UKC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-24999917

"Police are investigating a complaint about a mural at an Edinburgh primary school which features a golliwog."

The mural having been on the wall since 1936..

In reply to Removed User: Hope they get that Jam company too...

In reply to Removed User:

What a waste of police time. Yes, it's an offensive image, but its also a perfect opportunity for the school to explain to their kids what's wrong with such images.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Yes.

To be honest though, I'm not sure that a golliwog is even that offensive in itself. I remember having a few of them as a child and never associating them people at all, they were just things. It was only because people started using the term in relation to black people that they became a problem. The term is never used now and a child would never therefore be aware of the old controversy. Unless some over sensitive mother happens to drag it all back up of course.

In reply to Removed User:

The PC in question will be going mad because he/she has far better things to do with their time that worry about whingers clutching their handbags.

In reply to Removed User:

Seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not even sure there is anything racially offensive about golliwogs - no more so than the representations of cabbage-patch kids or any other kids toy.

In reply to David Martin:

Another way of looking at it is if it wasn't there, then perhaps they would have received a complaint that there were no ethnic dolls in the picture?

Unfortunately racism has been around since humans have walked the earth, we are now doing very well in our efforts to get rid of it, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen, and it should not be erased from history.

It's on a different level, but racism and persecution of the Jews was also a heinous act, that isn't ignored because it will upset modern Jews quite the opposite - in most countries it's an offence to pretend it didn't happen.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

For sure but Jews get upset when they see images of the Shoah ill-used.

In reply to Mike Highbury:


Sorry, I'm clearly ignorant, I have no idea what the Shoah is? google seems to show a film of that title, and images show lots of images of concentration camps

In reply to Removed User:

Nice ambiguous thread title. I like it.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

No it isn't.

Sx

In reply to Sarah G:

Are you qualified to make that assertion.

In reply to The New NickB:

You need a qualification to declare an opinion on offensiveness?

That's PC gone mad (or me gone mad)

In reply to The New NickB:

You need a qualification to declare an opinion on offensiveness?

That's PC gone mad (or me gone mad)

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Shoah = Jewish for Holocaust.

jcm

In reply to Removed User:

OK prepare to stone me, I really don't care. I've stopped bothering about racism and the reason I have stopped is that so many of the complaints are contrived utter tosh like this one so the serious stuff gets lost amid all the other drivel.

In reply to The New NickB:

I'm not sure many black people find it offensive. Some might. But probably no more than those who are offended that we don't all go to church on Sunday, or some other banal social indiscretion.

Plenty out there will make an issue out if it to assert themselves though.

In reply to felt:

I know, I thought it was going to be about the 2001: A Space Odyssey, or Demon Seed, WarGames or The Terminator

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Although I concede that none of those were PERSONAL computers as such. Maybe the one in Demon Seed kind of counts.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I need to watch that again.

In reply to Removed User: What is offensive about the golly wog? I know they are, but don't know why... should all dolls be white? seems a bit racist to have no black ones...

In reply to David Barratt:

You go up to a dark skinned fella, bigger the better, call him a wog and come back and report back what happens.

That is ignoring the fact that they are crude racial chariatures.

In reply to The New NickB:
>

Created by white folks. There's nothing wrong with black dolls, but ones with comedy frizzy hair and comedy massive red lips may just be a little offensive to some black people.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Exactly.

In reply to David Martin:

Is it not possible, just a tiny bit, that some mother has had such a hard time from racism, that (warped or damaged from it she might be) she's decided she's going to do anything possible to make sure her child(ren) don't have to put up with the same cr*p she had to, like (even though it probably won't happen today) being called a wog by white kids and adults?

It could be somebody wanting to assert themselves, or it could be something else...

In reply to Removed User:

I dislike incidents like this which trivialise real issues.

In reply to Blue Straggler: weird science would be a damn site better but I don't think all would complain about that!

In reply to Removed User:

As I understood it, it is ok if you call them Golly, it is the ending that is offensive , not the image
http://www.gollycorner.co.uk/

In reply to The New NickB: Of course it would be offensive to refer to a black person in that way. I understand that historically, they were offensive stereotypes, but they are part of history, and when I see a golly wog now I don't think 'oh there's a black person, they all look like that', it's just a silly toy, and we certainly shouldn't aim to wipe out history if we find it offensive.

