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In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Is this the hardest grit ascent by a woman?
With all the debate about grit being overgraded and not as hard as us Brits make out it would be interesting to hear what she has to say about it.
With all the debate about grit being overgraded and not as hard as us Brits make out it would be interesting to hear what she has to say about it.
In reply to Adam Lincoln: seriously impressive accent. e7, a woman and only 5 ft ish! wow
( woefully wishes i could be that good one day.... doubt it! )
( woefully wishes i could be that good one day.... doubt it! )
In reply to Adders:
Although according to 666DENVER666 E6 should be possible by anybody.
Make E7 look a bit easy if you take that context.
Although according to 666DENVER666 E6 should be possible by anybody.
Make E7 look a bit easy if you take that context.
In reply to Al Urker:
Should add, that I'm taking nothing away from LR here.
And she's a bit nice to look at.
Should add, that I'm taking nothing away from LR here.
And she's a bit nice to look at.
In reply to Al Urker: dont tell me u actually believe what sim says ? ( denver )
id be happy for life if i could do a b8 or a e1!( not that id do a route anyway )
well done Lisa if you read this
id be happy for life if i could do a b8 or a e1!( not that id do a route anyway )
well done Lisa if you read this
In reply to Al Urker:
If you're into scarily ripped women......
The only one worse than her has gotta be Tiffany Campbell in Rampage. Give these women a bikini, a shave and pack 'em off to Miss Universe!
> (In reply to Al Urker)
>
>
> And she's a bit nice to look at.
>
>
> And she's a bit nice to look at.
If you're into scarily ripped women......
The only one worse than her has gotta be Tiffany Campbell in Rampage. Give these women a bikini, a shave and pack 'em off to Miss Universe!
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
E7 is impressive to us punters whoever did them. Just curious, its the first time I've seen the qualifier of 'on natural grit' used - is it considered a greater achievement than the same grade on quarried grit (Masters Edge) ?
PS I am not knocking the achievement, just curious as to why it was felt significant to phrase the claim this way.
E7 is impressive to us punters whoever did them. Just curious, its the first time I've seen the qualifier of 'on natural grit' used - is it considered a greater achievement than the same grade on quarried grit (Masters Edge) ?
PS I am not knocking the achievement, just curious as to why it was felt significant to phrase the claim this way.
In reply to Carnage: think were actually talking bout her climbing achievement.
Does it matter what she looks like, dont hear people commenting on mens looks when they do a hard route.
Does it matter what she looks like, dont hear people commenting on mens looks when they do a hard route.
In reply to GrahamD: coudl be it's just a way of upping her profile for the sponsors...Airlie at least was there long before this ascent
wouldn't look as good if they said 'LR climbs E7, it's been done before'...
wouldn't look as good if they said 'LR climbs E7, it's been done before'...
In reply to Simon:
ooo, I contest that, I most certainly don't read FHM, or maxim, or GQ, or anything else similar whose title escapes me.... !
ooo, I contest that, I most certainly don't read FHM, or maxim, or GQ, or anything else similar whose title escapes me.... !
In reply to Adders:
Er, no.
I think she looks well fit.
And I don't mind the scarily ripped look. I don't mind many different looks come to that!
And how many times have you heard someone commenting on the nature of a male climbers back when they are climbing? I've done it!
E7 is about two grades beyond what I think I could ever get to even if I trained hard, did more climbing in, etc. therefore it's beyond comprehension for me. So I'm impressed. But then again, there's a lot of overhype about the difficulty of grit.
Er, no.
I think she looks well fit.
And I don't mind the scarily ripped look. I don't mind many different looks come to that!
And how many times have you heard someone commenting on the nature of a male climbers back when they are climbing? I've done it!
E7 is about two grades beyond what I think I could ever get to even if I trained hard, did more climbing in, etc. therefore it's beyond comprehension for me. So I'm impressed. But then again, there's a lot of overhype about the difficulty of grit.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
<<<<<<<<< WHOOSH >>>>>>>>>
The sound of that particular bit of daft humour passing overhead...=)
Anyway. Respect to her for onsighting E5 (or harder, is the Rockfax downgrade correct?). And she has pretty fingernails from what I remember in the bouldering pics (although probably no longer after Moonshine)
<<<<<<<<< WHOOSH >>>>>>>>>
The sound of that particular bit of daft humour passing overhead...=)
Anyway. Respect to her for onsighting E5 (or harder, is the Rockfax downgrade correct?). And she has pretty fingernails from what I remember in the bouldering pics (although probably no longer after Moonshine)
In reply to Fiend:
Well, you never know
Well, you never know
In reply to GrahamD:
Just trying to differentiate from Miss Anderson's ascent of Master's, though maybe it would have been better to acknowledge this in the news item. I'm not saying that it's any more or less significant, but it is a 'first' nonetheless.
> (In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor)
>
Just curious, its the first time I've seen the qualifier of 'on natural grit' used - is it considered a greater achievement than the same grade on quarried grit (Masters Edge) ?
>
>
> PS I am not knocking the achievement, just curious as to why it was felt significant to phrase the claim this way.
> PS I am not knocking the achievement, just curious as to why it was felt significant to phrase the claim this way.
Just trying to differentiate from Miss Anderson's ascent of Master's, though maybe it would have been better to acknowledge this in the news item. I'm not saying that it's any more or less significant, but it is a 'first' nonetheless.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:Just wait til alex(bmc) gets his photos posted! Says hes got some awesome ones Cant wait Think shes gorgeous too!
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Top effort even if it was top roped first! definitely a step forward for women on grit.
In reply to Carnage:
She bouldered with me, Anni and Mick when we were in Bishop last April and she came across as modest, friendly and unassuming, but definitely not "scarily ripped". Anyway, this is totally irrelevant to her success on White Lines, which goes without saying as bloody impressive.
> If you're into scarily ripped women......
She bouldered with me, Anni and Mick when we were in Bishop last April and she came across as modest, friendly and unassuming, but definitely not "scarily ripped". Anyway, this is totally irrelevant to her success on White Lines, which goes without saying as bloody impressive.
In reply to l applat:
I'm surprised that they allowed women to climb above VS in those parts, being close to(in?) Yorkshire and all. Much muttering and flat caps in pubs at this I'll warrant.
"how dare she show up our lads" etc
I'm surprised that they allowed women to climb above VS in those parts, being close to(in?) Yorkshire and all. Much muttering and flat caps in pubs at this I'll warrant.
"how dare she show up our lads" etc
In reply to Stuart S:
Ill second that having met her. No scary ripples whatsoever, just one hell of a good climber. I say what she's done is fantastic and she deserves all credit for such an amazing achievement.
Ill second that having met her. No scary ripples whatsoever, just one hell of a good climber. I say what she's done is fantastic and she deserves all credit for such an amazing achievement.
In reply to Ian Hill:
The main difference of course being that Airlie is very familiar with grit Lisa is not. A very good effort.
The main difference of course being that Airlie is very familiar with grit Lisa is not. A very good effort.
In reply to Billy De Kid: Don't talk crap. Airlie did Masters about 10 years ago and she had done hardly anything on grit at the time. Lisa also hasn't done much on grit.
Lets stop trying to knock someone over someone elses ascent of another route.
Airlie doing Masters was brillaint, Lisa doing White Lines is brilliant.
Lets stop trying to knock someone over someone elses ascent of another route.
Airlie doing Masters was brillaint, Lisa doing White Lines is brilliant.
In reply to Billy De Kid:
Apparently, Lisa has actually done quite a bit on grit - including lots of gnarly E1 cracks and the like. She's been over here a few times in recent years.
Apparently, Lisa has actually done quite a bit on grit - including lots of gnarly E1 cracks and the like. She's been over here a few times in recent years.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Which is more than most E7 headpointers manage!! She done Sentinel yet??
> including lots of gnarly E1 cracks and the like
Which is more than most E7 headpointers manage!! She done Sentinel yet??
In reply to Fiend:
Sentinel no, but she has done Trident on Wimberry! Which from all accounts she found more of a struggle than Consolation Prize!
Sentinel no, but she has done Trident on Wimberry! Which from all accounts she found more of a struggle than Consolation Prize!
