UKC

Hi guys. A friend on Sunday suggested entering the Monikie 10k and i saw little reason not to. I'm relatively recently back into running (last 2months) preferring much longer trail runs (at least 12mi). Looking over my data in that context the fastest 5k I've run is 25mins and 10k of 59mins. I've not yet felt like I've come to an endurance limit, but feel much more limited trying to run at a greater pace. So two Qs:
1) how do I improve this
2) what little can I do in the limited time available b4 a week on Sunday?

Thanks for any ideas or advice!

In reply to contrariousjim: probably not a lot you can do before the race other than not break yourself. Most training impact at this point will be psychological.

Your pace difference between 5k and 10k suggests either your aerobic system is under developed, or you have yet to learn how much suffering you can sustain. The latter is best developed in racing, whilst the former is conceptually easy to achieve, but takes time - it's just a case of putting in lots of easy volume.

It depends upon how much you're willing to put in time wise, but I'd be inclined to just get out there and take it steady, keeping your heart rate fairly low. You can add a bit of speed work for variety if it'll keep you entertained, but until your times plateau and you convert more tightly it'll not be the most effective use of your time.

Hth and have fun.

In reply to contrariousjim:

Well you know you can run the distance, so it isn't just about completing, this is a good start. Obviously what training you do in the next two weeks isn't going to make much difference to your fitness, so what you need to understand is pacing and what it feels like to run a good 10k.

I find 10k really hard, 5k is a pain fest, but at least it is a short one, 10k is nearly as fast, but obviously lasts longer, half marathon is run at a more comfortable pace with the challenge generally being about maintaining it over the last 3 or 4 miles.

You 10k should not be much more than 5k PB x 2 + 1-1.30 minutes. Mine is 5k PB x 2 + 54 seconds. Pace yourself on that basis. If you are not sure how fast you are based on current fitness, run a mile hard in training after a warm up and work it out from that, for example if you run a single mile in 7.40, aim to run at 8.00 pace.

It will hurt if you do it properly, don't use this as an excuse to slow down. Run, but have an easy week next week.

In reply to The New NickB:

Thanks. That's really helpful. It seems like I should be aiming for about 52mins. The last time I did any kind of event like this was at school more than 18yrs ago, and have mostly run just for the feeling of freedom I get from it. I will run 10k a couple of times just to get the feel of it and then take an easier week next week. When should my last run be before the event, and should it be a longer than 10k easier one, 10k easy or hard, or less than 10k easy or hard? What should I eat beforehand. I normally eat muesli about 2hrs before a morning run. What else should I be doing diet wise.

Also, for future runs if I want to improve my pace at that kind of distance, I've read about intervals online. Like running hard for 1min, recovery for 2mins run hard for a min recover etc. Is that the kind of thing to be doing, and over what kind of total distance. Also I remember for climbing training it was always doing kind of structures like power 1st, power-endurance 2nd and endurance 3rd within a day, and within a weekly structure. Does the same kind of idea exist in running?

Anyway, thanks very much for your help!

J

In reply to contrariousjim:

It's valuable to run the 10K to get a feel, and perhaps 10miles a week before so you are confident at the distance. I'd be tempted to do something like 10mins hard, 10mins jog and 10mins hard again to get a feel for the effort level.

Food wise I'd stick to the muesli, but 2 hrs is a bit short for me - 3 at least, but it's your stomach , not mine

Intervals are very good, but for 10k something like 3mins hard, 1 easy , , times 5 or 6 is a better session. 1 on 2 off is not really long enough. There is available a lot of structurisation in running training if you want it, and there's a lot more than is described in climbing.

In reply to contrariousjim:

When your last run should be and when it should be is very personal, but generally to get your best performance you should feel pretty fresh, I would will run the day before, but pretty easy and I am used to doing lots of miles, you should have a good idea about how your body recovers. Get lots of sleep and go with whatever works for you food wise, you don't want grastric problems on the day.

Longer term training, most speed work is based on some sort of internals session. The general run being the shorter the interval or longer the recovery, the faster the running. You will probably want to try longer intervals than 1 minute. Hundreds of different interval sessions to look at, but generally I would suggest longer ones, such 4 x 1 mile with 3 minutes recovery, fartlek, pyramids etc. Speed work is difficult on your own, takes a lot of will power.