In reply to David Barratt:

Not all dolls are white, my wife is a registered childminder and in fact is 'encouraged' to supply 'ethnic' dolls for the children to play

http://www.diversedolls4all.co.uk/

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Technically in Hebrew

the Shoah is the Holocaust
a Shoah is a disaster

In reply to Jim C:

I don't remember having black Action Men.

Do they still make the things?

In reply to Removed User:

I know several people who find them offensive. They are crude caricatures, as well as the name.
it is about history and perception. Some find barbie or bratz dolls offensive for a similar reason of stereotyping/exagerration.

It's difficult to know how it affects children.

In reply to estivoautumnal:

I had one during the eighties which I'd inherited from my brother 11 years older.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Don't we have to bother about racism, with it being kind of our duty to be?

It doesn't cost a lot.

In reply to Removed User:

A coplaint? A bloody complaint? Try complaining about something like a car being vandalised, or windows being smashed, and the police shake their heads and give you a form to fill out, one mention that some way, some how, "racism" may be involved and they jump like fleas.

A sure sign of society losing its grip.

The racism industry has a lot to answer for.

In reply to stroppygob: Where might one find this industry?

In reply to Timmd: I don't understand what the racism industry is, but in other respects I think he's right. The police couldn't give a shit about "traditional" crimes (I had exactly the same experience as he describes when mine, and a number of other people's cars got scratched in one night; probably about £3k worth of damage. The police called about 2 weeks later and asked me statistical information about myself without a hint that they would try to find out who did it) but they shit themselves when they get a complaint like this from an idiot, mobilise the politically-correct media officers to say all the right words, instead of telling the stupid woman who complained to get a life. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.

In reply to Timmd:

Oh come on, surely your not that nieive...

In reply to stroppygob: I'm interested in what you see as the racism industry.

In reply to David Barratt:

Lots of things are part of history, it is a feeble excuse.

In reply to Timmd:


No we don't. What is this 'duty'? Who imposed it?
Myriad trivial complaints like this from hyper-sensitive zealots getting their knickers in a knot over nothing has left me with the rather jaundiced view that if this all they can find to get worked up about I'll get on with more important things. They see 'racism' all around them like 1950s McCathyites seeing reds under ever bed or 17th century witchfinders finding sorcery in every cottage.

In reply to Timmd:

The Centre for Research on Racism, Ethnicity and Nationalism inter-disciplinary was established in 2005 to promote the comparative study of the historically specific ways in which racism, ethnicity and nationalism have shaped the development of modern society.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/sociology/groups/ineq...

MA Racism and Ethnicity Studies10

A unique and innovatory postgrad programme combining 'leading edge' research-based teaching and systematic academic training in this interdisciplinary field.

http://cers.leeds.ac.uk/

In reply to stroppygob: If I study maths, does that make me part of the mathematics industry?

In reply to Alyson:

I blame the reactionary gobshite industry!

In reply to The New NickB:

You can't rewrite history either. Golliwogs were a fact of life when this mural was painted and removing it or destroying it now is an attempt at denial.

Much better, as has been suggested, is to leave it there and use it as a teaching tool to show how attitudes have changed since the 1930s.

In reply to Removed User:

What's actually wrong with a black doll? Isn't it just the name that could offend? So give it a different name. Slightly off subject but does anyone know why the character was invented in the first place? I'm to young to remember... I just remember the golliwogs in jam jars, but quite what they had to do with jam escapes me. I seem to remember you had to collect them and stick them in a book to get some kind of present.

It's true it's a caricature, but then perhaps we should stop drawing Chinese with slit eyes, Scots in kilts and eskimos in igloos too?

In reply to Removed User:

I particularly enjoyed the complaint that golliwogs contributed to racial caricatures by depicting black people with white eyes (sic – presumably they actually mean the , er, white of the eye). I wonder how black dolls ought to depict the eye in order not to contribute to this appalling caricature?

jcm

In reply to Trangia:

I agree completely, my comments are a response to the suggestions that 'gollywogs' are not racist.

In reply to Removed User:

Any opportunity to post the funniest thing I've ever seen in British comedy (maybe loses a little bit when shorn of some surrounding context, but still...)

youtube.com/watch?v=s2pniymmkpg&

(her "black man monkey grunting" noises are the cherry on the cake here)

In reply to Blue Straggler:

'Shorn of its surrounding context',

tidily done, I must say.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
... I just remember the golliwogs in jam jars, but quite what they had to do with jam escapes me. I seem to remember you had to collect them and stick them in a book to get some kind of present.
I posted a link earlier that had this :-

The history of Golly
This was taken from 1980/1990s Robertson's brooch marketing leaflets. The history disappeared in the late 1990s only to reappear on the Silver Millennium Golly 2000 certificate in April 2000.