In reply to anon:
Point taken although it didn't have to be rammed down my throat.
Point taken although it didn't have to be rammed down my throat.
In reply to GrahamD:
This 'natural grit' thing was invented about three or four years when other women started getting a mere two grades behind what Airlie did all those years ago, and the mags wanted an excuse for a few news stories. Plus reflecting the fact that loads of women have done London Wall.
This 'Airlie was brilliant', 'Lisa is brilliant too' thing is all very well. But the fact is Airlie was well ahead of her time in doing Masters way back when. Lisa doing White Lines - well, I haven't done it, so I can't comment on the upgrade, but punter women have done natural grit E6 a year or two back. This isn't anywhere as significant an ascent as Airlie's, and it would be a shame if fluffiness were allowed to obscure that fact.
This 'natural grit' thing was invented about three or four years when other women started getting a mere two grades behind what Airlie did all those years ago, and the mags wanted an excuse for a few news stories. Plus reflecting the fact that loads of women have done London Wall.
This 'Airlie was brilliant', 'Lisa is brilliant too' thing is all very well. But the fact is Airlie was well ahead of her time in doing Masters way back when. Lisa doing White Lines - well, I haven't done it, so I can't comment on the upgrade, but punter women have done natural grit E6 a year or two back. This isn't anywhere as significant an ascent as Airlie's, and it would be a shame if fluffiness were allowed to obscure that fact.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I wasn' try to compare the ascents I was trying, in what you have taken to be a slightly fluffy manner, that the tit who was trying to do down Airlie was, well. being a tit. I wasn't trying to compare Airlie & Lisa or their ascents. They are both really good climbers and mates of mine.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Did she use a stack of mattresses as a big crash pad, or mats as protection? I remember airlie showing a slide in a talk once and the stack was quite considerable.
At the risk of sounding like fiend is this perhaps the first female grit E7 headpoint without mats?
Did she use a stack of mattresses as a big crash pad, or mats as protection? I remember airlie showing a slide in a talk once and the stack was quite considerable.
At the risk of sounding like fiend is this perhaps the first female grit E7 headpoint without mats?
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I seem to remember the picture showing at least 3 mattresses in a stack, maybe more, but maybe I am wrong.
She made a joke how she'd been saying to people that it was just a little mattress and almost convinced herself, but then she found the photo...
Anyone else at the kendal film festival 2 (?) years ago with a better memory?
I seem to remember the picture showing at least 3 mattresses in a stack, maybe more, but maybe I am wrong.
She made a joke how she'd been saying to people that it was just a little mattress and almost convinced herself, but then she found the photo...
Anyone else at the kendal film festival 2 (?) years ago with a better memory?
In reply to Matt: the impressive thing is that Airlie did E7 on grit so long ago that it was before bouldering mats were invented...
In reply to Ian Hill: why cant everyone just have the balls to say well done lisa without being pedantic and comparing her to others?
this isnt a sexist remark but e7 for a woman is a fantastic achievementand deserves recognition.
this isnt a sexist remark but e7 for a woman is a fantastic achievementand deserves recognition.
In reply to Adders: yeah she has done well, no probs with that...personally I'm impressed with anyone that can get up trad E7...but putting it forward as a 'first' is unfair to Airlie that's all...
In reply to Ian Hill: fair point Ian i agree with you.
In reply to Adders: Airlie had one mattress with her I thought. So what, have any of you seen the lob from Masters Edge, I watched Mark Leach take the maximum lob, christ he was in the air for ages.
In reply to graeme alderson:
Thats what i thought, just the one. It strapped to her roof on her car, just....
Was on a series on channel 4 ages ago. Pennine Rock i think
Thats what i thought, just the one. It strapped to her roof on her car, just....
Was on a series on channel 4 ages ago. Pennine Rock i think
In reply to Adam Lincoln: yeah I remember some film of her carrying it in...dwarfed underneath it...
In reply to Ian Hill: And she fell off going for the shot hole, so it was a wise choice!!
In reply to Adders:
>this isnt a sexist remark but e7 for a woman is a fantastic achievementand
I disagree. It strikes me as both a sexist and a patronising remark. E7 by a woman was achieved over ten years ago, and on-sighting E6 (harder) some while before that.And of course Lucy Creamer has on-sighted E7. Taking headpointing as being two grades easier than on-sighting, headpointing E7 is at the same level as Catherine Destivelle achieved in, I think, 1981, though I stand to be corrected. So women headpointing E7 per se is not exactly a ‘magnificent achievement’.
Having said that, this particular ascent is a pretty damned fine effort given that Lisa R is not a local (regular visitor or not) and this is not really her game (whether Bishop has highballs or not). Moreover from what one hears White Lines is rather on the hard side. So I take my hat off to her personally.
>this isnt a sexist remark but e7 for a woman is a fantastic achievementand
I disagree. It strikes me as both a sexist and a patronising remark. E7 by a woman was achieved over ten years ago, and on-sighting E6 (harder) some while before that.And of course Lucy Creamer has on-sighted E7. Taking headpointing as being two grades easier than on-sighting, headpointing E7 is at the same level as Catherine Destivelle achieved in, I think, 1981, though I stand to be corrected. So women headpointing E7 per se is not exactly a ‘magnificent achievement’.
Having said that, this particular ascent is a pretty damned fine effort given that Lisa R is not a local (regular visitor or not) and this is not really her game (whether Bishop has highballs or not). Moreover from what one hears White Lines is rather on the hard side. So I take my hat off to her personally.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: well john the last thing id expect was for you to agree with me.
like it or not women and mens acheivements are different. its biological.
why is it the best male sprinters are faster than the best female sprinter? not cause the female isnt as good, its a biological fact.
now all im saying is for anyone an e7 is fantastic, especially for a woman. yes women have done e7's before blah blah blah the point is it deserves some recognition.
dont worry john i expect back lash from you, yours in waiting
like it or not women and mens acheivements are different. its biological.
why is it the best male sprinters are faster than the best female sprinter? not cause the female isnt as good, its a biological fact.
now all im saying is for anyone an e7 is fantastic, especially for a woman. yes women have done e7's before blah blah blah the point is it deserves some recognition.
dont worry john i expect back lash from you, yours in waiting
In reply to graeme alderson:
Chipped her tooth - Ouch!
Chipped her tooth - Ouch!
In reply to Adders:
kind of agree with john there, or at least want to agree with him not having any evidence to hand, but on the other hand despite the ethics of firsts in reporting climbing achievements etc, more reporting needs to be done for women's climbing, to encourage more women to up their game. So I feel it is good to report this, even if loads of others are quietly doing e6s all over the place.
kind of agree with john there, or at least want to agree with him not having any evidence to hand, but on the other hand despite the ethics of firsts in reporting climbing achievements etc, more reporting needs to be done for women's climbing, to encourage more women to up their game. So I feel it is good to report this, even if loads of others are quietly doing e6s all over the place.
In reply to Becky: id love to agree with him Becky, but i find it bollocks that male/female grades are equal.( not sayying john said that exactly )
that report of that woman ( cant remember her name ) who did brad pitt v10, recently in climber had the smallest article ever! why? how many woman ( and men to some degree ) do u know who can do brad pitt! and all she got was 2 lines in climber.
that report of that woman ( cant remember her name ) who did brad pitt v10, recently in climber had the smallest article ever! why? how many woman ( and men to some degree ) do u know who can do brad pitt! and all she got was 2 lines in climber.
In reply to graeme alderson, adam etc:
She definetely showed a photo of it and made a joke about it. I'm certain it was not just one, I know others were at the festival, someone must remember the talk and be able to confirm this. I seem to remember it made seb's futon look pretty amature.
I'm not making this point to cause arguments just repeating what I'm certain she said during her lecture. Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near it even with those gladiator crash pads on offer in the wall forum!
She definetely showed a photo of it and made a joke about it. I'm certain it was not just one, I know others were at the festival, someone must remember the talk and be able to confirm this. I seem to remember it made seb's futon look pretty amature.
I'm not making this point to cause arguments just repeating what I'm certain she said during her lecture. Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near it even with those gladiator crash pads on offer in the wall forum!
In reply to graeme alderson: I saw that lob. If he had had a mattress, he would have ended up lying on it!
