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Just in case people missed this on the Idwall slabs thread. Ugly and unnecessary markers have been scratched on the rock to indicate the way off the top of the slabs. I'd say it obviously needs highlighting for discussion at the local area meeting ( and maybe a national view) to make it clear such vandelism isnt appreciated in British climbing.
In reply to Offwidth: Haven't read the other thread but hasn't there been something like this there for many years? I certainly remember it from my first visit in 1985 and in the mist and rain, I was very glad of it too.
There's 1PR and 2PR on Tryfan too; I'd'be been grateful for them being more visible as the rain turned to snow the day afterwards.
T.
There's 1PR and 2PR on Tryfan too; I'd'be been grateful for them being more visible as the rain turned to snow the day afterwards.
T.
In reply to Offwidth:
Read OVMR callouts list and see how many are groups or people stuck at the top of Idwal and can't find the way down. I think a big flashing sign should be put up there just to save them having to keep rescuing lost climbers! That or a zip-line over the lake to the path junction at the other end...
Read OVMR callouts list and see how many are groups or people stuck at the top of Idwal and can't find the way down. I think a big flashing sign should be put up there just to save them having to keep rescuing lost climbers! That or a zip-line over the lake to the path junction at the other end...
In reply to alexcollins123:
I do read them. Having signs encourages people lacking the right skills to climb and navigate our mountain crags to take even more dumb risks. The guide book instructions these days are very clear on what to do. If you want way marks on your descents go to a country where this is tolerated.
I do read them. Having signs encourages people lacking the right skills to climb and navigate our mountain crags to take even more dumb risks. The guide book instructions these days are very clear on what to do. If you want way marks on your descents go to a country where this is tolerated.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
FPR is marked in the wrong place and the graffitti is newish and much more extensive than the old arrows. Look at the other thread..
FPR is marked in the wrong place and the graffitti is newish and much more extensive than the old arrows. Look at the other thread..
Post edited at 19:35
In reply to Offwidth:
Suggestions of flashing lights and zip wires are totally outrageous.The answer is staring us all in the face.Why not install a metal ladder down the steep part of the descent route?
I can't think why this hasn't been suggested already?
Suggestions of flashing lights and zip wires are totally outrageous.The answer is staring us all in the face.Why not install a metal ladder down the steep part of the descent route?
I can't think why this hasn't been suggested already?
In reply to Offwidth:
there seems to be an increasing number of arrows on the slabs descent
- others are NB (north buttress) & GA (grooved arête)
they're not essential, good descriptions (as recent guidebooks offer) & some sense are far more use!
there seems to be an increasing number of arrows on the slabs descent
- others are NB (north buttress) & GA (grooved arête)
they're not essential, good descriptions (as recent guidebooks offer) & some sense are far more use!
In reply to Offwidth:
I dont really get it, the way off is obvious, just needs a bit of mountain sense.
I dont really get it, the way off is obvious, just needs a bit of mountain sense.
In reply to Red Rover:
.... rather than mountain madness:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmhumous/11224162884/in/pool-clubazclimbingcl...
.... rather than mountain madness:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmhumous/11224162884/in/pool-clubazclimbingcl...
In reply to Offwidth:
Someone ought to write the word 'F*ck' above it, and maybe these numpty's might get the message.
Someone ought to write the word 'F*ck' above it, and maybe these numpty's might get the message.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Ever thought of taking up knitting instead?
> Haven't read the other thread but hasn't there been something like this there for many years? I certainly remember it from my first visit in 1985 and in the mist and rain, I was very glad of it too.
> There's 1PR and 2PR on Tryfan too; I'd'be been grateful for them being more visible as the rain turned to snow the day afterwards.
> T.
Ever thought of taking up knitting instead?
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Unless it's changed recently, both routes have 1PR scratched at the bottom.
> There's 1PR and 2PR on Tryfan too
Unless it's changed recently, both routes have 1PR scratched at the bottom.
In reply to Goucho: No, couldn't handle the excitement.
And the discomfort of both days was as naught compared to the trip back through a freezing downpour on the back of a bike...
T.
And the discomfort of both days was as naught compared to the trip back through a freezing downpour on the back of a bike...
