UKC

I left a purple Zero G nut in the first belay on Ordinary Route the-Friday-before-last.

Has anyone found it? I wouldn't usually ask, but as Zero G have gone out of business I can't replace it.

Must be worth a pint, or something.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
I feel that if Murph left this soldier on the battlefield he should be for ever in your debt! He shouldn't be allowed to sleep until he replaces this integral part of your rack! May his peers pour scorn upon him for his hideous offence!
Oh and can you tell him I owe him a bottle of rum for the tent. Ta

In reply to paget:

Damn straight. That's the kind of debt that can never be repaid.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Badly placing gear you didn't need to place and you really don't want to lose on an easy mountain Diff might neccesitate a bit more than the offer of a pint for recovery. Some people build racks following muppets and they don't normally act generously. I wish you luck whatever (my price would have been some form of ritualised OTT apology here).

In reply to Offwidth:
Thanks for your constructive comment.

The belay point in question was in the 'scoop' section of the crack where an equalised anchor is entirley necessary to make a safe belay.

My second was a beginner, not a muppet, who pulled on the nut when he should have pushed. The nut was well placed and more experienced climber would have been able to extract it without any difficulty. I would have abseiled back down to recover it but my second was climbing slowly and I didn't want to run out of light.

This particular Mountain Diff was harder than usual. We were wearing big boots, it started to rain, and the rock was greasy...so placing gear was necessary.

If you want more than a beer for returning a lost nut, you can keep it. I'm really not that bothered.

In reply to Offwidth:
Here here off width! Your cutting comments without knowing any detail whatsoever made me smile!
I feel all beginners who venture out into the mountains come rain or shine showing great enthusiasm should have scorn poured upon them. The muppets!

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Zero G nuts are shit, no wonder it got stuck. Get yourself a set of WC rocks, there are loads on sale cheap on here at the moment for some reason...

In reply to wilkie14c:

Shit is the correst adjective.

Where can I pick-up a cheap set of WC's?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Keep your eye on the for sale board here on UKC, 2 sets sold in the last week. WC are sending out the recall replacements but many have had to go and buy some anyway because of the delay, now they have 2 sets and sell the extra set on. Or shout up in the wanted section if you can't wait1 good luck, sure you'll get some though

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

How can a beginner be expected to learn how to remove gear if you don't punish them for their mistakes? Your second should have been made to feel thoroughly guilty at the loss of a treasured piece of gear, made to replace it (with something far better and more expensive) and required to buy you copious amounts of beer in penance. Pleading for its return is just letting them off the hook.

In reply to Howard J:

A Moac is tresured, a Zero-G is a wart

In reply to THE.WALRUS:






A climber who does not know when to push or pull, beginner or not, is definitely a muppet. The principle of the wedge has been know since Egyptians split rock for pyramids...............or he was instructed (or not...) by a bigger muppet. Indeed one who climbs in big boots, when it is about to rain and, surprise, surprise the rock became greasy......... and please how can a "diff" be harder than usual? Diff is diff is diff. Harder it becomes (believe it or not) a V diff. Muppet led by novice beginner. Your fault, it's now crag swag. Grow up or stick to your x-box.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

I have to take issue with one of your points. I believe that big boots are entirely appropriate for the ordinary route in the wet. Simply jamming a big block of vibram into the groove for the first couple of pitches is far more effective than climbing shoes.

Both are a bit excessive though, as I have first hand experience suggesting a mediocre like me climber get up it in trainers in the sleet.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:


I hope this is in jest.

In reply to paget:

It's not the beginners fault IMHO.. its most likely the leader's fault or maybe just a bit of bad luck. If the beginner second is possibly not up to dismantling the belay without loss within the range of possible mistakes expected, the leader certainly should not place gear he doesn't want to risk losing. In practical terms this means choices: down climb on belay and get it, or ask a following party if they can be kind, or stick to single pitch, or offer a worthwhile reward. In this case the already high resistance amongst climbers to returning 'crag swag' will likely increase due to the muppetry demonstrated but I still hope he is lucky and gets his nut back.

I've been climbing decades and still sometimes do things which would constitute muppetry from time to time (the odd stuck runner that better placed would have been OK, dropped gear, etc)

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

While we're at it we got a nut stuck on Original Route on the continuation wall, a blue BD stopper. I'd just like to know that it's been removed

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

Yawn. You really are a total dick, aren't you?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I hope you get your gear back mate. Despite some of the ridiculous shit some people spout on here you are at least getting out there and climbing, and more importantly introducing novices to the sport.

In reply to Removed User:

Here here! You do get some muppets on here (ignore them if you can)

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

The last time I did Ordinary Route was with my then 11yr old daughter. We followed a group from the RAF MRT up the route. They left several bits of gear behind because they had forgotten their nut key. We managed to get them all out, only one requiring the use of my nut key. They did offer to let us keep what we had retrieved, but being a gentleman I gave it all back to them.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I have had the luxury of climbing since before the internet and climbing walls were around. We started out by reading books, borrowing gear, checking each other out, using 120 foot hawser laid ropes, crappy nuts, before cams, learning from watching others and by breeding ability from the application of common sense. The sheer amount of unadulterated tripe that manifests itself as forum discussion, decision taking competence, common sense and basic lack of understanding and ability on this forum regularly is beyond belief. Mr. Beynon and Offwidth have it about right (offwidth, I believe we have met?) Shiner, if you can't understand I am in far less than jest, then pack up and go home. Walrus, I do hope your mummy is close enough to wipe your bottom before, during and after bedtime and your second's mummy still opens door for him. Not knowing whether to pull or push must be a heart breaking disability.................. Sorry all, but it has to be said. You only posted this after almost a fortnight too - you cannot be that serious about the loss.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
UncleSpam, you are truly a prize winning arse.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

Speechless. What a prime idiot you come across as Sir.

Mr walrus-I hope your gear turns up and well done on what sounds like a jolly fun day in the hills.

Mike.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

He is only asking if anyone found a nut he left on a route.

Are you Major Misunderstanding out of Viz, calm down dear.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess: Prick.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Really? How did you get past the 'checking each other out' stage? You are quite clearly a slack-jawed bed wetter who would make pretty tedious company on a belay ledge...not to mention an arm-chair commando with limited climbing experience (and poor command of written English), judging by the content of your posts.

As for trying to curry favour with OffWidth...he's admitted getting the odd nut stuck over his climbing career, which makes him a disabled, nappy filling muppet in your book.

Perhaps next time you meet him, he could do us all a favour and kick you squarely in the balls. Which are presumably located underneath the large dick on your forehead!

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:



I wish there was a 'like' button!

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

PS

Does a Walrus wipe its bottom ?

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

Oh keep up, dear boy. A Walrus get's it's mummy to wipe it for him (before, during and after bedtime).

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

Prick +1

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Well I must admit that even by UKC standards, the amount of flack you've copped from a couple of folk on here, for asking if anyone has found a piece of missing gear is a bit OTT - even if it was left on Bumbly Hill - and that's coming from someone who's more than capable of being a sarcastic tw*t at times.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

. The sheer amount of unadulterated tripe that manifests itself as forum discussion, decision taking competence, common sense and basic lack of understanding and ability on this forum regularly is beyond belief.

No need to put urself down like that.

In reply to Goucho:

Sir

Bumbly Hill is another mans or Walrus's Everest.

In reply to Goucho:


Arguably true. But the fact remains that the nut is legitimate swag. I hope that anyone who now has the nut on their rack is getting extra special satisfaction from their ownership reading the whining nonsense on this thread.

In reply to Albert Tatlock:




Via the South Col Route with fixed ropes all the way maybe

In reply to Robert Durran:


I quite agree. Auntisamunclebess has surpassed themselves in oldtimer whining.

I don't think anyone has suggested it wasn't legitimate crag-swag - but in the words of the OP :
"I wouldn't usually ask, but as Zero G have gone out of business I can't replace it.

Must be worth a pint, or something."

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Sir

Just to clear up any ambiguity, what do you infer by "something" ?

In reply to wilkie14c:


A novice won't know that, though. Pour on the guilt.

In reply to wilkesley:


You did the decent thing. You could have kept their gear - but didn't. You could have come on here and slagged them off - but didn't.

As I recall, The Ordinary Route is particularly prone to being greasy when wet. People struggle. They get knackered. They leave gear behind. Big deal.

There's an E7 in the Mournes called, "We're All Learning..."

Mick

In reply to wilkesley:


Confirmation - too many beginners see the nut-key as the default option for removing kit when wiggling and teasing is often more effective. I often see gear being bludgeoned further into cracks by unsubtle nut-key use!

Bottom-line, if you go climbing with beginners, expect to lose the odd bit of gear and don't place anything too valuable or too deeply!

In reply to Mick Ward:


*offtopic* I very much read that as "We're All Lemmings..."

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

My picture is in the Froggatt guide in loads of places (including the back of the guide, though you will struggle to find let alone recognise me there .

I followed a pair on Cinque Torre once when it started raining. I moved as fast as possible to try and catch them and give the increasing rack of gear I was collecting back, but failed. It was almost like they were gear fairies. At the opposite extreme a top-class wanker used to hang around at the Roaches and recover stuck gear and try and sell it back to those who lost it.

In reply to Wlalrus

To be fair to my true level of muppetry my nuts which stick usually leads to inconvenience and swearing rather than loss. I often don't place gear at all outside obvious simple and easy to dissemble belays when climbing with inexperienced seconds. If you post in the wanted pages I'm sure someone will sell you a second hand replacement.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm sure you're gear placement is first class. You really don't need to explain yourself to me...I wasn't implying that anyone who loses a nut, climbs an easy route or gets caught out in the rain is a nappy filling muppet. That was unclesamsauntibess.

What's all this about getting caught in the rain on Cinque Torre? More muppetry! Unclesamsauntibess will have a thing or two to say about that, no doubt!

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

In some ways I agree with your statement,

"I have had the luxury of climbing since before the internet and climbing walls were around. We started out by reading books, borrowing gear, checking each other out, using 120 foot hawser laid ropes, crappy nuts, before cams, learning from watching others and by breeding ability from the application of common sense"

Not many people will disagree that the methods that you learnt to climb are great, and alongside other training/practice will develop excellent climbers.

The issue you mention about the forums seems to be best manifested in your post and those back to you, many posts seem to adopt the "I'm on an internet forum" ethos, the fact we can post what we like, say what we like to a person who's login name may not even represent them. Rather than the fact you sit in a pub, overhear someone say something stupid to their friend the other side of the room, chuckle to yourself and thank god you're not them..

On another note, fair play Walrus, best tangent a lost and found post has had in ages!

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

You would have come out of this thread better without the sniping.

Cinque Torre is short and easily accessed: you can go there on mixed days when showery rain is likely to spoil the longer routes.

In reply to Offwidth:


Erm..... is this some sort of double or triple irony beyond my comprehension? He only asked if somebody had found his bloody nut!