In reply to Adders:
>why cant everyone just have the balls to say well done lisa without being pedantic and comparing her to others?
To be fair, most people who have posted have said well done to Lisa. Climbing E7 is unimaginable to most of us. What IS being debated is the way the report is written which seems to ascribe more historical significance than it may warrant. Punters like myself rely on this kind of report to build up our sense of history of climbing so it helps if the historical significance is made clear.
>why cant everyone just have the balls to say well done lisa without being pedantic and comparing her to others?
To be fair, most people who have posted have said well done to Lisa. Climbing E7 is unimaginable to most of us. What IS being debated is the way the report is written which seems to ascribe more historical significance than it may warrant. Punters like myself rely on this kind of report to build up our sense of history of climbing so it helps if the historical significance is made clear.
In reply to Adders:
On the other hand, when Katherine Schirrmacher on-sighted The Knock, something which well over a thousand men must have done, including someone I know on their first day out on the grit, she was on the front cover of at least one magazine and interviewed in others. Not that it wasn't a good achievement personally - it was; I can certainly remember being pretty thrilled when I did the route (a strangely underreported ascent by comparison for some reason).
Not that I care, really, but if your point is that women's achievements are under-reported in the mags I don't think I agree.
On the other hand, when Katherine Schirrmacher on-sighted The Knock, something which well over a thousand men must have done, including someone I know on their first day out on the grit, she was on the front cover of at least one magazine and interviewed in others. Not that it wasn't a good achievement personally - it was; I can certainly remember being pretty thrilled when I did the route (a strangely underreported ascent by comparison for some reason).
Not that I care, really, but if your point is that women's achievements are under-reported in the mags I don't think I agree.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: it seems to only be certain women doesnt it that reports are given readily to.
grahamd: completely agree, id have had no idea either and trusted what the article said if this thread wasnt informing me otherwise.
grahamd: completely agree, id have had no idea either and trusted what the article said if this thread wasnt informing me otherwise.
In reply to Adders:
Since the discovery of the 'easy' way to do Brad Pitt it has hundreds of ascents and grade has tumbled. It was a fine effort by Dal but not worthy of a bleedin' essay.
Why is it that no woman has repeated 'Jumping on a Beetle' ar 'Angels Share' or even 'Velvet Silence' and many more of that ilk ? no strength or height required, after all, as we are constantly told, women possess greater balance and poise than us clumsy oafs ?
You need to pull your finger out a bit !
> (In reply to Becky) id love to agree with him Becky, but i find it bollocks that male/female grades are equal.( not sayying john said that exactly )
>
> that report of that woman ( cant remember her name ) who did brad pitt v10, recently in climber had the smallest article ever! why? how many woman ( and men to some degree ) do u know who can do brad pitt! and all she got was 2 lines in climber.
>
> that report of that woman ( cant remember her name ) who did brad pitt v10, recently in climber had the smallest article ever! why? how many woman ( and men to some degree ) do u know who can do brad pitt! and all she got was 2 lines in climber.
Since the discovery of the 'easy' way to do Brad Pitt it has hundreds of ascents and grade has tumbled. It was a fine effort by Dal but not worthy of a bleedin' essay.
Why is it that no woman has repeated 'Jumping on a Beetle' ar 'Angels Share' or even 'Velvet Silence' and many more of that ilk ? no strength or height required, after all, as we are constantly told, women possess greater balance and poise than us clumsy oafs ?
You need to pull your finger out a bit !
In reply to Iain Ellis: lol i dont pretend to be that good, wish i was!
to be honest never even heard of those problems u mentioned.
brad pitt,easy version or not, a v10! wow that inspires me personally. i dont think an essay is required however 2 lines was a little feeble.
to be honest never even heard of those problems u mentioned.
brad pitt,easy version or not, a v10! wow that inspires me personally. i dont think an essay is required however 2 lines was a little feeble.
In reply to Adders: There's a pretty sizeable picture of it in Climber this month, in SP's column.
I made a decision to not get involved with these discussions a while ago because they truely are a load of bollocks. In fact this is my fault that this got reported because I called Tom, the news person. I just want to make one point. I saw Lisa do White Lines. She had practiced it just a couple of times the previous day but it was too hot to climb it that day - in fact when she did it it was still far too hot. A very quick ascent by anyone's standards and very bad conditions.
Lisa used no mats apart from her fleece and rucksack and only had one spotter - her belayer. My point is that she was adamant that this was how the ascent should be, because as a girl, and how well she predicted this discussion, she would be so much more under the microscope than any male counterpart. It really is no wonder that girls don't want to report what they do (Lisa knows nothing about this thread - I might tell her this afternoon). Can I just ask how many men headpoint in this style. Very few from what I've seen at the crag.
Personally I am inspired by Lisa's ascent and felt priveliged to see it as I haven't seen many headpoints. As a female climber I want to know about these kinds of ascents. It makes me want to go out and climb.
I know that most people have been positive about this ascent on this Forum - but to those people who cannot resist having to dissect, compare and criticise - get a bloody life.
P.S. to Joncoxmysteriously - I never got a front cover for doing the Knock and I never did any interviews - I never even sent the photo in to the magazine - what got written about it was nothing to do with me. I just went out climbing for the evening. Believe me I personally have this climb in perspective - I have onsighted 'plenty' of E4s on grit that are much harder.
Lisa used no mats apart from her fleece and rucksack and only had one spotter - her belayer. My point is that she was adamant that this was how the ascent should be, because as a girl, and how well she predicted this discussion, she would be so much more under the microscope than any male counterpart. It really is no wonder that girls don't want to report what they do (Lisa knows nothing about this thread - I might tell her this afternoon). Can I just ask how many men headpoint in this style. Very few from what I've seen at the crag.
Personally I am inspired by Lisa's ascent and felt priveliged to see it as I haven't seen many headpoints. As a female climber I want to know about these kinds of ascents. It makes me want to go out and climb.
I know that most people have been positive about this ascent on this Forum - but to those people who cannot resist having to dissect, compare and criticise - get a bloody life.
P.S. to Joncoxmysteriously - I never got a front cover for doing the Knock and I never did any interviews - I never even sent the photo in to the magazine - what got written about it was nothing to do with me. I just went out climbing for the evening. Believe me I personally have this climb in perspective - I have onsighted 'plenty' of E4s on grit that are much harder.
In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:
Its a shame these details were not in the news section as a quick and mat-less ascent is to me more impressive than 'first natural grit E7' as reported.
Despite people not believing that the picture airlie showed had considerable padding on the ground for masters edge. I was pointing this out as Lisa's must be the first mat-less grit E7, which makes it more impressive.
Its a shame these details were not in the news section as a quick and mat-less ascent is to me more impressive than 'first natural grit E7' as reported.
Despite people not believing that the picture airlie showed had considerable padding on the ground for masters edge. I was pointing this out as Lisa's must be the first mat-less grit E7, which makes it more impressive.
In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:
You think discussion about how climbing is reported at the elite end of our sport is bollocks ?
It might be sad but it is true that ascents like these a) inspire others to try to emmulate and b) can be used commercially. In that context, the accuracy of reporting in this, like everything else, is importantand is worthy of discussion.
You think discussion about how climbing is reported at the elite end of our sport is bollocks ?
It might be sad but it is true that ascents like these a) inspire others to try to emmulate and b) can be used commercially. In that context, the accuracy of reporting in this, like everything else, is importantand is worthy of discussion.
n reply to GrahamD:
Hang on. It's the first E7 headpoint on natural grit by a woman. It deserved to be and was reported as such. Next time I'll get the detail on whether a pad or spotter was involved, as it's obviously significant that Lisa decided she didn't want a ton of these. But I don't really see the issue over the accuracy in which Lisa's ascent was reported.
I actually agree with Katherine - this thread has turned into the usual cynical b*llocks with comments from pundits like Coxy. You're having a dig Jon with the same tedious Knock example that you always use, except that now you're (knowingly) blowing it out of proportion.
> (In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher)
>
> You think discussion about how climbing is reported at the elite end of our sport is bollocks ?
>
> You think discussion about how climbing is reported at the elite end of our sport is bollocks ?
