UKC

Deliberately loaded question.

I'm sure anecdotally there's people who've regretted it, maybe when dropping an axe, or maybe that fella who just let go on Aladdin's Mirror Direct regretted it momentarily, but has anyone actually switched and found - for whatever reason - that things actually became more difficult/scary/uncomfortable/necky etc?


I've read plenty of threads advocating the many benefits of leashless and don't doubt any of them. I'm a crap winter climber, only really led stuff up to about grade 3, but would like to improve and maybe leashless would help, a bit? Problem is, I'm also a massive wuss and the idea of ditching my nice friendly life-affirming leashes leaves me with a bit of a knot in my stomach just thinking about it.

I'll be looking at leading some more grade IIIs this winter and maybe some grade IVs and probably seconding some Vs.

Why shouldn't I switch?

In reply to Tom Last:
On ice, I can definitely climb harder when I have my wrist loops on. All the good leads I've done (good for me, very average in the global scheme of things) I've done with wrist loops. Oddly though, I now climb probably 80-90% leashless - seconding, moderate ice, mixed - for all of those the advantages of leashless outweigh my inability to hang on as long.

I've been mixed climbing today, and am testing some leashless tools for UKC currently. Forearms still totally pumped! But then again you can't traverse under a roof using one stein-pull placement for both hands if you have wrist loops. https://twitter.com/TobyinHelsinki/status/412340864921251841/photo/1

On III ice you should be able to keep your weight on your feet mostly, so I would have thought leashless would be the way to go, but of course on mountain routes use umbilicals to your harness so you can't fully drop a tool. This all depends on you having decent modern tools with a proper handle though.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks Toby, good points.

Maybe I should get something I can attach my clipper brackets to, in case at some point I decide to get on something steep.

I think I'm inclined to switch over sooner rather than later anyway, since I'm considering it at all.

I guess the dearth of responses to my original question speaks volumes in itself.

Cheers.

In reply to TobyA:

Toby, I see your using the dmm switch in that picture, how did you find them to use ? What grades where you climbing ? How would you compare them to other technical axes you may have used ? And how did you manage go get to test a pair, I've been after buying a pair for months now.

In reply to Tom Last:

Can only offer my own experience of leashless here. When I was taught ice climbing at an indoor ice wall. I used leashes and leashless. When we started gear placement, the leashes just got in the way. I've climbed leashless ever since. I climb with nomics, and the old quarks. Both have little rope loops at the base of the handles. If it gets too much or scary. I just clip
a draw into these. Or on the nomics into the hole drilled for such a purpose. I then weight the axe have a word with myself, relax and carry on.

In reply to Tom Last:

I switched to leash less and have zero regrets.

For me the versatility it offers is priceless. Leashes now would just feel clumsy and a hindrance.

In reply to Tom Last:

I have never and will never climb with leashes, or even 'springer leashes' for that matter.

The faff of having you wrist constrained whilst on a route and attempting to place/remove gear is just too much for me. and the springy leashes just scare the living crap out of me. Although having discovered the whole being impaled in the face scenario can be 'sort' of mitigated by using loops of cord which can break in the event of a fall (still potentially leaving one axe however far up the route, mind. or even sending it flying further), I'll still pass.

I want free hands, that allow me place and remove gear as quickly as possible, if I find an axe placement is tenuous for the one I'm not holding onto, I teeth it or hold it with my thumb.

It is a completely personal choice, do whatever you are comfortable with.

In reply to GrendeI:


Click on your profile to see if there are pics showing what tools you use, and then saw on a previous entry for your most recent climb:

"Epic day out, scuttled the Direct route after a fall and dropped axe"

In reply to TobyA:

Well that's cute, but the dropped axe was actually my partners, who's fall resulted in his axe (attached to springy leashes with thin bits of cord) flying off down the route. Dead quick recovery on his part though

In reply to Tom Last:

I'm just about to go through the same thing. I think I will start with short ice pitches to get used to the feel and avoid the chance of pumping out.

I'm sure I won't be running up WI5 any time soon but I don't mind.

