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i'm rather curious: has anyone actually tried this stuff yet?
just how... erm... phobic is it?
just how... erm... phobic is it?
In reply to don macb:
Just got a down bag with 900 loft DWR fill, Mont have embraced it in a big way for their winter line.
Just got a down bag with 900 loft DWR fill, Mont have embraced it in a big way for their winter line.
In reply to don macb:
It's not going to turn your down jacket into wet weather gear but it certainly makes down more user friendly and will increase it's performance in terms of how warm it will keep you. It's won a few awards, been taken up by all the big brands and test wise seems to perform as they say.
It will get wetter slower, get less wet in total and dry quicker, so getting it damp wont hurt it as much. Synthetic still wins in real wet as you can wring it out and it'll still work ok (I'm not sure you want to be "wringing" your £200 down jacket), you can also rip a hole in it and you wont watch all your pretty down drifting away on the wind.
It's biggest advantage imo is in sleeping bags where presumably you're sweat, breath and condensation will have a lesser impact on the bag as the night goes on, meaning it will keep you warmer for longer. If you're sleeping in a down bag for a few weeks that's going to be a selling point over non-treated down. It also doesn't seem to add to the cost of the product, so however good it is it's win win and I don't see any reason why anyone would buy a non hydrophobic down product anymore.
I haven't really seen any info on how long the treatment lasts, down products can last 20 years if they aren't abused - will the treatment last that long? I doubt it. You wont be able to reapply it at home either so once it's gone it's gone (traditional down water repellent washes are different to the treatment hydrophobic down gets.)
It's not going to turn your down jacket into wet weather gear but it certainly makes down more user friendly and will increase it's performance in terms of how warm it will keep you. It's won a few awards, been taken up by all the big brands and test wise seems to perform as they say.
It will get wetter slower, get less wet in total and dry quicker, so getting it damp wont hurt it as much. Synthetic still wins in real wet as you can wring it out and it'll still work ok (I'm not sure you want to be "wringing" your £200 down jacket), you can also rip a hole in it and you wont watch all your pretty down drifting away on the wind.
It's biggest advantage imo is in sleeping bags where presumably you're sweat, breath and condensation will have a lesser impact on the bag as the night goes on, meaning it will keep you warmer for longer. If you're sleeping in a down bag for a few weeks that's going to be a selling point over non-treated down. It also doesn't seem to add to the cost of the product, so however good it is it's win win and I don't see any reason why anyone would buy a non hydrophobic down product anymore.
I haven't really seen any info on how long the treatment lasts, down products can last 20 years if they aren't abused - will the treatment last that long? I doubt it. You wont be able to reapply it at home either so once it's gone it's gone (traditional down water repellent washes are different to the treatment hydrophobic down gets.)
In reply to Sharp:
"(traditional down water repellent washes are different to the treatment hydrophobic down gets.)"
Whats the difference between the manufacturer treatments and say the nikwax down proof?
Another advantage of treated down is its a lot easy to wash, or more correctly to dry after washing.
"(traditional down water repellent washes are different to the treatment hydrophobic down gets.)"
Whats the difference between the manufacturer treatments and say the nikwax down proof?
Another advantage of treated down is its a lot easy to wash, or more correctly to dry after washing.
In reply to Sharp:
BTW have you read this
"http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-news/rab-embraces-hydrophobic-down/10620...."
Seems likely the Rab hydrophobic down is very similar (/ the same?) as the technology in nikwax down proof. I imagine the main difference is the method of application.
BTW have you read this
"http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-news/rab-embraces-hydrophobic-down/10620...."
Seems likely the Rab hydrophobic down is very similar (/ the same?) as the technology in nikwax down proof. I imagine the main difference is the method of application.
In reply to don macb:
Don't know a lot about it but I did laugh at the weekend when the shop assistant in BSnow and Rock said to a customer that it was the best thing on the market and it was perfect for wet winter walking as it was better in the wet than primaloft.......
Don't know a lot about it but I did laugh at the weekend when the shop assistant in BSnow and Rock said to a customer that it was the best thing on the market and it was perfect for wet winter walking as it was better in the wet than primaloft.......
In reply to CurlyStevo:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_disp...
See Richard Nisley's post, never used nikwax down proof but I'm guessing its not that fancy.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_disp...
See Richard Nisley's post, never used nikwax down proof but I'm guessing its not that fancy.
In reply to don macb: I'd agree with much of the above. Hydrophobic down is better than non-treated down when it comes to water resistance, but is still some way behind synthetics. The method of application varies, sometimes considerably (eg. Patagonia's method), between companies. The major difference between the at-home treatments and the industrial one is that the companies coat the down itself, and the home treatment does the garments. Getting your proofer through a layer of pertex in high enough concentration to make it worthwhile is probably not trivial, though I've never actually tried it.
