UKC

Is there an easy way to the top from the end of the lower slab routes? (So we don't have do go back down via the scramble).

Going up Lazerous (s), then The Arete (vd) seems to get us most of the way to the top. What's the ground like above that?

In reply to mmmhumous:

I wish I knew. When I did the scramble down I vowed to all the gods of the slabs that when I got home I would practice down-climbing All The Time.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Not sure what you are getting at - which way down did you ultimately want to take? You can carry on scrambling up quite a way, though it gets very broken, or you can make your way over towards the Grey Group and climb even further. By then you have the mammoth descent down via Devil's Kitchen.

So it depends on what you are trying to do.

In reply to mmmhumous:

If you don't want to do the (I find it hideous) descent, you can continue scrambling upwards until you get to Seniors Ridge and then drop down via Cwm Cneifion.

In reply to mmmhumous:

I believe you can abseil from the large block at the top of Tennis Shoe?

In reply to mmmhumous:

Surely if you are worried about the down climb just set up a simple absail. There are obvious anchors and it takes a few seconds to set up. I've done this a couple of times, first time we didn't know what it was like then a second time when we were all knackered and couldn't be bothered taking the risk. It's so simple to set up. As a slight word of warning, the arete is quite poorly protected for a vdiff.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I had a great day out on the slabs/continuation routes with the wife a couple of years ago. I remember climbing the arete with a rucksack on, feeling a bit unbalanced by it, and as a result feeling quite excited by the pitch. Great climbing with spaced protection. I was leading E2 at the time

In reply to mmmhumous:

The scramble down isn't too bad and there is no need to ab at all.

I'm fairly sure after finishing any/most of the idwal slabs routes you can fairly easily reach the scramble descent or indeed Glyder Fawr (without the need to make the climbing harder by doing Lazerous / the arete (and also from these) but thats only from looking at the ground rather than trying), from Glyder Fawr the easiest descent is down the ridge Cneifion Arete tops out on.

If you are climbing well you can tag this on the end too http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34092

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=435

In reply to mmmhumous:

When you get to the top of the slabs, you just walk / scramble to the bottom of Lazerous. From there you can head up Continuity Buttress for a pitch. You then have a longish traverse / scramble to the bottom of Grey Slabs. Pick your route, but the arete is fantastic if you are up for a little HVS action. This gives another three pitches and then from the top it is a long scramble / plod. You probably only get about 10 pitches of climbing over 2000ft of ascent. It is one of the best outings in North Wales, but not really comparable to a classic Alpine outing.

In reply to ByEek:

You can also enchain another route on continuation wall and scramble over to the grey slabs area. When we did it we enchained: tennis shoe, Javelin Buttress, Groove Above and Central Arete.

In reply to mmmhumous:

No one seems to have answered your question very clearly. Above Continuation Walll you scramble easily up and left up rock steps to cwm Cneifon. From there: a path leads out the other side of the cwm, a gully drops direct back down to the base of the slabs, various scrambles lead up to the tops, but best of all Cneifon Arete is like a magnet across the lip of the cwm. Take care with The Arete as its a VS leaders VD being very bold so no place to be climbing nervously: I think Lazarus is adectivally easier.

In reply to mmmhumous:

You can reach the gully easily on two 50m ropes and probably on a single 50m if you abseil. If you climb down you can easily protect the last person by running the rope around one of the bollards at the top and flicking it off afterwards. The awkward bit is only a few feet at the top.

In reply to wilkesley:
I understand why some abseil down the descent scramble but too often the people doing this are glacially slow and this create queues and gets people cold. In most nervous groups its way better as a descent to scramble up a hundred metres to reach the top of the descent gully. Im always happy with that descent but many won't be if its wet ( or not uncommonly in the colder months holding some ice).

In reply to mmmhumous: If you really are nervy you could down lead it. but like said take some tat and abseil if you prefer

In reply to Offwidth:

To be clear you can also do this from the top of Ordinary Route et al by following the scrathed arrows to just before the abseil/downclimb of the 'easy way off' and then going up the rock steps as Offwidth describes.