James Robertson & Sons the preserve manufacturer founded in 1864, introduced the Golly as a trade mark at the turn of the century.

It was in America, just before the First World War that John Robertson (son of James Robertson) first saw the Golly doll. Whilst on a visit to the backwoods of North America he noticed many young children playing with little black rag dolls with white eyes, made from their mothers discarded black skirts and white blouses.

John Robertson was so intrigued by the popularity of the "Golly" (the name being the children's interpretation of Dolly) that he thought it would make an ideal mascot and trademark for the Robertson's range of products. The idea of a Golly trade mark was accepted by the Company and the Golly was first shown on Robertson literature in 1910, on items such as labels and price lists. Its appeal became so great that the enamel Golly brooches were introduced. The first brooch to be produced was the Golly Golfer in 1928.

In 1939 the scheme was discontinued as the metal was needed for the war effort, but by 1946 the Golly was back again. The Golly pendant was with chains was introduced by popular demand in 1956 and soon after, the design of all Gollies changed from the old Golly with "pop eyes" to the present day Golly with eyes looking to the left. The words "Golden Shred" were removed from his waistcoat, his legs straightened and smile broadened.

Over 20 million Gollies have been sent out!

In reply to Removed User: Should we also change the name of Uncle Bens rice? Uncle was a term used to describe black people... a bit racist! The answer is obviously no. It is no longer used in a racist way and neither is the golliwog doll. I doubt any of the kids thought much about the doll before this.

In reply to David Barratt:

No, an Uncle is a Jew.

You really are a fool of considerable magnitude, aren't you?

In reply to The New NickB:

"WOG:- Used as a disparaging term for a person of colour, especially a person from northern Africa or western or southern Asia.
[Probably short for golliwog.]"

The term has been pretty much sanitised/shortened to 'Golly', however, many on UKC seems bent on continuing the use of the long form 'golliwog' which could be offencive to some, so I stick with Golly.

In reply to Jim C:

>which could be offencive to some

All the more reason to carry on using it. People need to get over this notion that a word by itself, the mere sound of it, can be offensive. Otherwise you get civil servants dismissed for using the word niggardly, and the like.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You've done it now. The last time I suggested this I was trounced by a large number of people who really care. The idea that some words or speech patterns in an ever more dynamic language can be anointed as universally offensive is ridiculous. The more we reinforce this message the more we create a culture in which people are likely to take offence at words and we'll all end up a bunch of ----- ------- ----- ---- who are genuinely harmed by hearing a mere collection of sounds.

I can accept that sub-cultures can build on offensive use of language to create an air of exclusion or denigration, but that is not the same thing. They could be perfectly excluding and derogatory without any words if they wanted, so going after words is not going to do much except use up everyone else's patience for the cause and possibly get you in an South Park episode.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

>No, an Uncle is a Jew.

Is it? I've never heard that. The fellow is thinking of Uncle Toms, surely, or 'choc ices', as old fishlips calls them.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think people need to get over thinking they have a right to live in a world where they should never be offended. What's wrong with being offened at something?

In reply to Jim C:

WOG means Westernised Oriental Gentleman... not really racist as it's clearly better for the Orientals to become Westernised. In fact pretty well any word can become an insult as soon as it is understood to be one, and with the appropriate tone of voice. In the same way it can also become a term of endearment, again depending on tone of voice and situation... and, possibly, body language.

In reply to Mike Highbury:


No need for insults now! Maybe it also means Jew, I was not aware. But 'Uncle' was ALSO a term to describe older male black slaves in the deep south. Uncle Ben was a slave... It's a pitty you jump to insults so hastily.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/business/media/30adco.html?ex=1332993600&...

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

>WOG means Westernised Oriental Gentleman

I think the better view is that no-one truly knows the origin of the word.

jcm

In reply to Mike Highbury:

I thought an uncle was the brother of a parent...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Here's a site about golliwogs:

http://www.golliwogg.co.uk

Originally a nice character apparently, Enid Blyton presented them otherwise, this quote from her book "Three Golliwogs" would send many an "anti-racist" into a heart attack:

"Once the three bold Golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and Nigger, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and Nigger said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woggie and Nigger, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song - which, as you may guess, was Ten Little Nigger Boys."