In reply to Papillon:


Which is very bad form. It's no longer HIS bloody nut. It's swag.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
Yeah, no one is coming out of this looking good. Certainly not the "Back in my day" brigade.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

There were plenty of cock-ups back in the day. If you were unlucky, you died. Don't really want to go back to those mad old, bad old times.

Mick (who was lucky)

In reply to Mick Ward:

>The Ordinary Route is particularly prone to being greasy when wet.

I'm not sure about that. It's particularly prone to being wet when wet, that's for sure, but in those circumstances I wouldn't say it was any more greasy than the average mountain stream.

jcm

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Good luck in your endeavours.

But when all's said and done....it is now swag.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Couldn't agree more. I forgot to retrieve my ice gear hanging in a tree below the terminal moraine of a glacier below Pico Roncagli in the Cordillera Darwin in 1980. Returned in 1981 but no sign of tree or gear. Somewhere down there are two Terrors and a pair of Grivel crampons, old school ice screws and a copy of Peyton Place (my expedition reading was very highbrow in those days) in a plastic bin liner.

In reply to Offwidth:


I was confused for a bit there, managed to swap Cinque for Cerro.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


You do know Zero G nuts are (were?) shite yeah?

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:


To quote your own logic, Muppet is muppet is muppet, therefore would a 'bigger muppet' be feasible?
Also you seem like a really easy going non opinionated kind of fellow, real salt of the earth friendly type... Not.
Don't tell me you're one of those know it all arrogant can't do anything wrong types, wow must be really good to be so infallible lets hope your good luck continues in your twilight years.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




The thing I always remember about the Idwal Slabs is just how ungreasy it is in the wet, because the routes are so popular that there's absolutely not lichen on them. The rhyolite, despite the wear, still has a huge amount of intrinsic friction. I can scarcely think of a piece of rock that is less affected by the wet. (Well, gabbro.)

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Maybe Maestri did too?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I can remember morning meetings in the staff room at the Brenin when venues and instructors were chosen for the different courses. It'd be raining like the floodgates were open and the chief instructor would say:

"Rock Intro, Idwall"

And John Cousins would slap his forehead and say:

"Aaaargh, salmon fishing on the slabs again..."

In reply to Papillon:

Not reading his replies must be causing the comprehension issue. If an OP is upset with the tone of replies its best to stay polite rather than be guilty of the same thing.

In reply to jon:


Ouch!

I still think, "Toni, Toni, Toni..." are a contender for the three most tragic words ever uttered in mountaineering.

Mick

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


A stream of consciousness perchance?

'There is a day on the Ordinary Route on the Idwal Slabs when, magnificently, huge soft snowflakes fall vertically in an absolute stillness and one is unexpectedly swept with happiness.'

And then you get home, realise you've left your purple Zero G (whatever that is) behind, innocently pop a post on UKC and, 'one is unexpectedly swept with...' (clue: not happiness)

Mick

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not particularly upset with the tone of the replies, and I'm certainly not all that bothered about the missing nut. It would be nice to get it back, that's all. I'm well aware that most people will see it as legitimate crag swag and I won't loose any sleep if I never see it again.

I just felt an urge to point out the bleeding' obvious...that unclesamsauntibess is quite clearly a total ball-bag, who complains about 'the sheer amount of unadulterated tripe that manifests itself as forum discussion' whilst spouting unadulterated tripe.

I can't see the benefit of being polite in such circumstances, and I don't see how I can be guilty of the same thing, as it wasn't me who started the whole thing by behaving like a halfwit.

I wasn't sniping at you, by the way. I was merely pointing out that as unclesamsauntibess took issue with me for getting caught out in the rain, he would no doubt take issue with you...along with anyone else who's found themselves in a similar situation.

In reply to Iain Peters:

Another f*cking intellectual, eh? (As my old mentor was wont to utter vengefully.)

Reminds me of a celebrated photo of a fellow guidebook writer (to you, that is, not me). Said aesthete was clearly a connoisseur of fine food (Elsie's Caff Greasy Spoon Special) and even finer literature (The Sun).

Having said all that, I never finished Peyton Place (and perhaps you didn't either). I heard something dreadful happened. Any clues?

Once lent Andy Parkin my copy of Nostromo (never finished that either). Always the gentleman, he returned it. Apparently it was a new copy. On some Nordwand horror, he'd burned the original to provide some warmth to stay alive.

Clearly we were fellow climbers only in name.

Mick

In reply to THE.WALRUS:



Which, if we're being honest (just for a moment), is well-nigh 100% of us.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:
My point exactly.

Funnily enough, I found myself in the Cordillera Darwin a couple of years ago with nothing more to read than the 1991 Viz Annual and the instructions for my Jet Boil. I feel like I've let down my more illustrious predecessors.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

My guess is that Andy would have swapped Nostromo for the 1991 Viz Annual and the Jet Boil instructions in a heartbeat.

Mick

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

There seems to be a lot of 'missing the point' going on in this string: Situation normal then.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
"You are quite clearly a slack-jawed bed wetter who would make pretty tedious company on a belay ledge...not to mention an arm-chair commando with limited climbing experience (and poor command of written English), judging by the content of your posts."

And then:

"unclesamsauntibess is quite clearly a total ball-bag, who complains about 'the sheer amount of unadulterated tripe that manifests itself as forum discussion' whilst spouting unadulterated tripe.
.... and I don't see how I can be guilty of the same thing."

So why don't you ask a third party as I can't see anyone independant thinking your replies are not at least as bad, if not worse and are certainly in breach of site guidelines: Rule "2.Rude, abusive or politically offensive language - Messages which contain excessive and pointless swearing, or insults aimed at other people, or politically offensive language will be removed."

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
You lost face for asking for crag swag back. I've lost gear due to a inexperienced-ish 2nd. We put a fiver each towards a new one. I know they don't make them but they're not a 'classic' like aliens, moacs, offsets (before dmm) and rps (before dmm). Let them gradually die out. You are going to lose/get stuck/drop another one eventually so either replace the set piecemeal or buy another set outright and have doubles for when you need them.

You've got a fair bit of stick here, most don't get quite this much but you have to expect a bemused reaction for wanting your gear back unless there was an accident/rescue. A lot of people get up nice and early the next day to fetch their gear in the scenario you describe. Or spend 20 minutes trying to retrieve a stuck nut on abseil at the crag. You cannot expect to leave gear in the crag for someone else to clean and then pay them a couple of quid for it to conveniently get posted through your door. I realise you offered a pint but for a lot of people you are fair game for a ribbing. If you wanted the nut you would have taken it on the chin and been a little more humble and less aggressive in your replies.

In reply to Mick Ward:


"Sorry, Harsh old son, you've had it" sticks in my memory.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I have a similar story; in 1994 my mate spud shat his jeans and hid them under a rock while we were climbing on the Cobbler. When we went back last year they were no longer there. He was most upset as they were the only Levis he had ever owned.

In reply to Offwidth:
As far a rude/ abusive/ offensive language goes, 'slack jawed bed wetter' and 'total ball bag' are pretty mild by any standards. In fact, other posters on this thread have used far more offensive language...including (horror of horrors's), the occasional f-bomb.

If you want to pick me up for breach of site rule 2, perhaps you should be slightly more even handed. I await the feedback from the site moderator with baited breath.

It's debatable which is worse, calling someone a bed wetter or accusing them of having a disability because he wasn't able to remove a nut, it really doesn't matter...my point was thatunclesamsauntibess started it all, not me. And if you're going to post something as ridiculous as:

"Walrus, I do hope your mummy is close enough to wipe your bottom before, during and after bedtime and your second's mummy still opens door for him. Not knowing whether to pull or push must be a heart breaking disability."

...you can be expected to be called a ball bag. Because you are.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Nostromo on the Nordwand ... has a ring to it.

In reply to FreshSlate:

+1 to all that. Well put.

In reply to FreshSlate:
Does asking for the return of lost property really amount to losing face? There's an entire 'lost and found' forum on this site, dedicated to precisely this kind of thing.

I wasn't expecting 'to leave gear in the crag for someone else to clean and then pay them a couple of quid for it to conveniently get posted through your door'...I merely thought that if someone was passing that way they might be able to retrieve the nut and let me know about it. That's all.

Yes, yes, I know it's crag swag. Yes, I know that plenty of people out there (including me) consider crag swag to be fair game. I just thought that, on this occasion, someone might find it in their heart to return it because it can't be replaced, and, as a pretty crud piece of kit, it's hardly a prized find. Who knows, I might yet be right?

And yes, I realised that this might open me up for ribbing, presumably from a bored section of the UKC community who haven't got anything better to do. But if you rib, you can't really complain if you get ribbed back.

Indeed, if I didn't give some kind of retort to the tripe that was posted by thatunclesamsauntibess I'd be in danger of losing face...which is something that appears to be an issue to you.

I don't suppose that was humble enough for you - would you like me to wear a flat cap?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

I`m with you on this one, some people a so far up themselves its unreal.

Could some of these anal idiots also be the same qualified leaders who take groups, hang ropes and allow people to abseil down classic if low grade routes.

Or are they just another section of idiots, this can be a sport for all with a bit of give and take and respect for each other and the crag.

In reply to WALRUS, in reply to Off-width:

And if you're going to post something as ridiculous as:



Absof**kinglutely !! Please tell over me for breaching the rules too

In reply to THE.WALRUS:




With hindsight do you wish you'd said:

Honourable members of UKC please accept my most humblest apologies for what I am about to have the audacity to ask.

I must be a truly despicable human being but in my efforts to help someone enjoy a day out climbing, even though they were so very unworthy as a mere pitiful beginner, by some inexcusable reckless; some may even say heinous act he (the evil beginner) somehow managed to cause an event that I am almost ashamed and traumatised to be witness too. He pushed my purple Zero G nut in the first belay on Ordinary Route!!!

How can I write such a thing for others to read, please accept my second apology.

However, although I fully understand that this incredibly inferior and pathetic useless piece of equipment (is it even worthy of the name?) now belongs very firmly in the realms of the 'never to be asked for, 100% non-returnable, unmentionable unless whispered 'crag swag' I deign to ask something that I know deserves the harshest of punishments. However, I feel as though I must, please could I ask if someone just happens without any efforts just by some complete fluke to find my purple nut, that they could alert me to this and I will be extremely grateful and will arrange for its safe return? (I know I ask a lot) I will repay said person with the appropriate reward for this truly generous and magnanimous gesture.

Yours THE WALRUS

In reply to shirleynot:
No wonder you reside at HMP Styal. It's the best place for a ghastly and unashamed RULE BREAKER like you.

I could barely bring myself to read your offensive scrawl...but from what I've seen you have DELIBERATELY, WANTONLY and REPEATEDLY broken rules 2, 9 and 11.

Honestly, what is the world coming to? It was much better in my day. You know, back when 'we started out by borrowing gear, checking each other out, using 120 foot hawser laid ropes, crappy nuts, before cams etc etc blah blah tripe blah.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I'm only on remand and yes I am as you say a self confessed rule breaker, they can never gather enough evidence to keep me in for long...

