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The new guide says that the peg on p2 might be suspect & notes the use of a skyhook. I thought the peg on p2 was at the end of the scary bit, does this mean its got a lot more dangerous? If so is replacing the peg in the rules & does anyone fancy replacing it before next summer???
It also moves Arcturus up to e2 from a low end e1. Is this due to the nature of the peg on pitch one of Arcturus?
It also moves Arcturus up to e2 from a low end e1. Is this due to the nature of the peg on pitch one of Arcturus?
In reply to leon:
I used a skyhook on cruel sister. just off the belay when you pull onto the wall there's an obvious place. otherwise no gear. the peg is one or two moves further right/up i think? it looks old (original?) but i think i got a decent offset wire next to it. it did feel pretty serious at the time.
I used a skyhook on cruel sister. just off the belay when you pull onto the wall there's an obvious place. otherwise no gear. the peg is one or two moves further right/up i think? it looks old (original?) but i think i got a decent offset wire next to it. it did feel pretty serious at the time.
In reply to ctodd:
You can get a small hex (#2 or #3) in near the lip of the roof before you commit yourself. I think there's only one or two hard moves after the peg and once you are on the rib it's plain sailing.
Why on earth has Arcturus gone up to E2? There's gear a metre or so away from the peg and it's only the one move anyway.
ALC
You can get a small hex (#2 or #3) in near the lip of the roof before you commit yourself. I think there's only one or two hard moves after the peg and once you are on the rib it's plain sailing.
Why on earth has Arcturus gone up to E2? There's gear a metre or so away from the peg and it's only the one move anyway.
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber:
>Why on earth has Arcturus gone up to E2?
HVS in my day, youth.
At least I think so. I don't have it to hand, but didn't the old 70's (blue?) guide give it HVS?
jcm
>Why on earth has Arcturus gone up to E2?
HVS in my day, youth.
At least I think so. I don't have it to hand, but didn't the old 70's (blue?) guide give it HVS?
jcm
In reply to leon:
This is a timely post, because I recently re-acquainted myself with this very route - an experience which raised many more questions than answers!
Cruel Sister was my first ever E3, way back in 1980. On that occasion, a combination of psyche, burning desire and teenage gung ho propelled me - on sight - up that wall in a jiffy, and my memories of the experience are somewhat hazy.
The end of September 2013 saw me return to Pavey on a perfect autumn day, the first time I'd been back there in years.
After acquainting myself with Capella (which I don't think had been excavated the last time I was at Pavey) we decided to try Cruel Sister.
After a few false starts, I found the key to the initial traverse onto the wall, which is actually relatively straightforward (if rather bold) once you find the correct level. This felt familiar, and you arrive on a good foothold beneath the peg.
The first thing which I didn't remember at all, was the precarious stretch up to clip the peg - though it is possible that peg had a situ sling on it back in 1980, as I think this was originally the case.
Anyway, I clipped it and got a backup nut to its left, and my impression of the peg (I didn't test it) was that it was absolutely fine. It showed no signs of rust, and certainly didn't look to me like it needed replacing.
But having got the peg clipped, I then found the next 20ft section completely confusing, and nothing like I remembered it. First of all I headed up and slightly left, following a fairly easy set of narrow shelves, until I was facing a precarious move up and right to an overlap. But that move looked hard, and I was way above the peg, so I reversed back down for a re-think. I then tried traversing right to the arête, on a line of thin undercuts at the back of an overlap, which seemed much harder than the wall I had just gone up and down, but had the advantage of being nearer the peg.
I stuck with the traverse and made it to the arête, where a couple of moves up a nut placement was spotted with some relief.
I moved up left towards the line of the upper crack, standing on thin footholds which had my chalk from my earlier attempt to climb direct.
The rest of the pitch went fine, but the whole experience was nothing like I remembered it!
I had a look on the UKC logbooks and discovered that at least one person had successfully climbed direct (ie. missing out the second traverse right) so clearly I'm not the only one confused by the line in recent years.