Hang on. It's the first E7 headpoint on natural grit by a woman. It deserved to be and was reported as such. Next time I'll get the detail on whether a pad or spotter was involved, as it's obviously significant that Lisa decided she didn't want a ton of these. But I don't really see the issue over the accuracy in which Lisa's ascent was reported.
I actually agree with Katherine - this thread has turned into the usual cynical b*llocks with comments from pundits like Coxy. You're having a dig Jon with the same tedious Knock example that you always use, except that now you're (knowingly) blowing it out of proportion.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Sorry, Tom, my reply to Katherine was about discussing reporting these things in general - it is not intended as a snipe at Lisa (or you) in any way.
I have absolutely no issue with Lisa's ascent being hailed as significant, especially now it has clearly been put in the context of Airlie's ascent of Masters edge.
All I ask is that reports of any ascents, male or female, cild or OAP, are treated with the Editorial objectivity they deserve.
Sorry, Tom, my reply to Katherine was about discussing reporting these things in general - it is not intended as a snipe at Lisa (or you) in any way.
I have absolutely no issue with Lisa's ascent being hailed as significant, especially now it has clearly been put in the context of Airlie's ascent of Masters edge.
All I ask is that reports of any ascents, male or female, cild or OAP, are treated with the Editorial objectivity they deserve.
In reply to no one in particular
I do not understand the line of reasoning saying that E7 was done 10 years ago so it is not so interesting nowadays? Font 8a+ problems where done in the 70's and significant repeats or new problems in this grade are still being reported. French 9a was done 10 years ago, and ascents of 9a's are still newsworthy, the same as for 8b+'s onsight.
"Thimble" in the needles is about 12a as a toprope, with no protection and with the crux on the top high above a (in the 60's) backbraking rail, the grade would be, what, E6 perhaps? The first ascent was 1961 ground up, no mats, no spotters. And now 42 years later ground up first ascent of not much harder routes is still news.
I do not understand the line of reasoning saying that E7 was done 10 years ago so it is not so interesting nowadays? Font 8a+ problems where done in the 70's and significant repeats or new problems in this grade are still being reported. French 9a was done 10 years ago, and ascents of 9a's are still newsworthy, the same as for 8b+'s onsight.
"Thimble" in the needles is about 12a as a toprope, with no protection and with the crux on the top high above a (in the 60's) backbraking rail, the grade would be, what, E6 perhaps? The first ascent was 1961 ground up, no mats, no spotters. And now 42 years later ground up first ascent of not much harder routes is still news.
In reply to jonas:
I think that's because the threshold for what constitutes 'news' has probably lowered.
News promotes magazine circulation, advertising, sponsorship and keeps the wannabees buying overtight boots to climb VS's.
This is a general observation, not in any way criticising the specific ascent in t'OP.
I think that's because the threshold for what constitutes 'news' has probably lowered.
News promotes magazine circulation, advertising, sponsorship and keeps the wannabees buying overtight boots to climb VS's.
This is a general observation, not in any way criticising the specific ascent in t'OP.
In reply to Katherine and Tom, UKC News Editor:
Katherine, I know perfectly well you have this ascent in perspective and have done harder things - probably far harder things. But someone was complaining women's ascents are underreported. I don't think that's true. Sometimes they're overreported, and like it or not I'm afraid (in my opinion) this particular occasion was rather a good example of that – I doubt if you’d disagree. If I had my facts wrong then I apologise – I recall a large picture in High, and I thought it was the cover, but if you say I’m wrong I believe you. And I could also have sworn I remember at least some comments attributed to you about it in OTE, but again if I’m wrong I apologise. Not that there’s any reason why there shouldn’t have been – if someone asked me to comment on my latest ascent (Lightning Wall, a HVS at Swanage. Very nice, since you ask.) I expect I’d oblige them too.
Tom – come now. The very news item you posted has a link saying ‘Discuss this in the café’. If all you want is a list of remarks saying ‘that’s amazing, Lisa/Nic/whoever is so great’ then post them yourself. Some of us like to discuss trends and the significance of these ascents, and if you don’t like it, bar us from the forum.
As for cynical – this ‘natural grit’ thing, when applied to women only (as it is) is a little weird, don’t you think? Possibly a little patronizing? I mean, Toxic Bilberries was the first quarried grit E8 headpoint by a man, after all (or perhaps it wasn’t, but presumably something was). You don’t hear that being said. Instead of telling me I’m cynical, why don’t you tell me why that is?
No mats, only two practices – fine effort. I couldn’t agree more that this was a newsworthy ascent and I’m glad to have learned these details from this thread. Lisa R’s good, no doubt about it: Having said that, she hasn’t – yet – stepped ahead of her time in this field at least the way Airlie did, although I’m sure she’s capable of doing End of the Affair or Gaia and I really hope she does.
(Are women REALLY subject to more scrutiny than men? You can’t have it both ways. If women’s climbing is seen as a separate subject worthy of as much attention as men’s, then Lisa R is pretty much the top performer in that field. Is what she does really receiving more scrutiny, let alone more poisonous scrutiny, than John Dunne or Bernabe Fernandez?)
Katherine, I know perfectly well you have this ascent in perspective and have done harder things - probably far harder things. But someone was complaining women's ascents are underreported. I don't think that's true. Sometimes they're overreported, and like it or not I'm afraid (in my opinion) this particular occasion was rather a good example of that – I doubt if you’d disagree. If I had my facts wrong then I apologise – I recall a large picture in High, and I thought it was the cover, but if you say I’m wrong I believe you. And I could also have sworn I remember at least some comments attributed to you about it in OTE, but again if I’m wrong I apologise. Not that there’s any reason why there shouldn’t have been – if someone asked me to comment on my latest ascent (Lightning Wall, a HVS at Swanage. Very nice, since you ask.) I expect I’d oblige them too.
Tom – come now. The very news item you posted has a link saying ‘Discuss this in the café’. If all you want is a list of remarks saying ‘that’s amazing, Lisa/Nic/whoever is so great’ then post them yourself. Some of us like to discuss trends and the significance of these ascents, and if you don’t like it, bar us from the forum.
As for cynical – this ‘natural grit’ thing, when applied to women only (as it is) is a little weird, don’t you think? Possibly a little patronizing? I mean, Toxic Bilberries was the first quarried grit E8 headpoint by a man, after all (or perhaps it wasn’t, but presumably something was). You don’t hear that being said. Instead of telling me I’m cynical, why don’t you tell me why that is?
No mats, only two practices – fine effort. I couldn’t agree more that this was a newsworthy ascent and I’m glad to have learned these details from this thread. Lisa R’s good, no doubt about it: Having said that, she hasn’t – yet – stepped ahead of her time in this field at least the way Airlie did, although I’m sure she’s capable of doing End of the Affair or Gaia and I really hope she does.
(Are women REALLY subject to more scrutiny than men? You can’t have it both ways. If women’s climbing is seen as a separate subject worthy of as much attention as men’s, then Lisa R is pretty much the top performer in that field. Is what she does really receiving more scrutiny, let alone more poisonous scrutiny, than John Dunne or Bernabe Fernandez?)
In reply to Iain Ellis:
Utter nonsense. An ascent of Brad Pit by a female is incredibly impressive. Its font 7c+ and the list of male ascents is not half as large as you probably think. Also the easier method dropped the grade by one or at most two grades (hard method 8a/+)
An amazing effort by Dalvinder. She did the problem in only six attempts, in one day and in hot conditions.
Airlie's ascent 10 years ago brilliant.
Lisa's recent ascent amazing.
I'm not trying to knock any of these efforts they both inspire and humble me and should do the same for everyone else who reads about them.
Utter nonsense. An ascent of Brad Pit by a female is incredibly impressive. Its font 7c+ and the list of male ascents is not half as large as you probably think. Also the easier method dropped the grade by one or at most two grades (hard method 8a/+)
An amazing effort by Dalvinder. She did the problem in only six attempts, in one day and in hot conditions.
Airlie's ascent 10 years ago brilliant.
Lisa's recent ascent amazing.