T.
In reply to Red Rover:
If you know where you are going, then yes, it is obvious. If not, is really isn't. The last time I was on Idwall, I had forgotten how far you had to climb up from the top of the slabs to reach the descent and made a few false sorties to the left in order to find it.
As for people suggesting that people should not climb here if they are ill prepared, this completely misses the point since Idwall slabs are commonly suggested on here as a good place to start your mountain climbing career owing to the short walk in and easy grades. Similarly, ill equipped (as in mountain knowledge) climbers are about as likely to identify themselves as bad drivers. I don't condone the markings but I do see that they are useful to many people who climb the slabs and if they reduce Mountain Rescue call-outs, that surely is a good thing?
> I dont really get it, the way off is obvious, just needs a bit of mountain sense.
If you know where you are going, then yes, it is obvious. If not, is really isn't. The last time I was on Idwall, I had forgotten how far you had to climb up from the top of the slabs to reach the descent and made a few false sorties to the left in order to find it.
As for people suggesting that people should not climb here if they are ill prepared, this completely misses the point since Idwall slabs are commonly suggested on here as a good place to start your mountain climbing career owing to the short walk in and easy grades. Similarly, ill equipped (as in mountain knowledge) climbers are about as likely to identify themselves as bad drivers. I don't condone the markings but I do see that they are useful to many people who climb the slabs and if they reduce Mountain Rescue call-outs, that surely is a good thing?
In reply to ByEek:
It was my first multipitch route when I was 17 and we found the way off after a bit of scouting round as well. But if people get a bit lost there then its not the end of the world so long as they dont fall off anything. Better to learn how to find routes off (with help from guidebook) in an un-remote place like idwal, which you wouldnt be able to do with markers. Anyway thats just my 2p on a debate that could go on forever.
It was my first multipitch route when I was 17 and we found the way off after a bit of scouting round as well. But if people get a bit lost there then its not the end of the world so long as they dont fall off anything. Better to learn how to find routes off (with help from guidebook) in an un-remote place like idwal, which you wouldnt be able to do with markers. Anyway thats just my 2p on a debate that could go on forever.
In reply to ByEek:
that surely is a good thing?
No thats a backwards way of thinking. An increase in personal competence is the real way to decrease Mountain Rescue call-outs.
that surely is a good thing?
No thats a backwards way of thinking. An increase in personal competence is the real way to decrease Mountain Rescue call-outs.
In reply to ByEek:
I didnt even use the guidebook descent the first time, just kept on going up until I could walk easily down into that gully behind the slabs and get down to the path. People should have the chance to learn by scouting round on an easy and very 'non mountain' mountain crag
I didnt even use the guidebook descent the first time, just kept on going up until I could walk easily down into that gully behind the slabs and get down to the path. People should have the chance to learn by scouting round on an easy and very 'non mountain' mountain crag
In reply to Red Rover:
Totally agree. We've all got to learn (well, start learning!) some time. Sanitising crag X does people no favours if they go on to the much more 'sporting' crag Y.
Mick
> But if people get a bit lost there then its not the end of the world so long as they dont fall off anything.
Totally agree. We've all got to learn (well, start learning!) some time. Sanitising crag X does people no favours if they go on to the much more 'sporting' crag Y.
Mick
In reply to Offwidth:
I scored rather low on the pedantry test, so can I make up for it here by pointing out that Idwal only has one l in it?
I scored rather low on the pedantry test, so can I make up for it here by pointing out that Idwal only has one l in it?
In reply to ByEek:
Well, why stop at a few scratches in the rock. let's put in a flashing neon sign, a V.f hand-rail and bolted belay for the decent down suicide wall so there's absolutely no chance of anyone falling/getting lost.
LOL, how silly of me to suggest a neon sign - how ever would it be powered?! I meant a huge metal fingerpost written in Welsh, English, French and German, just to be sure!
> I don't condone the markings but I do see that they are useful to many people who climb the slabs and if they reduce Mountain Rescue call-outs, that surely is a good thing?
Well, why stop at a few scratches in the rock. let's put in a flashing neon sign, a V.f hand-rail and bolted belay for the decent down suicide wall so there's absolutely no chance of anyone falling/getting lost.