Here are some other random thoughts on Cruel Sister, which may or may not help you:-
1 - It is considerably more mossy than it was in 1980, and the line is not completely obvious (particularly if there is no chalk on it, as was the case at the end of September).
2 - The peg doesn't need replacing and the skyhook comment is both offputting and unnecessary. Most people don't carry skyhooks, and including references to obscure placements unearthed by those who do, in the descriptions of classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery, is an unwelcome trend.
3 - The second traverse right (from the peg, to the arête) if it follows the undercuts, is probably 6a. And if it doesn't follow the undercuts, just how do you do it?!
4 - Cruel Sister is a brilliant route, but in my recent encounter it felt very bold to me. Quite how I chose it for my first E3 and emerged unscathed from the experience, I will never know!
5- Modern climbers are probably a bunch of scaredy cats.
6 - Pavey Ark on a perfect autumnal afternoon is a lovely place to be....
Neil
This is a timely post, because I recently re-acquainted myself with this very route - an experience which raised many more questions than answers!
Cruel Sister was my first ever E3, way back in 1980. On that occasion, a combination of psyche, burning desire and teenage gung ho propelled me - on sight - up that wall in a jiffy, and my memories of the experience are somewhat hazy.
The end of September 2013 saw me return to Pavey on a perfect autumn day, the first time I'd been back there in years.
After acquainting myself with Capella (which I don't think had been excavated the last time I was at Pavey) we decided to try Cruel Sister.
After a few false starts, I found the key to the initial traverse onto the wall, which is actually relatively straightforward (if rather bold) once you find the correct level. This felt familiar, and you arrive on a good foothold beneath the peg.
The first thing which I didn't remember at all, was the precarious stretch up to clip the peg - though it is possible that peg had a situ sling on it back in 1980, as I think this was originally the case.
Anyway, I clipped it and got a backup nut to its left, and my impression of the peg (I didn't test it) was that it was absolutely fine. It showed no signs of rust, and certainly didn't look to me like it needed replacing.
But having got the peg clipped, I then found the next 20ft section completely confusing, and nothing like I remembered it. First of all I headed up and slightly left, following a fairly easy set of narrow shelves, until I was facing a precarious move up and right to an overlap. But that move looked hard, and I was way above the peg, so I reversed back down for a re-think. I then tried traversing right to the arête, on a line of thin undercuts at the back of an overlap, which seemed much harder than the wall I had just gone up and down, but had the advantage of being nearer the peg.
I stuck with the traverse and made it to the arête, where a couple of moves up a nut placement was spotted with some relief.
I moved up left towards the line of the upper crack, standing on thin footholds which had my chalk from my earlier attempt to climb direct.
The rest of the pitch went fine, but the whole experience was nothing like I remembered it!
I had a look on the UKC logbooks and discovered that at least one person had successfully climbed direct (ie. missing out the second traverse right) so clearly I'm not the only one confused by the line in recent years.
Here are some other random thoughts on Cruel Sister, which may or may not help you:-
1 - It is considerably more mossy than it was in 1980, and the line is not completely obvious (particularly if there is no chalk on it, as was the case at the end of September).
2 - The peg doesn't need replacing and the skyhook comment is both offputting and unnecessary. Most people don't carry skyhooks, and including references to obscure placements unearthed by those who do, in the descriptions of classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery, is an unwelcome trend.
3 - The second traverse right (from the peg, to the arête) if it follows the undercuts, is probably 6a. And if it doesn't follow the undercuts, just how do you do it?!
4 - Cruel Sister is a brilliant route, but in my recent encounter it felt very bold to me. Quite how I chose it for my first E3 and emerged unscathed from the experience, I will never know!
5- Modern climbers are probably a bunch of scaredy cats.
6 - Pavey Ark on a perfect autumnal afternoon is a lovely place to be....
Neil
1
In reply to Neil Foster:
Was it Cruel Sister than Allan A refused at first to put in the guide, because if you couldn't do something then walking round, abseiling down and dangling a sling down the hard bit so that you could do it, didn't actually mean that the problem had been solved. Something splendidly old-school along those lines.