In reply to mmmhumous:

We're headed up to Glyder Fawr and then onwards. I've only ever come off the slabs via the descent gully so was wondering if there's an easy way to the top, either by a scramble, or preferbly something gradedin the VD-HS range.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Then I'd suggest Lazarus and Groove Above as both are fun at S and then scrambling up and left. Or include Central Arete as Curly Stevo said as it is another great route - it is a simple walk over from Groove Above.

In reply to mmmhumous:

I find this stuff so bizarre. When the hell did abseiling down the descent path from the Slabs become a thing? I'm sure they didn't used to do it in the fifties.

As to the OP, I don't understand the question. Once you've topped out the slabs you're on a piece of hillside. You can either walk up to the ridge across some more hillside, or down to the bottom, following the description of the latter route in the guidebook if necessary as a last resort. If you need to wipe your own arse during this process, I find it's usually best to call mountain rescue.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

there is at least one section that is fairly routinely abseiled just before the gully, last time we went around the abseilers and scrambled down some ground that was at most grade 2 scrambling.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh wow. Another snide comment about how people used to do things. YAWN. Are you not bored of being a constant moaning curmudgeon by now? Who gives a rats arse what people did in the 50s. It probably wasn't polished to a sheen only outshone by your ego at that time.

In reply to Kid Spatula:
Inefficient Abs from this point have caused queues which have led to MRT callouts and could have resulted in accidents as beginners get cold and make mistakes. The descent won't have changed much since the 50's I've been told. If a team lack the ability to do this descent reasonably efficiency whatever method used they should scramble up and round. On another post above what moron has been scratching arrows on the rock? Is it the same one who scratched FPR on the wrong line one wonders?

In reply to mmmhumous:

Direct up the ridge is an easy grade 1 scramble for a short distance then a walk. CA is great but makes for a very long day for some teams... if you have lots of time go for it..there are some lovely 10m climbs on the way that show you what the volcanic pockets on the slabs looked like before they got trashed.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


It's not called 'Bumbly Hill' for nothing!

In reply to Kid Spatula:


In all honesty, if you need to abseil down the decent path of the Idwall Slabs, you really shouldn't be there in the first place.

What next, a Stanna Stairlift?

In reply to Offwidth:

It certainly wasn't this More-On

In reply to Offwidth:


And who scratched PMP at the start of Borchgrevink. All this engraving was old when I started climbing in the early 90s - I expect it was done in the fifties...

In reply to Goucho:

I can't see any problem with using the equipment you have to hand to make the decent easier, would you prefer people to just go with it and potentially hurt themselves just because someone some moaning gits on the internet said they should? using your logic we should all be soloing everything on the slabs as it's all so easy.

If done correctly it only takes a second to set up a quick abseil so to say that delays at this point result in MRT callouts is taking the piss a bit.

I'm not alone in abbing down this bit as after I'd done so on one occasion a couple of other climbers gratefully accepted my offer of using my rope that was already in place.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Well, by the same token there's no reason not to pitch Tryfan's North Ridge. It just takes a bit longer.

jcm

In reply to gethin_allen:

Is setting up an abseil actually easier than down climbing 10 metres of grade 2 scrambling ground? not for me anyway and not IMO any safer (for me).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


That's ridiculous, tryfan is barely a grade 1 scramble, is far longer and 99.99% of people wouldn't be carrying a rope.

In reply to gethin_allen:

>That's ridiculous,

Yes, isn't it?

jcm

In reply to gethin_allen:

Been there when it happened. Ditto for Milestone. The people who wre waiting get bloody cold on November eatly evenings. MRT were arguably too nice. Sometimes trying to be safe without thinking can create danger. If the people had beeen walked up and off in both cases the incidents would hve been avoided and everyone would havevstayed warm.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Only you could get elitist about how someone descends from a Vdiff. If someone climbs onto your roof with a ladder do you insist he uses the drainpipe to get down?