In reply to Mr Fuller:
"major difference between the at-home treatments and the industrial one is that the companies coat the down itself, and the home treatment does the garments"
Although I also suspect this I was wondering if you have any firm information in this regard.
"Getting your proofer through a layer of pertex in high enough concentration to make it worthwhile is probably not trivial, though I've never actually tried it."
I have on a sleeping bag. I applied it when it needed washing anyway. I recently washed the bag again and there was a huge difference in machine drying. Instead of literally hours of drying and many pounds of cost this time drying was around 15 mins and cost me 80p. I'd say this is pretty conclusive that the Nikwax downproof does its job.
"major difference between the at-home treatments and the industrial one is that the companies coat the down itself, and the home treatment does the garments"
Although I also suspect this I was wondering if you have any firm information in this regard.
"Getting your proofer through a layer of pertex in high enough concentration to make it worthwhile is probably not trivial, though I've never actually tried it."
I have on a sleeping bag. I applied it when it needed washing anyway. I recently washed the bag again and there was a huge difference in machine drying. Instead of literally hours of drying and many pounds of cost this time drying was around 15 mins and cost me 80p. I'd say this is pretty conclusive that the Nikwax downproof does its job.
In reply to Sharp: I bought a sleeping bag in 1988 which claimed that the down had been treated to repel water. Made by Caravan (part of Northern feather). Is this stuff really new?
In reply to CurlyStevo: I'm afraid I don't know many details, and those I do know I'm afraid I can't say at risk of breaching contracts. How much difference in practice there is between home treatments and industrial treatments I don't know. Your experience is pretty positive though - I've never proofed a sleeping bag or jacket but that sounds a good endorsement!
Siward, that sounds really interesting. I was unaware of any treatments like this apart from an '80s Canadian patent on it. I don't know of any treatments commercially-available before the recent ones offered by Berghaus, and the Nikwax offering. Don't suppose you've got any internet links to their stuff have you...?
Siward, that sounds really interesting. I was unaware of any treatments like this apart from an '80s Canadian patent on it. I don't know of any treatments commercially-available before the recent ones offered by Berghaus, and the Nikwax offering. Don't suppose you've got any internet links to their stuff have you...?
In reply to Mr Fuller:
The Nikwax down proof has been around quite a long time thought right?
Like all the other Nikwax products it smells and looks rather similar to the others. I suspect with the Nikwax offerings its all generally pretty much the same stuff that provides the waterproofing
The Nikwax down proof has been around quite a long time thought right?
Like all the other Nikwax products it smells and looks rather similar to the others. I suspect with the Nikwax offerings its all generally pretty much the same stuff that provides the waterproofing
In reply to CurlyStevo: Yes, been around for a while, and probably yes on the second point as well!
In reply to don macb:
Not positive but I'd imagine the main difference in reapplying the proofings will be the same as for a standard DWR - Most hardshells get Fluorocarbon proofings in the factory, nikwax is an environmentally kinder and safer to apply but less durable finish. Might be wrong but I think Grangers have a fluorocarbon wash to apply at home, but it's really heavily diluted.
RE: the Hydrophobic down stuff itself, I've spoken to a few reps of a couple of companies selling it, and they've said (after a standard not taking any s**t skeptical grilling applied to reps selling all new products) that it doesn't really compete with synthetic in a wet environment, in that it wont keep you warm when wet in the same way - down insulation works by trapping air inbetween the fluff, even in hydrophobic down that air can be replaced with water making it not as insulating. It does mean though that unlike conventional down it won't degrade once it has dried out again, retaining more of its loft. I came to the verdict that it wasn't for me, but I'm quite happy to let everyone else experiment with it and reassess when the kit has or hasn't stood the test of time!
Oliver.
Not positive but I'd imagine the main difference in reapplying the proofings will be the same as for a standard DWR - Most hardshells get Fluorocarbon proofings in the factory, nikwax is an environmentally kinder and safer to apply but less durable finish. Might be wrong but I think Grangers have a fluorocarbon wash to apply at home, but it's really heavily diluted.
RE: the Hydrophobic down stuff itself, I've spoken to a few reps of a couple of companies selling it, and they've said (after a standard not taking any s**t skeptical grilling applied to reps selling all new products) that it doesn't really compete with synthetic in a wet environment, in that it wont keep you warm when wet in the same way - down insulation works by trapping air inbetween the fluff, even in hydrophobic down that air can be replaced with water making it not as insulating. It does mean though that unlike conventional down it won't degrade once it has dried out again, retaining more of its loft. I came to the verdict that it wasn't for me, but I'm quite happy to let everyone else experiment with it and reassess when the kit has or hasn't stood the test of time!