He did have a point, mind.
jcm
Was it Cruel Sister than Allan A refused at first to put in the guide, because if you couldn't do something then walking round, abseiling down and dangling a sling down the hard bit so that you could do it, didn't actually mean that the problem had been solved. Something splendidly old-school along those lines.
He did have a point, mind.
jcm
In reply to Ian Parsons:
I probably should Ian. She certainly led the first pitch (which includes the "E2" bit of Arcturus) easily enough...
I probably should Ian. She certainly led the first pitch (which includes the "E2" bit of Arcturus) easily enough...
In reply to Neil Foster:
Some (OK many) years ago there was a group of us climbing on Pavey including a lass who hadn't done much climbing but who was capable of HVS on the lead.. We came back to the bottom of the crag to see her halfway up the upper rib of CSS.
"What are you doing?"
"Arcturus "
"No you are not"
"What am I on then?"
"Cruel Sister"
"What grade's that then?"
"E3"
"Oh"
At this she promptly reversed back to the stance, cleanly down climbing all the crux section. In retrospect, we should have let her carry on.
ALC
Some (OK many) years ago there was a group of us climbing on Pavey including a lass who hadn't done much climbing but who was capable of HVS on the lead.. We came back to the bottom of the crag to see her halfway up the upper rib of CSS.
"What are you doing?"
"Arcturus "
"No you are not"
"What am I on then?"
"Cruel Sister"
"What grade's that then?"
"E3"
"Oh"
At this she promptly reversed back to the stance, cleanly down climbing all the crux section. In retrospect, we should have let her carry on.
ALC
In reply to Neil Foster:
<< classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery,>>
Just to don my "Mr Pedant of Redditch" hat for a moment - ok, ok; I rarely actually take it off - would it be fair to point out in this instance, bearing in mind that on the first ascent a hook was used for aid to reach the peg, that your statement above isn't strictly correct?
<< classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery,>>
Just to don my "Mr Pedant of Redditch" hat for a moment - ok, ok; I rarely actually take it off - would it be fair to point out in this instance, bearing in mind that on the first ascent a hook was used for aid to reach the peg, that your statement above isn't strictly correct?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Same thing happened with The Graduate (on Deer Bield) and Fine Time. All three went free within a few years of course.
> Was it Cruel Sister than Allan A refused at first to put in the guide, because if you couldn't do something then walking round, abseiling down and dangling a sling down the hard bit so that you could do it, didn't actually mean that the problem had been solved.
Same thing happened with The Graduate (on Deer Bield) and Fine Time. All three went free within a few years of course.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I never quite understood why the sling was dangled - did Rob go straight over the roof? I seem to remember sort of stepping up and over it and moving up the the peg, and it wasn't that hard. I did it about two months after Neil (as my first E3 - working on the principle if Foster can do it so can I) and i also can't remember much about it - although I seem to recall being surprised that the ledge I was resting on before the next bit was actually the end of the pitch and it was actually all over - that teenage psyche again...
And Arcturus is never E2 in a month of Sundays - HVS as jcm says.
> Was it Cruel Sister than Allan A refused at first to put in the guide, because if you couldn't do something then walking round, abseiling down and dangling a sling down the hard bit so that you could do it, didn't actually mean that the problem had been solved. Something splendidly old-school along those lines.
> He did have a point, mind.
> jcm
I never quite understood why the sling was dangled - did Rob go straight over the roof? I seem to remember sort of stepping up and over it and moving up the the peg, and it wasn't that hard. I did it about two months after Neil (as my first E3 - working on the principle if Foster can do it so can I) and i also can't remember much about it - although I seem to recall being surprised that the ledge I was resting on before the next bit was actually the end of the pitch and it was actually all over - that teenage psyche again...
And Arcturus is never E2 in a month of Sundays - HVS as jcm says.