I laugh in the face of rules 2,9 and 11! Bring on my punishment I say I will be quaking in my ridiculously inappropriate big climbing boots on the never any harder than a 'diff' non greasy ordinary route. Ha ha

In reply to shirleynot:
Outrageous. You really need to pack that in before someone calls the moderator.

Anyway, you should stay well away from those Ogwyn diffs. For a start, you're nowhere near humble enough to be out there actually climbing.

What's more, you might get one of your nuts stuck (which would make you a muppet). Or it might rain (which would also make you a muppet). Or 'place a piece of gear that you don't need to place' (...muppet).

Then you'd have to apologise to all the real climbers who know everything. You know, the one's who's pictures appear in climbing guide books and 'have had the luxury of climbing since before the internet and climbing walls'...they'd probably tell you to grow up, or complain about all the rubbish on the UKC forums (while going-on about Egyptian pyramid builders).

Then they'd get all upset when you told them to f@*k off...and admonish you for breaking Rule 2!

So, as I was saying. Stay well away from those diffs. You'd be far better off following thatunclesamsauntibess' advice and staying at home with your Xbox.

He should know. He's a real climber, who knows everything.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Walrus dear boy,
I feel you have been persecuted enough. It would appear inbredsambumshisauntie is most likely a very entertaining troll. New profile, been climbing 112 years, blah de blah and others have been dragged into it. Even egyptian masonry specialists!
I have just purchased your nut by way of barter off shirleynot for a pack of dry roasted peanuts, my signed photo of offwidth wearing nothing but a cheesy grin and a full set of alien cams! Bargain! I will post it back to you!
Shalom.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


Good hope so


Less of the Generic terminology, it's Miss Piggy to you!


Perhaps he remembers them being built.. Or perhaps he was with those Russians who secretly climbed The Great Pyramid of Giza and that was the pinnacle of his climbing achievements? Wonder if they'd be considered 'diff', or (believe it or not) 'V diff'?


Try P**soff next time - you know to appease the oh so easily offended yet willingly offensive kind of hypocrites that frequent this platform!

In reply to shirleynot:

Wonderfully put.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Really? I find it all depressing. Its on the news again this morning about why people feel that they can make personal attacks on the internet that they would never consider doing in public. Its not swearing that bothers me or winding people up its the sheer meaness and nastines in some posts that is worrying from disagreements about relative trivia.

In reply to Offwidth:

I find half the posts on these forums are rather depressing. And yet they aren't as bad as many others.

Let's not forget the first rather mean comment made was:

"Badly placing gear you didn't need to place and you really don't want to lose on an easy mountain Diff might neccesitate a bit more than the offer of a pint for recovery. Some people build racks following muppets and they don't normally act generously. I wish you luck whatever (my price would have been some form of ritualised OTT apology here)."

The volume just got turned up after that.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:




Thank heavens for people who understand irony and can highlight it to those who don't even realise how silly they make themselves look

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Absolutely true.

Funnily enough, Its the very same person who made the first mean comment, started the name-calling and expressed his approval for unclesamsauntibess trolling who is now complaining about 'personal attacks on the internet that they would never consider doing in public' and 'the sheer meaness and nastines in some posts'. How ironic.

Offwidth, if you find the faceless personal attacks on these forums depressing, I suggest you stop making them.

Had you climbed up Ordinary Route behind me and located the missing nut I very much doubt you would have called me a muppet to my face (from what you've said, you would have swiped it and carried on climbing).

So why call me a Muppet from the safety your arm chair?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


Actually, I suspect that the vast majority of those who understand the swag tradition/rules (myself included) would have chosen to offer it back to you. Your mistake and where you lost face was to actually ask for it back - that is not acceptable.

The one thing you got right was not to start this thread in the "Lost and Found" forum. The nut was not lost. It was abandoned. That is a crucial distinction; abandoned gear, except in exceptional circumstances such as a rescue, is swag. Lost gear is not.

Depessingly, the "Lost and Found" forum is full of posts asking for abandoned rather than lost gear back.


Because you have behaved like one? For all he knows you might also be some sort of psycho who would beat the shit out of him if called a muppet (however justifiably) from a less safe location.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think a lot of people on here would agree that there isn't any muppetry to comment on here ( you are known for you extreme views on crag swag).

I am interested in what people would/wouldn't say to each other on here as opposed to face to face. I don't think it's a case of implied violence, rather it would stop what would otherwise be a friendly conversation eg. I'd tell someone I didn't know too well 'p*ss off' if they called me a 'muppet' with no justification.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Like most of the nonsense on this thread, your argument doesn't really stack up.

Without advertising the fact that I had lost (or abandoned) the nut, no one would have known who owned it, so 'the vast majority of those who understand the swag tradition/rules would have chosen to offer it back to you' wouldn't have known who had left it there in the first place.

As for the exceptional 'circumstances caveat'...you seem to be suggesting that if I'd faffed about retrieving the nut as the daylight faded and the weather got worse and ended up needing to be rescued, I'd somehow be worthy of having it returned!

I assume this is some kind of antiquated old-skhool claptrap that no one really takes much notice of anymore.

As for your pro-trolling, pro-name-calling stance...it's not really worth a retort. But if you're not prepared to have the courage of your convictions and tell someone to his face what you are happy to write from afar on the internet then you really are a muppet.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Part of this thread amuses me greatly, and part makes me sad...

But to be boring and legal, taking nuts that people have been unable to retrieve (rather than unwilling) is surely theft in the legal sense (if they refuse to return the item)? Especially if they have subsequently made an appeal to have it returned, I doubt a judge would consider it genuinely abandoned.

I do also appreciate (as did the OP) the unofficial rules of crag swag :P

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I was referring to the situation described of having hypothetically been following you up the route.


Arguably.



I wouldn't call someone names ("muppet" is hardly extreme name calling anyway) unless it was justified. And i wouldn't do so to their face unless I was sure they wouldn't beat the shit out of me; that is just common sense.

In reply to Papillon:


My views are not extreme; they are normal and in the long established tradition of crag swag. It is a great shame that this tradition is being undermined by those ignorant of it.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Actually, the though had occurred to me, but I didn't want to open the proverbial box of frogs by suggesting that the law of the land might trump the unwritten ethics of old-skool swag hunting.

It really would be trivial to apply criminal law to an unloved and battered old Zero G left behind on Idwal Slabs, and I don't think that the Ogwyn Valley beat copper would thank you for filing a crime report if it went missing...but logically you'd have to apply the same rule to swiping an abandoned nut (with an identifiable owner) to swiping anything else.

I wonder what OffDuty would have to say about this? I imagine he's too busy shooting innocent armed gangsters who parading around at the Masonic AGM with his underpants on his head to pass comment...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Plenty of traditions are bad. Personally I would rather live in a world where everyone is nice to each other and would always try to return other people's property should they find it, with due consideration to their misfortune in losing it... :P

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

The most appropriate legislation for use in a prosecution regarding this incident might be the law on littering. I think you could be fined up to £2000.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sweet Jesus! I though some of the other arguments on this post were weak!

If you really, honestly think that it would be arguably better to call out the Ogwyn Valley MRT than leave a stuck nut behind and finish the route before the weather craps out and the light fades, there's absolutely no point taking this argument any further.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Better.

Presumably fixed tat et al would fall into the same category, and involve the same fine?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Forums like this seem to have created a new morality. Once upon a time it would have been almost impossible to find the owner which is why finding gear on a route was treated as legitimate "crag swag"

Personally I would just accept the loss but remind the second of his failure on every possible occassion for the rest of his life.

In reply to GridNorth:

Noted. I strongly agree with both of your comments!

In reply to GridNorth:
So now there are internet forums and it is easier to ask if anyone has picked up your gear. Maybe someone has taken it as 'swag' and to be honest the OP doesn't seem that bothered about it. But I don't see why it is considered such poor form to ask, even if nothing ever comes of it.

Still, it has lead to an amusing thread where certain old-skool climbers have shown themselves up to be extremely un-self aware and a bit daft really!

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Don't tell me you've been leaving fixed tat too!? The law takes a very dim view of serial offending you know.

In reply to malky_c:

Another comment I strongly agree with!

In reply to Wicamoi:

Guilty as charged! I'll sign-up for voluntary community service...repairing footpaths in Llanberis, or something.

Actually, I was thinking of starting a thread asking for the return of some prussic I left on Lliwed. Would this be poor form?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Mmmmmm.... I've been involved in a very similar situation. I retrieved a nut an inexperienced second couldn't. Later in the day the leader came over and asked for his nut back..... I happily obliged, I couldn't imagine anyone refusing and making snide remarks.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Back in the very early 70's my partner and I followed Pat Littlejohn up Slanting Slab on Cloggy. Pat's second could not recover the aid nut on the overhang but my mate did. Pat if you are reading this, I'm afraid I can't find it now.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Not acceptable? According to who? In over twenty years of climbing I don't remember ever being given a set of rules that had to be followed. Do everyone a favour and stop making shit up.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Can someone please put this thread down humanely.

In reply to malky_c:

Yet only one person really attacked the asking. Every other critic was looking at the manner of the asking (some in fun) or objecting to the personal 'eye for an eye' attacks. If anything is overstated in this thread its the flak.

If I could make enough people act better to each other by appearing daft I'd devote my life to daftness. As it is I'm perfectly aware of being daft at times and I expect I appear daft to others even more often. My self awareness in this respect is not dissimilar to the way I admitted to occasional muppetry above.

I do however object to my original post as being 'mean' when its intent was part neutral and part the opposite. I certainly see returning gear where possible as good, as long as in this exchange covering costs is realistic (how much does it actually cost to post a nut?). Crag swag isn't strictly speaking theft either: it's recovery of abandoned gear with an assumption this is what most climbers expect; legally you should probably take it to the local police station then re-collect it after no one has claimed it but what benefit would that be to the overall climbing community or waste to police time? I think offering to fully cover costs in advance for small items like nuts that hold some particular personnal attachment is only reasonable.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Meanwhile... have you got your nut returned Walrus?

In reply to Choss:

No, damn it! Not so much as a knock on the door!

I was quite hopeful that I'd open the door this morning to find OffWidth asleep on the doorstep, having personally retrieved it from Ordinary Route and taken a private jet up to Manchester in order to return it to it's rightful owner, reunite it's other battered Zero G friends and deliver a £2000 fine for littering....in return for a frothing pint of real ale.

Sadly, the only thing that greeted me when I stepped out into the world this morning was a fresh dog turd and a traffic jam. Honestly, where is the humanity?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I prefer my real ale without the sparkler.

In reply to Offwidth:

Crikey. You don't ask, you don't get. You do ask, you probably won't get either, but might be worth a try. Hardly worth an essay is it?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Was the dog duly reunited with his lost property, or had he abandonned it? I presume there's a website for such matters. (Sorry; gets coat, etc...!)

In reply to malky_c:

This is a talking shop, people talk here.