In reply to Mr Christian:
They seem very good so far, you can see them next to some alternatives here https://twitter.com/TobyinHelsinki/status/412303517550792705/photo/1

and if you scroll down my tweets you'll see a few more unimpressive snaps (and even a wee film) of them in use https://twitter.com/TobyinHelsinki/media but we don't have normal ice yet so its mainly been arsing around drytooling and some gentle tap-tapping up cm thick ice.

On certain thin and non-vert ice they have a slightly alarming tendency when pulling down on the main handle for it too pull slightly outward as well - but my mate says his Fusions do exactly the same. It doesn't lever the pic out but feels well wobbly. I don't think my Vipers or Reactors do that, so I guess its to do with the radical curve of the shaft.

I want to try them more on 'normal' ice as well to see if I think they are too much more my sort of mid grade stuff- ice up to 90 degrees (but not for too long!).

Oh yeah, DMM sent them to me to review for UKC - so they've obviously made a batch; but I have no idea if that's dozens or hundreds and where they have gone!

In reply to GrendeI:

He might not have fallen off in the first place with wrist loops though.

More seriously, on multipitch routes dropping your axe is going to spoil your day one way or t'other so the bungy leashes seem a good compromise then (plus you hear of people getting caught by them when they do fall!) but on single pitch ice or mixed we get round here I tend not to bother as they are some faff and you just lower off if you do drop one.

In reply to TobyA:

Not in this case. But of course it adds serious faff on a route, of course ive contemplated using leashes such as the BD springer or the offerings from grivel but the pictures next to F and G here, inspire me no confidence whatsoever. I'd much prefer to drop an axe and retrieve it than have a surgeon retrieve it from my face. Which I imagine would spoil anyone's day!

http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-BlackDi...

In reply to Tom Last:
What axes do you have? I would recommend trying leashless but only if your axes are up to the job. The springer leashes are a good idea if you're worried about losing an axe. Try it on second to start off with.

In reply to GrendeI:
I guess is could happen if the pick placement is poor. If it's good, either the springer leash will stop the fall or it will break, leaving the tool behind.

In reply to Misha:

Thanks for the advice all.

Misha, I have old DMM Venoms, they're not very good.

I certainly wouldn't consider going leashless with them, so it'd a bit of a commitment for me as I'd be splashing out on Apex or Vipers or Quarks or some such.

In reply to Tom Last:
If you're into winter climbing, it's well worth getting good axes. Bear in mind that they will last for many years.

In reply to Tom Last:

IMHO leashless for mixed is best, leashes for ice is also best; stops you getting mega pumped and letting go.

In reply to Tom Last:

I ditched leashes a while ago and am yet to climb definitivly harder without them. For balance i no longer live in scotland so have had less opportunity as well.

I struggled with leash less initially. DIfferent gloves helped I was using neoprene (cheap warm and smelly) crucially a little squashy so increased the pump a touch. I've had some horrific pumps leashed and otherwise.

If i went back to leashes I'd go for the least faff I don't know what your using but the BD or petzl clip on /off systems are good.

One thing is for sure it's not your leashes holding you back!

Worth considering a method for clipping into your axes. As the worse possible style is falling off, and whats good enough for mick fowler....

In reply to jonnie3430:

But it's also easier to shake out leashless. Pros and cons for everything...

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for that, though can't see your video !

In reply to Mr Christian:

The video was by mistake anyway, my newish camera has this odd setting where it takes video as you take photo - I think its called the diary function or something. Not totally sure what people use it for, but anyway it had clicked on to that while I was trying to take selfies - arguably inappropriately as I was halfway up a little icefall (very Danish Prime Minister. The inappropriateness that is, as I don't think she ice climbs...).

I'm currently deciding whether to lug them over the UK for Xmas on the off chance I get to do a day in N Wales and that N Wales gets some 'conditions'!

In reply to alasdair19:


That's interesting, do you notice a difference between mixed and ice too?


Yes, very true. I've got Vipers with the android leashes - it's not as quick to place an ice screw needing to release one first but the difference is a matter of a couple of seconds. Very different from the struggle of getting out of wrist loops in the old days.

In reply to TobyA:

I'd never use leashes for mixed. The agility gained is pretty handy and allows you to contrive more and better rests. As dave mac put it "you can climb white magic with about 8 placements..."