LOL, how silly of me to suggest a neon sign - how ever would it be powered?! I meant a huge metal fingerpost written in Welsh, English, French and German, just to be sure!
In reply to Trangia:
But the difficulty is in people actually managing to finding the place where you would put your ladder.
> Suggestions of flashing lights and zip wires are totally outrageous.The answer is staring us all in the face.Why not install a metal ladder down the steep part of the descent route?
> I can't think why this hasn't been suggested already?
But the difficulty is in people actually managing to finding the place where you would put your ladder.
In reply to Offwidth:
It's probably because modern climbers can't read words in guidebooks, they only seem to have the ability to look at topos and the grade/stars for a route.
It's probably because modern climbers can't read words in guidebooks, they only seem to have the ability to look at topos and the grade/stars for a route.
In reply to Offwidth:
This is such a classic UKC thread. God knows no one is saying lets put waymarkers up everywhere but the odd arrow scratched on a rock does no one any harm. There are rock scratchings everywhere, most of them done well before climbing became as 'mainstream' as it is now. Doesn't Poor Mans Peuterey have PMP scratched at the bottom.
I have had an epic on Idwal which necessitated MR. This was indeed mostly my fault but that way off, particularly in the wet is very dodgy and frankly a few arrows here and there can only help.
This is such a classic UKC thread. God knows no one is saying lets put waymarkers up everywhere but the odd arrow scratched on a rock does no one any harm. There are rock scratchings everywhere, most of them done well before climbing became as 'mainstream' as it is now. Doesn't Poor Mans Peuterey have PMP scratched at the bottom.
I have had an epic on Idwal which necessitated MR. This was indeed mostly my fault but that way off, particularly in the wet is very dodgy and frankly a few arrows here and there can only help.
In reply to spidermonkey09:
Thousands every year find their way off perfectly OK in the wet. We are lucky that British mountains have largely been left unspoilt and that people can choose the level of adventure they want. So if you don't like scrambling descents choose a line with a walk-off, which would include the slabs with the scramble up to Cwn Cnefion, which might take a couple of extra minutes on a good day but stop the potential risk of an epic on a bad one.
Thousands every year find their way off perfectly OK in the wet. We are lucky that British mountains have largely been left unspoilt and that people can choose the level of adventure they want. So if you don't like scrambling descents choose a line with a walk-off, which would include the slabs with the scramble up to Cwn Cnefion, which might take a couple of extra minutes on a good day but stop the potential risk of an epic on a bad one.
In reply to spidermonkey09:
I've highlighted the relevant bit of your post. What do you mean by 'dodgy'? Dangerous? A wee bit tricky to work out?
And 'arrows' just don't relate to 'particularly in the wet'. If you cant work out how to get off the top of the slabs its not really the weather that is the crux issue it's your competence to find the route.
> I have had an epic on Idwal which necessitated MR. This was indeed MOSTLY MY FAULT but that way off, particularly in the wet is very dodgy and frankly a few arrows here and there can only help.
I've highlighted the relevant bit of your post. What do you mean by 'dodgy'? Dangerous? A wee bit tricky to work out?
And 'arrows' just don't relate to 'particularly in the wet'. If you cant work out how to get off the top of the slabs its not really the weather that is the crux issue it's your competence to find the route.
In reply to spidermonkey09:
Sorry. A second thought.
If your rescue was only 'mostly' your fault then who else / what else was 'at fault' as well?
> I have had an epic on Idwal which necessitated MR. This was indeed mostly my fault but that way off, particularly in the wet is very dodgy and frankly a few arrows here and there can only help.
Sorry. A second thought.
If your rescue was only 'mostly' your fault then who else / what else was 'at fault' as well?
In reply to Offwidth: in a few hundered years these will be considered rock art and ba a national treasure
In reply to spidermonkey09:
I admire your courage for admitting in public that you had an epic on Bumbly Hill requiring the MRT!
It's the climbing equivalent of admitting you suffer from premature ejaculation
To add an historical perspective, 1000's of people have been finding their way of the slabs for decades without requiring directions scratched into the rock!
