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Bit of a weird one, but is there an instructional book that covers the rescuing of stuck climbers on an indoor wall (whether top roping or leading)? The local wall has a 'rescue bag' with various bits of kit in (slings, crabs, Petzl ID and Traxion i think), but just interested in how you'd go about recovering someone stuck if communication isn't succesful.
Cheers
Cheers
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
Lower the climber back to the ground.
If they refuse to be lowered you could easily go and rescue them. If belaying with a gri gri it's nice and simple to ascend the rope until you can attach them to your harness (via a sling), then abseil back down bringing them with you.
If you're not belaying them, climb an adjacent line and abseil back down picking them up (again via a sling) on your way.
There are other permutations to these scenarios, but it should always be pretty straightforward.
Lower the climber back to the ground.
If they refuse to be lowered you could easily go and rescue them. If belaying with a gri gri it's nice and simple to ascend the rope until you can attach them to your harness (via a sling), then abseil back down bringing them with you.
If you're not belaying them, climb an adjacent line and abseil back down picking them up (again via a sling) on your way.
There are other permutations to these scenarios, but it should always be pretty straightforward.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
I haven't seen much in the way of indoor rescue scenarios in a book. I can't think of any at the moment.
The best way to learn is attend a staff training day at a wall with their technical director. Frequent staff training and refreshers should be happening at all indoor walls and, if you climb there regularly, they should be pleased to let you attend if you ask nicely.
Ascending ropes to rescue a climber should always be a last resort due to the inherent dangers placed on yourself, the climber and a group you may be supervising. I have never seen the rescue bag at our wall being used.
I haven't seen much in the way of indoor rescue scenarios in a book. I can't think of any at the moment.
The best way to learn is attend a staff training day at a wall with their technical director. Frequent staff training and refreshers should be happening at all indoor walls and, if you climb there regularly, they should be pleased to let you attend if you ask nicely.
Ascending ropes to rescue a climber should always be a last resort due to the inherent dangers placed on yourself, the climber and a group you may be supervising. I have never seen the rescue bag at our wall being used.
In reply to A Mountain Journey: Cheers
Obviously comunication and lowering them is the first option, but if that isn't possible.
I'm just thinking of what if's.
How do you safegaurd yourself and climber (especialy if it's a child) against a fall whilst climbing to them?
Maybe I'm just overthinking it.
Obviously comunication and lowering them is the first option, but if that isn't possible.
I'm just thinking of what if's.
How do you safegaurd yourself and climber (especialy if it's a child) against a fall whilst climbing to them?
Maybe I'm just overthinking it.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
Tazer.
> Cheers
> Obviously comunication and lowering them is the first option, but if that isn't possible.
Tazer.
In reply to gdnknf:
Staff training day seems like the way forward yes.
Not having worked at a climbing wall and only rarely visiting them these days I don't see much in the way of indoor rescue. But I do have friends working at walls and ascending the rope is their method of choice due to its speed. A couple of years ago whilst sport climbing in Spain I watched a climber (who was under instruction) fall whilst leading, she hurt her ankle quite badly and a rapid response was required, the belayer / instructor ascended the rope to her and in probably less than a couple of minutes was back on the ground where she could be treated.
You will find some useful information in Libby Peters book Rock Climbing.
Staff training day seems like the way forward yes.
Not having worked at a climbing wall and only rarely visiting them these days I don't see much in the way of indoor rescue. But I do have friends working at walls and ascending the rope is their method of choice due to its speed. A couple of years ago whilst sport climbing in Spain I watched a climber (who was under instruction) fall whilst leading, she hurt her ankle quite badly and a rapid response was required, the belayer / instructor ascended the rope to her and in probably less than a couple of minutes was back on the ground where she could be treated.
You will find some useful information in Libby Peters book Rock Climbing.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
a. lower them down
b. lower them down
c. if they refuse to be lowered, get a long sharp stick then do a. or b.
a. lower them down
b. lower them down
c. if they refuse to be lowered, get a long sharp stick then do a. or b.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
When I used to take kids to a wall for work we were trained to talk them down and if that failed all the leisure centre staff reception staff were trained to belay so we would send for one of them and climb up the adjacent route and try to talk them down from the same height and descend with them and if that failed pull them off amd get them down.
