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I just read on facebook that one of my routes, 'Munchies' at St Govans has been demolished in the winter storms, it was only an 'ok' HVS but it was mine, I feel a sincere sense of loss
In reply to Al Evans:
I find it a bit odd that people get like that about "their " routes. Surely it's just a bit of rock that you happened to climb first? You don't own it.
I find it a bit odd that people get like that about "their " routes. Surely it's just a bit of rock that you happened to climb first? You don't own it.
In reply to Al Evans:
As I mentioned in the other thread, this one of mine fell down http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24821
Ged, I agree there's no ownership, but somehow I feel an attachment to it as does Al, clearly. Maybe pride is a better word...? You must have done new routes? Do you not feel the same?
As I mentioned in the other thread, this one of mine fell down http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24821
Ged, I agree there's no ownership, but somehow I feel an attachment to it as does Al, clearly. Maybe pride is a better word...? You must have done new routes? Do you not feel the same?
In reply to jon:
Not really no. No more than a good route I'd done that somebody else made the first ascent of. I think my sense-of-loss-ometer is more dependent on quality of route than first ascent.
Not really no. No more than a good route I'd done that somebody else made the first ascent of. I think my sense-of-loss-ometer is more dependent on quality of route than first ascent.
In reply to Al Evans:
It's just the start that's gone, Al. It will be climbable when it cleans up, but it will be harder than HVS.
It's just the start that's gone, Al. It will be climbable when it cleans up, but it will be harder than HVS.
In reply to GDes:
Well I'm not sure about the 'sense-of-loss-ometer', I like to think all my routes give other people pleasure, some more than most. When (if) Jean Jeanie or Cracked Actor fall down as they have been going to for the past 30 years according to pundits I will be very saddened. Similar to many of my Gogarth routes. When you make a first ascent of a piece of rock you have a relationship with it that nobody else can ever have but it only aquires value if people share it and get fun and satisfaction out of it.
Munchies was a very minor route, but somebody here has posted that they enjoyed it. That's good enough for me.
> Not really no. No more than a good route I'd done that somebody else made the first ascent of. I think my sense-of-loss-ometer is more dependent on quality of route than first ascent.
Well I'm not sure about the 'sense-of-loss-ometer', I like to think all my routes give other people pleasure, some more than most. When (if) Jean Jeanie or Cracked Actor fall down as they have been going to for the past 30 years according to pundits I will be very saddened. Similar to many of my Gogarth routes. When you make a first ascent of a piece of rock you have a relationship with it that nobody else can ever have but it only aquires value if people share it and get fun and satisfaction out of it.
Munchies was a very minor route, but somebody here has posted that they enjoyed it. That's good enough for me.
In reply to Al Evans:
Yes, especially if it took loads of sweat and tears cleaning it in the first place.
> When you make a first ascent of a piece of rock you have a relationship with it that nobody else can ever have but it only aquires value if people share it and get fun and satisfaction out of it.
Yes, especially if it took loads of sweat and tears cleaning it in the first place.
In reply to Al Evans:
I really enjoyed Jene Jeanie on Saturday if that makes you feel any better! (as did the boys from Lancaster Uni I think). FWIW I don't think that will be falling down anytime soon, though there was a rather wobbly block at the top.
I really enjoyed Jene Jeanie on Saturday if that makes you feel any better! (as did the boys from Lancaster Uni I think). FWIW I don't think that will be falling down anytime soon, though there was a rather wobbly block at the top.
In reply to Al Evans:
The landslide on Portland between BFS and Battleship has put paid to half a dozen of my routes. I would have spent up to a day on each cleaning and bolting, so it's a shame that they won't be climbed for a long time (now that they have 5-10 metres of vertical choss and mud beneath them).
I think I've also lost a few boulder problem first ascents too, but I'm not so precious about them.
The landslide on Portland between BFS and Battleship has put paid to half a dozen of my routes. I would have spent up to a day on each cleaning and bolting, so it's a shame that they won't be climbed for a long time (now that they have 5-10 metres of vertical choss and mud beneath them).