> I have had an epic on Idwal which necessitated MR. This was indeed mostly my fault but that way off, particularly in the wet is very dodgy and frankly a few arrows here and there can only help.
I admire your courage for admitting in public that you had an epic on Bumbly Hill requiring the MRT!
It's the climbing equivalent of admitting you suffer from premature ejaculation
To add an historical perspective, 1000's of people have been finding their way of the slabs for decades without requiring directions scratched into the rock!
In reply to Offwidth:
While they saved me a good five minutes of route finding/convincing my partner we were going the right way to the descent gully, there's enough polish and rounded holds to follow without them (even in the dark). I think there's no real justification for them and certainly not the number of markers that have been scratched.
Given the British history, ethics...yada yada yada...insert you're favourite[mildly xenophobic primate and fromage relate quip] here.... and the fact you have to do a multi-pitch trad route to get to them, there's no need.
While they saved me a good five minutes of route finding/convincing my partner we were going the right way to the descent gully, there's enough polish and rounded holds to follow without them (even in the dark). I think there's no real justification for them and certainly not the number of markers that have been scratched.
Given the British history, ethics...yada yada yada...insert you're favourite[mildly xenophobic primate and fromage relate quip] here.... and the fact you have to do a multi-pitch trad route to get to them, there's no need.
In reply to Offwidth:
If anyone is having any difficulty in finding their way down I am available to hold their hand for a small fee
If anyone is having any difficulty in finding their way down I am available to hold their hand for a small fee
In reply to Offwidth:
Fair point- I'm not saying lets put them in everywhere, just that it seems a bit of an overreaction.
Andyathome- dodgy in the sense that for a slab which is always held up as a great beginner location, the scramble off in torrential rain absolutely is a bit dangerous, yeah.
Fair point- I'm not saying lets put them in everywhere, just that it seems a bit of an overreaction.
Andyathome- dodgy in the sense that for a slab which is always held up as a great beginner location, the scramble off in torrential rain absolutely is a bit dangerous, yeah.
In reply to Goucho:
Haha shit happens but yeah, it wasn't my finest hour!
Course they have. And I agree there is no need for the markers per se, but I also think the faux-outraged responses are mad. Save it for stuff that really matters!
Haha shit happens but yeah, it wasn't my finest hour!
Course they have. And I agree there is no need for the markers per se, but I also think the faux-outraged responses are mad. Save it for stuff that really matters!
In reply to spidermonkey09:
There is nothing faux in the slightest about my view (and 'outrage' is massively overstating my emotional response). I simply don't want everything in the hills scratched up to allow those with the lowest standard of navigation ability to be wrapped in cotton wool. I believe that if they need that much help they are an accident waiting to happen and shouldn't be there.
Idwall slabs is not the best beginner's area except in the sense of accompanying more experienced climbers to get a first multi-pitch experience.
There is nothing faux in the slightest about my view (and 'outrage' is massively overstating my emotional response). I simply don't want everything in the hills scratched up to allow those with the lowest standard of navigation ability to be wrapped in cotton wool. I believe that if they need that much help they are an accident waiting to happen and shouldn't be there.
Idwall slabs is not the best beginner's area except in the sense of accompanying more experienced climbers to get a first multi-pitch experience.
In reply to Offwidth:
Fair enough. I pretty much agree with what you've put there, I just don't think its a massively big deal. A few arrows on a few boulders at the top of Idwal slabs to indicate the way off that has a 'justified notoriety' (Ground Up guide), is not the first step towards everything in the hills getting scratched up!
I think we might be at the point though where we have to agree to disagree
Fair enough. I pretty much agree with what you've put there, I just don't think its a massively big deal. A few arrows on a few boulders at the top of Idwal slabs to indicate the way off that has a 'justified notoriety' (Ground Up guide), is not the first step towards everything in the hills getting scratched up!
I think we might be at the point though where we have to agree to disagree
In reply to spidermonkey09:
No, but it's still a fairly crass and unneccessary thing to do, and I think it is right to condemn the perps and send out a clear message that it is not a good way to treat our crags - you can tidy-up and hide a bolt-scar; these scratchings will be visible forever.