For ice, if i was heading for a water ice trip I'd bring some along and use them occcasionally. The tough pitches (rather than the wild ones) are the long featureless 85 degree ones. I got pumped out my mind a few seasons ago on organ pipe wall, leashes probaly would have helped.

In reply to alasdair19:


You youngster you!


Funny - I was telling my mates yesterday as we discussing stein-pulls (and my utter failure to do one properly - hence first fall of the winter!) about Ettle's famous handle jam on the BBC film of him doing White Magic with his MT Vertiges - but I totally get Macleod's point. You just need to get used to the feeling of hanging with both hands off one tool a lot of the time.


Yep, sounds very similar to my experience - once the ice is vertical, even if its only a few body lengths of plumb vertical, I know I'll be happier with wrist loops clipped in. I tend to know that I can always hang long enough from my left with a wrist loop to place a screw with my right - meaning if nothing else lowering off a screw rather than falling.

In reply to Tom Last:

Hi Tom,

Something to think about is how you climb. You find that you get pumped when you are leashed? Do you find it difficult to shake out? Do the axes get in the way when you are trying to place gear? I found these aspects annoying when I use to climb leashed, and also quite 'restricting'. By changing to being leashless, yes initially (or till you become comfortable with the concept) you might grip the axe tighter, but you are also taking away 1 of the reasons that you (not you specifically) get pumped. I feel that this makes ice and mixed climbing feel far more like rock climbing. I would advise initially going for some form of springer leashes rather than straight to fully leashless (unless you are going to do continental style water ice where you can solidly place you axe everywhere!). Oh and I'm suggest that going leashless is a good thing on the basis that you have appropriate axes (dual handle, grivel horn added or similar) and not a pair of Mtn Tech vertiges which from experience are not ideal leashless! Have fun.

Cheers
Andy

In reply to Tom Last:

Have found leashless for mixed / III's to be a major step forward in terms of faff elimination at belays and reducing anxiety over dropping. When on steep snow you can clip one landyard to axe head for plunging but this has rarely been necesary. Haven't done enough at IV and above to comment.

In reply to Tom Last:
I went from leashed Simond Najas to the new BD Cobras which I used with the BD springer and found things much easier; both at reducing faff and climbing itself. I was also saved by the springer on Minus Two Gully when an axe popped and I fell onto the leash. Very surprised to see it held the fall.
If you're climbing grade IV and above then leashless is the way to go as it reduces the time needed to place gear, no need to try and get in and out of your leashes (another energy sap on steep ice) but it doesn't allow you to rest on your leashes which I know some folk like.
Just my opinion but I couldn't imagine going back to leashes.

In reply to Tom Last:

I think the difference becomes more noticeable on harder stuff. Wait til you lead a mixed V then switch and reap the rewards!

In reply to Jonathan Yates:

Hi Mate,

I used to have old grey vipers. I just filed down fang a bit so I could fit cord through hole they fit into with them still there. Then clipped spring leashes into this cord.

Hope this helps,
Matt

In reply to Jonathan Yates:
Firstly, I'd 2nd Matt's advice above about filing the plastic fang a bit. You really only need to file (or slice) a couple of mm to get a decent bit of cord through there. An alternative to doing this can be found on Dane's Coldthistleblogspot site where he just loops the web loop through and around the pommel/spike and griprest of his Nomics - no biner. I don't do this, but he likes it.

Plunging, yes, I don't like it either with pommels clipped, so I got to using a plastic cable tie through the hole at the top of the axe. Being stiff, it's easy to clip the little leash-biner through when you're pumped in gloves, but being so light they don't jangle around like a biner might. Obviously it's not nearly load-bearing but it's more than enough to catch a dropped tool etc.

So as you get to the top of the ice, with your tools placed, unclip the biners from the spikes at the bottom and clip them into the cable-ties at the top. Not only can you plunge, and use your tool like a regular ice axe on the exit slopes, but you can holster your tools like this as you walk off, which you can't easily do when they're clipped at the bottom.

In reply to andyinglis:
Sorry not had time to look at this thread for a few days, but thanks Andy and thanks everyone for all the advice.