The way it was asked sparked my original reply: a 'special' lost nut on a belay that is easy grade climbing from the base to reach (that it turns out the tusked one claims subsequently he doesn't even care that much about). Since then things expnded and I've had lots more things to talk about that interest me.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


No I don't think that and I didn't say that. Try reading my post again.

In reply to GridNorth:


Regtettably it does seem to be going that way, though it should obviously be resisted. A win some/lose some swag tradition is much prefereable to endless internet posting and the hassle and expense of mailing nuts around the country and buying pints in return.

In reply to Removed User:


There are no rules in climbing, but many things by concensus considered unacceptable and for which one should expect censure or ridicule.

In reply to Papillon:

No, I don't think anyone would refuse (myself included). And I think virtually everyone (myself included) would offer a nut back if the person who abandoned was still at the crag even if they didn't ask for it. But it is still bad form to actually expect and ask for it back.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Don't know about resisting, I think some of us older climbers just need to learn to accept or ignore. It's the same with these posts about a loose block on route such and such. When I first see them I think Oh God!!! but that's modern communication for you. Indeed we are encouraging it's use by participating in the threads but there is a little bit of me that longs for the good old days. But I'm not giving up my modern protection for anyone.

In reply to malky_c:


While I regret the tone of some of the comments on here, I think that the noble ethic of crag swag really actually IS worth an essay: it's a pleasing example of groups of humans being perspicacious, fair-minded, communitarian and self-confident enough to know when the law of the land doesn't provide the best system for their needs and that a better ethic can be - and has been - applied. No fuss, no paper work, no arguments. It is a pity that lost and found forums may destroy this brief beacon of hope, and return us to a more individualistic, authoritarian, complicated and mundane state.

It is best not to think of gear as your own, but to regard it as the property of all climbers. You hold it in trust for a while, and because you are responsible for keeping it from littering the crags you take it home with you, and because you hold it in trust you must also look after it properly and discard it if it is no longer safe. Every now and again you may need to buy a new piece to add to the pool - it's your civic duty - a bit like a tax. But the time comes when it is right for you to abandon a piece and bequeath it to a new guardian; just as surely a time will come when you must accept custodianship of a piece that another has abandoned.

Gear flows through climbers like DNA flows through generations. So if someone asks why is is bad form to try to recover an abandoned piece, the answer is simple: it was never really yours in the first place.

In reply to GridNorth:

Loose block? I've climbed whole routes without a solid hold. Yorkshire childhoods aside I'd rather be on something solid with my modern pro, using a modern guide and sharing any special experience on a modern thread. However, I don't want to see the back of history, experience, nor even the end of difference (like some of the 'elitist' banter).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, coming from you "muppet" is downright neighbourly.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ways change.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Say you dropped your wallet down a drain and you couldn't quite reach it. Then someone with longer/thinner fingers manages to retrieve it, would it really be unreasonable to expect the wallet to be returned?

In reply to Wicamoi:

Now that's a good post!

'Trouble' is with gear communism is that some climbers end up more equal than others/muppets. I used to collect a winter climbing rack of bent and bashed nuts from Wildcat every year as an example and then give some back to experienced scottish winter climbers. Thats another factor you missed... often its not wise to give muppets their gear back: to be safe they often need a new one.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Well, if the issue of right and wrong is decided by consensus, the consensus of the majority of people who have commented on this thread is that you're talking tosh.

As makly_c pointed out, the obscure crag-swag ethics that you seem to extol are actually all about being dishonest, in the name of tradition.

Back in the day, when everything was much better than it is now, you generally got to keep swag. This was because internet chat rooms hadn't been invented yet and there was no chance that the owner of the missing nut would ever be found. Fair enough.

This gave rise to a whole sub culture of lobotomised crag swaggers who would turn up at popular climbing venues late on a Sunday evening hoping that they'd be able to capitalise on other peoples misfortune, and save themselves from actually having to buy their own stuff.

The caveat to this was that missing kit should be returned if the owner was still at the crag. This was nothing to do with avoiding a black eye, of course, it was just an accepted part of the great and noble tradition extolled by yourself, and hardly anyone else.

However, the advent of the online climbing community seems to have caused a few problems. It's now perfectly possible to locate the owners of missing nuts, even crappy Zero G ones, and return them in return for the cost of a stamp and a pint of beer.

Indeed, some people have even suggested that it would be dishonest to behave otherwise.

The bizarre solution to this problem, as advocated by the handful of people on this site who still think it's the early 80's, is to invoke yet another unwritten rule of this fine and honourable 'tradition'.

Which can be summed up thusly:

1.) Accept that abandoned gear should be returned to it's owner wherever possible and without verbal abuse or cries of 'muppet'..

But,

2.) Decree that it is 'unacceptable' for the owner of the missing kit to ask for it (and anyone who does so should be lambasted anonymously from a safe distance over the internet..in the name of common sense).

The owner of the missing nut will nave ask for it to be return for fear of a remote-lambasting. The crag swagger won't have to return the booty he's found. Order will be restored to the universe.

As I was saying, complete and utter tosh.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

In the 80s we used to return Retrieved gear through new routes books in the south west, so i can only Assume this idea of crag swag is From a different part of the country?

In reply to Choss:

That's interesting but from what I remember of climbing the SW back then it was a little bit of an outpost and most locals used to not stray that far from the area. Likewise visitors from other areas only tended to visit during summer and bank holidays. At least that was my perception at the time. This would have made that arrangement easier to manage.

In reply to gurumed:


Indeed. I reserve "dick-head", "moron", "arsehole" and suchlike for those who truly deserve it; always best to keep something really offensive in reserve for when it is truly justified rather than devaluing it by applying it to mere muppets


True, but when it is for the worse, there is nothing wrong with resistance.


Interesting point. However, the swag tradition in climbing, as expounded so eloquently by Wicamoi above, works superbly well in climbing because the climbing community is small and concentrates itself in certain places; The win some/lose some effect really does more or less balance out over time. Because the wallet carrying population is huge and because wallet losing, let alone wallet abandonment, is a much rarer occurence than nut or ab tat abandonment, a finders keepers ethic for wallets would not usually balance out over a life time and is therefore not a fair or sensible convention. Also, the contents of a wallet is, with the exception of cash, generally much more use to the original owner than to the finder, whereas a Rock 3, say, is as useful to one climber as the next.

In reply to GridNorth:

As in "Oh god, I hope some numpty doesn't take it upon themselves to go out and trundle it!"?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Irrespective of your bogus 'new internet based climber' moralism, for a single nut it's nearly always simply easier and better you buy another one (in your case second-hand). No one is saying its ever unacceptable to post and ask... just the opposite... the thread we produced here relied on it.

Lambasting is a bit strong for banter, the verbal abuse in a few posts in contrast is simply childish and helps no-one and those that keep it up soon discover the moderators do take a dim view. You seem to have the capacity to produce humourous alternative responses, so why not stick to that in future?

Robert's using his own name and I'm far from faceless or safe as I am very publicly linked to various obvious climbing books and meetings and I climb indoors relatively loudly and badly in the Nottingham area.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


In can't be bothered to count back through all the posts, but it certainly isn't a concensus and possibly not even a majority. It is also possible to think of all sorts of potential sources of sample bias in a self-selecting sample on a UKC forum thread concerning an issue about internet use.


Certainly not obscure nor, if you accept the swag convention, dishonest. I do concede that, if there was ever a clear concensus that everyone should go to the hassle of asking for and returning swag via the internet, then not bowing to this concensus could be construed as dishonest, but I really don't think things are that bad yet and I hope they never are.

In reply to deepsoup:

No as in "Oh God, anybody would think that this hasn't been experienced before" and "Oh God, how much adventure do we want removed from climbing."

It's a little bit like giving out un-asked for beta and it's another little bit of chipping away at the adventure experience that many seek.

In reality it's just me not managing to adapt to modern communication.

In reply to Offwidth:


I am


Though I might have to change it......

In reply to Robert Durran:


Except that it was a joke, because "as expounded" you would be happy for me to rummage through your pack and take what climbing gear I wanted while you were on a route or just grab it off your harness while you were wearing it.

In reply to Offwidth:

Really?

Offwidth: "No one is saying its ever unacceptable to post and ask".

Robert Durran: "Your mistake and where you lost face was to actually ask for it back - that is not acceptable" and "depessingly, the "Lost and Found" forum is full of posts asking for abandoned rather than lost gear back".

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


No. There is undoubtedly an overwhelming and probably unanimous convention that that would be theft. The swag tradition applies to knowingly ABANDONED gear. Almost always stuck nuts and stuff abseiled off.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You either say things you dont mean for fun or fail to recognise an almost addictive need to demonstrate your tradness credentials (almost as much as demonstarting how bad the YDS system is compared to UK grading). I'm guilty of very similar sins I'm sure.

I can just imagine you being chased round the scottish hills by muppets whom you pushed over the edge into murderous rage: "Aghh, I'm Robin, I dont know a Robert....".

In reply to Offwidth:

And yes, I have no doubt doubt that anyone posting on this forum could be located without too much difficulty...but that doesn't mean that posting in a way that you wouldn't talk to someone in person is good form, because it isn't.

You too seem to have the capacity to produce humourous alternative responses...I refer you to your own advice.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

This thread keeps on giving

In reply to Offwidth:


No. I am deadly serious. Someone has to uphold the noble traditions of climbing in the face of the ignorant tide which threatens to overwhelm us.



Don't get me started.


So can I. There's a lot of muppets out there.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

The words of The Walrus were written to confound rational explanation but still contain some meaning. Who would have thought it? Time to go home now and thanks for entertainment.

In reply to GridNorth:

No, I don't think you're being entirely fair to yourself there. It's also you not managing to adapt to modern wall-bred climbers expecting everything to be sanitised for their protection.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

S,

looks like your having some good sport here , you not bored yet.

Get on the billy no mates machine and do 10 laps,with no rest for actually going to punterdom that is Idwall Slabs.

As for your Viz book , i recon you've taken the size of the fat slags to heart but that weight ain't gonna get you up them routes

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

is this STILL going on. Its probably rusted away by now!

I once placed an RP on the ungraded pitch of a Lakeland Hard Severe. You can all form an orderly queue to relieve me of my worldly goods and the last of my dignity. Mea culpa. I see this hair shirt now comes in a smaller size, I'll see if I can find the receipt.

In reply to Offwidth:


Nailed it.



Robert won't be caught in the Scottish hills; he'll be too busy pulling bolts from sport routes in lowland quarries.

In reply to Robert Durran:

How will we survive this new hellish era where people give back property when asked for it?

In reply to gurumed:


I've only spent one evening in the last year pulling bolts from lowland quarries. I would much rather have been in the hills, but someone has to sort these things out.


By ignoring them. Anyway, I contest the use of the word "property" in this context.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't see how you can claim that it's no longer property. If you park your car somewhere, get blocked in, and have to walk home and retrieve the vehicle another day have you relinquished ownership?