More innocent or more evil times?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I think you're right. I heard the etymology for WOG was 'Working on Government Service'.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The roots of the word are hidden in antiquity as far as I can tell. The Royal Navy were calling those who hadn’t crossed the equator ‘pollywogs’ long before the 1900’s children’s book which introduced The Gollywogg. It’s hard to believe that was a total coincidence. I don’t think the 1900 author just plucked the word from the air, but we’re probably never going to know where it came from.

Interesting that in Australia ‘wog’ means Greek (and/or Mediterranean) people (and is the subject of a reclamation project by some in the spirit of ‘queer’, NWA and so forth). And for that matter here it historically meant Indian people, and/or all foreigners, beginning of course at Calais (certainly that’s how my father would jokingly use it). I’m not sure that in this country it’s ever really denoted black people specifically (as opposed to as part of the general run of foreigners), though I could be wrong.

jcm

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

A folk retro-etymology according to Wikipedia, which is obviously never wrong.

jcm

In reply to balmybaldwin: So if my aunt had balls, she would be my old black slave?

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it

In reply to Removed User:

There seem to be a lot of posts probably from white, middle-aged males on this thread - the least discriminated group in society.

Whilst I can understand some people feel that this is PC gone to far, its not an unreasonable stretch of imagination to see why someone might be offended given the history of race relations, slavery and etc.

In reply to paulcarey:


WHat make up of UKC is that? you'd expect that.. climbing is male dominated.. older people less likely to use the internet.. young less likely to use adult forums.. climbing is a predominantly still a white dominated sport..

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

It's this misappropriation of words that's so annoying, there was a thing in the press about bullying of homosexuals in schools, and the prevailant use of the phrase "that's so gay" as an insult by school kids and the effect it has on "Gay" people.

If you asked my Nan what she though of gay people, she'd witter on about how nice it is that people make an effort to brighten up the place and be jolly, as that was the original meaning of the word. (don't ask her what she thinks of homosexuals though - she's from a rather bigoted generation)

Equally, in a similar way to "Nigger" being seen as racist, but used as some form of affection/identification with others amoung the American Afro-Carribean communities with out causing offence, the phrase "That's so Gay" seems to be used similarly amoung members of the Gay community without causing offence.

No wonder it's all become such a minefield

Quite enjoying a queue of (excuse me for assuming) white men saying that golliwogs aren't offensive and arguing over the etymology of the word. Back in the day (not too long ago in reality) when black people were having "Wog!" shouted at them whilst having their heads kicked in I'm sure many of them chimed in with "Actually, I think you'll find that is an acronym for Westernised Oriental Gentleman".

Also, we could perhaps get some historical stereotypical portrayals of other minority groups up on walls, y'know, so we can learn from them. A mincing queen, perhaps, with a handkerchief sticking out his pocket; a vacuous woman diligently going about her chores; a hook-nosed Jewish figure, counting money; and a stupid Irish man just saying "Potatos!". Imagine how much children could learn!

In reply to paulcarey:

We shouldnt ignore that they happen though. I was at an old inn last night and there were paintings 100's of years old which had slaves in them. It was a fact of life and shouldn't be ignored at all. By having it in the open it reminds people of the inequalities which happened.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Whatever the origins of "wog" I've never heard it used in anything other than a derogatory sense. Even more so than words like "nigger".

In reply to paulcarey:


I can certainly imagie why someone would point it out and say, "wasn't it terrible the racism that pervaded society and allowed offensive things like that to be normal, thank god it's not like that now"

As for white, middle-aged males being the least discriminated group in society, I think we are rapidly getting to the point that they are the only group that it seems acceptable to discrimintate against (and it does happen). For example many companies, and political parties have targets to meet for employing Women or Ethinic minorities in management (Rather than to appoint managers/MPs based on the most appropriate person for the job without predjudice to race, sex, religion, sexual orientation etc)

In reply to GrahamD:

Similar, but wog is also greeks isn't it? I think aussies use it and I'm not sure if its as offensive.

In reply to Removed User:

Found this rather entertaining link while searching for the 'niggardly' story (of David Howard, if anyone cares).

>http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/sep/26/samuel-l-jackson-barack-obama

I don't know the gentleman - some kind of film actor, I gather - but I like the cut of his jib, and especially this observation.

"Look, I grew up in a society where I could say 'I ain't' or 'what it be' to my friends. But when I'm out presenting myself to the world as me, who graduated from college, who had family who cared about me, who has a well-read background, I f*cking conjugate."