Andy those reasons you list are pretty much why I'm considering a swap. Also, My old Venoms have very poor clearance so I'm constantly wragging my hands, so I want new axes one way or another.

Given the apparent lack of reasons for NOT switching, although thanks Jonathan Yates, I noted your post, and I think I'd at least like to try then I think I'll go for something like the Apex, which DMM reckon can take a leash. So if all goes wrong and I don't like it, I've at least got a pair of axes that'll solve the clearance issue and that I can use leashed. Hopefully though I'll have a positive experience like everyone else and have a decent set of leashless axes.

Thanks again all, much appreciated.

Tom

In reply to Tom Last: Never regretted going leashless* as the faff is drastically reduced and shaking out becomes a lot easier. I use a *spring leash to avoid dropping my tools. I think the point about the tool hitting you if you fall off is probably the last thing on my mind if you falling in winter.
If i get to the stage where i may fall off pumped/placing gear i simply drop a loop of rope over the trigger on the best placed axe

In reply to Tom Last:

Tom, I'm now selling my Black Diamond Reactors - see the for sales forum - if you want to try a leashless specific but otherwise rather classic tool (and I've seen people actually use them with leashes too should you wish) for a very reasonable cost!

I'm enjoying using the DMM Switch which is rather similar to the Apex in shape except the lower handle but I think it is too curved to be optimal for less steep ice. A friend with the Apex's has said similar with his although I've not tried that model. I think the radical bent tools are designed predominantly for vertical ice and beyond and equally steep ice. My feeling is that bent shaft tools but less radically bent, (Vipers, Reactors, Quarks possibly new DMM Flys although I've not used them myself) would be better on ice up to vertical and on more traditional UK style mixed.

For 99 percent of people, leashless is a no brainer now, the only decision is if/what lanyard.

For anyone who missed it last year, here is the leashless for a fiver vid again. Those epoxy abominations have got me up WI5 and are still going strong.



Www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQzq8VytOmU

In reply to Dan Arkle:

love the epoxy monsters. I think forearms the size of hams may have something to do with it though....

In reply to Tom Last:

As Jas Wood knows I tried leash less age 67. Never again!!
Now not strong enough.

In reply to Jonathan Yates:
Obviously unclip the springer leashes if you are going to plunge.

With time, climbing with springer leashes will give you the confidence to go fully leashless, at least below your top grade. That's what I'm finding anyway. You could still carry leashes clipped to your harness gear loops just in case.

In reply to Jonathan Yates:
Each to their own but I had androids and found them ok as they do unclip quickly (assuming we mean the same thing - I had the BD metal clip things for Vipers/Cobras) but leashless is way better for me - much more freedom of movement and easier to shake out.

In reply to Tom Last:

Try and imagine rock climbing with the same limitations leashes create,, you may get a eureka moment

In reply to Misha:

I find that I'll climb leashless leading up to Scottish IV and WI 3, and 2nding up to 4 (not hard by many folks standards, but good enough for me!) and find it more fun and relaxing. Having android leashes on, and ready to be clipped if needed really helps my head when things get tense. There's something about the security of being clipped in that helps me out psychologically. As soon as things ease again, being able to unclip and relax back into the climbing again adds to the experience.

Different strokes for different folks and all that.

In reply to Dan_S:
Indeed. Another perspective: today I did a WI5+, possibly WI6 in its current condition, in Cogne. Vertical sections of fluted ice which made pick placements tricky and a slightly overhanging section to get over a cauliflower. I used Petzl Ergos, which don't take any leashes at all unless you attach some cord to the handles (which I haven't bothered with). They do have excellent handles though, much better than on BD Cobras/Vipers say, so it's easy enough to hang off them if you get your body position right (feet, centre of gravity and straight arms are key, as with rock climbing). The second handle is pretty good as well and there is even an extra trigger, which I used a few times today. The climbing involved a lot of hand swapping and resting with alternate hands on the same axe, using the main and second handles. It would have been a lot more difficult with leashes! SAt the same time, I never felt like I needed the extra support of the leashes as the handles are so good (and I have a lot of stamina, which helps). Nor was there much risk of dropping a tool as it doesn't take much for an axe to stick in ice. So I think on harder stuff it helps being leashless. On easier stuff I also go leashless these days but a few years back when what I would now consider easy was the living end, I was always leashed. As you get better, I suspect you will also find yourself going over to leashless!