The descent up and to the left of the slabs looks wrong for someone new to the crag (especially if there is no one ahead of them doing it). A guide came past and mentioned that he'd be using the abseil had he been taking clients.

In reply to Offwidth:

Idwal slabs? Fair enough, but surely that probably has more to do with the competence of the people involved? If there was a queue forming surely you would use some of the same ropes and get down pretty quickly? Although if you are going home after you might aswell walk over the top and off (but most people leave their gear at the bottom...). How long of a walk is it?

In reply to FreshSlate:

How competant do you need to be? I didnt see it as incompetance, more like bad decision making, lack of practice and poor planning for some others stuck in the queue behind and sometimes a little bad luck (on the Milestone case, some lost walkers turned up at the top of the crag as dusk was falling). On a good early November day a last route seems tempting and a lot of people can be planning to make use of that last light. If more people planned for the slightly longer descent option this wouldnt happen as often and overall people would get off quicker.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Well I might be a moaning old git on the internet, but on my first trip to the mountains, decending after doing Hope as my first ever mountain rock climb with the school, at 12 years of age, wearing a pair of 'Tuff' workmens boots and an old denim jacket, soaked to the skin in pouring rain, it was still no more difficult than getting out of the bath.

And 30 years later, I'd never heard of anyone abbing down the decent path, so what does that say?

In reply to FreshSlate:

I tend to agree with Mr Wolfo here. Just because you personally find a section of climbing/scrambling easy I don't think that's a reason for objecting if you have to wait a bit while someone else who's finding it harder takes precautions that you wouldn't bother with, especially if there's an alternative option available.

Yes, I might object if it was a long Alpine route that the party ahead were not really competent to have embarked on, but we're talking here about a Diff downclimb, in quite an exposed position, which is the normal descent from a classic Diff upclimb (Ordinary Route).

I've been there many times myself, over nearly 50 years, and never needed a rope for myself, but I've usually had a few grades in hand. I have used a rope to safeguard others I've been with, for example at the end of their first or second multi-pitch outing, and would do so again.

In reply to Martin Hore:

its not anything like as hard as diff!

What a strange thread. I haven't read all responses so apologies if I am repeating what probably 50% of others have said (the other 50% taking the contrary view of course).

I climbed Hope and did the scramble down (un-roped) as my very first ever climb on a wet and cold winter's day (not that you'd catch me doing that nowadays mind...). I can't recall being unduly terrified although I do recall the scramble off being more scary than seconding with a rope above me, naturally. It isn't a nothing but it's not really very hard and it's part of learning about climbing/mountaineering. I've taken lots of novices there and I genuinely can't recall any problems with the descent.

I have always known that some people abseil off at the most awkward section (this isn't something particularly new) but, to be honest, I would far prefer to down climb something so straightforward than to trust an abseil off some rather dodgy looking spikes (one ripped out some time ago iirc). I would be happy to lower someone off if they couldn't cope safely but I've never felt the need to do that or ab.

I also recall there was that fabulous MRT call out a couple of years ago when a team got benighted on the descent (after the hard section, on the actual path, with a torch even). One of them even posted on here about it. In hindsight, I have some sympathy, but only a little

Anyway, I think that learning to cope on that sort of terrain, both route finding and scrambling, is an important part of the learning process and I'd encourage someone to have a go at that rather than think it's better to "escape" upwards (which is what the OP seemed to be about, even if not for the OP but perhaps one of the party).

In reply to Skyfall:

Good post.

Maybe those people who can't cope with this (barely Moderate) decent without resorting to either being lowered off, or abseiling, might be better coming to terms with the fact that they possibly aren't suited to climbing!

In reply to Goucho:

Let's face it Gouch, beginners have NO PLACE on the Idwall Slabs. They should be reserved for us experts.

In reply to Goucho:

Well, I think I ought to come back on this one. Looking at the profiles Stevo, Goucho, Skyfall and myself all climb in the E grades, in one case the higher E grades, so we may not be best equipped to judge the difference between a Mod and a Diff, certainly not how these grades will seem to a beginner who has just found one of the slab routes challenging on a rope. And let's not forget that we're talking about a downclimb which most people will find harder than the same climb in the upwards direction.