F*ckin' right ON, if I might say so.

jcm

In reply to IainRUK:

FWIW I agree; someone posted earlier about using as a teaching aid. Equally you wouldn't expect to erase all traces of concentration camps, we do need to be reminded.

It's just important uderstand why someone might complain even though you might not like it, without just saying 'its PC gone mad'.

There's probabaly a whole essay in here somewhere about post-modernism and the equal validity of different groups point of view.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: He does always come across as a well rounded straight talking guy.

In reply to Removed User:

The article doesnt Elaborate on the details of the complainant.

They may be From an ethnic Minority, and been called golly or wog abusively.

In Which case their case is perfecly Understandable.

Take it down. Children can be taught about Racism in the UK without Having a Living example of it in their school.

We only ever had Robinson's mincemeat as my mum made her own jam. I thought the Gollywog was made of mincemeat as it was the only time I saw it.

I was only corrected by my brother-in-law when I was in my late 20's.

In reply to balmybaldwin:


Whilst it might seem like that, I think there's a long way to go!

In reply to IainRUK: Yes, "wog" in Australia refers to people of Latin desent and is used more commonly. Political correctness doesn't cut much ice down under

In reply to paulcarey:

I'm not saying there isn't (that's why I said rapidly getting to the point), just that the approach to positively discriminate doesn't solve the problem, it just shifts it elsewhere.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Is "not racist, in Australia" something we should be aspiring to? Besides, I think in context, Greeks and others have re-appropriated "wog" for themselves, haven't they? "In context" being a key part of that sentence.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

You seem to be implying thats a good thing?

Monkey Chants are popular at black players in east European football as well.

what fools we were for Banning it here.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Partridge's Dictionary of Slang (in a long and interesting entry) suggests that wog indeed comes from golliwog, which is in turn was derived from pollywog, which was a very old english expression for a tadpole, and soon came to mean a germ or parasite, or anything small e.g. a tea leaf floating on a cup of tea.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I am reporting you to the mods for having a racist and offensive nickname. It is well known that any use of the words 'm**key' is a blatant derogatory reference to coloured people. I know this is true because some eejit (er...I meant right thinki, racially sensitive person) reported the England manager Roy Hodgson for using it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

King Neptune usually has a retinue of Pollywogs, to dole out the punishment in 'Crossing the line' (Equator) ceremonies in the Navy

In reply to Choss: Not sure how you thought my post was implying it's a good thing. Just stating my observations from time spent down under.

In reply to Removed User:

For any folks on here who dont think golly, wog, or golliwogs, Spoken or in image, are offensive. Take some Time, watch this film. Oh and its a brilliant Piece of British realist cinema too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcb1v2oK67Y&feature=youtube_gdata_playe...

In reply to paulcarey:

No doubt you can find "someone" who is offended by it. Doesn't mean the presence of a historical children's toy on a mural needs investigation by the police on racial grounds. Or that it offends blacks in general.

My wife is black. As black as a golliwog, with big lips, white eyes and teeth and (when not straightened) frizzy afro hair. She finds it bemusing the way us whitey's start quivering at any mere hint of racial stereotyping. To most blacks it really doesn't matter one bit...and to coin a phrase, they tend to call a spade a spade themselves.

In reply to David Martin:

Clear off. No one wants that kind of sanity rearing its head on UKC

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I take it you ignored the bit in my post about context.

In reply to Wiley Coyote: How about the mass generalisation of the behaviour of a race from experience of 1 person...

In reply to GrahamD:

I've never heard it used at all, not even accompanied by people kicking someone to death because of his colour.... I must have lead a sheltered life, but as I haven't myself partaken in such abject activities either I don't feel the need to feel guilty about it either.

In reply to IainRUK:

By the nature of the complaint, where only one person has felt the need to complain to the school since the picture was drawn some 80 years ago, i would imagine the person making the complain is likely in the minority.

While my other half may not be representative of Africans in general, in my experience of her, her family and her friends her views seem very common...and her friends are very much part of the Guardian reading right-on crowd too. I doubt anyone needs reminding that there is a huge amount of casual racism between Africans; be that Nigerians against Ghanaians, Asante against Ga, West and East, and African American (of slave birth) against African American (of African descent).

In reply to David Martin:

Now I'm offended! When you repeat a well know phrase you are not coining it.

In reply to David Martin: It is still a very narrow cross section of a race...

Of course there is between the race so how can you make comments about the race in general?

