. You can minimise these though.
Outside routes take longer to do than wall routes and so will tend to reduce overuse problems as there is less intensity to the climbing.
You beat me to it that time
You're right, the main problems kids have climbing is overdoing it, with potentially serious long term consequences and lack of concentration/perception of risk. You can minimise these though.
Outside routes take longer to do than wall routes and so will tend to reduce overuse problems as there is less intensity to the climbing.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Graeme-
Not to winge BUT:
I did book flights from London. Why? Because there was no way for my 3 daughters
not to qualify (to use the double negative).
The result £900 gone with NO CHANCE of retrieval from BA. Tried and tried and tried....
Obviously I'm not happy. More notice would have been appreciated.
Jack
> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>
> urbanRock BRYCS 2003 FINAL
>
> urbanRock BRYCS 2003 FINAL
Graeme-
Not to winge BUT:
I did book flights from London. Why? Because there was no way for my 3 daughters
not to qualify (to use the double negative).
The result £900 gone with NO CHANCE of retrieval from BA. Tried and tried and tried....
Obviously I'm not happy. More notice would have been appreciated.
Jack
>
> The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final – the walls themselves will probably be ready but other important facilities such as water, catering and toilets are the potential problem. These have to be up to Local Authority standards for a license to be granted to allow access to the building to the public .
>
> With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final to the Welsh International Climbing Centre. This decision was taken after a lot of consultation with the management at Ratho and we (including the Ratho people) are all very disappointed that we have had to make this last minute change.
>
> I appreciate that this change of venue will not suit everyone and we would all like to apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused. If anyone has made travel arrangements that cannot be cancelled please feel free to get in contact and we can discuss the matter further – I would ask that if possible you make this communication be email (graeme@thebmc.co.uk) or by mail rather than by phone.
>
> Once again apologises to all concerned. I have emailed everyone that I can but please pass this on to anyone that may be affected who doesn't use email.
>
> Also can people try and keep this thread at the top so people see it.
>
> Graeme Alderson
> BMC Competitions and Climbing Wall Officer
> Direct line 0161 4383318
> Email graeme@thebmc.co.uk
> The BMC & the MCofS have been informed that the proposed venue for the final (Ratho, near Edinburgh) is not able to guarantee that they will be ready for the final – the walls themselves will probably be ready but other important facilities such as water, catering and toilets are the potential problem. These have to be up to Local Authority standards for a license to be granted to allow access to the building to the public .
>
> With this in mind we have had to make the very difficult decision to move the final to the Welsh International Climbing Centre. This decision was taken after a lot of consultation with the management at Ratho and we (including the Ratho people) are all very disappointed that we have had to make this last minute change.
>
> I appreciate that this change of venue will not suit everyone and we would all like to apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused. If anyone has made travel arrangements that cannot be cancelled please feel free to get in contact and we can discuss the matter further – I would ask that if possible you make this communication be email (graeme@thebmc.co.uk) or by mail rather than by phone.
>
> Once again apologises to all concerned. I have emailed everyone that I can but please pass this on to anyone that may be affected who doesn't use email.
>
> Also can people try and keep this thread at the top so people see it.
>
> Graeme Alderson
> BMC Competitions and Climbing Wall Officer
> Direct line 0161 4383318
> Email graeme@thebmc.co.uk
In reply to John Ballantine:
All my 4 kids started climbing outside (recently as I'm a relatively new convert), seconding routes. I don't think I've ever rigged a TR for them. If I offer to take them down the local wall they're not interested unless it's chucking it down and there's nothing on TV. Mind you, it's not the most inspiring of venues. If I propose a day outside I usually get my arm snapped off. Interest waxes and wanes but it appears to tend towards the waxing.
We've had relatively few minor epics, although climbing above a runner on Josephine springs to mind, my fault for poor route selection and giving slack without asking why!
Got the son leading the other day on a nice slabby finger crack (S/HS). He'd seconded it 2 or 3 times already (it's local and a nice warmup) so had a good feel for the moves. I did have an ab rope with a bight tied in it every 4 meters running parallel to the crack so he could clip some gear that I _knew_ wouldn't pop, as well as relying on his own placements.
I wouldn't have got that 1.2 MegaWatt grin as he looked down from the (prerigged) top belay and called "climb when ready!" if it had been some plastic clipup for his first leading experience.
Not an anti-TR or anti-wall rant BTW, I've done TR but not _too_ often as I'd rather onsight or second. Being marooned in London during the week means I spend a couple of evening pulling plastic (but I don't really enjoy it that much, just trying to stay fit).
So, re. your questions, in my (limited) experience:
It could be either depending on how you set up the experience. If you climb or can find a responsible person to take your daughter climbing outdoors you could consider getting her outdoors as soon as possible, provided the routes chosen are good (ie. sound and at the right grade) and weather etc. oblige (which is almost entirely a matter of your choosing). Because it is almost guaranteed to increase her stoke for climbing and prolong, probably permanently, her enthusiasm. Which surely is something a responsible parent would want. Of course, if you let some macho clown with a death wish take her up some chossy, unprotectable horror show that could be seen as being slightly irresponsible.
Probably not, unless she's allowed to go climbing outside.
All my 4 kids started climbing outside (recently as I'm a relatively new convert), seconding routes. I don't think I've ever rigged a TR for them. If I offer to take them down the local wall they're not interested unless it's chucking it down and there's nothing on TV. Mind you, it's not the most inspiring of venues. If I propose a day outside I usually get my arm snapped off. Interest waxes and wanes but it appears to tend towards the waxing.
We've had relatively few minor epics, although climbing above a runner on Josephine springs to mind, my fault for poor route selection and giving slack without asking why!
Got the son leading the other day on a nice slabby finger crack (S/HS). He'd seconded it 2 or 3 times already (it's local and a nice warmup) so had a good feel for the moves. I did have an ab rope with a bight tied in it every 4 meters running parallel to the crack so he could clip some gear that I _knew_ wouldn't pop, as well as relying on his own placements.
I wouldn't have got that 1.2 MegaWatt grin as he looked down from the (prerigged) top belay and called "climb when ready!" if it had been some plastic clipup for his first leading experience.
Not an anti-TR or anti-wall rant BTW, I've done TR but not _too_ often as I'd rather onsight or second. Being marooned in London during the week means I spend a couple of evening pulling plastic (but I don't really enjoy it that much, just trying to stay fit).
So, re. your questions, in my (limited) experience:
> 4. Am I being responsible or irresponsible by not even thinking about letting her climb outside at this stage.
It could be either depending on how you set up the experience. If you climb or can find a responsible person to take your daughter climbing outdoors you could consider getting her outdoors as soon as possible, provided the routes chosen are good (ie. sound and at the right grade) and weather etc. oblige (which is almost entirely a matter of your choosing). Because it is almost guaranteed to increase her stoke for climbing and prolong, probably permanently, her enthusiasm. Which surely is something a responsible parent would want. Of course, if you let some macho clown with a death wish take her up some chossy, unprotectable horror show that could be seen as being slightly irresponsible.
> 5. Will she progress to outside climbing.
Probably not, unless she's allowed to go climbing outside.
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