Let's suppose it is a Moderate. That's 1 grade below the Ordinary Route route, two grades below Hope. I don't do much seconding of harder routes these days but I'd expect make a reasonable fist of following E3 - I've done so in the past - and probably enjoy it. But I certainly wouldn't then expect to downclimb an E2 or E1 unroped on the descent route. But that's what we seem to be expecting beginners who've just followed Hope or Ordinary route to do, and suggesting that they're not cut out for climbing if they prefer a rope in this situation seems rather elitist.

Yes, learning to cope unroped is an important part of their learning experience when they're ready for it, and some beginners will be ready for it on their first outing, but not all I'd suggest. Those that prefer the security of a rope at this spot on their first acquaintance may not go on to be E grade climbers (though I don't think that follows automatically) but that doesn't mean they're "not cut out for climbing".

In reply to mmmhumous:

MRT to double bolt and chain the f*cker. It's all that sports climbers need.

In reply to Offwidth:


You can also abseil over the left hand side (facing out), away from the gulley. There is a free hanging section and you would need to leave tat as the spike is some distance from the edge. I have lowered my the 10yr old daughter over this when it was dark and raining one day.

If I am climbing with the children I often belay them down the top few feet of the scramble down, as a fall there would be nasty. I then down climb myself.

In reply to jon:


Or at least people who can climb out of a bath without a top rop

In reply to Martin Hore:


I was a beginner when I first went there, and so were most other folk at the time, but nobody would have considered using a rope on the decent path.

Maybe it's just another example of the nanny state of mind these days.

In reply to mmmhumous:

I noticed earlier this year when I was doing a link-up of routes on the Slabs all the way to the Glyders, that the various sheep and goats encountered en-route didn't appear to have any problems escaping from the cliffs. They didn't resort to abseiling either, but I don't know what grade they can manage!

Wow should have bought some popcorn!

Just to clarify the OP . I was after a suitable route to extend the climbing (as opposed to avoiding the descent route because it was scary).

We were going to be in a three, so I wanted a vague idea of which way to head so we didn't waste too much time if we got a bit lost. Our third wheel has dropped out, so doesn't particularly matter now if we have to do a bit of route finding towards the top. Central Arete looks fun, so if it's really lashing it down we might wander over that way.

Thanks for the heads up Offwidth about the Arete being bold at VD, should be fine though, I'm just looking at lower grades as it's a bit damp out.

WRT the descent route bun fight... I reckon it's a grade 2 scramble or mod/diff. If you apply the 'Slabs' grading system applied to the routes on the lower slabs. Severe maybe? (It's definitely harder than ordinary route). In seriousness though I'm not surprised people abseil it as it's very polished, has lots of spiky bits below you and seems a tad exposed. BUT if just can't down climb, direct belay yourselves or abseil it in an efficient manner you shouldn't really be up there. Then again you shouldn't really do Crib Goch in January if you have to ask passers by "when should I put my coat on" or "which way is Snowdon".

For the benefit of those suffering from early onset dementia... It's your nurse who wipes your arse for you, not the MRT and the guys at Ogwyn are going to report you if you don't stop ringing them up about your bum!

In reply to mmmhumous:

Yes, it's a grade 2 scramble, in that it forms part of the G2 route "Direct Approach to Seniors Ridge" from Scrambles in Snowdonia.

In reply to Martin Hore:
That's a totally fallacious argument. It assumes that Mod to E3 is a straight line progression and so presumably to E9 or whatever.

In reply to Offwidth:


Is this not all competence? This decision making, practice and planning? Just as much as soloing an easy down climb? To be honest I'd be happier with the competence of someone with good decision making, who was well practiced and planned proficiently over someone who was happy soloing a easy downclimb. Had people been well practiced as such then an quick abseil would have posed no problem. The abseil is not in the way of anyone wanting to climb down. Not sure what the problem is?