I think I've also lost a few boulder problem first ascents too, but I'm not so precious about them.
In reply to Al Evans:
It is worse than that Al. Most of your routes in Lancashire are now under several feet of vegetation. Nothing new there then.
It is worse than that Al. Most of your routes in Lancashire are now under several feet of vegetation. Nothing new there then.
In reply to ByEek:
What? Even this?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=100213
A rare classic
What? Even this?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=100213
A rare classic
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Don't they do that on an annual basis?
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> A very good winter route of mine on Lochnagar has disappeared; yes a bit sad.
>
> A very good winter route of mine on Lochnagar has disappeared; yes a bit sad.
Don't they do that on an annual basis?
In reply to Al Evans:
Nah - that was bolted several years ago. It is now a pristine and regularly frequented line.
Nah - that was bolted several years ago. It is now a pristine and regularly frequented line.
In reply to Al Evans:
One of the South West's most active boulder first ascentionists described the area as having had a massive reset, and was very excited at the new first ascent chances!
One of the South West's most active boulder first ascentionists described the area as having had a massive reset, and was very excited at the new first ascent chances!
In reply to ByEek:
Arrrghhh! That's worse than it getting overgrown or falling down.
> Nah - that was bolted several years ago. It is now a pristine and regularly frequented line.
Arrrghhh! That's worse than it getting overgrown or falling down.
In reply to Al Evans:
I was at St Govans at the weekend, it is only the flake/block at the start that is fallen, the rest looks ok. I would have climbed it but my partner didn't want to go near the block.
> I just read on facebook that one of my routes, 'Munchies' at St Govans has been demolished in the winter storms, it was only an 'ok' HVS but it was mine, I feel a sincere sense of loss
I was at St Govans at the weekend, it is only the flake/block at the start that is fallen, the rest looks ok. I would have climbed it but my partner didn't want to go near the block.
In reply to Al Evans:
There's always the stuff at the Ruffs too Al. Popular as ever
> What? Even this?
> A rare classic
There's always the stuff at the Ruffs too Al. Popular as ever
In reply to jon:
I guess its a vice because it can lead to inflated ego. Satisfaction in my work springs to mind. Having a right relationship with those I work with and the work I do and pride gets in the way of that for me. It can put up barriers between us. The best thing I've read about ego is that it just needs keeping under control and perhaps pride can get in the way here. I'm not here to judge you, but pride being one of the seven deadly sins has always interested me the most. Greed lust etc more easy to understand. For me it turns out to be the most subtle of the sins.
I guess its a vice because it can lead to inflated ego. Satisfaction in my work springs to mind. Having a right relationship with those I work with and the work I do and pride gets in the way of that for me. It can put up barriers between us. The best thing I've read about ego is that it just needs keeping under control and perhaps pride can get in the way here. I'm not here to judge you, but pride being one of the seven deadly sins has always interested me the most. Greed lust etc more easy to understand. For me it turns out to be the most subtle of the sins.
Post edited at 08:50
In reply to Phil1919:
The warm glow of a job well done is very different from overweening pride.
Mick
The warm glow of a job well done is very different from overweening pride.
Mick
In reply to Phil1919:
Oouf, too deep for me Clint! But I disagree. If you have no pride when doing new routes then they'll be crap routes. By banging out route after route just for the sake of it just leads to crap routes. There's a lot of those around. By having a sense of pride they'll be as good as you can possibly make them. I think it's more than a sense of satisfaction - with no sense of pride you could well be satisfied with something less than perfect!.
Oouf, too deep for me Clint! But I disagree. If you have no pride when doing new routes then they'll be crap routes. By banging out route after route just for the sake of it just leads to crap routes. There's a lot of those around. By having a sense of pride they'll be as good as you can possibly make them. I think it's more than a sense of satisfaction - with no sense of pride you could well be satisfied with something less than perfect!.
Post edited at 09:51
In reply to jon:
I've just googled its meaning and apparently it can be either a vice or a virtue depending......! So I guess its different from the other vices. It was included in that film 'seven'. The model who had her nose cut off.