In reply to a lakeland climber:
And all that after carrying that massive rock in her sac that some scoundrel popped in there when she went for a wee...
> Some (OK many) years ago there was a group of us climbing on Pavey including a lass who hadn't done much climbing but who was capable of HVS on the lead.. We came back to the bottom of the crag to see her halfway up the upper rib of CSS.
And all that after carrying that massive rock in her sac that some scoundrel popped in there when she went for a wee...
In reply to andy:
Done it a few times, probably in 78, 81 and 2000, maybe more.
In 78, I remember two options to gain the peg, on the right better protected but more thuggy, guess which option I took.
Cannot remember about 1981 but in 2000 the right hand option had lost a large hold on the lip of the overhang. I think this makes the LH way the only option, because of no handhold and the traverse above harder because of a foot hold loss.
Rob disputes the sling length, he and Austin were at loggerheads over quite a few issues and routes at the time. Hard to believe the Angry Pensioner was a young upstart in the day.
Done it a few times, probably in 78, 81 and 2000, maybe more.
In 78, I remember two options to gain the peg, on the right better protected but more thuggy, guess which option I took.
Cannot remember about 1981 but in 2000 the right hand option had lost a large hold on the lip of the overhang. I think this makes the LH way the only option, because of no handhold and the traverse above harder because of a foot hold loss.
Rob disputes the sling length, he and Austin were at loggerheads over quite a few issues and routes at the time. Hard to believe the Angry Pensioner was a young upstart in the day.
In reply to Rick Graham:
>...and the traverse above harder because of a foot hold loss.
Well thank goodness for that! Perhaps I hadn't completely lost it afterall?
What I thought was interesting going back to repeat a route like Cruel Sister, some 33 years since I last did it, was having the chance to compare experiences and get a modern perspective.
I am a lot older, but also somewhat wiser, but I still felt like I needed to deploy a level of cunning and tenacity which was rather more than I expected.
Of course what you can never replicate is the original level of psyche, no matter how hard you try. As a callow 17 year old, on the last day of his Whitsuntide school holiday, if I could have bottled the desire cursing through my veins as I set out that day, I could have retired on the proceeds.
But it is interesting just how many opinions regarding hard trad climbing expressed on forums like this, are actually from old farts who are remembering (as best they can) an experience from glory days long since passed.
We might be willing to share those memories when someone asks, but I'm not entirely sure how applicable they are to current times. Afterall, as Andy said to me today, A Lakeland Climber is actually now A Yorkshire Cyclist - which is a completely different acronym!
That was why I thought it was interesting to attempt to describe the contrast in my two experiences of Cruel Sister, particularly as the second one actually happened within a timeframe which meant I could properly remember it...
Now, where's Robbie Matheson when you need him...?
Neil
>...and the traverse above harder because of a foot hold loss.
Well thank goodness for that! Perhaps I hadn't completely lost it afterall?
What I thought was interesting going back to repeat a route like Cruel Sister, some 33 years since I last did it, was having the chance to compare experiences and get a modern perspective.
I am a lot older, but also somewhat wiser, but I still felt like I needed to deploy a level of cunning and tenacity which was rather more than I expected.
Of course what you can never replicate is the original level of psyche, no matter how hard you try. As a callow 17 year old, on the last day of his Whitsuntide school holiday, if I could have bottled the desire cursing through my veins as I set out that day, I could have retired on the proceeds.
But it is interesting just how many opinions regarding hard trad climbing expressed on forums like this, are actually from old farts who are remembering (as best they can) an experience from glory days long since passed.
We might be willing to share those memories when someone asks, but I'm not entirely sure how applicable they are to current times. Afterall, as Andy said to me today, A Lakeland Climber is actually now A Yorkshire Cyclist - which is a completely different acronym!
That was why I thought it was interesting to attempt to describe the contrast in my two experiences of Cruel Sister, particularly as the second one actually happened within a timeframe which meant I could properly remember it...
Now, where's Robbie Matheson when you need him...?