Btw, I am thinking of this descent:

http://nickliveseyssnowdonia.webs.com/threedaysofbliss.htm

Below is a caption and the text that follows:

In reply to FreshSlate:

How the hell did you find that? It's ancient and I didn't know it still existed!

In reply to jcw:


Rather hoped someone would say that. Could be the start of a totally new topic. Yes I did make that assumption, and yes, it's probably fallacious, but the more interesting question is why is it not linear, and how would you measure it anyway.

For now though, suffice it to say that I could probably make a reasonable fist of seconding E3 (I've led E2 this year) but I wouldn't normally downclimb VS unroped. E3 - VS = 4. I don't think the system is so non-linear that E3 - VS < Diff - Mod. Perhaps I'm a bit on the cautious side when it comes to soloing, but I do think some posters here are expecting things of beginners that they wouldn't do themselves at the grades they normally climb.

In reply to Martin Hore:

That's ridiculous. There's a fundamental level of movement ability below which people should be going on specialised courses for the disabled rather than attempting rock climbing o their own account. If you can't reliably make your way down a flight of stairs, mountaineering is not for you.

jcm

In reply to Martin Hore:

As already mentioned the hardest bit of the descent is a 10 metre down climb that looks slightly intimidating but is no harder than grade 2 scramble (and quite an easy one at that). I've done it this year. Mod is harder than a typical grade 3 scramble IMO.

Anyway I was never saying that for EVERYONE it would be easier to down climb this section than abseil, but for most people able to lead routes on the slabs I think it would be. Grade 2 scrambles have very easy climbing and big holds (especially on fairly steep ground for the grade like this is).

I've done far worse down climbs at stanage than this.

In reply to Goucho:

Sorry Goucho, but I'd say if you now lead E6 you were unlikely to have been an average beginner at the time. I'll happily retract, of course, if you say that you found seconding Hope (or whatever Diff or VDiff you did that day) a real top-end challenge for you.

In reply to jon:

Ha, ha, I have acquired a new rope (considering a comeback) but it all sounds terribly serious these days! It brought me back to my first climbing experiences on the Slabs with Eric Byne and Harold Drasdo, c.1964. I recall racing up the slabs and back down again with Eric, then being challenged for a little adventure, we ran around to the Gribbin Facet, climbed whatever, then up to Glyder Fach for our packed lunch!Eric then raced me back to Ogwyn to get the bus back to The Towers - I was hooked! See the link for his little adventure on the Milestone. http://www.themam.co.uk/images/journals/1953/rope.pdf

In reply to Martin Hore:

The line that people normally abseil down is not quite the line of the scramble. Perhaps this is why some people think the descent is harder than it actually is? If you ab off on your first visit (perhaps because you see others abbing off) then you'd consider it too hard to scramble down and so ab in future as well.

The Milestone descent is similar (though the scramble there is harder). People see the ab tat and use it. Which allows us to pass them by scrambling down instead

In reply to mmmhumous:

Hmmm, quite a lot of heated discussion here. The first time I used this descent, I was knackered and really not very good at multi-pitch climbing. We didn't know the route off the top of the slabs, we kept finding dead ends, it was getting late and we were rather stressed. If you don't know that the downclimb is on big jugs it looks a bit intimidating for a first timer and there is an obviously well used rock bollard that can be used to quickly set up an abseil. We opted to abseil, despite an old timer appearing and saying 'look lads, there's big jugs' as he slinked downwards. I don't recall that the place where we put the rope impeded anyone else from downclimbing. The last thing on my mind was what the ethics police would think.

On my second visit I thought I'd try the downclimb, and found it surprisingly easy. So there you go, there are options.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I wonder if this is part of the problem? I've taken beginners down from the Slabs countless times and have, on occasion, provided a toprope for the particularly nervous but have never abseiled. It's an awkward section but not as bad as looks with suitable encouragement. But I was taking responsible, if inexperienced, adults not paying clients.