In reply to Jonathan Yates:


Of course they do, there is still a pause to disconnect and attach them, if you are swapping hands back and forth in quick succession to relieve pump then you're not really connected and actually leashless. Without the security of leashes.

But I suppose if you're able to disconnect your hands from your wrists......

In reply to The Big Man: the limitation is that you don't 'learn the way of the leashless'. Which won't make sense to those who haven't had it 'click' for them.

In reply to Misha:


I can't imagine ever climbing with the faff of leashes again* and nor can I imagine ever climbing without springer leashes (but then I have never climbed without having my axes attached to me - except once and I dropped both of them soloing in the Alps, but they were very fortunately retrievable and I immediately fixed something up with my spare boot laces.....).

*Though I sometimes struggle with the idea of ever winter climbing again!

In reply to Tom Last:

You get less pumped up leash less and can shake the lactic acid out your arms . But I wouldn't do multi pitch without a spring leash to avoid big trouble if you were to drop your axes

In reply to Robert Durran:
Great response!

In reply to Jonathan Yates:


Mine are Grivel and their length is fine!

In reply to Tom Last:

I attach mine at chest level via a length of tape that goes from belay loop, up over shoulder and under arm and back to belay loop, with a bite in it to clip to.

In reply to Jonathan Yates:


You could always attach them to your rucksack shoulder straps. This keps them out of the way of your rack too. I used to attach my non-stretchy cord like this.

In reply to Jonathan Yates:


I know a lot of people larks foot their leashes to their harness but I think this adds to faff. I have a snap gate to rope loop, harness loop, camera sling, or rucsac shoulder strap. When I get to a belay, I can clip that to one of the bits of gear and get my axes and spring leashes well out of the way so less tangles result.

In reply to jonnie3430:
Agreed larksfooting whichever end of lanyard is a recipe to create a mess of entanglement.
I have found it is a lot easier to organise and prevent the potential mess by clipping a full-strength krab each to all the three ends of the lanyard.
Plus the krab to your end had better be clipped to somewhere load-bearing like a belay loop of the harness - if you fall off in leading and IF your axe placement is not ripped, the lanyard is very likely to stop the fall (if the lanyard is the BD spring leashes... I don't know about the lanyard from other makes).
Masa

In reply to masa-alpin:
I've had no problems with a simple lark's foot to my harness belay loop but i'm half tempted to try clipping with a krab so they can be put out of the way on some belays.

PS. No regrets from switching on easy - mid-grade climbs.

In reply to Tom Last:
No spring leash is designed to hold a fall,

they are just designed to stop you dropping an axe. Some folk have fallen and they have held others not.

I think the blue ice boa leash larks footed has the highest rating but don't quote me on that


Just checked the blue ice boa leash is only 2kn

In reply to Tom Last:

Pretty much all has been said on this thread, but for me, if you are using technical tools then leashless is the way to go. Even on easy ground. On chalk, rock or ice by far the majority of dropped tools that I have witnessed were due to the climber letting go as a result of being pumped out their box, and the remaining minority were due to clusters associated with leashes. A really simple but top tip I picked up from John Arran several years ago was to try and rest with your arm(s) below shoulder height as much as possible - and this holds true for any type of climbing. Apart from all the other benefits of leach less climbing already mentioned, not being strapped to the critters is what let's you do this. Even clipper leashes take time and energy to get in and out of. Those fleeting moments taken to shake out, all add up to take lactate away and fight the dreaded pump, so anything that hinders this process is no friend of mine.
I feel far happier having 1 or 2 well placed tools that I can leave in the ice and flit between while shaking out as opposed to being leashed to both above my head or having to fiddle with clippers in gloved hands or worse, have to remove a tool to shake out.
If it starts to go pear shaped then you can always clip a tool or even flick the rope over the handle and ask for a tight rope, it's poor style I know and will probably cost you some pride and a round of drinks but they don't call them screamers for nothing ......

In reply to taddersandbadger:


Doesn't that suggest that had they wrist loops on they might not have dropped it in the first place?