I still struggle to see what is so gnarly and hard-to-find about the exit ramps/slabs leading to the steep down-climb. The final descent is necky for a beginner and should probably be roped, but finding it? Really?
> A few arrows on a few boulders at the top of Idwal slabs to indicate the way off that has a 'justified notoriety', is not the first step towards everything in the hills getting scratched up!
No, but it's still a fairly crass and unneccessary thing to do, and I think it is right to condemn the perps and send out a clear message that it is not a good way to treat our crags - you can tidy-up and hide a bolt-scar; these scratchings will be visible forever.
I still struggle to see what is so gnarly and hard-to-find about the exit ramps/slabs leading to the steep down-climb. The final descent is necky for a beginner and should probably be roped, but finding it? Really?
In reply to Offwidth:
Never been to idwal, but couldnt the way off be Pointed out be marked by a small Cairn of small stones?
Never been to idwal, but couldnt the way off be Pointed out be marked by a small Cairn of small stones?
In reply to Choss:
It could be pointed out simply by reading the guidebook properly. When you reach the terrace above Hope, Faith, Charity, etc, follow it left until it becomes a sloping upwards ramp. Follow this until you come to an obvious descent. That's it..
It could be pointed out simply by reading the guidebook properly. When you reach the terrace above Hope, Faith, Charity, etc, follow it left until it becomes a sloping upwards ramp. Follow this until you come to an obvious descent. That's it..
In reply to spidermonkey09:
Yes, but it's in the wrong place. It's actually scratched at the start of the variation Borchgrevinck start whch has become the normal way to do it and I suspect that's because of the PMP scratches. Hardly anyone bothers to do the original start now, which is a shame, it's more exciting and harder (another reason it may not be done quite so much nowadays).
Fwiw, I find it hard to get too worked up about the scratches at Idwal but nt been for quite a few years so maybe they're a lot worse now. The (small) cairn idea is quite a good one (if it doesn't increase the risk of stonefall).
> Doesn't Poor Mans Peuterey have PMP scratched at the bottom.
Yes, but it's in the wrong place. It's actually scratched at the start of the variation Borchgrevinck start whch has become the normal way to do it and I suspect that's because of the PMP scratches. Hardly anyone bothers to do the original start now, which is a shame, it's more exciting and harder (another reason it may not be done quite so much nowadays).
Fwiw, I find it hard to get too worked up about the scratches at Idwal but nt been for quite a few years so maybe they're a lot worse now. The (small) cairn idea is quite a good one (if it doesn't increase the risk of stonefall).
In reply to Skyfall:
Haha genius at work. I haven't done it but wandered past it a few weeks back.
Yeah I only remember a few when I was there a year ago, obviously if its now riddled with them thats not great but its not a new thing.
Don't really know where the cairn could go to be honest, but that is a good idea.
Haha genius at work. I haven't done it but wandered past it a few weeks back.
Yeah I only remember a few when I was there a year ago, obviously if its now riddled with them thats not great but its not a new thing.
Don't really know where the cairn could go to be honest, but that is a good idea.
In reply to Jamie B:
well it Sounds Like many folk need some Kind of waymark, Especially if weather closes in.
So you can either be Progressive and use a small, non marking, non permanent wee Cairn and make it Common Knowledge, or stay as is and the rock scratchings keep Proliferating?
But like i said never been up there. Too Scared of any Lake that birds wont fly over. Thats witchery that is 7;^)
plus if i did go to Idwal id Probably do routes above slabs to Summit as well, down BristLy Ridge, and over tryfan to make a Nice day of it, so the slab descent wouldnt be an Issue.
well it Sounds Like many folk need some Kind of waymark, Especially if weather closes in.
So you can either be Progressive and use a small, non marking, non permanent wee Cairn and make it Common Knowledge, or stay as is and the rock scratchings keep Proliferating?
But like i said never been up there. Too Scared of any Lake that birds wont fly over. Thats witchery that is 7;^)
plus if i did go to Idwal id Probably do routes above slabs to Summit as well, down BristLy Ridge, and over tryfan to make a Nice day of it, so the slab descent wouldnt be an Issue.
