/ Running advice

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Pete Ford on 13 Oct 2013
Going to start a fitness campaign...got really bad over the past few years, and I'm after some advice about running shoes. I've seen plenty in running mag's etc, but at around £100 just can't justify that. Mostly running on urban streets for a start.
Thanks for any advise ukc.

mbh - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

I buy Brooks Adrenaline GTSs. I normally wear a 7.5 and get them in an 8.
They come out in a new addition every year, but you can still get the GTS12s for under £60, including postage, on Amazon. The same older-model-is-cheaper thing is probably true for other shoes too.
JamButty - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford: done any before? If not I'd recommend looking up 5K beginners plans online - involve a split of walking/running, otherwise you'll keep getting injured like me! Not that I'm frustrated at the mo or anything!!
On running shoes I'd get a gait analysis to make sure you have the right shoes. This will determine what level you pronate. Cheapest way is wet feet markings on the floor or go to your local shop and go on their machine.
I got a good pair of Ascics for £50

Pete Ford on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to mbh: Thanks for that, sounds about right, anything in the £50 to £60 range is really much more affordable.

dale1968 on 13 Oct 2013
Pete Ford on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to JamButty:

The NHS 'Couch to 5km' is the programme I'm going to follow. Have a few health issues, and am on the wrong side (or is that the right side) of 50, but have got the all clear from the doctor.

TheDrunkenBakers - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford: cant advise on trainers but I would recommend joining a local club. Parkruns are great too. They have been a revelation to me.
David Riley - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

When you're running fit with a good style, then I don't think footwear matters so much. Shock absorbing justs wastes energy.
But when you start, or increase training, perhaps with gait problems, padding is probably good. I'm not sure about support, it could hinder good technique developing? Whatever you wear, stop when pains develop, and don't run too far too soon. I find increasing speed improves gait and is less likely to lead to injury than increasing distance. A slow trudge is often higher impact.
James B - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

Don't listen to anyone who advises you to buy a certain shoe. What suits other people won't necessarily suit you. I learned that the hard way when a pair of good shoes (good brand) led to pain in the side of my knee during runs, which disappeared again as soon as I changed shoes.

Take the advice above and go to a running shoe shop where staff will assess your gait and advise accordingly. Run and Become do it, I'm sure there will be others.
MrsSeychelles on 13 Oct 2013 - host-83-217-175-224.sta.dsl.vispa.com
In reply to Pete Ford: The Couch to 5k programme really works! I went from being unable to run for a minute and a half to recently completing my first 10k. Getting gait analysis is really helpful too. It eliminated some knee problems I was having. I've got a great pair of Asics that cost about £60 and they suit me fine. Good luck!
mbh - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to James B:

Was not suggesting so much that Pete but the same shoe as me; more that last year's models are much cheaper than the latest thing, and still fine.
The New NickB - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

Plenty of decent shoes available at £50 of less. Go to a decent running shop and try some on.
wbo - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford: oddly thee number one conclusion of above referred test of expensive against cheap shoes was that the results weren't applicable to running

Agree on getting very basically analytisk at a decent shop done
Steff - on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

Well, as has been said you don't need to spend 100 on a decent pair of running shoes. On the other hand, compared what people spend on a gym membership or equipment for other sports (like climbing) it's really a small investment.
doniceti on 13 Oct 2013 - host-89-241-224-222.as13285.net
I would suggest reading this for a useful take on how to establish good biomechanics and running economy - good for reducing your injury risk if you are going to do lots of running on tarmac.


It can be found as a pdf through a search engine too.

I wouldn't bother with chapter six though, whilst good running form is timeless, Pirie's diet advice is decidedly not.
Pete Ford on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

Thanks for all your help UKC. Will go to running shop for a look, and some advice on shoes. Will keep you all informed re the 'Couch to 5km' in case anyone else thinks its for them.

Simos on 13 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:

Do a Gait test at a running shop if you can and at least understand the difference between cushioning and support. If you, like me, overpronate for example you will find that the right pair of shoes will be a lot kinder to your knees. I used to get shoes with a lot of cushioning thinking that they would help my knee pain when in fact what I needed was shoes with more support.

Good luck!
Durkules - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford:
Quality technique is more important than quality trainers. Comfy cushioned trainers encourage poor technique as you don't feel the impact on your joints as much. Elevated heels also encourage heel striking.

This is coming from someone who suffered years of on and off injuries running in 'high-quality' running shoes, and using various insoles. I have been running in minimalist shoes for over a year now and haven't been injured once.
quirky - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to Pete Ford: Puma Faas, 30 odd quid from most places. Very neautral, cusioned enough and cheap as chips. I run my 4 mile luchtime circuit up to half M distance in them and have no problems. I went for gait analysis a got "prescribed" a shoe for over pronation (about £100s worth) and ended up with a host of niggles and injuries, i am sure it works for some people but not for me, i look for fairly flat neautral shoes now (never have issues with my inov8 fell shoes) and all seems good!
mbh - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to quirky:

I do wonder about this whole pronation business, with the gait analysis you get in the shops from the "qualified" staff. Is there any evidence that any of it is worth a bean? Doctors often get their diagnoses wrong, so what chance is there that shop staff will have anything useful to say?
Banned User 77 - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to durkules: N = 1 Science.. also if a myth is repeated 1000 times it somehow becomes fact..

The reality is there is almost no evidence to support a minimal shoe, especially not barefoot, despite McDougal's 'science' in Born to Run, which is basically a great read, based on nothing but conjecture.