I'm not trying to knock any of these efforts they both inspire and humble me and should do the same for everyone else who reads about them.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
What saddens me is that every ascent that is reported thesedays seems to have it's integrity questioned, or is belittled in some way. I'd say that 99 times out of 100, it's the news editors who are over-hyping or getting it blatantly wrong, but then the climber gets it in the neck.
So I'm guilty by putting the natural grit spin on it and linking it the forums. Except that I think it's actually quite good for women climber's achievements to be well covered and it's good for promoting climbing to more women.
Was there so little coverage of DS's ascent of Brad Pitt becuase she was afraid of being flamed? I wouldn't be surprised. Katherine is still being slagged off because of something that appeared about her in a magazine 3 years ago.
> (In reply to Katherine and Tom, UKC News Editor)
What saddens me is that every ascent that is reported thesedays seems to have it's integrity questioned, or is belittled in some way. I'd say that 99 times out of 100, it's the news editors who are over-hyping or getting it blatantly wrong, but then the climber gets it in the neck.
So I'm guilty by putting the natural grit spin on it and linking it the forums. Except that I think it's actually quite good for women climber's achievements to be well covered and it's good for promoting climbing to more women.
Was there so little coverage of DS's ascent of Brad Pitt becuase she was afraid of being flamed? I wouldn't be surprised. Katherine is still being slagged off because of something that appeared about her in a magazine 3 years ago.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: well said Tom.
Its a sorry state to be in when we cant just congradulate without nit picking every detail and being cynical.
Its a sorry state to be in when we cant just congradulate without nit picking every detail and being cynical.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
It largely depends on whether you think your job is to report facts to us punters or to massage the ego of the ascensionists.
I don't see that putting an ascent into a historical context belittles the ascensionists, but neither does it boost any egos either.
It largely depends on whether you think your job is to report facts to us punters or to massage the ego of the ascensionists.
I don't see that putting an ascent into a historical context belittles the ascensionists, but neither does it boost any egos either.
Actually, I think women are subject to more scrutiny as there are more men out there operating at the same level. So someone like yourself can say, "Well I did The Knock and it's only E4 and I'm just a punter. What's so special about her ascent?"
In reply to GrahamD:
Report facts but also provoke thought. If a climber sees their name in print and it boosts their ego then good for them. It might spur them on to new things. Better than being cynical and bitter.
Report facts but also provoke thought. If a climber sees their name in print and it boosts their ego then good for them. It might spur them on to new things. Better than being cynical and bitter.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Rubbish. I didn't slag Katherine off. Someone said women's climbing isn't in the mags enough. I don't think that's true and I can hardly say so without using examples. I didn't say anything against her at all.
Nor did I belittle Lisa R's ascent. I just said it wasn't as impressive an achievement as Airlie's. You can't discuss the significance of an ascent without some people saying it's more significant than other people say. The latter is inherent in any discussion.
I just don't get what you want, to be honest. A whole thread's worth of people saying Wow well done Lisa?
Rubbish. I didn't slag Katherine off. Someone said women's climbing isn't in the mags enough. I don't think that's true and I can hardly say so without using examples. I didn't say anything against her at all.
Nor did I belittle Lisa R's ascent. I just said it wasn't as impressive an achievement as Airlie's. You can't discuss the significance of an ascent without some people saying it's more significant than other people say. The latter is inherent in any discussion.
I just don't get what you want, to be honest. A whole thread's worth of people saying Wow well done Lisa?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Of course women operating at E7 are subject to more scrutiny than men operating at E7. But I don't think that's what you're saying - you're saying that more people can comment in an informed way on an ascent of a given E7 than of a given E10. Well, that's true, isn't it?
Of course women operating at E7 are subject to more scrutiny than men operating at E7. But I don't think that's what you're saying - you're saying that more people can comment in an informed way on an ascent of a given E7 than of a given E10. Well, that's true, isn't it?
In reply to Adders:
>Its a sorry state to be in when we cant just congradulate without nit picking every detail and being cynical.
Oh, what tosh. Honestly. If I met Lisa R in the pub I'd be the first - well, I wouldn't, but let's say the three hundredth or so - to say well done. The fact that I and others don't see the point in posting congratulations on here to someone we've never met who wouldn't know us from a hole in the ground, doesn't mean we're in a sorry state at all. In my opinion it's a lot sadder that some people don't seem to know of Catherine D's and Airlie A's feats of the past than it is that some people prefer discussion to fawning.
>Its a sorry state to be in when we cant just congradulate without nit picking every detail and being cynical.
Oh, what tosh. Honestly. If I met Lisa R in the pub I'd be the first - well, I wouldn't, but let's say the three hundredth or so - to say well done. The fact that I and others don't see the point in posting congratulations on here to someone we've never met who wouldn't know us from a hole in the ground, doesn't mean we're in a sorry state at all. In my opinion it's a lot sadder that some people don't seem to know of Catherine D's and Airlie A's feats of the past than it is that some people prefer discussion to fawning.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: as you refer to me being the person who said womens ascents should be in the mags more.
not what i said.
i made an example of dal climbing brad pitt only having a small amount of coverage you read into the rest. (also commenting imo womens acheivements are different to mens)
you dont need to come on here and say well done but coming on here and belittling peoples achievements doesnt help anyone.
end of rant, im gonna get out climbing later so i can do some pathetic little b4 boulder problems rather than waste my time argueing with yourself and others- which is pointless in itself so apologies.
not what i said.
i made an example of dal climbing brad pitt only having a small amount of coverage you read into the rest. (also commenting imo womens acheivements are different to mens)
you dont need to come on here and say well done but coming on here and belittling peoples achievements doesnt help anyone.
end of rant, im gonna get out climbing later so i can do some pathetic little b4 boulder problems rather than waste my time argueing with yourself and others- which is pointless in itself so apologies.
In reply to Adders:
Did I say it was you? I think it was Becky who said it specifically. But, as you say yourself, you used an ‘example’ of Dalvinder. Presumably that was meant to be an ‘example’ of something?
As to belittling this ascent, I said that I took my hat off to the climber but that it wasn’t as significant as some ascents in the past. If that’s belittling then I’m Brad Pitt.
Did I say it was you? I think it was Becky who said it specifically. But, as you say yourself, you used an ‘example’ of Dalvinder. Presumably that was meant to be an ‘example’ of something?
As to belittling this ascent, I said that I took my hat off to the climber but that it wasn’t as significant as some ascents in the past. If that’s belittling then I’m Brad Pitt.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
All well and good, I agree with you. However, you can still add an accurate historical context without knocking the achievement.
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> Report facts but also provoke thought. If a climber sees their name in print and it boosts their ego then good for them. It might spur them on to new things. Better than being cynical and bitter.
>
> Report facts but also provoke thought. If a climber sees their name in print and it boosts their ego then good for them. It might spur them on to new things. Better than being cynical and bitter.
All well and good, I agree with you. However, you can still add an accurate historical context without knocking the achievement.
In reply to GrahamD:
She may have climbed E7 on grit, but whose looking after her fish, Bubbles, Goldie, and Spike?
This fella that's who....and they've got sharp teeth.
MR
She may have climbed E7 on grit, but whose looking after her fish, Bubbles, Goldie, and Spike?
This fella that's who....and they've got sharp teeth.
MR
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Isnt Heavens Door/Born Slippy on Quarried Grit?
In reply to Chris Fryer:
Yes, I suppose it is in a way. But then in the same way I'm not sure White Lines isn't actually - there was random quarrying all along the edge, and I certainly wouldn't presume to know which bits were which.
Yes, I suppose it is in a way. But then in the same way I'm not sure White Lines isn't actually - there was random quarrying all along the edge, and I certainly wouldn't presume to know which bits were which.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: This is not aimed at you john,, just a general question.
Why the distinction between quarried grit and natural, nobody ever mentioned quarried limestone v natural limestone or the same for sandstone.
Why the distinction between quarried grit and natural, nobody ever mentioned quarried limestone v natural limestone or the same for sandstone.
In reply to graeme alderson:
I would repost my earlier reply to this question, but Tom would call me a cynical punter again!
I would repost my earlier reply to this question, but Tom would call me a cynical punter again!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Is it me or is everyone being a bit thick?