Post edited at 13:11
In reply to Choss:
Seriously? WTF happened to self reliance?
> (In reply to Jamie B) well it Sounds Like many folk need some Kind of waymark, Especially if weather closes in.
>
>
Seriously? WTF happened to self reliance?
In reply to Doghouse:
It died a Long Time ago, the first Time someone left a thread, peg, or bolt in Situ.
> Seriously? WTF happened to self reliance?
It died a Long Time ago, the first Time someone left a thread, peg, or bolt in Situ.
In reply to Doghouse:
I would swap someones Life for a small Pile of small rocks that are not permanent and only Climbers Ever see. Seems cheap to me.
I would swap someones Life for a small Pile of small rocks that are not permanent and only Climbers Ever see. Seems cheap to me.
In reply to Choss:
No it didn't, but the rate it is being erroded is accelerating at a rapid rate by mummy's boys who are too scared to leave the car park without everything being handed to them on a plate
No it didn't, but the rate it is being erroded is accelerating at a rapid rate by mummy's boys who are too scared to leave the car park without everything being handed to them on a plate
In reply to Doghouse:
well Live with the rock scratchings then. You can come on Here and complain about them Every now and then, or Adopt a Simple no pain to anyone solution. Makes no odds to me either way.
well Live with the rock scratchings then. You can come on Here and complain about them Every now and then, or Adopt a Simple no pain to anyone solution. Makes no odds to me either way.
Post edited at 15:15
In reply to 3 Names:
I agree. And my thanks go to Offwidth to bring up the issue here.
After all the descent is more likely to be the crux of the day in any mountain-crag climbing, let alone for the easy-ish venue, like Idwal Slab.
If one can't descend, or can't get benighted either, by themselves, they should not be there in the first instance.
I am afraid a sign is just likely to give a false sense of security.
Suppose a sign is put, then some will eventually demand for ladders next, as the sign alone does not give them enough security, or even staircases with handrails, or why not electric-powered escalators - there will be no stop of escalation in principle.
I would rather prefer the natural crag to be left with the minimum human traces.
That is I consider the beauty of the British climbing scene I adore.
Masa
> No thats a backwards way of thinking. An increase in personal competence is the real way to decrease Mountain Rescue call-outs.
I agree. And my thanks go to Offwidth to bring up the issue here.
After all the descent is more likely to be the crux of the day in any mountain-crag climbing, let alone for the easy-ish venue, like Idwal Slab.
If one can't descend, or can't get benighted either, by themselves, they should not be there in the first instance.
I am afraid a sign is just likely to give a false sense of security.
Suppose a sign is put, then some will eventually demand for ladders next, as the sign alone does not give them enough security, or even staircases with handrails, or why not electric-powered escalators - there will be no stop of escalation in principle.
I would rather prefer the natural crag to be left with the minimum human traces.
That is I consider the beauty of the British climbing scene I adore.
Masa
In reply to Choss:
Why should I have to "live with the rock scratchings"? Why don't these muppets adopt you're "no pain to anyone solution"? Seems you're comfortable that they can cause pain to me and others on this thread but not that we should expect them not to dumb down the mountains to their level of imcompetence rather than rising to the challenge.
> (In reply to Doghouse) well Live with the rock scratchings then. You can come on Here and complain about them Every now and then, or Adopt a Simple no pain to anyone solution. Makes no odds to me either way.
Why should I have to "live with the rock scratchings"? Why don't these muppets adopt you're "no pain to anyone solution"? Seems you're comfortable that they can cause pain to me and others on this thread but not that we should expect them not to dumb down the mountains to their level of imcompetence rather than rising to the challenge.
In reply to Doghouse:
if you count that as pain in anyway, i cant help you.
Live with the rock scratchings, i honestly dont care.
if you count that as pain in anyway, i cant help you.
Live with the rock scratchings, i honestly dont care.
In reply to Doghouse:
What gets me is that by the time someone scratches the rock they've presumably worked out the best way off and don't actually need the handrail themselves. Somehow I can't see the scratching being done mid-epic, so they've been a considered (ahem) addition by persons thinking that they're acting in the wider interest. Ludicrous.