(It's not a proper internet debate without a car analogy)

Or are you saying that "property is theft", you commie-pinko-bastard?

In reply to nbonnett:
I'll get down the the Manchester Climbing Centre and do 10 laps immediately.

Actually, I was planning a trip down there anyway. I could do with some new rock shoes...I assume that the staff at MCC will abide by the ethics much extolled ethics of 'gear flows through climbers like DNA flows through generations' and let me keep a rental pair that I found behind the counter, along with a harness and a couple of gri-gri's?!

Any yes, I've worn the shoes out because I'm fat. And lazy.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

No one is dishonest, If I see your abandoned shiny nut in ordinary route, I'm probably going to take it out.


If you haven't bothered to abseil down and grab that cam out of a Stanage route then what exactly do you expect? No one is theiving off your harness, people are just clearing whatever crack you have happened to have dislodged your gear in.

If you can't be bothered getting it out, or coming back early the next day; why should someone else be bothered getting it out, taking it home, finding out who's exactly it is, packaging it, taking it to a post office and then paying for it to arrive on your doorstep? It's worth more than the price of the nut for the time it takes the poor chap to do all this.

This is why you lose face to other climbers, because you're inconviencing someone else because you were too lazy to get it out yourself. Although in your case it was not having the foresight to teach your second to take out a nut properly.


This making sense to the above as it's simple and easy to do, but again, if the person didn't bother to retrieve the article themselves: they lose face.


It's all possible, however most people are happy to flag the loss of a nut and say: "Thankyou to who-ever gets that out for me, you can keep it, good luck, it's in pretty good!"


I'll be returning those crisp packets you left on the belay ledge too, shall I? You've littered and now you want your fag packet back? If that were the case no one would be bothered cleaning up anything, for fear of being called 'dishonest'. You're asking people to spend their own time removing things for you and then you want it back with a ribbon on it? Are we going to wait until the next time you decide to visit Wales for you to take your rusting horrible nut out of a classic low grade route?

You may well think this is very unfair, but climbers are one of the most willing groups people to return things back to people. After rescues people will collect the remaining gear and hold it in good faith until the climbers are safe and/or out of hospital. If gear is found on the ground, obviously misplaced, lost or dropped we do our best to return it. Rucksacks with thousands of pounds of gear in will be handed in and the rightful owner tracked down if at all possible.

People will also returned abandoned gear a lot of the time but if you want people to run around as your errand boys due to your own laziness or incompetence then expect to lose face. If you really want someone to jump through hoops getting that £5 2nd hand nut to you, then someone else might be inclined to think you're a fairly selfish individual.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is like a load of primary school kids in the playground? A few people need to grow up.

In reply to FreshSlate:



Classic! What a load of b0l.l0x

In reply to Rog Wilko:
Errrrrm, you may have a point. To be honest, I'm not sure it's really happening...it might just be a dream.

That said, if we're not all fast asleep, r0x0r.wolfo may have just broken new ground by squeezing such a huge volume of unadulterated old-skool claptrap into a single web posting. Really, it's quite remarkable.

Who know's, we may just have witnessed a Nobel prize winning event.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

At last someone with a bit of common sense ,now go to bed kids school tomorrow !

In reply to FreshSlate:
If you refer to my original post...

I left a purple Zero G nut in the first belay on Ordinary Route the-Friday-before-last.

Has anyone found it? I wouldn't usually ask, but as Zero G have gone out of business I can't replace it.

Must be worth a pint, or something.

...you will find that I simply asked if anyone has found it.

Despite your suggestions, I didn't leave any crisp or fag packets on a belay ledge and at no point did I ask anyone 'to spend their own time removing things for you and then you want it back with a ribbon on it' or 'run around as your errand boys' or 'jump through hoops' in order to get it back to me. Sadly, these just weren't options at the time.

I didn't say any of those things, honestly! You've made them all up! If you don't believe me, re-read the thread (if you can stay awake long enough).

Also, for the reasons already given, I wasn't too lazy, or too inept to go back down and get it and I couldn't re-climb Ordinary Route the next day in order to collect it myself.

So, to get back to my original question, have you managed to find my purple Zero G nut? As a fellow Mancuinian, you're ideally placed to arrange for it's return at a hostelry of your choice. I might even get you a packet of Pork Scratchings to go with that beer that I promised.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Would you like rainbows and unicorns, snowdrops and daffodils,butterflies and bees,sailboats and fishermen, things of the sea, wishing-wells, wedding bells. early morning dew, seagulls and aeroplanes, things of the sky, winds that go howlin', breezes that sigh, city sights, neon lights, grey skies or blue, summertime, wintertime, spring and autumn too, Monday, Tuesday, every day, dances, romances, things of the night, sunshine and holidays, postcards to write, budding trees, autumn leaves, a snowflake or two, in this lovely lovely lovely world of yours too?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Bloody hell the shit is flowing tonight.

Anyway.
Leave a nut. Its gone mate.

In reply to gurumed:


No. I don't believe there is such a convention. Again, I doubt this such a convention would balance out fairly over time or be at all convenient (unlike the swag convention).


No

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


My response wasn't to your original post. My responses are clearly to the quoted articles. You've gone off on one accusing someone of stealing your bloody nut. Throwing around "dishonesty", "capitalising on others misfortune" yada yada. Give it a rest.

In reply to stroppygob:


Why not? Although that is an impressive list of things. Things don't have to be horrible to be good, unless its esoterica of course... :P

Andrew McLeod

you guys are so lame

Next time you have the audacity to start a thread on UKC please restrict it to somethingless offensive than abandoning gear on a Diff. Try discussing chipping holds or animal/child cruelty next time.

However, if it's any consolation I can send you a replacement chock to replace yours, I received a whole load of Big Purple Ones for Christmas in a box labeled Quality. Frozen they will make ample gear, and emergency rations.

In reply to Philip:

Thank you, Philip. That's pretty much the only sensible thing that's been written on this thread since r0x0r.wolfo's enlightened tirade about fag packets at Stanage...not only would a frozen Quality Street make an excellent chock, it would also make a tastly treat if I get stuck on a belay ledge and run out of crisps.

You could even lick it down a size if you get it stuck. Would you mind posting me one? I'll get you a beer!

In reply to FreshSlate:
Come one, you’re just getting angry now…

Really, I think you and the other old skool-ers need to have a strategy meeting before you try and engage in sensible debate. I mean, your policy is all over the place.

In summary:

There’s Wicamoi – who appears to be firmly against the return of lost kit, but has provided a fairly compelling hippy-ish-tantric-sex argument to support his view. Fair enough.

There’s OffWidth – who seems to be broadly pro-trolling, in favour of giving back lost gear and thinks that it’s acceptable for people to ask for the return of stuff that get’s left behind…on the condition that the loser accepts he’s a muppet.

Then there’s the other bloke – who’s put his flag in the militant anti-retuning camp, and believes it’s unacceptable even to ask for missing gear to be returned…because of ‘ethics’, or something. I think he might be a terrorist.

unclesamsauntibess – hasn’t provided a great deal of input since his first, compelling argument. I assume his stance on the status-quo still stands as ‘I do hope your mummy is close enough to wipe your bottom before, during and after bedtime’.

And finally, we’ve got you’re opinion on the matter – which isn’t particularly easy to divine from your phlegm splattered ranting’s. As far as I can tell, you’re anti-littering (which, I think, we can all agree with) and pro-the return of abandoned gear…but then there's something about losing face and fag packets. What's that all about?

I, for one, am quite confused. So I’ll get back to my original question. Have you found my missing nut, or not? And can I have it back?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I wouldn't bother trying to explain yourself to someone who uses the phrase "lose face" so many times in a post. Thinks he's a Samurai or something?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

If you put a tight Elastic band over your bawbag, youll soon see your purple nuts again ;-D

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Actually, I think you've raised quite an important point here.

As a Samurai who appears to have lost more than a bit of face himself, what would happen if I were to find his face on, say, Ordinary Route at Idwal Slabs.

Would I be able to return his face, or would that be some kind of breach of ethics?

More importantly, would he be able to advertise his lost face on an internet chat room...or would he have to wait until someone were to pipe-up an offer it's safe return in exchange for a pint of beer?

I don't want to upset anyone's sensibilities here, but climbing ethics mixed with the Samurai's code of honour is quite a minefield.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I think we've opened up a can of worms with this one.

It's been a fun read! Covered a lot of ground...

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
The moral of the story seems to be mention your (mis)adventures on the Idwal Slabs on UKC at your peril!

I'm amazed, and slightly amused, at how a crag can create such an amount of raw emotion.

Not the first time too - the recent thread on the way down springs to mind... Probably many others besides.

In reply to Si Cox:

Indeed. Amazed, but not suprised.

Do you have the latest on snow conditions in the The Atlas...particularly around Mgoun?

I hear there's been a big dump in the Toubkal area, but I'm not sure if snow shoes will be needed to climb Mgoun...I'm heading out there on tuesday.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Apologies for thread diversion. Here's the latest: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=571904

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
I must have missed the compelling tantric-sex bit.

I didn't really make the argument in favour of the crag swag ethic. I'd much rather wax lyrical about the beauty of gear flowing through climbers like DNA again, and perhaps tell some stories of items I have abandoned and items I have found and how both give me pleasure in their different ways... but instead it seems that you think I should undertake the duller task of codifying Crag Swag Law.

Luckily all anyone needs to grasp to see that Crag Swaggery is easily the fairest, quickest and most effective means of dealing with the issue is the following:

1) The meaning of the word "abandoned." You need to learn this one because the first rule of Swag Club is that it only applies to abandoned gear). Abandoned means "deliberately left behind." It does not mean forgotten. It does not mean unknowingly lost. It does not been accidentally left behind because of temporary ill-fortune. It means you deliberately left it behind because you were either too lazy or too incompetent to retrieve it.

Lesson - Crag Swaggery rewards competence and endeavour.
Result - we learn faster and try harder.

2) Cheats cannot prosper under Crag Swag Law (whereas they can and will prosper under the Lost-And-Found-Forum alternative).

Lesson - Honest people owe it to other honest people to obey Crag Swag Law.
Result - we are a happier, closer community.

3) Crag Swag Law absolutely satisfy Kant's categorical imperative (or, if you prefer, Jesus's "do as you would be done by").

Lesson - Jesus loves a Crag Swagger.
Result - we all go to heaven.

4) Crying over a lost nut is not sexy. You look like a whiny child. Stop it.

Lesson - Crag Swaggery makes you hotter.
Result - everybody has fulfilling and beautiful tantric sex.


NB. With regard to 4) above I am not referring to your original post which wasn't too whiny, but to "please retrieve my gear for me because I am too lazy" posters in general.

In reply to Wicamoi:

The other ethical justification would be that keeping the gear is a justified reward for undertaking a socially useful task.