Natural grit is different to quarried grit because it's a different syle of climbing: compare the holds on Edge Lane to those on, err, Ulysses. Edge Lane is covered in decent crimpers because it was quarried. Ulysses is covered in rounded pieces of ming because it's natural grit. So the style of climbing is different. The differences between quarried limestone and natural limestone isn't so great.
Before Lisa R's ascent there had been, what, 1 ascent of grit E7 by a woman. Last month there were pics in the mags of Ben Heason soloing a grit E8, which was reported as being newsworthy. Soloing grit E8 was done nearly 20 years ago. I've soloed grit E8. Lots of my friends have soloed grit E8. It's not news. No woman has climbed E7 on natural grit before and only 1 on quarried grit. Surely that makes it newsworthy John?
Is it me or is everyone being a bit thick?
Natural grit is different to quarried grit because it's a different syle of climbing: compare the holds on Edge Lane to those on, err, Ulysses. Edge Lane is covered in decent crimpers because it was quarried. Ulysses is covered in rounded pieces of ming because it's natural grit. So the style of climbing is different. The differences between quarried limestone and natural limestone isn't so great.
Before Lisa R's ascent there had been, what, 1 ascent of grit E7 by a woman. Last month there were pics in the mags of Ben Heason soloing a grit E8, which was reported as being newsworthy. Soloing grit E8 was done nearly 20 years ago. I've soloed grit E8. Lots of my friends have soloed grit E8. It's not news. No woman has climbed E7 on natural grit before and only 1 on quarried grit. Surely that makes it newsworthy John?
In reply to David Ferguson:
‘Course it’s newsworthy. I’ve said so about a million times. As you’ll see if you read the thread, someone said this was a more creditable ascent than Airlie A’s because AA was very familiar with grit and Lisa R isn’t. I was just pointing out that this was bollocks. Other people then started whinging about underreporting of women’s climbing. I pointed out that this was bollocks too.
And of course natural grit and quarried grit are different. I was merely pointing out that you only hear this distinction made when one is talking about women.
Anyway, turning to an (even) more interesting topic, presumably this means that Master’s Edge is covered in little crimpers. Sounds handy. Is this true, anyone?
‘Course it’s newsworthy. I’ve said so about a million times. As you’ll see if you read the thread, someone said this was a more creditable ascent than Airlie A’s because AA was very familiar with grit and Lisa R isn’t. I was just pointing out that this was bollocks. Other people then started whinging about underreporting of women’s climbing. I pointed out that this was bollocks too.
And of course natural grit and quarried grit are different. I was merely pointing out that you only hear this distinction made when one is talking about women.
Anyway, turning to an (even) more interesting topic, presumably this means that Master’s Edge is covered in little crimpers. Sounds handy. Is this true, anyone?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Ok so maybe that was just a big uninformed generalisation for me. I don't want to distinguish between men and women climbing but then again it is done, and there do seem to be less women in mags due to perhaps there not being the same numbers of women out there hitting the kind of grades that larger numbers of male climbers do. I just want to see that change and I guess this will come with time i.e.. when equal nos of men and women climb and have been climbing for a long time (i.e. there might be more women climbers now but collectively they might not have as many years experience as the collective mass of male climbers). Perhaps there is no gender issue in climbing, perhaps we are making an issue by harping on about it.
I'm sure this ought to be unrelated to the ascent reported above as I'm sure most people would not want their achievements to be reported according to their sex but as achievements in themselves.
John, is your point a gender based one at all - i.e. why should women climbers get reported doing something that other climbers don't get reported for doing (i.e. yourself) simply on the basis of their gender?
sorry if none of above makes sense, I'm just thinking this through . . . its a difficult issue I think.
Ok so maybe that was just a big uninformed generalisation for me. I don't want to distinguish between men and women climbing but then again it is done, and there do seem to be less women in mags due to perhaps there not being the same numbers of women out there hitting the kind of grades that larger numbers of male climbers do. I just want to see that change and I guess this will come with time i.e.. when equal nos of men and women climb and have been climbing for a long time (i.e. there might be more women climbers now but collectively they might not have as many years experience as the collective mass of male climbers). Perhaps there is no gender issue in climbing, perhaps we are making an issue by harping on about it.
I'm sure this ought to be unrelated to the ascent reported above as I'm sure most people would not want their achievements to be reported according to their sex but as achievements in themselves.
John, is your point a gender based one at all - i.e. why should women climbers get reported doing something that other climbers don't get reported for doing (i.e. yourself) simply on the basis of their gender?
sorry if none of above makes sense, I'm just thinking this through . . . its a difficult issue I think.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
ps I was harldy whinging on, bit unfair don't you think? I thought you were wanting a discussion here? Sounds like you have some sort of hidden agenda to me.
ps I was harldy whinging on, bit unfair don't you think? I thought you were wanting a discussion here? Sounds like you have some sort of hidden agenda to me.
In reply to Becky: not just you Becky. Johns always right you see ( in his own little mind )
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I think it is - alas, it sounds like they are all facing the wrong way (downwards). See Leach's prose in ExtRock.
> Anyway, turning to an (even) more interesting topic, presumably this means that Master’s Edge is covered in little crimpers. Sounds handy. Is this true, anyone?
I think it is - alas, it sounds like they are all facing the wrong way (downwards). See Leach's prose in ExtRock.
In reply to Becky:
Yes, that was unfair. Sorry about that. I was getting a bit vexed by those were saying that this thread wasn’t for discussion and that by indulging in discussion on it I was ‘belittling’ Lisa R’s ascent, ‘slagging’ Katherine Schirrmacher, revealing myself as a ‘cynical pundit’ and demonstrating that I was ‘always right in my own little mind’
>Sounds like you have some sort of hidden agenda to me.
Blimey. Now the thread's turned to what all threads should be about - me -, why don't you tell me what you mean?
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> ps I was harldy whinging on, bit unfair don't you think? I thought you were wanting a discussion here?
>
> ps I was harldy whinging on, bit unfair don't you think? I thought you were wanting a discussion here?
Yes, that was unfair. Sorry about that. I was getting a bit vexed by those were saying that this thread wasn’t for discussion and that by indulging in discussion on it I was ‘belittling’ Lisa R’s ascent, ‘slagging’ Katherine Schirrmacher, revealing myself as a ‘cynical pundit’ and demonstrating that I was ‘always right in my own little mind’
>Sounds like you have some sort of hidden agenda to me.
Blimey. Now the thread's turned to what all threads should be about - me -, why don't you tell me what you mean?
In reply to Becky:
I think there are fewer women in the mags than men, probably a smaller proportion than the proportion of the climbing population made up of women. On the other hand the mags, very naturally, tend to concentrate on harder ascents and that part of the climbing population which is very committed and trying to push standards forwards (whether women’s standards or men’s). And my impression is that, while there are a lot of women climbing, a much smaller proportion of women climbers are really pushing their own standards than of men climbers. If we say, making a wild generalisation, that men’s climbing is newsworthy at E8 and up, and women’s at E5 and up, then I think that in proportion to the number of men doing the former and of women doing the latter, women get a very fair crack of the whip in terms of coverage.
Of course women should get reported for doing something that wouldn’t be newsworthy if done by men. As they do: for example Tanya Holdsworth got quite a lot of coverage for being the first woman to do natural grit E6 awhile back, which she did in the company of a mate of mine who did it the same evening and whose name wasn’t in the mags at all (as it shouldn’t be, of course, after all thousands of men have done this).
As to your suggestion that I think I should get reported in the mags and I’m jealous of women who do, how well you know me! This summer I’ve climbed quite a lot of E2s, and I really can barely describe how hurt I was when On The Edge declined my suggestion that they should profile me.
I think there are fewer women in the mags than men, probably a smaller proportion than the proportion of the climbing population made up of women. On the other hand the mags, very naturally, tend to concentrate on harder ascents and that part of the climbing population which is very committed and trying to push standards forwards (whether women’s standards or men’s). And my impression is that, while there are a lot of women climbing, a much smaller proportion of women climbers are really pushing their own standards than of men climbers. If we say, making a wild generalisation, that men’s climbing is newsworthy at E8 and up, and women’s at E5 and up, then I think that in proportion to the number of men doing the former and of women doing the latter, women get a very fair crack of the whip in terms of coverage.