The science does not support it (nor oppose it). Certainly physios are seeing more changes as more take up barefoot running. A 'high quality' running shoe by definition is a fairly minimal shoe, likely to weight just a few hundred grams.

but the best wway to improve running efficiency is mile upon mile of running. And to do that you want a comfy shoe. My mate where's a fairly heavy mizuno shoe for training (mizuno are his sponsors). He's full time pro runner, 65 min half marathoner, and then races in flats. I tend to run in a semi flat, with some drop from the heel.

I'm a forefoot striker, and so suffer issues in my calfs or ankles as that is where the force goes through, heel strikers will get it other areas. But I know many heel strikers and many forefoot runners who get injured and many of both types who run 100 mile weeks.

The science:
Murphy et al 2013 Barefoot Running: Does It Prevent Injuries?
Based on a review of current literature, barefoot running is not a substantiated preventative running measure to reduce injury rates in runners. However, barefoot running utility should be assessed on an athlete-specific basis to determine whether barefoot running will be beneficial.

Barefoot Running Claims and Controversies: A Review of the Literature
Jenkins and Cauthon
Conclusions: Although there is no evidence that either confirms or refutes improved performance and reduced injuries in barefoot runners, many of the claimed disadvantages to barefoot running are not supported by the literature. Nonetheless, it seems that barefoot running may be an acceptable training method for athletes and coaches who understand and can minimize the risks. (J Am Podiatr Med Assoc 101(3): 231–246, 2011)

Barefoot running – some critical considerations
DOI:10.1080/19424280.2013.766649Benno Nigga & Hendrik Endersa
The additional mass added to the foot by the shoe seems not to have a negative effect on performance until at a ‘threshold mass’ of about 200 to 250 g. The additional work due to the damping of vibrations of soft tissue compartments seems not to depend primarily on the footwear but rather on the individual comfort of the runner.
To the knowledge of the authors, there is no conclusive evidence that barefoot running has more, equal or less injuries than shod running.

Running in a minimalist and lightweight shoe is not the same as running barefoot: a biomechanical study

Jason Bonacci et al.
Aim The purpose of this study was to determine the changes in running mechanics that occur when highly trained runners run barefoot and in a minimalist shoe, and specifically if running in a minimalist shoe replicates barefoot running.
Results There were significant differences between barefoot and shod conditions for kinematic and kinetic variables at the knee and ankle, with no differences between shod conditions. Barefoot running demonstrated less knee flexion during midstance, an 11% decrease in the peak internal knee extension and abduction moments and a 24% decrease in negative work done at the knee compared with shod conditions. The ankle demonstrated less dorsiflexion at initial contact, a 14% increase in peak power generation and a 19% increase in the positive work done during barefoot running compared with shod conditions.
Conclusions Barefoot running was different to all shod conditions. Barefoot running changes the amount of work done at the knee and ankle joints and this may have therapeutic and performance implications for runners.
Banned User 77 - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to mbh: Agree.. a one day course and they know the world..

Just run 500 miles in your shoes.. look at the wear. That tells you all you need to know.
Mr Fuller on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Thanks for that. Confirmed what I thought myself, but good to hear it from someone who actually knows what they are on about. It was an interesting fad and good to see that it has introduced some new people to running, but barefoot running (with trainers on...) is not the be-all-and-end-all.
Banned User 77 - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller: I think it helps some people as it forces them to start slowly and build up sensibly and there is little evidence against it. When you run your gait and stability comes from a huge range of areas going right up through the body so I can't see how it can be so simple to just have do this and you won't get injured and can't see how there will be a one size fits all.

ring ouzel on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Honestly, one feature in a magazine and you think you know it all! )

I agree with you though Iain, people run at different speeds on different surfaces and everyones legs and feet are unique (never the same length for example) so one size fits all has always seemed a bit too simplistic.

I've changed my gait from heel striking to forefoot as I used to always get shin splints. Went out for an hour and half yesterday and everything was tickety boo. No pain or soreness at all today either, doesnt mean it would work for everybody else though.
MG - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Given we evolved to run fair distances on softish surfaces, wouldn't you expect barefoot running for moderate distances on mud etc. to be the least dangerous and injury-inducing?
Durkules - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> The science does not support it (nor oppose it).

That's more or less my point.

There's also no evidence (as far as I'm aware) to suggest a certain style of shoe, or having gait analysis and custom orthotics are going to help you avoid injuries either... and on top of it these options are very expensive.

The best thing to do is get a pair of shoes that fit well and focus on running smoothly and efficiently, and gradually build up the mileage. Technique is the key.
Banned User 77 - on 14 Oct 2013
In reply to MG: If all factors were even, probably yes. But we aren't. I'm not against BF or minimalist and wear fairly minimal road shoes for general training. But I just don't think its so simple as 'do this'.

And there is almost no evidence demonstrating all these 'facts' are true.. which is Born to Runs fault, as he basically presented science and few actual references.

It was actually a pretty bad book. One of the girls in it has suffered quite badly http://espn.go.com/espnw/olympics/article/7301872/ultra-runner-jenn-shelton-quest-legitimacy

I'm trying to find an article by Micah Trues friends on his views on it, supposedly he felt the book exploited the tribe and no money from the book benefited the tribe.

Maybe BF is better for young kids so they develop more naturally, but we don't know how many people would basically just have died from not being a good enough runner.

TBH I think all these shoe fads are just an excuse to sell more.. we now have the total extreme side with the hoka's..

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