More to the point if stuck gear got left all over the place it'd be hard to claim 'leave no trace' moral superiority over the sport climbers

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

And yet the retrieved gear is almost never worth keeping (or maybe I've just been unlucky). In spite of this I've known people give up all there original climbing plans at the merest possibility of gaining some swag.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Years ago when they were still almost cheating there was a well stuck original Friend Near the top of a route on left Hand crag at wyndcliffe. Everyone and his dog had tried to Free it in passing including us. It was in such a battered state would Probably not have been worth Retrieving anyway.

I do wonder if its still there Twenty odd years Later? Cant Remember the route. Pretty Central on crag, 2 pitch, about VS.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Great post! Linked to it on the lost/found stories thread I'm just posting

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


There we go! The nut is a reward for cleaning up after the incapable and incompetent, asking for it back is uncool.

If a pair of climbers start a multipitch route an hour after you and retrieve a nut that you had gotten stuck, would you ask them for it back?

In reply to Wicamoi:







Bingo.

In reply to Wicamoi:

You do write well!

I was almost going to wrap this up, after all it's the weekend, so I'm no longer in need of any distractions at work.

But..

In reply to FreshSlate:

As previously discussed...

If a pair of climbers had started an hour after us, it would have been dark and they would have been climbing into a snow storm. I would probably have been too busy organising their rescue to ask for the return of the nut.

Notwithstanding the previous suggestion, that it would have been better to abseil back into the storm, recover then nut and then await the arrival of the Ogwyn Valley MRT, I suggest that the sensible and competent thing to do was proceed up the route while weather and daylight allowed...and leave the little purple solider on the battlefield. I should know, I was there. Actually climbing!

Anyway the definition of 'abandoned', as detailed above, specifically states that a nut which is left behind 'because of temporary ill-fortune' has not been abandoned....and as we were overtaken by an unexpected and unseen change in the weather, I would argue that this particular piece of gear was not abandoned!

In fact, the definition of abandoned is quit narrow; 'it means you deliberately left it behind because you were either too lazy or too incompetent to retrieve it'. As we were neither incompetent nor lazy, the definition doesn't apply.

No doubt you will now announce that if you can't predict the weather with 100% accuracy, 100% of the time you're a muppet who lost face and blah blah blah.

But, before you place fingers to keyboard, I suggest you take a leaf from Wicamoi's book. he's managed to get his point across without accusing anyone of being incapable, incompetent or insufficiently humble. You should give it a go...anything else would be uncool.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


For the second time: neither I nor anyone else has suggested that! FFS.....

In reply to THE.WALRUS:




Haha, I have no interest in the nut what so ever but that is a pretty funny statement. It's Idwal Slabs not Cerro Torre. Believe it or not there are some climbers who could still get up a diff on a dark and stormy night, they may even enjoy it.


Amazing thread by the way, it's like a little Ukc soap opera.

In reply to FreshSlate:


Since I would actively try and return it to the person in question I would hardly object to being asked by the owner for it back and since we are in "do unto others..." terrain the reverse should hold.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Walrus: As for the exceptional 'circumstances caveat'...you seem to be suggesting that if I'd faffed about retrieving the nut as the daylight faded and the weather got worse and ended up needing to be rescued, I'd somehow be worthy of having it returned!

Robert Duran: Arguably.

In reply to deacondeacon:
Yeah fair point (s)....but they may have had to leave some gear bend in order to get off the slab safely, which would make them incompetent, right?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


Yes, if you had made that poor choice to try to retrieve it and ended up needing rescuing, but I certainly didn't suggest that you should have made that choice in the first place.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


No, no, no, you just don't get it do you? It is very bad form to ask for the nut back but if offered it back, you might choose to accept it with suitably grovelling humility. I assume you accept birthday presents thankfully, but don't go round asking for them.

In reply to Robert Durran:
So, logically, in the circumstances surrounding the loss of this cherished nut, as described in depth above:

The right decision was to leave it stuck in the crack and get on with the climb.

The loss does not fit with Wicamoi's definition of 'abandoned', as it wasn't deliberately left behind through laze or incompetence.

It does not, therefore, fall within the definition of crag swag.

And I can justifiably ask if the finder would consider it's return...without all of the name calling!?

Erm, case closed???

Anyway, that's-that. It's Friday night, FFS!

In reply to THE.WALRUS:



Yes. That is your call in the circumstances. There is a limit to how long anyone, however determined, is going to judge sensible to spend trying to exctract a nut.


I don't technically agree with Wicamoi's definition. You knowingly left it behind because you judged it not worth the effort or sensible in the circumstances to persevere with the attempted extraction. In my book that means you abandoned it.


I think it undoubtedly does, given that I think you undoubtedly abandoned it.


No. I think that, in the circumstances, the mild appellation "muppet" is about right.

In reply to Robert Durran:




So now we have a nit-picking on the definition of abandonment.

Given you have modified it to include "not sensible in the circumstances to persevere with the attempted extraction" - then how long must one persevere, and in what conditions, before gear transforms from legitimate swag to gear that one should return?

And who is the arbiter of that decision?

In reply to Tangler:



I have not modified my definition at all. I just don't quite agree with Wicamoi's definition.

There is no time limit. How long one pereseveres is entirely up to personal choice and judgement in the circumstances. If in the end you choose to abandon it then it becomes legitimate swag. It's really very simple.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

.but they may have had to leave some gear bend in order to get off the slab safely, which would make them incompetent, right?

Well no, don't put words in my mouth
. It was an off the cuff remark where you were assuming that climbing Idwal slabs in dark, snowy conditions would necessitate a rescue. For some it would, for others it wouldn't.

In reply to Robert Durran:




Ok.
So one should remain until one becomes injured and/or requires rescue in order to avoid gear becoming "legitimate swag"?

In reply to Tangler:


Yes, but that would be a monumental display of extreme muppetry far exceeding any breach of swag ethics. Any climber with any level of judgement at all would have accepted the sensible abandonment of the nut with good grace long before that happened.

In reply to Robert Durran:

So actually you mean anything left on the crag under any circumstances is swag.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Crikey - and there was me thinking that is exactly what happened. A sensible decision to abandon a nut with good grace, followed by a friendly post a couple of weeks later suggesting :-
"Has anyone found it? I wouldn't usually ask, but as Zero G have gone out of business I can't replace it.

Must be worth a pint, or something."


Not in the "lost and found" forum - as it was indeed not "lost", but in the rocktalk forum.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Useful definition of swag I found:

...money or goods taken by a thief or burglar.

In reply to anyone :

will a survey help ?

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RRNCP5X

In reply to Tangler:



No. Any good grace was lost by asking for it back.


Yes, I agree he loses a couple of muppet points for that decision.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Done

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


I actually always preferred to use the word "booty" rather than "swag", but I have slightly reluctantly adopted the seemingly universal "swag". Anyway, words mean different things according to context.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Damnation, Tangler's gone and bloody won it! And I was in the bloody shower!

Anyway. If the old-skool crag swaggers are divided over the definition if ‘abandonment’, they’re in trouble. Divide and conquer!

It would appear, that by Wicamoi's eloquent definition, I am not longer a muppet, and the missing, much loved, nut isn’t crag swag.

Given that r0x0r.wolfo threw his considerable intellect behind Wicamoi's definition, I’m home and clear with my fellow Mancunian, too.

Tangler has all be delivered the coupe-de-grace...all we need to do now is pin you down to your definition of ‘abandonment’ to establish if there are any circumstances in which a nut can ever be left stuck in a crag without the leaver becoming a muppet.

Careful now, I suspect you’re about to accuse pretty much anyone who pulled on a climbing harness of being a muppet.

Even yourself!

Lordy this is addictive. 10 minutes only. No more.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

That's not what I said is it?

I am asking would you ask for it back? Not a difficult question is it?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

It's nothing to do with the weather.

Your mistake was the not predicting that your inexperienced second would have to extract a nut at some point. You've took a lad up a climb who can't take a nut out and now you've lost a nut. Doesn't take a genius...

In reply to Robert Durran:


This is where the niceties of your reasoning start to break down.

It's okay to abandon gear and ask for it back if you get injured or need rescuing, it's not okay to ask for it back if you make the sensible decision to abandon it in order to get off the hill.

In short you are sayin abandon gear, quite literally, at your peril, for now you are in the mountain and the reasonable norms of societal behaviour are cast aside.....

(Leaving aside the entirely different issues of when is the sensible time to abandon it, bearing in mind the differing capabilities of individual climbers).

I would understand it if he had been particularly demanding, or had said "I couldn't get it back becuase I was too busy lying in bed and I couldn't be bothered" - but he didn't.
Instead a pretty chilled out post, offering a beer if anyone happened to have got it out, happened to be reading the internets and happened to fancy giving it back.
Met with criticism and a set of crag swag "ethics" which appear to hinge largely on your own rather dogmatic interpretation of what in most climbers is actually a pretty laissez-faire attitude.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I have made my definition of abandonment abundantly clear and I stick to it.

.....’ to establish if there are any circumstances in which a nut can ever be left stuck in a crag without the leaver becoming a muppet.

Oh dear, you really don't get it do you? Abandonment alone does not in itself (indeed in the majority of cases) constitute muppetry. ASKING FOR IT BACK IS THE MUPPETRY BIT, since it contravenes all long established norms of swag etiquette.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

This thread is nuts!

In reply to Jim Hamilton:



Awesome!

In reply to Tangler:


Basically, there's the next morning. You get up early and go fetch what you left, you can't do that from hospital.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Hardly. But for the weather, I would have abseiled down and collected the nut myself. It was pretty much entirely to do with the weather.

In reply to FreshSlate:


Really? You do climb outdoors don't you?

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


Ah, best to keep the second ignorant then, we shall not teach him the ways of taking out a nut, I'll just abseil after every pitch and take it out for him!

This is not a good tactic no matter what the weather.

In reply to Tangler:

No they don't.


Yes. That, in the circumstances, is basic compassion. Though it is possible to imagine rescues resulting from such appalling muppetry that they shouldn't get their gear back. Perhaps if someone spent so long trying to retrieve a stuck nut on the Idwal slabs that they got benighted and went hypothermic.


Absolutely. That's how the swag system works. You win some, you lose some.


The reasonable norms of climbing etiquette apply in the mountains. the swag system has always worked perfectly well as part of that etiquette.

In reply to FreshSlate:



I was going to reply, but it's quite clear from this post that you are just firing for effect.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, it's pretty difficult to 'get' because it doesn't make much sense, as Tangler has effectively pointed out...and can be further seen by the fact that NONE of the near 200 posters on this thread have actually expressed any support for the 'ethics' that you extoll. Not even r0x0r.wolfo or the eloquent Wicamoi.

So, for the sake of clarity, are there any circumstances under which someone who has left a piece of gear stuck in a crag ask for it back?

Or, is everyone who has ever posted a similar thread to mine, a muppet?

Again, I urge caution.

In reply to Tangler:


I was going to reply, but it's quite clear from this post that you are just firing for effect.

In reply to FreshSlate:


A stunning reply, if only for a demonstration that whilst you might be unable to construct an argument you can at least operate "cut'n'paste".