Of course women should get reported for doing something that wouldn’t be newsworthy if done by men. As they do: for example Tanya Holdsworth got quite a lot of coverage for being the first woman to do natural grit E6 awhile back, which she did in the company of a mate of mine who did it the same evening and whose name wasn’t in the mags at all (as it shouldn’t be, of course, after all thousands of men have done this).
As to your suggestion that I think I should get reported in the mags and I’m jealous of women who do, how well you know me! This summer I’ve climbed quite a lot of E2s, and I really can barely describe how hurt I was when On The Edge declined my suggestion that they should profile me.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Not only do men outnumber women climbers, I suspect (with no evidence whatsoever) that the ratio is even bigger amongst the magazine buyers. The women who decry the lack of coverage simply don't make a big enough market sector.
Not only do men outnumber women climbers, I suspect (with no evidence whatsoever) that the ratio is even bigger amongst the magazine buyers. The women who decry the lack of coverage simply don't make a big enough market sector.
For me, its not the fact that there isn't enough coverage of women's climbing in magazines. I think that there is a fair bit - even if it is by the same few. My issue is that whenever something is reported, there seems to be a select few that always find reasons to criticise. There is no doubt in my mind that female reporting is scrutinised much more closely that male with comments like - it took her x days, or its not really that grade, so what, how many mats etc. I don't hear these kind of statements with regard to male ascents.
In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:
>e - it took her x days, or its not really that grade, so what, how many mats etc. I don't hear these kind of statements with regard to male ascents.
I think it happens most of the time with reported ascents; there always seems to be some questions regarding number of mats or how much practise the climber had etc. Well, there is on this site at least.
>e - it took her x days, or its not really that grade, so what, how many mats etc. I don't hear these kind of statements with regard to male ascents.
I think it happens most of the time with reported ascents; there always seems to be some questions regarding number of mats or how much practise the climber had etc. Well, there is on this site at least.
In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:
Scrutinised or critiscised ? they aren't the same thing.
If you are trying to highlight women's achievements, it is right and proper to scrutinise.
Scrutinised or critiscised ? they aren't the same thing.
If you are trying to highlight women's achievements, it is right and proper to scrutinise.
In reply to Jonathan T: Too right - There are always people on here crying about the fact that a route was top-roped first, whether the climber saw someone else do it before and how its not a proper flash, that they can't have the grade 'cos a mat was used, how its easier than the said grade etc etc. It doesn't matter who it is, male or female.
In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:
I don't suppose Bernabe Fernandez or John Dunne would agree with you there.
I know there was that fuss at the time of Airlie A on Master's Edge, but apart from that I really don't think there's any more than with men at the cutting edge. More than men doing the same routes, sure, but then as Graham says, they're not making history.
I don't suppose Bernabe Fernandez or John Dunne would agree with you there.
I know there was that fuss at the time of Airlie A on Master's Edge, but apart from that I really don't think there's any more than with men at the cutting edge. More than men doing the same routes, sure, but then as Graham says, they're not making history.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Gresham - 2nd ascent of Equilibrium. No scrutiny.
Various - ascents of Meshuga. No scrutiny.
apart from the obvious Dunney example and a bit of sour grapes towards some others who court publicity...
I just get the feeling that women's ascents are scrutinised more because there are more informed men who have climbed (or top roped) the routes. That's my impression.
> (In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher)
> I know there was that fuss at the time of Airlie A on Master's Edge, but apart from that I really don't think there's any more than with men at the cutting edge. More than men doing the same routes, sure, but then as Graham says, they're not making history.
> I know there was that fuss at the time of Airlie A on Master's Edge, but apart from that I really don't think there's any more than with men at the cutting edge. More than men doing the same routes, sure, but then as Graham says, they're not making history.
Gresham - 2nd ascent of Equilibrium. No scrutiny.
Various - ascents of Meshuga. No scrutiny.
apart from the obvious Dunney example and a bit of sour grapes towards some others who court publicity...
I just get the feeling that women's ascents are scrutinised more because there are more informed men who have climbed (or top roped) the routes. That's my impression.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
yeah, it would be nice if that wasn't the case, though! I mean that there were no difference.
>This summer I’ve climbed quite a lot of E2s, and I really can barely describe how hurt I was when On The Edge declined my suggestion that they should profile me.
well, never mind, maybe if you try them again without all the mats and on natural grit?
> (In reply to Becky)
>
> Of course women should get reported for doing something that wouldn’t be newsworthy if done by men.
>
> Of course women should get reported for doing something that wouldn’t be newsworthy if done by men.
yeah, it would be nice if that wasn't the case, though! I mean that there were no difference.
>This summer I’ve climbed quite a lot of E2s, and I really can barely describe how hurt I was when On The Edge declined my suggestion that they should profile me.
well, never mind, maybe if you try them again without all the mats and on natural grit?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
...oh, and my point is it (the scrutiny) isn't often very encouraging or positive which is what, from my experience, women respond to.
...oh, and my point is it (the scrutiny) isn't often very encouraging or positive which is what, from my experience, women respond to.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I have to agree with alot of what Becky has been saying. It's a tricky one. It would be great if women could climb as hard, grade-wise, as men, ie. if women were as consistently hitting the top grades as men. If this were the case, gender would be meaningless in terms of mag reports. But it's not the case, and so, as most people have said, we do need to congratulate womens' best achievements, whatever those achievements (and their grades) are.
It may be that women are not being underreported in the mags (I won't enter the debate about their specific treatment), but, and here's the crux of my humble opinion, it may be better to overreport women's climbing activity. Perhaps this is what is needed to boost women's role in this sport. To provide inspiration to future female climbers and to give a more 50-50 outlook . True, this may not reflect the actual participation/achievement ratio of men to women, which may be more like 70-30 (I have no idea – I made this figure up), but it might be what is needed to get nearer the 50-50 figure in future.
Just an idea.
I have to agree with alot of what Becky has been saying. It's a tricky one. It would be great if women could climb as hard, grade-wise, as men, ie. if women were as consistently hitting the top grades as men. If this were the case, gender would be meaningless in terms of mag reports. But it's not the case, and so, as most people have said, we do need to congratulate womens' best achievements, whatever those achievements (and their grades) are.
It may be that women are not being underreported in the mags (I won't enter the debate about their specific treatment), but, and here's the crux of my humble opinion, it may be better to overreport women's climbing activity. Perhaps this is what is needed to boost women's role in this sport. To provide inspiration to future female climbers and to give a more 50-50 outlook . True, this may not reflect the actual participation/achievement ratio of men to women, which may be more like 70-30 (I have no idea – I made this figure up), but it might be what is needed to get nearer the 50-50 figure in future.
Just an idea.
In reply to Anonymous:
exactly what i was trying to say - that was much more eloquent though! That's fridays for you I guess. Without getting on a mission about women climbing (and thereby segregating further) perhaps overreporting until the balance tips is what is needed. Then it will just be, oh yeah, so and so did whatever, without gender entering into it.
Maybe it will be that physical differences will always mark out a difference, but then we're really not at a place where we can judge that fairly yet - at least not in this sport.
I think John said something about there not being as many women pushing it to the same extent as blokes is less fair in this light coz there's a lesser pool of women climbers from which the top women can come. ie. greater number of climbers= greater number of top end climbers.
But then with some of the younger female climbers being pretty amazing it will be interesting to see what happens in the next ten years.
exactly what i was trying to say - that was much more eloquent though! That's fridays for you I guess. Without getting on a mission about women climbing (and thereby segregating further) perhaps overreporting until the balance tips is what is needed. Then it will just be, oh yeah, so and so did whatever, without gender entering into it.
Maybe it will be that physical differences will always mark out a difference, but then we're really not at a place where we can judge that fairly yet - at least not in this sport.
I think John said something about there not being as many women pushing it to the same extent as blokes is less fair in this light coz there's a lesser pool of women climbers from which the top women can come. ie. greater number of climbers= greater number of top end climbers.
But then with some of the younger female climbers being pretty amazing it will be interesting to see what happens in the next ten years.