We tried to avoid getting them stuck by practicing lowering a little way up so that they already tried it before they got to the top.
If you think you may be in that position then don't have all the kids off the ground initially. Once you have a group settled then you can establish procedures with them accorxi g to their ability to be sensible.
When I used to take kids to a wall for work we were trained to talk them down and if that failed all the leisure centre staff reception staff were trained to belay so we would send for one of them and climb up the adjacent route and try to talk them down from the same height and descend with them and if that failed pull them off amd get them down.
We tried to avoid getting them stuck by practicing lowering a little way up so that they already tried it before they got to the top.
If you think you may be in that position then don't have all the kids off the ground initially. Once you have a group settled then you can establish procedures with them accorxi g to their ability to be sensible.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
for anyone you think that might get wallfast, tie a rope to the back of their harness so you can pull them off.
for anyone you think that might get wallfast, tie a rope to the back of their harness so you can pull them off.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
Sometimes just lowering isn't an option. On my CWLA Training a few weeks ago we were given the scenario that a lead climber had grabbed a clip and had essentially impailed their hand on a carabiner.
I know this is an extremely rare occurrence but has actually happened to some individuals in the past.
Sometimes just lowering isn't an option. On my CWLA Training a few weeks ago we were given the scenario that a lead climber had grabbed a clip and had essentially impailed their hand on a carabiner.
I know this is an extremely rare occurrence but has actually happened to some individuals in the past.
In reply to Richy boy:
Throw them a knife and get them to remove their hand at the wrist. lower them down accordingly. Job done.
> Sometimes just lowering isn't an option. On my CWLA Training a few weeks ago we were given the scenario that a lead climber had grabbed a clip and had essentially impailed their hand on a carabiner.
> I know this is an extremely rare occurrence but has actually happened to some individuals in the past.
Throw them a knife and get them to remove their hand at the wrist. lower them down accordingly. Job done.
In reply to PPP:
The only reason I own a spatha is to cut cheese, cured meats and remove hands impaled on a QD.
The only reason I own a spatha is to cut cheese, cured meats and remove hands impaled on a QD.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
First and foremost, anyone attempting to rescue a stuck, scared or non cooperative climber should only do so if they have been suitably trained to do so. Secondly in most indoor situations this will only be wall staff, who hold a relevant qualification i.e Cwa.
There are many publications available on the subject of rescue, many of which take a lot of time to read, and most of what they teach do not take into account all of the variables and scenarios that can occur at your local wall...
Thirdly anyone who thinks they are doing the right thing, carrying out a "rescue" had better be absolutely sure that they have exhausted all possible simple ground techniques before ascending to give help. There are many very simple and effective ones that can be used with climbers who might become "stuck"' without having to put you at risk ... As it's already been mentioned..... Lower them off, tell them to climb down if they won't sit down in their harness, or better still attach a spare tag line to the rear of there harness to give a little downward assistance with out you having to leave the ground.
If you are considering self belaying with a gri gri, be warned........back up the down side of the rope with overhand knots in case they panic and pull your gri gri handle, whilst you try to help them !!!
First and foremost, anyone attempting to rescue a stuck, scared or non cooperative climber should only do so if they have been suitably trained to do so. Secondly in most indoor situations this will only be wall staff, who hold a relevant qualification i.e Cwa.
There are many publications available on the subject of rescue, many of which take a lot of time to read, and most of what they teach do not take into account all of the variables and scenarios that can occur at your local wall...
Thirdly anyone who thinks they are doing the right thing, carrying out a "rescue" had better be absolutely sure that they have exhausted all possible simple ground techniques before ascending to give help. There are many very simple and effective ones that can be used with climbers who might become "stuck"' without having to put you at risk ... As it's already been mentioned..... Lower them off, tell them to climb down if they won't sit down in their harness, or better still attach a spare tag line to the rear of there harness to give a little downward assistance with out you having to leave the ground.
If you are considering self belaying with a gri gri, be warned........back up the down side of the rope with overhand knots in case they panic and pull your gri gri handle, whilst you try to help them !!!