(You DID use cut'n'paste didn't you?)

In reply to Tangler:


Thanks.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Well, he's a beginner and, like all of us, he's still learning. He can't be expected to be as skilled as a more experienced climber at extracting gear.

That's nothing to do with what I explained to him before the climb, it's all about the experiential learning cycle..i.e. practise, time, experience and effort makes you better.

You should pay this some heed. Given that you've been arguing the toss for the best part of a couple of days, and haven't managed to make any headway whatsoever!

Time to stop digging?

In reply to Robert Durran:




I'm sure your swag system has worked perfectly well for you. Keep what you find, and screw the loser, especially if he dares to ask for it back.

I prefer a slightly more chilled out attitude towards other people's kit.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

This thread brings back fond memories of following a guide and a second up the Aiguille de l'M, he placed about two cams per pitch, and the second didn't know how to remove them.

Full of good intention, I racked up around 8 cams, but there's a lovely ledge just before the last pitch, in the sunshine, it was time for lunch, and a snooze while taking in the scenery.

Sadly, I never got the chance to return the cams.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


I'm not sure how many people have had to go abseil after their second to get gear out on a multipitch. It's not him I blame though.


If you're climbing with a inexperienced second you don't place tricky to remove gear, if the gear was not tricky to remove then you did a slack job of showing him to take gear out. Either way you've made a mistake, and you've now lost a nut for it. Take it on the chin.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


Yes. After the vast majority of rescues or accidents, and always if the gear belongs to the rescuers.


Yes, except after most rescues or accidents, and never if the gear belongs to the rescuers.

In reply to Robert Durran:



Why "the vast majority" and "most"? Why not "all"?

In reply to Tangler:

Yes, I've lost about as much as I've gained without ever wasting my own time and expense or anyone else's mailing nuts round the country.


Actually, I would probably return it if they asked suitably humbly. But they shouldn't have asked at all.

In reply to FreshSlate:

So, you expect a beginner to be as proficient as an experienced climber on first attempt. Really?

Does this apply to, say, bricklaying and carpentry, or just climbing?

Ridiculous.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:




You took this lad up a multipitch for his first climb in bad weather?

In reply to Tangler:


I think it is possible to imagine rescues being caused by such muppetry but without injury where, if the recued were not suitably humble, then the loss of the odd nut might be well deserved.

In reply to Robert Durran:
You're back on the slippery slope you were trying to avoid earlier; better to faff around recovering a nut and end up in bother than get on with the climb while we still can.

Anyway, I think we've just about got to the bottom of the problem...you prefer it she people are humble towards you, and don't answer back.

Could this possibly be all about EGO!

In reply to Robert Durran:


As judged by...?

In reply to FreshSlate:

Nope, the weather was fine when we set off, as previously and repeatedly mentioned.

Sometimes, the weather just catches you out. One of these days, it might even happen to you.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


It's winter, it's wales, it rains, it goes dark early. You were probably slowed down by the absolute novice you took up, but thats your fault, not his.

Lucky you only lost a nut.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I believe that Robert is using the old maths teacher adage that it doesn't matter if your final answer is wrong, so long as you show your working...

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


No, the exact opposite! I have made that perfectly clear. FFS.... you really are being a bit dim now. In fact you are making a bit of a muppet of yourself.


No. It's about preserving a system which works perfectly well. Anyway if everyone posted on UKC every time they abandoned a nut, there wouldn't be time for anyone to read all the posts and the UKC servers would probably melt down. Fortunately such muppets are presumably still in a small minority and their muppetry should be nipped in the bud.

In reply to FreshSlate:



Was he an absolute novice? Was it his first outdoor climb? Were you there to make the judgements you have just made?

In reply to Tangler:


The judgement of the person who retrieves the gear. Most people are capable of common sense and compassion I would have thought.

In reply to Tangler:

In reply to FreshSlate:

Well, fortunately for the long a proud tradition of British mountaineering, we're not all fair weather climbers.

I take it you only climb with experienced seconds, in the height of summer, when there isn't a cloud in the sky and it's not dark until midnight. Or at MCC.

Lame.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:



Don't lash out. I hope you enjoyed the diff more than the second you dragged up it.

In reply to Robert Durran:


So an entirely arbitrary judgement then.


Yep. My common sense and compassion suggests that if someone has lost something I'll take reasonable steps to get it back to them.

Can't see a lot of compassion in saying that you should be ashamed to even ask for it back.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I refer you to malky_c's amusing post. You will get points for showing your working, but you can't expect me to get the un-gettable.

Strange that you should want to preserve an archaic tradition that involves climbers blowing smoke up your arse as payment for the safe return of their property!

Sound's a bit like serf-tax from the middle ages.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Actually, as a beginner he enjoyed climbing on Idwal Slabs far more than me.

Lash out? Really?

In reply to FreshSlate:




I took "first attempt" to be in response to your post bemoaning the inability of someone to grasp something straightaway.

I am sure the Walrus can clarify his level of "beginnerness" as well as the level of risk that leads you to suggest that he was lucky only to lose a nut.

In reply to Tangler:

In the case of an accident, I think most people would take active steps to return the gear.

In the case of a simple stuck nut, I think most people, incuding myself, would find it quite hard to refuse a request for the return of the gear. The asking, therefore, undermines a system which has always worked very well and fairly; that is why it is poor form.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:


It's not a matter of payment. See my last post above.

In reply to Tangler:



Does it need clarifying? Can't remove gear, struggles on a diff. Was he a client of yours Walrus?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Though obviously what you said was "most accidents" where "most" in your definition equals an entirely arbitrary judgement as to whether the retreiver considers the accident to be worthy enough.


So because your conscience indicates to you that you really should give the nut back, you would rather it wasn't asked for so that you don't feel guilty...?

In reply to Tangler:


No, because I can't force someone to be part of a the swag system, however time honoured and well proven it is, against their will. In the end, the system works by common consent and is not the law of the land.

In reply to FreshSlate:


I think there are quite a few people that might struggle on a diff in big boots in the rain and yet not be the same "absolute novices" that you appear to think they are.

Not sure of the relevance of the client part, as it was mentioned he got down fine and he enjoyed himself. I thought that was part of the general idea of doing stuff in the mountains.

In reply to Tangler:

I'm not sure why asking if he's a client is making a statement on the "general idea of doing stuff in the mountains"?

In reply to FreshSlate:
Nope, not a client. He was an old school friend.

He's only done a handful of rock-climbs, single and multi-pitch, but he's very experienced in the mountains, and has completed numerous high altitude trekking peaks around the world.

That the reason we went for an easy (pretty much) road side diff...you've got to start somewhere, and there's no easier place to start than Ogwyn.

That's it for now. I really am going down the pub, I'll deal with the rest of the hate mail in the morning! You should go too, r0x0r.wolfo, just remember to take your ID.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Your swag system certainly isn't the law of the land

Your reply doesn't really explain the prick of conscience that you describe though : -
"In the case of a simple stuck nut, I think most people, incuding myself, would find it quite hard to refuse a request for the return of the gear."

If you don't think your swag system is justified and would be supported by the vast majority of climbers then don't use it. If you do, then stand by your principles. As the celebrated meerkats say "Simples"

I look forward to seeing the result of Jim Hamilton's survey

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RRNCP5X

In reply to FreshSlate:


Fair enough - I meant it as an indication that - if he was a client he clearly had a good time.

Why did you ask? What is its relevance to whatever point you are trying to make?

In reply to Tangler:


I shall.


It will certainly provide some amusement, but, either way, will certainly need to be taken with a large pinch of salt due to the obviouy self selected potential sample bias.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Good. As will I. Don't let the prickling of your conscience bother you


I am not sure what makes you think that the users of UKC should have particularly different views to climbers not using UKC.

You have been able to explain your views and I'm sure that most rational people can make a judgement based on the strength of your arguments as compared to mine or anyone else's on this thread.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:




Okay. So you wern't paid? Doesn't sound too much like a beginner to be. Had you posted this in lost and found you wouldn't have opened this can of worms. The crag swag debate is an old one, looks as if it's the first time you have come across it. Which is surprising or has it only now become an issue when you're on the losing end?

Ah I remember the last time I was at Ogwyn, shiny new torque nut, gave it to my mate who was building his rack. Once got a nut stuck in a quarry, spent 20 minutes but couldn't get it out. Decided it wasn't worth it, went home, came back a few days later and it was gone, fair play to whoever got it out. Got better at removing and placing gear after that.


Ouch!

This is crag swag:

"Just to let you all know, I managed to get a number 3 nut stuck in the traverse of The Blurter today. If you manage to retrieve it at all then you are very welcome to it. I don't think it wanted to live with me anymore anyway!"

All Robert is saying is that this attitude > Yours.

In reply to Tangler:


I won't, because I won't have it on my conscience to have forced anyone to be part of a system against their will (however much I think they mioght be guilty of muppetry).

In reply to FreshSlate:



Yes, I think that sums things up nicely.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

can't wait to read your next episode of losing gear , especially when your in the Atlas mts.

for f*ck sake don't post you've lost your bog roll , anyhow good effort in keeping this total shite going and have a good trip.

buy you a pint if you nick any twidlet ice projects.

In reply to Robert Durran:

you're just ahead! 11 votes to 9

In reply to Jim Hamilton:


I won't count my nuts until my second has got them out.

.....ASKING FOR IT BACK IS THE MUPPETRY BIT, since it contravenes all long established norms of swag etiquette.

I don't want to get involved in this, but I do want to add one more voice that says "I don't recognise your norms, I don't want any part of them and I don't see why behaviour on the mountain should depart at all from common courtesy.". The norm you are advocating strikes me as a cheap form of dishonesty, nothing more. We have the internet now. It is easy to ask for stuff back and easy to tell others that you have found something. I have done both. Given this, keeping other peoples' property without making reasonable efforts to to return it amounts to theft.

In reply to mbh:
A left a nut in a route in a quarry once. Couldn't get it out, someone else did.

Should he be charged with theft? He didn't make a thread about it on UKC.

Should I be charged with littering? Leaving scrap metal around?

Is he a good samaritan for wrestling that nut out so others can better enjoy the route or is he a common criminal?

He can keep the nut for doing his bit clearing the route of junk for me. I see far too many old fixed cams and rubbish. But it might be preferable to leave them in so the fuzz don't come a knocking. Do you think Walrus drove back to Wales to look for it?

In reply to mbh:

Good..... oh, it seems you do.....


I just found this post of yours on another thread:

"I quite like it when gangs of kids go by on their BMXs, without lights or brakes, one leg straight, one leg bent sideways (why do they do that?). It's part of the urban environment and suggests that all is normal and ticking along".

So you condone downright dangerous illegality when it suits your own twisted view of street culture, but object to the ebb and flow of the odd stuck nut changing hands.

Muppet.