How do people get down from the Mot, or down to bottom of middle part of Chair Ladder, or Sennen, or St Govan's, all of which are considerably harder than the Idwal descent and all of which we used to tackle routinely with fairly inexperienced people?

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Well, I can tell you how guides get down from the Grochan (a straightforward walk). They simply install a massive chain at the top, and when they arrive there they throw their ropes down on to anyone who may be leading pitch three of Phantom Rib and abseil down on top of them. This enhances the customer experience no end, though it's not so good for the rest of us.

jcm

In reply to mmmhumous:

To be fair, I've just glanced at this.

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php

Compared to the parade of incompetence on display there, the ability to manage a successful multi-day descent of this particular path with portaledges appears on a par with some of the finest mountaineering achievements seen in these islands. Perhaps I should retract my criticism.

How *do* people manage to "fall off" the path round Cwm Idwal, for example, let alone sustain injuries so severe that they need other people instead of their companions to carry them out.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
A last reality comes into play! Low grade climbers can find scrambling descents hard... shock news! Rescues have happened in such circumstances and even on paths!!

In reply to some others:

Competance is a rising scale of skills: it's possible to be competant but slow and/or make less than ideal decisions (such would only be incompetance to UKC forum self appointed 'heros'). The descents that are harder on Stanage won't be downclimbed solo by most Diff leaders either. I think the Idwall descent is on a par if not slightly harder ('adjectivally') than the Milestone descent.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


A lot of people have said that it's harder/scarier than the climbing. Climbing down is often tougher than going up. It does looks intimidating, and it is much easier than it looks. I wouldn't want to do it wet, but neither would I want to climb from the prow at wilton in the wet and I have a friend who currently has a torn shoulder ligament after taking a tumble descending from a route at stanage in the *very* wet. It's all well and good knowing all the beta and that the descent is jugs but for those who haven't been before I don't blame them for taking the abseil or belaying a nervous friend down.


This is fair enough. I think most people could learn the downclimb, as you say it's not hard, but it is steep and polished. It looks pretty hairy for someone who hasn't done it before, maybe they need a nudge or maybe we can cut them a little slack. To be fair for a lot idwal slabs is just for a relaxed sunny day's soloing anyway, but if those who have dragged a rope up, wish to use this again I'm not going to criticise.

The picture on Nick Livesy's blog looks horrendous for a diff/Vdiff leader to downclimb, and the common description "scarier that the climbing" makes me pretty sympathetic.


Me too.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I've also done far worse down climbs including some horrible ones in the Alps, and yet I still find the Idwal downclimb a little bit unsettling every time I've done it.

Some people do, some don't. Some people are simply moaning for the sake of it as there are no topics about bolts for them to cry about.

In reply to Offwidth:

Steve, you can't even *spell* incompetence!

jcm

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Interesting. A few people on this thread have belayed nervous friends down the intimidating part, and as you said you were there to provide encouragement and a realistic idea of how hard it actually is (the main problem, it looks worse than it is).

However, it seems to be a different situation if both climbers are unfamiliar with the descent, it may appear quicker and easier for them to abseil, as the 2nd climber may not be confident downclimbing it unroped.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

or even off the cubic block at brimham, that has given me the heebie jeebies before now.

In reply to FreshSlate:

>The picture on Nick Livesy's blog looks horrendous for a diff/Vdiff leader to downclimb

It looks like the sort of stuff you'd encounter on many a Munro to me.

jcm

In reply to FreshSlate:

"A lot of people have said that it's harder/scarier than the climbing."

It's not harder that is just nonsense, perhaps harder mentally than being dragged up a Diff on top rope but that's another matter. The easiest route on the slabs is a Diff - that's approx 3 to 4 grades harder than the down climb.

If people want to down climb fine I have no issue with that, but I think if you are up to leading 'The Ordinary Route' you'll be able to down climb the grade 2 scramble descent it just takes the courage to step down and start it, once you've done that you realise how easy it is.

"I don't blame them for taking the abseil or belaying a nervous friend down."