Everybody knows the advantages of leashless these days, but I'm sure anyone who climbs regularly at ice cragging type areas will have never or very rarely seen dropped tools before leashless was the norm, whilst now it's relatively normal to see particularly with steeper mixed. Judging from the lost and founds here, it even happens in Scotland a bit.

In reply to TobyA:

Just to add a slight note of disagreement with the majority view.

Leashes aren't necessarily the faff of current popular belief, though the overdesigned high end ones, including clippers, often are.

They are a good idea on populated ice routes. When you get smashed in the face by a lump of ice from the party above the outcome is likely to be better if you have leashes ( I defy anyone not to put their hands to their eyes if hit in one).

Not using tethers on a populated climb is dangerous; imagine the damage a dropped tool going down the chimney pitch of .5 could do.

In reply to TobyA:



Perhaps I did not explain that too well. When I say that the majority of tools are dropped due to the climber being pumped out and letting go, this is not to say that this is restricted to leashless climbers only. Most of my climbing buddies that still use full leashes or clippers spend a fair bit of time out of them, especially when placing screws, so they are equally vulnerable plus have the added energy, time and additional lactate contribution associated with getting in and out of them to deal with.

For me personally, I will shake out a fair bit when placing a screw, so that I head off again with two reasonably rested arms as opposed to one that has been tied above my head for a few minutes .

Having done a fair bit of ice cragging in France every year I have yet to have to dodge a falling tool, but do get to dodge plenty of falling ice at times and this is definitely easier if you are not tethered to two firmly placed tools. As for the mixed stuff, I agree dropped tools are far more common but with the recent explosion in popularity of mixed climbing this is to be expected. It is a bit like saying we see more road traffic accidents since they started mass producing cars.....

In reply to Nick Harvey:

Spot on

In reply to rogerwebb:
As Toby says, falling ice rather than falling axes is the greater danger when there are others above you on an ice route. Hence generally I wouldn't do an ice route with someone else above me unless it's wide enough to stay out of the firing line.

Leashes are a faff because you can't just take your hand off straight away. On easier stuff that doesn't really matter of course.

In reply to Misha:


Falling ice is the more likely danger, a falling tool is a greater danger!

It is also almost entirely avoidable.


Depends how well you've made your leashes and the balance of advantage/disadvantage on the particular route. I'm not saying that leashes are better, just that sometimes they are.

I hate seeing an unthinking orthodoxy taking over often to the disadvantage of people new to the sport.

90% of the time I climb leashless, sometimes, because of the particular situation, I don't.

In reply to woollardjt:

I don't disagree with that at all.
Certainly no manufacturer would ever say they would hold a fall.

But in reality I have witnessed and experienced them to hold falls, including a hard one (the leader well above the tool).
A friend of mine was using a 4mm cord to connect the lanyard to the axe, and in a leader fall, the cord broke, while the lanyard was OK. The breaking strength of 4mm cord is roughly 4kN or a bit less, which means it is a lot stronger than 4kN as a loop. I have no idea if the cord may have caught the metal edge or was already damaged, but the point is the lanyard was actually pretty strong at least in that case.

Black Diamond Spring Leash system seems to be rated as 2 kN. Although 2kN is pretty weak, considering its massive elasticity, I take it has a good chance to arrest a fall, IF and only IF the placement stays.
After all in most of the times, the fall factor would be very small - your tool is likely to be above you.

I totally agree you should never trust the lanyard to take any fall. But in reality it is I found very nice to have a potential backup - a bit like having a RP pro at sharp end in rock climbing. Massively better than nothing.
Masa

In reply to Tom Last:
Horses for courses. I go leashless when I'm on steep mixed ground, or as leashless as I dare if I think I might drop something. If I did a big ice route, I'd want leashes I think, in case I wanted to hang off them.

Certainly the less tat in your face the better. But there's also the stress of wondering if you're going to drop something to factor in. On Saturday I was seconding steep mixed on a spinner + bungee. It's brilliant being able to tuck a tool behind a boulder and just forget about it while you work out where you want to put the next placement, and it's brilliant being able to climb with your hands or jam a forearm if that's what the situation requires. It's nicer still being able to do all this, while aware that it's physically impossible for me to drop a tool.