In reply to mbh:

When is your duty to try and return crag swag discharged? Is posting on UKC enough? Should you widen the search for the former owner to include other climbing forums? Should that include fora in Europe, America? - we climbers get around. Perhaps the only safe option is to take that no.3 Rock you've retrieved straight down to the police station, you wouldn't want to risk being accused of theft.

Personally I prefer the widely accepted pre-Internet etiquette of "you win a few, you lose a few". When I leave a piece of gear I prefer not to embarrass myself by asking for its return on an Internet forum.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not really good form to go trawling through someone's old posts looking for ammunition.

In reply to EarlyBird:

When is your duty to try and return crag swag discharged?

In this case, the answer to you query is enshrined in UK Law under the Theft Act of 1968:

Basic definition of theft.

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.

and;

A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking **reasonable steps**.

Given that listing the missing item on an internet chatroom is a perfectly reasonable step, it would appear that crag swaggers have been breaking the law for some time.

I await howels of outrage, and cries of 'muppet'.

Where's OffDuty?

In reply to EarlyBird:

Any yes, it could be argued that leaving a nut behind fulfils the cirteria of UK littering law:

It is an offence to drop litter in any place open to the air, including private land, and land covered by water.

But, I would suggest, that whoever left the nut behind would escape prosecution under the doctrine of 'spirit of the act' - i.e. that the act was invoked to stop people dropping rubbish in the street, not to proscecute climbers who try in vain to remove stuck gear.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Oh, another Muppet! There's a suprise. Are you really 47 years old? Really?

You're trying to argue the 'ethics' 'attitude' angle, whilst trawling through past postings to dig up irrelevant ammunition to support your (increasingly surreal) argument and calling anyone who disagrees with you a muppet!

Time to grow up.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

If you're going to resort to law, then consider this, an accurate reflection of the law taken from the CPS legal guidance pages:

"Abandoned property

In order to be capable of being stolen, property must, at the time of appropriation, 'belong to another'. If property has been abandoned then it has no owner. It cannot be stolen. "

In reply to Siward:
Fair point. But, if the person who lost the nut has advertised for it's return at the time of it's appropriation, the missing nut does, infact, have an owner who can easily be identified by taking the prescribed 'reasonable steps'.

The dishonesty element of the offence of theft might, therefore, be made out. But who cares?

Like the rest of this thread, it's all irrelevant anyway. I'm not actually suggesting the we invoke the Theft Act and have a judge decide the rights and wrong of crag swagging. In all likihood, any prosecution of a crag swagger would fail on the grounds that it 'is not in the public interest' to prosecute an otherwise upstanding member of the community for freeing a lost nut from captivity. I was just answering EarlyBirds question.

That said, I'm fairly confident that certain posters on this threat could be detained underinately under S.136 of the Mental Health act, based on some of the gumpf that's been posted on this thread.

And I'm not entirely sure that I would escape the men in white coats, all things considered.

In reply to Siward:



It wasn't abandoned. He was imply pre-equipping the route for a repeat ascent at some future point...

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

+1 to that

Poor show Robert,

Cheers

Gregor

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

I think the last few posts have illustrated why we don't want to get the law involved at all. Instead let's rely on common decency - we haven't got much choice.

I'm afraid your former nut falls squarely under my definition of "deliberately left behind because too lazy or too incompetent to retrieve it."

I don't mean any disrespect by that. I would certainly have left the nut behind given similar circumstances. But the fact remains that you walked away from the nut of your own volition. You were not prepared to put in the necessary effort to get the nut back (=too lazy), or you were concerned that you could not do it safely (=incompetent - although with hindsight it would have been wiser if I'd said 'not competent' as it sounds less like a value judgement).

Accidents are allowed as an exception under crag swag rules, probably because it was more than likely that the former owner of the nut could be relocated, and because the poor lad in a splint naturally encourages we tender-hearted humans to present him with a gift. Lost and found forums are, I accept and regret, undermining the crag swag ethic. Do not allow yourself to imagine that this is somehow a good thing. All it will achieve is to make the redistribution of abandoned gear much more time-consuming, and slightly less egalitarian.

It is not perhaps surprising that novice climbers will think of crag swag as somehow dishonest, but given more experience they will generally realise why the system evolved, and how it is in fact a very fair system - fairer, more appropriate, and a great deal less hassle than the law of the land/lost and found forums.

Robert and I will continue to follow crag swag however much you attempt to characterise us as dishonest, because, actually, we know that we are honest. We won't prosper from doing so - we'll win some and lose some - so there's no need to get sniffy about it. And I encourage you to join us, I encourage all honest mountaineers to join us, because the more people that join us the fairer it is for everyone. If you don't join us, if follow the lost and found forum route, you will increase your chance of getting your own particular nut back, yes, but you'll also open a loop hole for the dishonest to exploit. The dishonest will ask for their gear back in the lost and found forums, but they won't advertise the gear they've found. Cheats will prosper - but they can't prosper under crag swag law.

Unfortunately neither crag swag nor the lost and found forums can do anything about proper thieves - they have to face the law in the normal way.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

Not really. There's a lot of them about.


No


I have. I'm now 49.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Just exposing hypocrisy. I don't see a problem with that.
Anyway, it took about 30 seconds - hardly trawling.

In reply to Wicamoi:

This would be find, except you and Robert don't agree on the rules of the Crag Swag ethic.

Given the circumstances surrounding the loss of the nut, even Robert Durran, that stalwart Crag Swagger, has accepted that the compatent thing to do was climb on, rather than absailing back down to collect it.

My behaviour cannot, therfore, fall under the 'not competent' strand of the crag swag ethic.

It sounds like you're accusing anyone who has used the lost and found forum under these circumstances as being dishonest cheat...alienating the voting public will not assist in Jim Hamiltion's all important on line survey!

As previously mentioned, I didn't suggest getting the law involved, I merely answered a question with regards to the low on theft.

In reply to Wicamoi:

I think there are two things going on here.

1/ Debate over crag-swag ethics which, despite Robert's assertions, are not a well established and understood tradition (as shown by his not agreeing with your definitions of abandonment etc)

2/ Should Walrus have made his original post.

I think the crag swag business is open to some debate but it doesn't really apply to Walrus's situation as it was a rather mild appeal giving anyone who may have found said gear (that is almost certainly not worth having) the option of getting in touch about it and, presumably, coming to an amicable arrangement that would not leave the finder disadvantaged.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Agreed. Given that everyone who disagrees with you automatically becomes a muppet...there are indeed rather a lot of them about.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I always think the hypocrisy angle is best not employed in a debate of ideas as the point made should be taken on its own merit (or lack of it) rather than the merits of the originator.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


No, but it may well be becoming less well understood (as evidenced in this thread). However, I seriously believe that it is a good, community spirited convention which has always worked perfectly well. Certainly worth preserving and promoting.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Interestingly enough, I am of the opinion that The Walrus should not have made his origional, mild mannered appeal...although not for the reasons that the Crag Swaggers may hope.

It cost me a hour of pub time last night, and I'm not far-off getting a thick ear from Mrs Walrus as a consiquence of time spent posting pointless messages when I could be treating her to a breakfast of raw fish and seal blubber.

As you say, the ethics of crag swagging aren't as well established as the old skool might like to think; otherwise they'd be in agreement over the detail of the ethics, and they wouldn't be facing a barrage of bemused disagreement.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:

You are, quite skilfully, confusing two different things, just making them appear the same by re-using a word.

Yes, the 'competent' thing to do was to climb on - we can all agree on that - but that has no bearing on whether or not you left the nut behind because of laziness or non competence to retrieve it. In fact, your correct choice, to abandon the nut, simply demonstrates that you were not competent to retrieve it. You took a gamble with the time and the weather - you lost. You're man enough to take it on the chin.

I am certainly not accusing the people who post on lost and found forums of being cheats. Most of them post their 'lost nut' simply because they want their nut back (I encourage them to take it on the chin too, and learn not to make the same mistake again). Those who post their 'found nut' are clearly honourable and admirable human beings, acting out of a sense of decency - albeit misguided. Some of them may also get a kick out of being seen to be so decent, but who could hold that against them?

But if you were a slightly cheaty type, you'd do much better under the lost and found system than under the crag swag system.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

1. Robert and I do not disagree about the definition of abandonment - that was merely a bit of casuistry on Walrus's part.

2. I haven't made a comment on this. It's up to Walrus what he posts.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
Still going eh?

A stuck nut simply can never be regarded as theft unless you made it clear to anyone likely to find it you intend to return and get it. Some one above rhetorically asked exactly how many places would you need to notify other than UKC. Oddly some strange people walk climb and do other stuff rather than ever use the internet. Handing low value objects into the police station could work for some but its clearly stupid as it wastes police time and money.

As a top tip one can carry specially designed plastic bags containing a card with ones name address and phone number and a legend "Muppet apologizes but..."; alongside a pre-paid self addressed envelope taped round the nut to stop it becoming litter. Of course as a responsible chap when taking begginers up Ordinary Route on a winter day (which yes I've done on a few occasions) if one wanted to recover the nut on the first belay, one knows one is always easily good enough to solo the easy grade rock on pitch one (even if wet, with one hand tied behind ones back), possibly if its getting very dark using the head torch one always needs in winter, but one wouldn't always do that as its a bit showy and the beginner might get cold and the pub will be more attractive and it would so spoil the potential subsequent fun on UKC.

The mental health stuff you said is below you... it really is best to stop name calling. I'd recommend reading the Black Dog thread on UKB. One in four of us will have severe mental health problems at some time in our life and this afflicts many climbers and isn't really very funny (unlike occasional muppetry which is even more common and nearly always is funny)

In the meantime there have been a few gems on this thread so I thank you again. It's been so good I'll happily buy you (or any other major contributor) a pint for free if you ever see me and remind me. We can celebrate internet web forums and how they enhance the quieter bits of our lives. That is if you can take a joke or two without resentment. I still genuinely hope you get the nut back, its extra special now after all.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Your top of my pint list. I must admit I'd not noticed your posts here before: what kind of muppet am I ?

In reply to Wicamoi:


Sorry it was actually Robert who said he didn't entirely agree with your definitions (in a reply to The.Walrus so long ago...)
The second bit was generally about the forum and not aimed at you.

In fact the answer to should the post have been made is clear:

For or against it would have robbed us of a lot of entertainment if it hadn't been posted!

In reply to Offwidth:

Thanks! I agree with your point about the meaning that is now attached to this particular piece of gear. I'd make an exception and return it to him - he's earned it.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


That's true, but Robert only said that because he's been cleverly misled by WALRUS.

In reply to Wicamoi:


Those Walrus's; who'd have known they were so cunning!

In reply to Wicamoi:
Thanks. I don't think I've ever been called clever before (let alnoe cunning)...I'll chalk that up as a major compliment, lost in a sea of light hearted critisism!

In reply to Offwidth:

Sounds fabulous.

Consider yourself owed a pint, also. It always tastes nicer when it's been hard earned!

Given the special significance that has been placed upon this particular crappy, battered rusting Zero G I can but hope that one day it will be reunited with it crappy, rusting, battered pals.