In reply to IainRUK:

Perhaps put another way, how many Africans do you think are even aware of the existence of a gollywog? Narrowing the sample size down, how many in the UK would be? And of those, how many would be offended enough to want all traces of its existence removed from sight? I reckon very few. On the scale of liberal minded issues it ranks about as important as renaming manholes to personholes in the interests of gender equality. Hardly needs involvement of the local constabulary.

No doubt the doll represents a particular era, one that wasn't quite as racially enlightened as today. But I don't think many blacks are having palpitations each time they are confronted by a golliwog appearing in a children's scene. With the best of intentions, we should be wary of jumping onboard someone else's bandwagon under the assumption it represents their interests.

In reply to David Martin: No, but I never considered the golliwog particularly racist.. it was in the not PC camp.. but I was very young when it was a common term, I only really remember it for the Jam tbh.

For me the main question is always was it designed to offend.. then secondly can it offend.. and I can't really see how this issue being discussed does either.

In reply to paulcarey:


Can you let us know what it is someone should take offense to in this 1936 painting? The Golly is no more an indictment of black people than raggedy Ann and Andy are of white (or red haired) people. I see nothing to suggest that (and don't recall any) black characters, stereotyped or otherwise, in Alice in Wonderland.

Ps. No fuss about the monkey in the picture?

In reply to stroppygob:

Its about how the gollywog was negatively used in the past, nothing more.

In reply to stroppygob:

With this kind of thing, it's about the connotations that words and images carry, which they build up through history. I thought everyone knew that.

I suppose if we really liked gollywogs for their own sake of I don't know artistic merit or something, we could try to divorce them from the connotations they currently carry, but they're so thoroughly associated with out-dated racist attitudes that it would be hard work. Easier just to chuck in the bin really.

I'm not taking a view on the mural here. It's the kind of thing that's embarrassing more than offensive, I would have thought.

In reply to Removed User:

I used to work with a load of Caribbean blokes and they were deeply offended by gollies.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle: I always thought the W stood for Wily

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


It comes with being human, I'd have thought? If groups don't look out for each other in society, that's when problems start.

I'm not talking about the painting in the OP here, but as a principle for humans living together harmoniously.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Look at it like this, if you lived in a country where you were in the minority, I'm pretty sure you'd want people to start caring about racism if it was a problem, and became an obstacle in your everyday life.

In reply to stroppygob:

Why are these a bad thing?

In reply to David Martin: I'm fascinated now, what do the Nigerians say about the Ghanaians? Does it involves sheep as this seems to be a common accusation towards small neighbours?

In reply to TobyA: i think it's more along the lines of stupidity

From Nigeria online..

A boy from Makurdi went to seat for JAMB exams at Ghana. on entering the exam hall he discovered that it will not going to be easy for him to cheat. luckily for him there was this girl that looked brilliant, well dressed and with sun glasses he then said thank God, this girl must be good in English... Question paper was brought(English). when the girl shades he shades too, she shades he shades, she shades he shades, after the exam he decided to go an thank the girl..
(conversation):
Boy: he..he.. hello!
Girl: Yes
Boy: em... em.. u see
Girl: please told me what you want to told me i want to left
Boy: Ok.. left now!

After this conversation the boy went to the invigilator and asked her not to summit his paper that he was absent.


A Ghanian JJC came into a party hall in USA and at a point, everyone has to introduce themselves, the first guy intro. himself as John Kelly from westcoast. the 2nd guy as Moore Ray from eastcoast, now it was the turn of the Ghana man and he seeing that everyone had, had to add coast, coast, coast... said my name's Kofi Asiedu from Goldcoast

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Really Bruce, 'clearly better?

jk

In reply to Timmd:


That's my point. When the cry of 'Racism' goes up these days 99 times out of 100 it's this kind of complete and utter nonsense. The upshot of this is that I've stopped caring about any of it because I can't be bothered to sort the occasional important grain of wheat from the mountain of ridiculous chaff. Whether that's my fault for being a bad person or the complainers' fault for trivialising a serious issue I'll leave for others to decide.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

That's not really true.. Show 9 out of 10 times?

It does happen.. 99/100 racism complaints nonsense?

Say that about rape cases and there would be uproar... Look at the recent cases in soccer. I can only think of the Hodgson Monkey joke; most had substance.

In fact that is just clap trap..

In reply to Wiley Coyote: And yes it does say a lot about you.. maybe live in places where racism is a huge issue and you'd be more intolerant of it.

In reply to IainRUK:

Where do you live then? I thought it was Bangor... hardly a notorious racism black-spot!