What gets me is that by the time someone scratches the rock they've presumably worked out the best way off and don't actually need the handrail themselves. Somehow I can't see the scratching being done mid-epic, so they've been a considered (ahem) addition by persons thinking that they're acting in the wider interest. Ludicrous.
In reply to Choss:
No. A cairn doesn't 'point'. So you would need a line of cairns - intervisible, obviously - across the top of the slabs. And, obviously a small cairn of small stones might not be visible in cloud/darkness. So probably a middled sized set of cairns made of middle sized stones about 10 mtrs apart?
And since one small pile of stones looks a bit like any other small pile of stones we would probably have to colour code them? And have little signs indicating that the cairn 'over there' is on the way 'up' and not on the way 'down'. With an explanation that the way 'up' was actually the way down.......
> Never been to idwal, but couldnt the way off be Pointed out be marked by a small Cairn of small stones?
No. A cairn doesn't 'point'. So you would need a line of cairns - intervisible, obviously - across the top of the slabs. And, obviously a small cairn of small stones might not be visible in cloud/darkness. So probably a middled sized set of cairns made of middle sized stones about 10 mtrs apart?
And since one small pile of stones looks a bit like any other small pile of stones we would probably have to colour code them? And have little signs indicating that the cairn 'over there' is on the way 'up' and not on the way 'down'. With an explanation that the way 'up' was actually the way down.......
In reply to Choss:
Cairns wouldn't work. However the descent is very polished and really obvious. There were a couple of scratches (which were really old), but these ones are massive overkill.
Cairns wouldn't work. However the descent is very polished and really obvious. There were a couple of scratches (which were really old), but these ones are massive overkill.
In reply to Choss:
Not sure if you're being deliberatly antagonistic or if you genuinely don't understand the issue but it's not a question of what type of directional aid there should be but that there shouldn't be any at all!
> (In reply to andyathome)
>
> fine with me. scratched Pointers on the rock it is then.
>
> fine with me. scratched Pointers on the rock it is then.
Not sure if you're being deliberatly antagonistic or if you genuinely don't understand the issue but it's not a question of what type of directional aid there should be but that there shouldn't be any at all!
In reply to Doghouse:
I don't think I have ever read the guidebook description for the descent in my 40 years of climbing at Idwal. Just follow the polish up and generally trending slightly leftwards. About the only mistake you can make is going too high, in which case the descent is easier, but longer from the Cwm.
I don't think I have ever read the guidebook description for the descent in my 40 years of climbing at Idwal. Just follow the polish up and generally trending slightly leftwards. About the only mistake you can make is going too high, in which case the descent is easier, but longer from the Cwm.
In reply to Choss:
It is a real issue - not just the graffiti itself, but the consequences of people losing the skills to be self reliant (& so MRT call outs, etc). I'm a bit confused as to why you're involved in this discussion - your first post said you hadn't been to Idwal, so why respond so readily (& stroppily) to the posts of others?
It is a real issue - not just the graffiti itself, but the consequences of people losing the skills to be self reliant (& so MRT call outs, etc). I'm a bit confused as to why you're involved in this discussion - your first post said you hadn't been to Idwal, so why respond so readily (& stroppily) to the posts of others?
In reply to timmyh:
Didnt realise Two things Obviously.
1. I had been stroppy, didnt Mean to.
2. We can only have Opinions only on things we had personally done.
Didnt realise Two things Obviously.
1. I had been stroppy, didnt Mean to.
2. We can only have Opinions only on things we had personally done.
In reply to Choss:
errr - point 2 is ridiculous & you know that!
another antagonistic posting, maybe???
errr - point 2 is ridiculous & you know that!
another antagonistic posting, maybe???
In reply to Offwidth:
We had a mini-epic coming off the Idwal Slabs a few years back. We were in full numpty mode that day. The weather was iffy, so we wandered around in Llanberis shopping, waiting for it to clear up. It didn't, so late in the afternoon we decided 'damn those torpedoes' and we would do a route in the rain in full wet weather gear with big boots on.