Oliver.
In reply to Mr Fuller: them was pre internet days. Still have the bag though! I'll check the label.
In reply to Siward: I remember picking up a Caravan catalogue, probably from Brum YHA shop, around that time when I was just starting out hiking and hillwalking on my own. I remember being captivated by the pictures and being amazed by the idea that you could sleep out at -25 or even that -25 really existed. Of course for my wife, who I was still 10 years away from meeting, -25 was just when it was finally cold enough to not have to do outside skating in school PE lessons.
Sorry - don't remember the waterproof down though.
Sorry - don't remember the waterproof down though.
In reply to don macb:
worth a watch
youtube.com/watch?v=pDx14xueEJA&
youtube.com/watch?v=Nnp7g11dKEw&
worth a watch
youtube.com/watch?v=pDx14xueEJA&
youtube.com/watch?v=Nnp7g11dKEw&
In reply to all:
cool- thanks for taking the time to comment.
i suppose that what i was really hoping for was some feedback from folk that have tried the new stuff out, but it's clearly a little fresh out of the wrapper as yet for there to be much in the way of real, in the field use.
i'd already taken a look at some of the marketing hype, as have those who have contributed to the thread, but had missed the clips provided by valjean. having viewed the down tek clip previously, it's quite interesting to see a response from a retailer that appears to indicate that the down tek tests are a tad misleading.
it has often been said over the years that if you're operating in temperatures that are sufficiently high for there to be precipitation, then it's simply too warm for wearing down. i would dispute this! i'm a very occasional scottish winter climber (climbed up to IV tech 5) and- while most routes have been done in a baselayer and softshell- i have twice kept a belay jacket on while climbing when the scottish winter has been getting right into my bones. once with a fitzroy synthetic and once with a montane north star down. sometimes scotland really can be cold enough to warrant wearing down, especially while static on belay.
but... i've always concluded that the best solution for me would be a down jacket with an incorporated, fully waterproof shell and i've often wondered why the manufacturers are so reluctant to provide this to the market. expense? i suppose so.
there was a rab microlight in event around for a while, but it seemed hard to get a hold of. i see they have a version of the microlight alpine this season with a pertex shield outer, that might fit the niche (but wow: that's a big price tag for a micro baffled piece). others have been the very expensive crux offerings, but i seem to remember users grumbling that the design allowed moisture ingress via the hood toggles, so clearly this would be a problem in a scottish winter scenario.
i would never expect- despite the marketing hype surrounding hydrophobic fill this season- that these new products would be actually waterproof. a little bit of an improvement though would be welcome, were it not to come with an unreasonably increased price tag.
well- i'll wait for folk to try it out this season. meanwhile, i might still keep an eye for a design that cuts to the chase by giving me a waterproof shell over the down without costing £300 / 400...
or perhaps- as per the videos provided by valjean- the vulnerability of standard down to moisture has been somewhat over stated. hmmmmm!
cool- thanks for taking the time to comment.
i suppose that what i was really hoping for was some feedback from folk that have tried the new stuff out, but it's clearly a little fresh out of the wrapper as yet for there to be much in the way of real, in the field use.
i'd already taken a look at some of the marketing hype, as have those who have contributed to the thread, but had missed the clips provided by valjean. having viewed the down tek clip previously, it's quite interesting to see a response from a retailer that appears to indicate that the down tek tests are a tad misleading.
it has often been said over the years that if you're operating in temperatures that are sufficiently high for there to be precipitation, then it's simply too warm for wearing down. i would dispute this! i'm a very occasional scottish winter climber (climbed up to IV tech 5) and- while most routes have been done in a baselayer and softshell- i have twice kept a belay jacket on while climbing when the scottish winter has been getting right into my bones. once with a fitzroy synthetic and once with a montane north star down. sometimes scotland really can be cold enough to warrant wearing down, especially while static on belay.
but... i've always concluded that the best solution for me would be a down jacket with an incorporated, fully waterproof shell and i've often wondered why the manufacturers are so reluctant to provide this to the market. expense? i suppose so.
there was a rab microlight in event around for a while, but it seemed hard to get a hold of. i see they have a version of the microlight alpine this season with a pertex shield outer, that might fit the niche (but wow: that's a big price tag for a micro baffled piece). others have been the very expensive crux offerings, but i seem to remember users grumbling that the design allowed moisture ingress via the hood toggles, so clearly this would be a problem in a scottish winter scenario.
i would never expect- despite the marketing hype surrounding hydrophobic fill this season- that these new products would be actually waterproof. a little bit of an improvement though would be welcome, were it not to come with an unreasonably increased price tag.
well- i'll wait for folk to try it out this season. meanwhile, i might still keep an eye for a design that cuts to the chase by giving me a waterproof shell over the down without costing £300 / 400...
or perhaps- as per the videos provided by valjean- the vulnerability of standard down to moisture has been somewhat over stated. hmmmmm!