Neil
In reply to Neil Foster:
if I could have bottled the desire cursing through my veins as I set out that day, I could have retired on the proceeds.
Great quote - I'd copyright it if I were you and/or use it in your memoirs..after inserting the extra 'o'!
if I could have bottled the desire cursing through my veins as I set out that day, I could have retired on the proceeds.
Great quote - I'd copyright it if I were you and/or use it in your memoirs..after inserting the extra 'o'!
In reply to Neil Foster:
>
Hi Neil
Your hassles probably resulted from a combination of trying to climb from memory and the over confidence of an 8a and E7 climber.
After a minor spanking you started to take it seriously and look for the holds and runners, problem solved.
>
> But having got the peg clipped, I then found the next 20ft section completely confusing, and nothing like I remembered it. First of all I headed up and slightly left, following a fairly easy set of narrow shelves, until I was facing a precarious move up and right to an overlap. But that move looked hard, and I was way above the peg, so I reversed back down for a re-think. I then tried traversing right to the arête, on a line of thin undercuts at the back of an overlap, which seemed much harder than the wall I had just gone up and down, but had the advantage of being nearer the peg.
> I stuck with the traverse and made it to the arête, where a couple of moves up a nut placement was spotted with some relief.
> I moved up left towards the line of the upper crack, standing on thin footholds which had my chalk from my earlier attempt to climb direct.
> The rest of the pitch went fine, but the whole experience was nothing like I remembered it!
Hi Neil
Your hassles probably resulted from a combination of trying to climb from memory and the over confidence of an 8a and E7 climber.
After a minor spanking you started to take it seriously and look for the holds and runners, problem solved.
In reply to Neil Foster:
"2 - The peg doesn't need replacing and the skyhook comment is both offputting and unnecessary. Most people don't carry skyhooks, and including references to obscure placements unearthed by those who do, in the descriptions of classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery, is an unwelcome trend."
I've seen more old boys with skyhooks in the lakes than any other part of the uk. Everyone we spoke to about this route mentioned the skyhook before we did it. I wouldnt fancy factor 2'ing the belay without it...we didn't find any hex in the roof. I guess back in 1980 we may have been carrying one mind...
"2 - The peg doesn't need replacing and the skyhook comment is both offputting and unnecessary. Most people don't carry skyhooks, and including references to obscure placements unearthed by those who do, in the descriptions of classic routes which have always traditionally been climbed with no such skulduggery, is an unwelcome trend."
I've seen more old boys with skyhooks in the lakes than any other part of the uk. Everyone we spoke to about this route mentioned the skyhook before we did it. I wouldnt fancy factor 2'ing the belay without it...we didn't find any hex in the roof. I guess back in 1980 we may have been carrying one mind...
In reply to david morse:
Not me, but I think I know who you mean
> I've seen more old boys with skyhooks in the lakes
Not me, but I think I know who you mean
In reply to leon:
Thanks for the replies. I'm even more inspired to climb this route. Although now I'm thinking there's a high possibility of being really scared shortly before falling off a 6a move.
Interesting to hear it is more mossy, I guess because it is climbed less? I met an old timer at Chee Tor telling me how the walls used to be plastered in chalk, now they're just plastered in cob webs. He reckoned less people trad climbed. I reckon there is probably at least as many trad climbers as yesteryear (guess) it just that the hard trad climbers now prefer sport.
As for old trad climbers being bolder. Don't forget that in them days you had only a cold, dark cave to look forward too at the end of the day, and if the climb didn't get you the t-rexs or sabre tooths probably would.
Thanks for the replies. I'm even more inspired to climb this route. Although now I'm thinking there's a high possibility of being really scared shortly before falling off a 6a move.
Interesting to hear it is more mossy, I guess because it is climbed less? I met an old timer at Chee Tor telling me how the walls used to be plastered in chalk, now they're just plastered in cob webs. He reckoned less people trad climbed. I reckon there is probably at least as many trad climbers as yesteryear (guess) it just that the hard trad climbers now prefer sport.