I've just googled its meaning and apparently it can be either a vice or a virtue depending......! So I guess its different from the other vices. It was included in that film 'seven'. The model who had her nose cut off.
In reply to Phil1919:
google tells me this
Pride is giving yourself the credit for something that God has accomplished. Pride is taking the glory that belongs to God alone and giving it to yourself. Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. That is why we give God the glory...for He alone deserves it.
Seems reasonable explanation for the biblical approach
google tells me this
Pride is giving yourself the credit for something that God has accomplished. Pride is taking the glory that belongs to God alone and giving it to yourself. Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. That is why we give God the glory...for He alone deserves it.
Seems reasonable explanation for the biblical approach
In reply to Phil1919:
I've no idea. It was you that brought it up.
> So why is pride one of the seven deadly sins.......fancy a stab at it?
I've no idea. It was you that brought it up.
In reply to Al Evans:
A nice little route that Al, quite a bit above the usual high tide mark as well, so it must have been some pretty large waves.
Might be at St Govan's this weekend so I might take a look.
A nice little route that Al, quite a bit above the usual high tide mark as well, so it must have been some pretty large waves.
Might be at St Govan's this weekend so I might take a look.
In reply to cander:
Classic example of an oxymoron …. in my opinion, of course. If I had to pick one defining feature of the biblical approach, it would be the near-complete absence of reasonable explanations.
> Seems reasonable explanation for the biblical approach
Classic example of an oxymoron …. in my opinion, of course. If I had to pick one defining feature of the biblical approach, it would be the near-complete absence of reasonable explanations.
In reply to jon:
How about Lust or greed........? Its worth being able to recognise a vice when you see one.
How about Lust or greed........? Its worth being able to recognise a vice when you see one.
In reply to mountain.martin:
Yeh, get the first re-ascent in
> A nice little route that Al, quite a bit above the usual high tide mark as well, so it must have been some pretty large waves.
> Might be at St Govan's this weekend so I might take a look.
Yeh, get the first re-ascent in
In reply to Al Evans:
Not wishing to worry you, but no ascents of Dreamboat Annie have been logged since November
Not wishing to worry you, but no ascents of Dreamboat Annie have been logged since November
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I really hope that route hasn't gone anywhere as it is one I really want to do
> Not wishing to worry you, but no ascents of Dreamboat Annie have been logged since November
I really hope that route hasn't gone anywhere as it is one I really want to do
In reply to Phil1919:
my favourite vice is the big one with the release lever so you don't have to wind the handle all the way
my favourite vice is the big one with the release lever so you don't have to wind the handle all the way
In reply to Al Evans:
I understand entirely. Putting up new routes, especially when a lot of "work" is involved is a fairly creative process, almost an inverse form of sculpture. In sculpture you impose a form on the rock, while in first routing you uncover the form of the rock and think out how (if) it can be climbed, protected, and so on.
The proof of my idea is the difference between a crag grid bolted to order, in this part of the world normally by the local guides, when the routes are all just straight up and down totally scare free. My routes (and those of other local developers) on the other hand are hand crafted so that you follow the lines of interest and weave about a little. The protection is enough, but not guide-safe carpet bolting (i.e. you could actually fall a bit). Overall better routes and something you certainly feel proud of and would not want to see fallen into the sea.
I understand entirely. Putting up new routes, especially when a lot of "work" is involved is a fairly creative process, almost an inverse form of sculpture. In sculpture you impose a form on the rock, while in first routing you uncover the form of the rock and think out how (if) it can be climbed, protected, and so on.
The proof of my idea is the difference between a crag grid bolted to order, in this part of the world normally by the local guides, when the routes are all just straight up and down totally scare free. My routes (and those of other local developers) on the other hand are hand crafted so that you follow the lines of interest and weave about a little. The protection is enough, but not guide-safe carpet bolting (i.e. you could actually fall a bit). Overall better routes and something you certainly feel proud of and would not want to see fallen into the sea.
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