2
In reply to Richy boy:
So what was the answer (apart from amputation as someone beat me to it)?
If I had to guess it would be tie off their belay plate call for assistance get up the adjacent route deal with bleeding insitu and remove the clip from the wall leaving it in the hand get them down and off to a and e asap. Ambulance if its a kid.
Interested to know if thats what was said.
So what was the answer (apart from amputation as someone beat me to it)?
If I had to guess it would be tie off their belay plate call for assistance get up the adjacent route deal with bleeding insitu and remove the clip from the wall leaving it in the hand get them down and off to a and e asap. Ambulance if its a kid.
Interested to know if thats what was said.
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
What about if the leader climbs a long overhanging route and when lowering back down you realise the rope is to short with the leader in mid air some metres above the floor?? And cannot get back on the wall.....
What about if the leader climbs a long overhanging route and when lowering back down you realise the rope is to short with the leader in mid air some metres above the floor?? And cannot get back on the wall.....
In reply to Richy boy:
Really? Has it?
> Sometimes just lowering isn't an option. On my CWLA Training a few weeks ago we were given the scenario that a lead climber had grabbed a clip and had essentially impailed their hand on a carabiner.
> I know this is an extremely rare occurrence but has actually happened to some individuals in the past.
Really? Has it?
In reply to marsbar:
Something along those lines. An extra rope was also taken up and put through a higher quickdraw and attached to the injured individuals belay loop and then weighted from the ground. This was to ensure the injured individuals weight was no longer on the injured hand. The dogbone can then either be cut or if unable to do so then the bolt would be removed to allow the individual to be lowered to the ground. There was also a long discussion afterwards regarding what to do if the bolt was unable to be removed and talk of an airgun drill was mentioned.
In reply to Oceanrower:
>Really? Has it?
I am aware that this has happened outdoors. I am unsure if this has ever happened on an indoor wall. Hopefully not.
As instructors it is our duty to ensure that this is obviously prevented by teaching safe practice when clipping quick draws. However, that is not to say that the danger of this actually happening can be completely ruled out.
> If I had to guess it would be tie off their belay plate call for assistance get up the adjacent route deal with bleeding insitu and remove the clip from the wall leaving it in the hand get them down and off to a and e asap. Ambulance if its a kid.
Something along those lines. An extra rope was also taken up and put through a higher quickdraw and attached to the injured individuals belay loop and then weighted from the ground. This was to ensure the injured individuals weight was no longer on the injured hand. The dogbone can then either be cut or if unable to do so then the bolt would be removed to allow the individual to be lowered to the ground. There was also a long discussion afterwards regarding what to do if the bolt was unable to be removed and talk of an airgun drill was mentioned.
In reply to Oceanrower:
>Really? Has it?
I am aware that this has happened outdoors. I am unsure if this has ever happened on an indoor wall. Hopefully not.
As instructors it is our duty to ensure that this is obviously prevented by teaching safe practice when clipping quick draws. However, that is not to say that the danger of this actually happening can be completely ruled out.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Oi - That's my job. Back off, or else!
> (In reply to BikeClimbWalk)
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> [...]
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> Tazer.
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> [...]
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> [...]
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> Tazer.
Oi - That's my job. Back off, or else!
In reply to Gav Parker:
I like this game. I guess get some people to help haul them back up to the wall and make them downclimb and unclip until they can free enough rope to be lowered. If they are too tired then they should be allowed to rest/told to get on with it princess as appropriate.
Or you could fetch a step ladder.
I like this game. I guess get some people to help haul them back up to the wall and make them downclimb and unclip until they can free enough rope to be lowered. If they are too tired then they should be allowed to rest/told to get on with it princess as appropriate.
Or you could fetch a step ladder.
In reply to Gav Parker:
Some centres have massively thick crash pads (over 2 feet thick!). Depending on how high the climber is above the ground the crash pad can be deployed and the climber can be dropped on to the pad. Good aiming required...
If the climber can swing in to the wall then it is possible to attach their belay loop to the nearest quickdraw, untie, pull rope through quickdraws and then re-tie.