In reply to Bruce Hooker: You see that question mark... click the bloody thing

In reply to Bruce Hooker: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rostock-residents-dread-20th-an...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/1103/Rostock-notorious-for-Germa...
http://www.soccergaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136155
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/soccer-dirty-tackle/hansa-rostock-fans-shower...

'Why are you friends with that n*gger'..

I've even had people describe their mates missus as 'n*ggers'..

The racism is still very very apparent and very very few will stand up. I was in a pub and was threatened.. I found it quite funny but the landlord was over in a shot. He wouldn't throw the guy out because he was a neo-nazi and a landlord cannot be seen in the city to be against them. He was very clear to the guy that i was out of bounds but warned me not to leave.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I do wonder why you fire off such insults without even checking facts for a moment.. it would make pissing on your arguments at least slightly challenging..

In reply to Removed User:

What exactly is offensive about a child's toy? It was, for many years, nothing more than that. A child's toy. Kids have dolls that are white, black, male, female and even dolls that are "anatomically endowed"!! Nothing has changed.

It is now not politically correct to call a coloured person "Black" but their level of suntan (the only difference between races)has not changed. Coloured people continue to be coloured. I am now, and have always been white. I am not offended by someone referring to the colour of my skin. I am , however, offended by some nut case who loudly proclaims that anyone who refers to me as white is racist.

Racism is caused by anyone who continues to focus on, and draw attention to differences between people from different racial groups.

Treating people of of a different race in a different manner is racist.

Are we to ban males of an Afro Caribbean race from referring to, and greeting, each other as "Nigger"? If we do not, but then loudly protest anytime someone from a Caucasian race uses the term "nigger" then we are treating the two races differently. We are treating two races differently based on skin colour. This, I would suggest, is the definitive example of racism.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I'm pretty sure the people involved in genuinely racist incidents would want people to carry on caring...

In reply to TobyA:

To be honest I'm not sure. But I hear what the Ghanains tend to say about the Nigerians....more towards the "scamming bastards" end of the spectrum .

Good natured ribbing it is, but PC it ain't.

In reply to mgco3:

Context is everything. The skinhead from Dagenham referring to blacks as "niggers" is probably not doing so as endearingly as the black hip-hop artist. On the other hand I once had an Afrikaans ex-flatmate try to tell me that his references to blacks as "Kaffir" wasn't offensive, the term apparently having some very benign historical meaning....despite the fact he did pretty much view blacks in his home country as vermin.

A lot of folk are rightly trying to make amends for the pretty horrid things we did in Africa, as well as the destructive racism that took place out of Africa. So I would caution against getting too jaded by it. While much casual racism no longer exists and such huge advances have happened in race relations that race isn't usually directly the cause of inequality, the West still has real problems with its past. The wailing that ensues when Africans, Aborigines or Maori simply try to get an apology is proof of that.

Some people do go well over the top. And there are blacks and then there are blacks. In this case, I don't understand why the woman need to even go to the police about it. Surely a talk to the principal might have allowed her time for tea and biccies and a short lesson on why there was nothing racist in the mural at all.

In reply to Timmd:

Did I say that they were a bad thing?

In reply to Removed User:

Where's Mike Highbury?
The self appointed champion and spokesperson of the ethnic minorities.

In reply to IainRUK:


Insults, what insults? Alas you seem to be in that mood, and have been for quite a while. If the place you live and the people you hang around with are so awful why don't you move and look for new friends? I can assure you that there are many places and many people where you wouldn't be subjected to such unpleasantness.

On the other hand if you think my asking you where you lived is an insult perhaps your perception of "racism" all around you is a little exaggerated too?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Eh you are a strange old man... I'm just increasingly intolerant of the nonsense you spout.

Its fine.. but you see racism a lot.. and you also see that to many tolerate it.

I just think maybe think before you spout off.. Just an idea..

Though TBH racism in North Wales had issues too.. Not the anti-english, thats nowhere near as bad. But some of the Asian families were targeted.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: And I'm in a very good mood.. My life right now is about as good as it gets.. I just don't tolerate racism.. idiotic I know.

In reply to IainRUK:

So you are not racist but you are "ageist"! Remember one thing, your skin won't change colour but you will put on a year every year and when you are my age, assuming you survive the violent mayhem you appear to live in, then like me you won't feel "old", in fact you'll probably feel a lot younger than you do now. On the other hand you might just get older and bitterer than you come across as now. Who knows?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: No.. I just think as you have got old you've got angry at the world, confused.. bitter.