In reply to The New NickB:


And if you can, join a club or find other people to do the intervals with. It's very easy to sit at a single pace if you're training on you own, which is not what you want to do if you want to speed up. Running with other people makes it easier to keep the effort going in intervals when it starts getting hard work.

You might also like to consider 5km parkruns. These are a fantastic institution - free timed 5km runs every Saturday morning, in a park, quite possibly near you.

Have a look on http://www.parkrun.org.uk/ to find your nearest one.

In reply to contrariousjim:

I'd just keep running.. occassional park runs, join a club.. just build your aerobic base, early on you'll speed up by doing almost anything. A few intervals will help, 400 hard, too easy.. 200 hard 200 easy

re 2.. no.. just run steady early on, so you'd be able to talk if needed..

In reply to contrariousjim:

Rested yesterday and ran a 10.5k earlier this evening in unpleasant wind and rain. Warmed up and tried to not go out too hard, and speed up but got quickly breathless and couldn't hold my usual breathe in for 2 and out for 3 paces and had to stop twice briefly during first 5k. It was sore for first 5k, but felt like it got easier after that and my pace v slightly increased, which seemed weird. Best 5k was 25min07 and 10k was 50min40s. Definitely felt like a new evperience on the lungs/heart, but legs didn't feel bad.

In reply to tony:

Thanks for the heads up on this. Decided to do my first park run to get experience of running with other people before next w/e and what pacing feels like and run it in 22:27. I'm obviously slow going downhill compared to other people, and relatively better at going uphill, which was interesting, so I'll need to work on this! It was really good gun, esp because I bumped into a few people I knew too!

In reply to contrariousjim:

Great, good to see the improvement, no matter how hard you think you are pushing yourself on your own, for most people, it takes a bit of racing to see they can push themselves a fair bit harder. Adjust your 10k target a bit now, sub 46!

In reply to contrariousjim:

Downhill lean in, fast feet, often smaller strides but make sure you don't brake and long strides can lead to braking through your quads..

The upper body is a throttle, when running down hill just move it around and you'll feel yourself speed up or brake..

Well done, keep at it, once you get to sub 21 you'll be getting towards the front of the park runs, depending on the area, so that should give you a lift, just dont be discouraged if you dont always pb.

Good luck next week.. I'd look for around 46 as nick says, 10k's are hard work and hard to get right so just see how it goes and keep learning.

In reply to IainRUK and Nick:

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, it really is appreciated. I've had a blasted cold since Sunday and am wondering whether to get out for a run, but don't want to make it worse!

In reply to contrariousjim:

general advice is above the neck train, below the neck rest.. don't do hard sessions either way but if its a head cold I'd run, but a chesty cough no.

In reply to IainRUK:

Thanks for that Iain. I went for a run yesterday and don't feel the cold is any worse for it, which is a gr8 general lesson learnt about that sort of exercise. I guess I wouldn't let a cold stop a day out climbing or trip to the hills, but I've not actively pursued running or cycling inspite of a cold. Having said that I felt strangely shivery afterwards! But it definitely felt good to get out again!

In reply to IainRUK, nick et al:

Did the 10k today. Almost didn't run given a sore back developed over the last two runs I did Tues and Thurs. Found it difficult to pick a pace and found I had a few overtake me during the first 5k, but kept at back of a fastish group, scared of going too fast and running out of steam. Then found I was overtaking a few every so often in the last 5k. But, it felt a grind, and yet my resp rate could have gone up a bit. Maybe a bit of lack of will? Then at the end I had a burst over the last 0.5k and felt like recovered ok. Time was 47:27 on strava but not sure of the official time. So not the 46 I maybe should have got. Anyway, pleased to have done it, and for the experience, and now need to let the back get better. Not sure what it was, maybe a posture thing, leaning back too much, though my posture is usually bad the other way, leaning over microscopes all day at work?!! Thanks for all the advice!

In reply to contrariousjim:

Good one, 10k's are hard to get right though so don't worry, its still 5 mins quicker than you wanted..

5k's are much easier because you can normally hold on, 10k's are go out fairly fast and hold on but for much longer.. I think they are about the worst distance to race and easy to go off to hard and slow off or too slow and not gain the time back..