We started our climb at about 4pm, and the route went well but got a bit trickier higher up. We may have been off-route a bit (guidebook descriptions and pictures were not as good as these days - obviously it couldn't have been our fault)! For some reason we were climbing in series in a connected group of 4 (I think most of the group were not very confident at leading in the pouring rain in big boots) and we ended up with rope spaghetti to untangle at the belays on more than one occasion. Despite our multiple attempts at ineptitude, we made it to the top of the route before it was fully dark, and scrambled upwards in search of the way down.
We knew the descent gulley was located upwards and off to the left. My headtorch was usefully tucked away in the car at the bottom. After ascending for a while we luckily found an arrow scratched on the rock which pointed left then downwards. We traversed left for a while then descended a small gulley in the dark, which we figured was on the descent route. The down-climbing felt quite intimidating but got easier. All went well until we found ourselves back on the same ledge that we had topped out on at the end of the climb!
We decided it was a bit late to be trying to find our way off the route in pitch darkness, and made the decision to stay on the ledge for the night. We spent the night huddling to keep warm. Luckily the rain had stopped. I was trying not to doze off so my contact lenses would not stick to my eyes - I didn't have a spare pair and would not have been able to see anything in the morning if I fell asleep. Also the ledge was sloped, so dozing off could have been a bit precarious! I remember being really tired and lapsing into waking dreams a couple of times.
Anyway, all ended well and finding our way off was much easier the next morning with the benefit of daylight.
The day would have been utterly unmemorable if there had been clear arrows or cairns showing us the way down!
We had a mini-epic coming off the Idwal Slabs a few years back. We were in full numpty mode that day. The weather was iffy, so we wandered around in Llanberis shopping, waiting for it to clear up. It didn't, so late in the afternoon we decided 'damn those torpedoes' and we would do a route in the rain in full wet weather gear with big boots on.
We started our climb at about 4pm, and the route went well but got a bit trickier higher up. We may have been off-route a bit (guidebook descriptions and pictures were not as good as these days - obviously it couldn't have been our fault)! For some reason we were climbing in series in a connected group of 4 (I think most of the group were not very confident at leading in the pouring rain in big boots) and we ended up with rope spaghetti to untangle at the belays on more than one occasion. Despite our multiple attempts at ineptitude, we made it to the top of the route before it was fully dark, and scrambled upwards in search of the way down.
We knew the descent gulley was located upwards and off to the left. My headtorch was usefully tucked away in the car at the bottom. After ascending for a while we luckily found an arrow scratched on the rock which pointed left then downwards. We traversed left for a while then descended a small gulley in the dark, which we figured was on the descent route. The down-climbing felt quite intimidating but got easier. All went well until we found ourselves back on the same ledge that we had topped out on at the end of the climb!
We decided it was a bit late to be trying to find our way off the route in pitch darkness, and made the decision to stay on the ledge for the night. We spent the night huddling to keep warm. Luckily the rain had stopped. I was trying not to doze off so my contact lenses would not stick to my eyes - I didn't have a spare pair and would not have been able to see anything in the morning if I fell asleep. Also the ledge was sloped, so dozing off could have been a bit precarious! I remember being really tired and lapsing into waking dreams a couple of times.
Anyway, all ended well and finding our way off was much easier the next morning with the benefit of daylight.
The day would have been utterly unmemorable if there had been clear arrows or cairns showing us the way down!
In reply to Chris Sansum:
You are in good company Chris - read Sasha Digiulian's blog about sitting out a storm after repeating Bellavista.
The thing I like best about Idwal Slabs is that it's just the right angle when it's pouring it down for your waterproofs to act like a drainage pipe.
You are in good company Chris - read Sasha Digiulian's blog about sitting out a storm after repeating Bellavista.
The thing I like best about Idwal Slabs is that it's just the right angle when it's pouring it down for your waterproofs to act like a drainage pipe.
In reply to 3 Names:
I agree, but your second statement simply is not going to happen. Just as there will always be bad drivers, there will always be ill-prepared climbers.
> No thats a backwards way of thinking. An increase in personal competence is the real way to decrease Mountain Rescue call-outs.
I agree, but your second statement simply is not going to happen. Just as there will always be bad drivers, there will always be ill-prepared climbers.
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