All I said that if they lived in a place with racism they would be more intolerant and not think 99 out of 100 times it was rubbish..

You decided to leap in that Wales wasn't that bad... a place I haven't lived in for a year..


It is not violent.. you are taking extremes.. trying to talk like you have a clue.. so why do it? You get isolated cases of neo-nazism.. enough to annoy you.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: why use exclamation marks? !! you were trying to belittle me.. as though I was making out Bangor to be some racist hot spot.. it was insulting and a typical approach from you.

Not that I live in the most racist state in Germany with the strongest neo-nazi presence. So yes.. before you make such comments with !! just look..

In reply to IainRUK:

You're quite quick to to call people 'turds' etc.
You're an aggorant loud mouth.
You're an emarrassment to academia!


Thanks to pricks like you middle class ponces, I now rememeber the word Gollywog, most people had forget about it decades ago.

Most of you lot on haven't got a f*cking clue!

In reply to Lusk: Insightful.. witty.. and I'm quick to insult.. post of the day?

In reply to IainRUK:

I'm too lazy too type my full explanation!

To summarise, massive over reaction for a black faced doll.
Making a point of it has created an unnecessary amount of trouble that didn't exist in the first place.

In reply to Lusk: Then just use exclamation marks with no argument.. it's far more persuasive..

I sort of agree, but for my generation (you are totally anonymous) gollywog (or versions) was barely, if ever, used as an insult, by then it had been replaced by other words.

I think the painting is fine, but I don't think we should paint over our past. In an extreme way its like Germany bulldozing all concentration camps, or the US ignoring its slave past.

But I do think many posters here, white middle class, think racism is a thing of the past when it isn't. It's much less, but we are seeing it more and more in the UK again.. in different guises but its still an issue.

In reply to Removed User:

That's exciting! It must be the cold case squad. I wonder if they have any leads yet? It's got to be one of the pupils that was there in 1936, was it on the bog wall? That could point to gender and really cut down on enquiries. I reckon the team will be focussing on a small group of individuals by now and homing in on the culprit.

In reply to mgco3:


Well it isn't. It's an example of how context changes the connotations carried by language. A similar example is the word "queer" that has been used a lot to insult gay people and has more recently been used by gay and transgender etc people to define themselves.

Just like "nigger", "queer" carries different connotations depending on whether the person saying it belongs to the group that the word has been used against in the past. I know it's complicated the way that history creates the context in which these kinds of words are used, but my advice is that you get used to it because that's how the world works. Pretending that everyone can just be treated precisely equally without regard to history isn't going to work well. The world just isn't that simple.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Exactly..its hardly rocket science.. as I said its simply two questions..

Did it mean to cause offence..
Can it cause offence..

The first is more of an issue, the second is often clumsy rather than malicious. Hodgsons monkey joke a classic example.

In reply to IainRUK:

Born 1960, GWs were things found on jars of jam!
Long since forgotten before PC idiots dragged them up again.
We buy drugs on a regular basis from our coloured friends, now I'm going to think of fruit based products when doing a deal.

What a complete load of bollocks the original complaint is!!!!!!

In reply to Lusk:

So what was the nature of the original complaint? Who made it and under what circumstances?

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle: A mother at the school. I don't think it is racist at all. I'm not one for the 'PC gone mad' argument, but in this occasion I think it is appropriate. Read the original article and look at the image.

In reply to Lusk:

Boiling tar and plucking chickens

In reply to IainRUK:

Is the complainant black, or someone getting offended on someone's behalf?

I agree about the mural, but a bunch of white men stating that golliwogs (and even the word 'wog') aren't offensive leaves an unfortunate taste in the mouth.

In reply to David Martin: I think Nigerians have a rep for that across Africa. What was the funny South African alien movie a few years back called? There was discussion around that using negative stereotypes of Nigerians.

From my Finnish class my Cameroonian and Somali mates had great fun pointing out to our Kenyan mate that "everyone knows" Kenyan women are the worse cooks in Africa. He looked grumpy at this but didn't actually try to argue against it very strongly! I had some really nice Cameroonian food at a school fair recently cooked by a mum of one of my son's classmates, so perhaps Cameroonians are good cooks; not so sure about Somalis culinary superiority to their southern neighbours though!

In reply to TobyA: District 9

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


I haven't noticed anyone saying "wog" isn't offensive on this thread... are you sure you haven't imagined it?