Like I said neither do I. Actually I think one of my posts which said there is no need to ab, was a touch over stated / abrupt, perhaps more like for most people in dry conditions there is no need to ab. Anyway......

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I suspect that most of those who feel a need to abseil the Idwal descent is that they've learned to climb indoors and have never been near a Munro.

Despite always having been a crap climber, I came to it from a hill-walking background, which is perhaps why I find these descents trivial.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
For some reason my supposedly high powered academic brain always had a blind spot in word recognition and structure... spelling was my least good skill from an early age and it took me 3 goes to get my O level French B that I needed for my University entry of choice. My eyesight right now is such that unless I wear glasses when typing on a tablet I sometimes can't even notice errors that I would normally change. So I apologise if my writing offends your sensibilities, as I guess I could try harder at times, but I also have a life outside of my posts here. I must admit to being happier with my weakness in this area than having a rudeness problem that would risk me being regarded as a 'grammar nazi'. The irony is, it has made me a better proof reader than most (when I do focus) and a strong benefit is, as an academic, having empathy for those who struggle in most anything (including scrambling descents).

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I don't doubt that these people have the technical downclimbing skills to do it. The occasion that you belayed a person down, had you 'dragged' them up? As we both agree technically they should piss the descent so why did you rope up? What if the person who belays the first person down is also nervous? You assume a gulf in skill.


Agreed. The thing is, you have to commit to something that looks hard, especially for a descent off a diff.



I think we're actually pretty close on this one. There is no need just depends if you know the descent, are confident it is not too difficult. I have soloed many grades above a vdiff, but I can easily imagine being faced with one and abbing down instead. Even though people who have soloed up and down it many times, potentially worse climbers, might not understand.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I'd say seconding the crux of Ordinary Route (which itself is an exposed scramble for 90% of the way) onsight might for some be 3-4 grades easier in an adjectival sense than soloing down the descent for the first time. These are often the people the ab is 'needed' for (but who unless climbing with a very efficicent leader would on a busy day be better going round).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> It looks like the sort of stuff you'd encounter on many a Munro to me.

> jcm

Damn I forgot my munro completion certificate in Scotland last time I went to potter up a diff path in ogwen valley .

In reply to FreshSlate:

"The occasion that you belayed a person down etc etc etc"
You're confusing me with someone else I didn't

In reply to Offwidth:


Yeah I can see that

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sorry my mistake.

In reply to Offwidth:

Nice way off putting it. It's a few grades harder for the onsight im sure .

In reply to Martin Hore:

Yeah, I agree start it. It wil be interesting to see why we don't have Just Mod, Easy Mod, Mod, Hard Mod, easy Diff etc

In reply to r0x0r.wolf


You surely are not lured in by Nick's pictures are you? They are photoshopped up to the nth degree in order to scare, and attract in the adoring hoards of young female fans, whilst the prose backs it up by overegging the exposure and general difficulty.
(Sorry Nick couldn't help myself)

In reply to Martin Hore:

Thank you Martin, it's heartening to see someone who can climb E's offering a balanced and kind perspective on this thread!

It really doesn't matter how many people down climbed it, when they were only a child, in the rain, on their first ever climb, and thought it was dead easy does it? It's a personal choice to down climb or abseil, and based on perceived risk, not just difficulty.

If people post online asking for advice on most subjects, they are offered sympathetic advice and guidance by those with more skills/experience. A request for help with long division wouldn't prompt derision, and suggestions that maybe the poster should not be attempting maths if they think that's hard! Or anecdotes about how others could do this effortlessly at an early age....Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but is there really much pleasure in putting down those who are less confident?

In reply to veteye:

Yeah deffo tilted it to make it look steeper than it is!

In reply to cas54321:

Some of this may be the very prevalent black humour in climbing. My view is in between because a group slow with an abseil can cause a queue with similar groups who havent got a plan B and before you know it people are getting cold and risk of an accident starts to increase. Late on a busy day if you are likely to be slow always go up and round.