Some centres have massively thick crash pads (over 2 feet thick!). Depending on how high the climber is above the ground the crash pad can be deployed and the climber can be dropped on to the pad. Good aiming required...
If the climber can swing in to the wall then it is possible to attach their belay loop to the nearest quickdraw, untie, pull rope through quickdraws and then re-tie.
In reply to Gav Parker:
Find a group of children climbing at the centre.
Attach small children (< 20kg) to the dead end of the rope until sufficient are added to almost cancel the weight of the adult climber. Unclip the belay device, climber will lower gently to the ground.
Children are now dangling in air. One at a time ask them to unclip and drop down. Catch them.
> What about if the leader climbs a long overhanging route and when lowering back down you realise the rope is to short with the leader in mid air some metres above the floor?? And cannot get back on the wall.....
Find a group of children climbing at the centre.
Attach small children (< 20kg) to the dead end of the rope until sufficient are added to almost cancel the weight of the adult climber. Unclip the belay device, climber will lower gently to the ground.
Children are now dangling in air. One at a time ask them to unclip and drop down. Catch them.
1
1
In reply to Gav Parker:
Position a trampoline underneath the climber and ask him to untie. I'd enjoy watching this.
Position a trampoline underneath the climber and ask him to untie. I'd enjoy watching this.
In reply to Gav Parker:
Tie off the original belay plate. Get the belayer to tie onto another rope and start leading the route with a new belayer. As the original belayer climbs up the climber will come down. Once they are on the ground then the original belayer can be lowered down.
> What about if the leader climbs a long overhanging route and when lowering back down you realise the rope is to short with the leader in mid air some metres above the floor?? And cannot get back on the wall.....
Tie off the original belay plate. Get the belayer to tie onto another rope and start leading the route with a new belayer. As the original belayer climbs up the climber will come down. Once they are on the ground then the original belayer can be lowered down.
3
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Actually, the method is to clip into their belay loop which is load bearing. You can attach your own belay loop to theirs with two opposing quickdraws.
You can then abseil with the person attached. They have to follow.
This is a documented method of recovery. Whether you ascend the belay end of the same rope or a seperate rope depends on the anchor safety situation.
I rescued a climber twice my size this way at the roaches.
He was on a ledge with an injury. I rigged my own rope as his had failed and got the attending paramedics approval before moving the casualty. He was lowered in control, straight onto a stretcher.
Actually, the method is to clip into their belay loop which is load bearing. You can attach your own belay loop to theirs with two opposing quickdraws.
You can then abseil with the person attached. They have to follow.
This is a documented method of recovery. Whether you ascend the belay end of the same rope or a seperate rope depends on the anchor safety situation.
I rescued a climber twice my size this way at the roaches.
He was on a ledge with an injury. I rigged my own rope as his had failed and got the attending paramedics approval before moving the casualty. He was lowered in control, straight onto a stretcher.
In reply to Redsetter:
I read this and thought you were being sarcastic. Sadly it seems not!
> First and foremost, anyone attempting to rescue a stuck, scared or non cooperative climber should only do so if they have been suitably trained to do so. Secondly in most indoor situations this will only be wall staff, who hold a relevant qualification i.e Cwa.
I read this and thought you were being sarcastic. Sadly it seems not!
1
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
Avoid the situation happening in the first place ,I instructed at a wall for 16 years ,if there was the slightest doubt a child or adult would "freeze " on the wall ,just simply attach a rope in the back of the harness that way they can be pulled away from the wall and lowered down .
Avoid the situation happening in the first place ,I instructed at a wall for 16 years ,if there was the slightest doubt a child or adult would "freeze " on the wall ,just simply attach a rope in the back of the harness that way they can be pulled away from the wall and lowered down .
In reply to BikeClimbWalk:
Indoor climbing by Pete Hill has it all in, but books can be misinterpreted
just leave it to the pros, i have heard of some CWA training coursers not having it in but it was on mine and it was certainly part of my assessment.
Indoor climbing by Pete Hill has it all in, but books can be misinterpreted
just leave it to the pros, i have heard of some CWA training coursers not having it in but it was on mine and it was certainly part of my assessment.
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