As for old trad climbers being bolder. Don't forget that in them days you had only a cold, dark cave to look forward too at the end of the day, and if the climb didn't get you the t-rexs or sabre tooths probably would.
In reply to Neil Foster: Regarding your point 2, about mentioning skyhooks/obscure protection being both unnecessary and an unwelcome trend, you're wrong. It's useful, informative and is how climbing is evolving. I often climb with a skyhook and I know many who do...it's not that unusual these days.
Hoping to keep useful information like that 'secret' seems rather odd. I'll be making sure to take my hooks next time I'm on Pavey. As usual.
Hoping to keep useful information like that 'secret' seems rather odd. I'll be making sure to take my hooks next time I'm on Pavey. As usual.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Wasn't here quite a spat between Matheson & Austin over CS, as there was over a number of other routes included/excluded from the FRCC Guide, such as Ragmans Trumpet/Sally Free & Easy, and The Cumbrian.
It seemed that if you were in the FRCC, your route got in, if you weren't it didn't.
> Was it Cruel Sister than Allan A refused at first to put in the guide, because if you couldn't do something then walking round, abseiling down and dangling a sling down the hard bit so that you could do it, didn't actually mean that the problem had been solved. Something splendidly old-school along those lines.
> He did have a point, mind.
Wasn't here quite a spat between Matheson & Austin over CS, as there was over a number of other routes included/excluded from the FRCC Guide, such as Ragmans Trumpet/Sally Free & Easy, and The Cumbrian.
It seemed that if you were in the FRCC, your route got in, if you weren't it didn't.
In reply to leon:
A Cave! That's luxury!
> As for old trad climbers being bolder. Don't forget that in them days you had only a cold, dark cave to look forward too at the end of the day, and if the climb didn't get you the t-rexs or sabre tooths probably would.
A Cave! That's luxury!
In reply to Goucho:
CS was one of my first E3 leads as well (not a lot of them !) and seemed to go better than I had expected - maybe that is the clouds of time - or I was having a good day.
We update the history in the Langdale guide - with Max having a crack with Alan Austin about the controversy of the 1970's.
CS was one of my first E3 leads as well (not a lot of them !) and seemed to go better than I had expected - maybe that is the clouds of time - or I was having a good day.
We update the history in the Langdale guide - with Max having a crack with Alan Austin about the controversy of the 1970's.
In reply to Goucho:
That was just so true at the time, if you were not in the FRCC 'in crowd' then the first ascent by FRCC members was recorded as the first free ascent, even if after massive cleaning on sight using aid to rest was then dispennsed with a day or two later by the true first ascenionists, the Austin/Roper FRCC team got the first free ascent, e.g in my own case White Ghyll Eliminate (on which Austin completely stole the top pitch led by Dave Parker on sight and completely clean, for his own Haste Not Direct), Aragorn (two points of aid used for cleaning) and others. Stephen Reid has corrected some of these anomalies in recent years.
I did the third ascent of Cruel Sister, with Dave Pearce leading the crux pitch, it is a long time ago but I can't remember the benefit of a long sling attatched to the peg.
> It seemed that if you were in the FRCC, your route got in, if you weren't it didn't.
That was just so true at the time, if you were not in the FRCC 'in crowd' then the first ascent by FRCC members was recorded as the first free ascent, even if after massive cleaning on sight using aid to rest was then dispennsed with a day or two later by the true first ascenionists, the Austin/Roper FRCC team got the first free ascent, e.g in my own case White Ghyll Eliminate (on which Austin completely stole the top pitch led by Dave Parker on sight and completely clean, for his own Haste Not Direct), Aragorn (two points of aid used for cleaning) and others. Stephen Reid has corrected some of these anomalies in recent years.
I did the third ascent of Cruel Sister, with Dave Pearce leading the crux pitch, it is a long time ago but I can't remember the benefit of a long sling attatched to the peg.