Due to a late start and my partner having a few head game issues, we only made it as far as the top of Lazarus before dark.

I though the grading on Lazarus was a bit weird: According to the book I had, the pitches were both S,4a, to me though the first pitch felt more like VDiff, but even on 2nd, pitch 2 felt like a bit of a sandbag. (HS/VS, 4b/4c ish if I had to guess). Someone else obviously thought so too, as they had abbed off the crux... So if anyone's after some crag swag, there’s a pink tricam on pitch two of Lazarus It may require a sledge hammer/will of steel to remove... my trusty nut-key/seagull basher combo wasn't up to the task.

I'm presuming the way off the terrace between Heather Wall and Continuation wall back to the scramble route is obvious in the light. In the dark, it wasn't, so after scrambling up somewhere to the left of the arete, we opted for to get back on track.

Someone further up mentioned the "arrows" We counted 4 or 5 on route to the decent yesterday:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmhumous/11224162884/in/pool-clubazclimbingcl...

As we'd still got our harnesses on by the time we got to the descent...and there were no queues, we opted to ab that too. Doing both 'steps' as a 'oner' is just shy of 30m and a pain in the arse to pull your rope though!

The ab line isn't the same as the descent...If you're looking upwards, The abseil line (assuming you ab of the big boulder at the top) is slightly to the right of the descent for the first step, and 4-5m to the right for the second, big step.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Logbook votes give P2 up to 4b. In approach shoes it felt near my lead limit which so far is 4c. Was grateful for solid gear.

Down climbed (in good light) though, traversing left from the top of Groove Above.

In reply to Andysomething:

Those logbook voters better stay away from yorkshire and moorland grit or even some of the more obscure starred routes in snowdonia. Safe 4a and not hard in the grade would be my view. Try Wall Climb, VD, on Milestone which would be VS 4c by the right start if you think Lazarus is 4b . About half the time I've led Lazarus has been in approach shoes or big boots and in climbing shoes I find it an eazy solo for its S grade.... no way can I do this happily on 4b slab stuff. Logbook votes are ruined by people over-grading the easier trade route low grade classics which is a real shame.

Having said all that if routes are wet or fingers are frozen even a diff can feel desperate at times.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes - I might be able to make a more objective assessment if I did it a few more times than just this once. The overall scale of the probably place had something to do with my impressions at the time.

In reply to Offwidth:

As I was rushing up and it was twilight by the time I seconded the 2nd pitch it may not be the most objective of assessments but the crux felt 4b/4c although I may have missed some of the holds/puddles (fingers and toes were definitely frozen).

If it was at Wilton though it'd be VDiff. Based on the 'Slabs grading', it just felt stiffer than any of the trinity below, which with the exception of the very polished first 10m of the left (Hope?) are all diff/Vdiff in my book.

P1 felt tenuous in the wet, (slippery slopers are great for mantling) but again if it was dry, S 4a seems too high. The rest of the gully looks fun though.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Never mind Wilton, where would it be 4b (under good conditions)? Even with modern grade drift I cant think of anywhere (outdoors), although I do know lots of soft touch routes. Another good grade marker in Snowdonia for popular slab is the Yelllow Slab on Pinnacle Rib which I'd say is at least a tech grade harder.

In reply to mmmhumous:



Blimey. I take back my statement that the arrow has been there for decades - some idiot's been busy quite recently.

re Lazarus - first time I led it I thought it was stiff for the grade, since then I've found it very easy. Perhaps first time I failed to find an obvious jug!

In reply to Toreador (and offwidth):


Indeed, judging by the number of arrows, they had a fair amount of time on there hands. (One of the larger steps had two "Up" arrows, just in case!

>re Lazarus - first time I led it I thought it was stiff for the grade, since then I've found it very easy. Perhaps first time I failed to find an obvious jug!

>Never mind Wilton, where would it be 4b (under good conditions)?

Must have missed a few good holds then.. shall have to try it in the warm/dry/light

In reply to Toreador:
All this feedback is making me even more keen to get up there again....