In reply to don macb:
The problem with a down jacket that you would belay in, is that if its water proof you are going to lock in the snow and ice that's on the outside of your climbing layers and melt it in to you, with a primaloft pertex (style) belay jacket I typically find by the end of the belay I'm feeling warm and dry.
I think for the UK if you want a belay jacket you are better getting synthetic. Down could be ok if your activity of choice generally requires dry weather (like for say putting on between problems when bouldering)
The problem with a down jacket that you would belay in, is that if its water proof you are going to lock in the snow and ice that's on the outside of your climbing layers and melt it in to you, with a primaloft pertex (style) belay jacket I typically find by the end of the belay I'm feeling warm and dry.
I think for the UK if you want a belay jacket you are better getting synthetic. Down could be ok if your activity of choice generally requires dry weather (like for say putting on between problems when bouldering)
In reply to CurlyStevo:
yeah, i grasp that too.
my old extreme smock (pertex and pile) did the trick in that respect, but is just so bulky in the pack and i'm weak, so obsess over reducing weight and packsize for winter walk ins.
the go-to piece is always the primaloft one / drilite outer magnificence that is the fitzroy!
yeah, i grasp that too.
my old extreme smock (pertex and pile) did the trick in that respect, but is just so bulky in the pack and i'm weak, so obsess over reducing weight and packsize for winter walk ins.
the go-to piece is always the primaloft one / drilite outer magnificence that is the fitzroy!
In reply to don macb:
It's just an observation, but ducks apply their own hydrophobic coating, maybe they should market "Preen".
It's just an observation, but ducks apply their own hydrophobic coating, maybe they should market "Preen".
In reply to althesin:
indeedy... as highlighted in the video posted up thread: the old skool down seems a little more naturally resistant than folk might expect, for this very reason.
indeedy... as highlighted in the video posted up thread: the old skool down seems a little more naturally resistant than folk might expect, for this very reason.
In reply to althesin:
On the other hand, when seabirds are rescued from oil slicks and cleaned with detergents to remove the oil, they have to be kept in captivity for a while before they can re-proof their down. Otherwise, they'd sink...
(okay, their feathers and down would get wet...)
> but ducks apply their own hydrophobic coating, maybe they should market "Preen".
On the other hand, when seabirds are rescued from oil slicks and cleaned with detergents to remove the oil, they have to be kept in captivity for a while before they can re-proof their down. Otherwise, they'd sink...
(okay, their feathers and down would get wet...)
In reply to don macb: Despite all the tripe from people who have never used it, I am going to quote paul ramsden who says it is amazing. I reckon he knows what he's on about more than anyone on this thread.
In reply to smithaldo: Sponsored hero though innit?
Have a look at this vid of the Patagonia one - they say they fixed it with a special wash, but still very interesting if you are looking for a jacket to wear on an expedition for a long period. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaWk0b8Jro&noredirect=1
Have a look at this vid of the Patagonia one - they say they fixed it with a special wash, but still very interesting if you are looking for a jacket to wear on an expedition for a long period. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaWk0b8Jro&noredirect=1
In reply to don macb:
To get back to this thread, Jon Doran on OM has been playing in the bath with a Berghaus hydrophobic down jacket:
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-blog/a-wet-walk-with-berghaus-hydrodown/1...
To get back to this thread, Jon Doran on OM has been playing in the bath with a Berghaus hydrophobic down jacket:
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-blog/a-wet-walk-with-berghaus-hydrodown/1...
In reply to don macb: I have had a berghaus mt asgard hybrid for over a year now. I have had it wet but not in a cold environment so can't comment to much on the warmth side of it. However it definately dries and reforms its shape much quicker than my Rab neutrino did.
In reply to chris_s:
Under the Virgin Megastore where I used to go to get early 80s and late 70s Midnight Oil albums that I had ordered on import from Australia!
> Ahh, that brings back memories....
Under the Virgin Megastore where I used to go to get early 80s and late 70s Midnight Oil albums that I had ordered on import from Australia!
In reply to captain paranoia:
yup- that's a pretty impressive account.
well... i ended up going for an asgard hybrid: a birthday gift for the wife, with which she appears to be rather impressed.
thanks for your thoughts, folks.
yup- that's a pretty impressive account.
well... i ended up going for an asgard hybrid: a birthday gift for the wife, with which she appears to be rather impressed.
thanks for your thoughts, folks.
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