In reply to Becky:
It's interesting that women sprinters are accelerating at a faster rate than male sprinters – ie their top speeds have not plateaued to the same degree that the men's have. It is unlikely that the women will fully catch up or overtake, but the point is that women have not achieved their best as far as the men have. Of course, both genders are still improving, but the women have farther to improve. I guess the same is true of climbing.
And I agree: there is something to be said about women's achievements being even greater than the men's as there is a smaller pool of women to choose from. A bit like England's (occasional) success in international sports. We are a small, but talented, island. (Of course, economic size it perhaps more relevant, but let's keep the analogy simple.)
It's interesting that women sprinters are accelerating at a faster rate than male sprinters – ie their top speeds have not plateaued to the same degree that the men's have. It is unlikely that the women will fully catch up or overtake, but the point is that women have not achieved their best as far as the men have. Of course, both genders are still improving, but the women have farther to improve. I guess the same is true of climbing.
And I agree: there is something to be said about women's achievements being even greater than the men's as there is a smaller pool of women to choose from. A bit like England's (occasional) success in international sports. We are a small, but talented, island. (Of course, economic size it perhaps more relevant, but let's keep the analogy simple.)
In reply to Becky:
There is indeed a smaller pool of women climbers, but my point was different. In addition, I think that a lower proportion of that pool is dedicated to pushing its grade, and a higher proportion dedicated to (putting it crudely) climbing with the boyfriend, than is the case with men.
I doubt if we'll ever get away from the gender of the performer - no other sport has, why would climbing? I can't really see why you'd want to.
I am sure anonymous is right when s/he says that women's climbing has further to go than men's: my own guess would be that women will get very, very close to men on power endurance sports routes, but will always be behind on cutting edge trad routes. Although you could certainly make a case the other way. I've pointed out before that women were leading HVS in the 1920's at a time when that was pretty much the hardest grade around. By that standard, things have slipped.
There is indeed a smaller pool of women climbers, but my point was different. In addition, I think that a lower proportion of that pool is dedicated to pushing its grade, and a higher proportion dedicated to (putting it crudely) climbing with the boyfriend, than is the case with men.
I doubt if we'll ever get away from the gender of the performer - no other sport has, why would climbing? I can't really see why you'd want to.
I am sure anonymous is right when s/he says that women's climbing has further to go than men's: my own guess would be that women will get very, very close to men on power endurance sports routes, but will always be behind on cutting edge trad routes. Although you could certainly make a case the other way. I've pointed out before that women were leading HVS in the 1920's at a time when that was pretty much the hardest grade around. By that standard, things have slipped.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
yeah maybe but that's a bit difficult to quantify. Loads of men and women go out there climbing for loads of different reasons. A lot of women have to start by climbing with blokes simply coz that's who intro'd them to the sport. There's less natural introductions at a younger age for women to a lot of sports, I reckon, boys have football which they can do outside of school, we get netball!?! So its harder for loads of reasons for women to get into extreme sports, just from the perception of it being a masculine domain, loads of perceived sexism in a lot of extreme sports (surfing, mbking etc). So if your boyyfriend intro's you to it, that doesn't mean you are just copying what they do in order to integrate yourself into their life. Its a real pain having to be crapper than your boyfriend at something!!!
well I'd want to just coz its a bit crap being grouped in a not-as-good group however objectively true that might be!! Also even if true I think it can be used as an excuse sometimes. Definitely I do it, and I hate it when I do! i.e. oh they've got more testosterone - that's why they can do that move . . then you find that you can do it anyway . . .
Interesting, you reckon blokes have a better fear tolerance generally? I guess that's a discussion that could go on forever! I would have thought at the upper levels of strength style routes/ bouldering, there women might struggle more to build enough muscle to cope with it. You can't technique your way out of everything.
> (In reply to Becky)
>
> a higher proportion dedicated to (putting it crudely) climbing with the boyfriend, than is the case with men.
>
> a higher proportion dedicated to (putting it crudely) climbing with the boyfriend, than is the case with men.
yeah maybe but that's a bit difficult to quantify. Loads of men and women go out there climbing for loads of different reasons. A lot of women have to start by climbing with blokes simply coz that's who intro'd them to the sport. There's less natural introductions at a younger age for women to a lot of sports, I reckon, boys have football which they can do outside of school, we get netball!?! So its harder for loads of reasons for women to get into extreme sports, just from the perception of it being a masculine domain, loads of perceived sexism in a lot of extreme sports (surfing, mbking etc). So if your boyyfriend intro's you to it, that doesn't mean you are just copying what they do in order to integrate yourself into their life. Its a real pain having to be crapper than your boyfriend at something!!!
> I doubt if we'll ever get away from the gender of the performer - no other sport has, why would climbing? I can't really see why you'd want to.
well I'd want to just coz its a bit crap being grouped in a not-as-good group however objectively true that might be!! Also even if true I think it can be used as an excuse sometimes. Definitely I do it, and I hate it when I do! i.e. oh they've got more testosterone - that's why they can do that move . . then you find that you can do it anyway . . .
>
> I am sure anonymous is right when s/he says that women's climbing has further to go than men's: my own guess would be that women will get very, very close to men on power endurance sports routes, but will always be behind on cutting edge trad routes.
> I am sure anonymous is right when s/he says that women's climbing has further to go than men's: my own guess would be that women will get very, very close to men on power endurance sports routes, but will always be behind on cutting edge trad routes.
Interesting, you reckon blokes have a better fear tolerance generally? I guess that's a discussion that could go on forever! I would have thought at the upper levels of strength style routes/ bouldering, there women might struggle more to build enough muscle to cope with it. You can't technique your way out of everything.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
John, I have to say that your additional point is crude to the point of being utter nonsense (but in your strive to churn out inflammatory remarks, you already knew that).
Although I suppose you are right to say than a higher proportion of women, rather than men, climb with the boyfriend.
Joking aside, you may in fact be right. A higher proportion of men than women may be dedicated to pushing their grade (although let me tell you that this has not been my experience).
My main objection is the implication that grade-pushing is what we should all be aspiring to (and that men are doing a better job at this). Is grade pushing so important? I think not, although perhaps a higher proportion of men than women would disagree with me.
We do need some form of grading system to judge our own achievements and those of others, but are the grades sufficient? And do they account for the complex and yet undeniable differences between male and female climbers?
John, I have to say that your additional point is crude to the point of being utter nonsense (but in your strive to churn out inflammatory remarks, you already knew that).
Although I suppose you are right to say than a higher proportion of women, rather than men, climb with the boyfriend.
Joking aside, you may in fact be right. A higher proportion of men than women may be dedicated to pushing their grade (although let me tell you that this has not been my experience).
My main objection is the implication that grade-pushing is what we should all be aspiring to (and that men are doing a better job at this). Is grade pushing so important? I think not, although perhaps a higher proportion of men than women would disagree with me.
We do need some form of grading system to judge our own achievements and those of others, but are the grades sufficient? And do they account for the complex and yet undeniable differences between male and female climbers?
In reply to Anonymous:
I didn't say grade-pushing was important, nor that it was what we should all be aspiring to. I did say it was always going to be what the mags report (this debate was after all about magazine coverage) and I think that's true.
'Climbing with the boyfriend' was shorthand. You know what I mean, I think. Substitute 'for largely social and recreational reasons'.
And I resent 'churn out' inflammatory remarks. My inflammatory remarks are carefully thought out and targetted, I would have you know.
Anyway, much as I would love to inflame you further, I am afraid I have to leave to catch a plane to Crete for a week, so I shall just sign off by saying for the eighteenth time that this ascent was a damned sound effort evidently done in the purest of styles (as headpointing styles go), and jolly newsworthy.
I didn't say grade-pushing was important, nor that it was what we should all be aspiring to. I did say it was always going to be what the mags report (this debate was after all about magazine coverage) and I think that's true.
'Climbing with the boyfriend' was shorthand. You know what I mean, I think. Substitute 'for largely social and recreational reasons'.
And I resent 'churn out' inflammatory remarks. My inflammatory remarks are carefully thought out and targetted, I would have you know.
Anyway, much as I would love to inflame you further, I am afraid I have to leave to catch a plane to Crete for a week, so I shall just sign off by saying for the eighteenth time that this ascent was a damned sound effort evidently done in the purest of styles (as headpointing styles go), and jolly newsworthy.
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