In reply to Al Evans:
I did CS in around 79'/80' and I can't remember much about it other than it seemed to be a couple of thinish moves, and the rest was pretty straightforward - I seem to recall there was a sling on the peg though.
I did CS in around 79'/80' and I can't remember much about it other than it seemed to be a couple of thinish moves, and the rest was pretty straightforward - I seem to recall there was a sling on the peg though.
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
Wasn't this around the same time as the spat between Livesey and the FRCC/Rod Valentine over Ragmans/Sally Free & Easy?
Never actually understood the fuss, as neither line gets much beyond mediocre at best.
Wasn't this around the same time as the spat between Livesey and the FRCC/Rod Valentine over Ragmans/Sally Free & Easy?
Never actually understood the fuss, as neither line gets much beyond mediocre at best.
In reply to Goucho:
I suspect the genesis of the spat had little to do with the merits of either route.
Pete represented a new era. The prevailing powers didn't like it. That's my reading of things.
Mick
I suspect the genesis of the spat had little to do with the merits of either route.
Pete represented a new era. The prevailing powers didn't like it. That's my reading of things.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
It wasn't just Pete though, there was Rob, and Col Read and Johnny Adams, all before Pete, and prior to that Paul Ross who still posts on here, and odd couples like me and Dave who challenged the FRCC but it was impossible to get through their guidebook dominance, even when Paul published his pirate guide to Borrowdale, a landmark guide, the FRCC still shunned him and any other outsiders.
It wasn't just Pete though, there was Rob, and Col Read and Johnny Adams, all before Pete, and prior to that Paul Ross who still posts on here, and odd couples like me and Dave who challenged the FRCC but it was impossible to get through their guidebook dominance, even when Paul published his pirate guide to Borrowdale, a landmark guide, the FRCC still shunned him and any other outsiders.
In reply to Al Evans:
Hi Al, totally accept others had been shunned. Perhaps Pete was more combative though; he certainly wasn't going to go away.
These types of conflict can be highly emotionally upsetting. You may be willing to risk your life on the rock yet not want the emotional upheaval of struggling with the establishment. Not everyone's as combative through and through as the likes of Pete, or say Stevie. And even if you are, I'm sure it can get wearying.
Mick
Hi Al, totally accept others had been shunned. Perhaps Pete was more combative though; he certainly wasn't going to go away.
These types of conflict can be highly emotionally upsetting. You may be willing to risk your life on the rock yet not want the emotional upheaval of struggling with the establishment. Not everyone's as combative through and through as the likes of Pete, or say Stevie. And even if you are, I'm sure it can get wearying.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
The FRCC were evenly balanced during that period though - chips on both shoulders
> I suspect the genesis of the spat had little to do with the merits of either route.
> Pete represented a new era. The prevailing powers didn't like it. That's my reading of things.
> Mick
The FRCC were evenly balanced during that period though - chips on both shoulders
In reply to Neil Foster:
That's fascinating - I had almost exactly the same experience on this route a couple of years ago after a 25 year gap between first climbing it and a re-ascent.
It felt completely confusing as you say - I vaguely think I went above the peg some way and traversed precariously right to a foothold at gear by which time I was miles above the peg and the belay (with runner under roof) and nothing else.
It felt very very bold but I put it down to the passage of time and probably a loss of psyche, burning desire and teenage gungho that you describe - more of the later I expect.
That said it is a fantastic trip on a beautiful piece of rock well worth the truly classic trad experience - one of the best in the Lakes.
That's fascinating - I had almost exactly the same experience on this route a couple of years ago after a 25 year gap between first climbing it and a re-ascent.
It felt completely confusing as you say - I vaguely think I went above the peg some way and traversed precariously right to a foothold at gear by which time I was miles above the peg and the belay (with runner under roof) and nothing else.
It felt very very bold but I put it down to the passage of time and probably a loss of psyche, burning desire and teenage gungho that you describe - more of the later I expect.
That said it is a fantastic trip on a beautiful piece of rock well worth the truly classic trad experience - one of the best in the Lakes.
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