UKC

I would much prefer to buy gear from a climbing shop. I appreciate the fact such specialist places exist and the range of products they have. However looking at the cost of buying stuff from such shops compared with online and elsewhere has made me think. For instance:

Guidebook: costs 30% more
harness: 35% more
shoes: 90% more

I don't mind paying a little more from a specialist shop but the difference in cost for me is too much to justify. This works out at roughly £60 more on just 3 items. At these prices it feels more donating to a charity.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who will choose the cheaper option here.

So I'm wondering if climbing shops have a future? Do they need to change the way they do business to survive?

In reply to stp:

Most Climbing shops will Price Match genuine online prices if you ask, in my Experience.

In reply to stp:

A lot of smaller shops will also supply online, this widens their market. In the case of The Outdoor Shop in MK, for instance, this has become their majority business.

Neil

In reply to stp:

Having a climbing section in an outdoor shop seems one way to go.

As you can buy climbing gear online much cheaper as you say, it seems evident plenty of outlets already are focusing on this online model.

I think its a good thing for the most part, inefficient distribution methods (as evidenced by cost) dying in favour of more lean businesses.

If I want advice or opinions I look online first, not to the guy who sells me the thing in question. Sometimes his opinion is good, but if hes good at business he'll be profit driven.

In reply to stp:
I think you need to shop around a bit. I've never bought any of those items online, I wouldn't buy shoes or harness without trying them on.
S&R and Cotswold do 15% or 20% BMC discount, and if that's not cheaper than online they'll price match anyway. Admittedly they aren't "proper" independent shops, but they are the only shops near me, and they are real shops where you can see and try on stuff.
Last guidebook purchase I made, Cotswolds couldn't find the price, so just used Amazon's price. And, they gave me the BMC discount off that!

In reply to stp:

Its true that specialist shops are threatened - we are about to lose Wildtrak in Newcastle, (its web sales may survive?)and Nevisport is also gone. However, given the right customer service, a good shop with added online sales should keep going.

Over the years I've been so impressed with Needlesports in Keswick - if you are in the area, you get good advice and good prices, and their online service is really fast and with very reasonable postage - for me, excellent customer service is worth more than a marginal cost saving, but as others have said, most shops will meet a genuine low competitor's price.

Dave

In reply to stp:

My father and I have bought the majority of our climbing and mountaineering equipment from Needlesports in Keswick (who also have a successful online shop).

The shop is staffed by climbers who have a huge amount of experience between them. Nobody is ever too busy to thoroughly discuss the customer's needs and help them to find the right product (and if that product happens to be something they don't sell, they will happily send you elsewhere for it!).

Steve has always been very helpful and supportive of climbers and their ambitions in advice and products. Emily helped my girlfriend choose her first pair of rock shoes; Cal has given me an enormous amount of advice on the alps and Harry is a great person to chat about routes and gear and sorted my dad out with his first set of crampons and axe.

Prices are reasonable when you include all that knowledge and experience, however, if that isn't enough, often a 10% BMC discount is given.

I don't think this shop will ever disappear, and that's a good thing.

If you're reading this Steve, keep up the good work! Cheers.

In reply to needvert:


Yeah a very good point, I hadn't even thought of that. And ask on UKC you won't get one person's opinion but more like 40. I suppose Amazon have been pretty good at capitalizing on people's opinions about their products. They've made their web site a valuable resource regardless of what it sells.

In reply to Hooo:


Yeah, but I've just got shoes from Decathlon where I could try them on. £39 vs about £75 for the cheapest in a climbing shop. Sure they're not the best (and those are over £100 in climbing shops now) but they're perfectly adequate for what I need. Regardless of brand all shoes will be worn out in less than year if I climb regularly anyway because the rubber wears out.



That's a pretty hefty discount for BMC members. I'm wondering how that works? Free advertising for those shops somewhere. On their own web site they have their own BMC shop and members only get 10% off there.

In reply to stp:


I think you get what you pay for to a certain extent. I have looked at the Decathlon shoes and don't particularly rate them. Similarly, much of the cheaper non-branded cams are ok, but heavier and clunkier.

At the end of the day, the value added in a shop is the service and you simply have to ask yourself, what is that worth? Presumably, it isn't worth £20 per item for you?

In reply to stp:

Shops in walls tend to be very good in my (limited) experience of them, since they only sell climbing stuff and presumably they don't have to overheads (in terms of rent) of a big shop. I buy most of my stuff at mine (the Barn, also selling online). They are also pretty good at ordering stuff in if I ask for it.

In reply to stp:

Buy all my stuff (new ) from shops on Ebay.

Cotswold etc don't try hard enough.

In reply to stp:

Have a read of these signs, I saw them stuck up in the window of what used to be Mountain Shack in Worcester last Christmas:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/toby-northern_light/14120884031/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/toby-northern_light/14124194195/

In reply to andymac:

That's great for your wallet, but with the numbers of decent climbing shops dwindling, it makes it harder for those emergency "i forgot the guidebook" purchases that bricks and mortar shops are so good for.

This is a debate that goes far beyond climbing shops... I do think in general humans don't value good service enough to pay for it and as a result if you want something a little bit specialist these days you need to order on-line and wait for the postman to knock on your door (or stealth deliver a "you weren't in" card)

In reply to needvert:

Or she.

If it's a decent climbing shop they'll give good advice so people want to return, it's not just about making one sale. Good advice is better service, and better service ensures return custom so the business survives and profits can be sustained/increased.

See above about Needle Sports (which I've not bought from as it happens, too injured/skint)...

In reply to balmybaldwin:


Well for me, like anything, its about how much it actually costs. £60 extra for maybe five minutes advice in shop is not really good value. And as an experienced climber chances are I'll know more than them anyway.

For my £60 I could probably get a one to one coaching session and learn a lot more.

In reply to stp:

shoes 90% more - never
you cannot buy a £100 pair of shoes for £10 online

In reply to tombawimba:

That would be 900% more.

Paying 190 instead of 100 would be 90% more.

In reply to needvert:



A voice of wisdom!

In reply to tombawimba:

That's not the maths the OP stated, that would be 900% more. A pair of £95 boots in the shop at £50 online would be 90% more.

In reply to needvert:

Beat me to it!

In reply to stp:

I reckon Needlesports represent everything a good climbing shop should be.

I think that geography plays a part too.
I can't imagine a specialist climbing shop surviving in the flatlands of say Ipswich or Oxford (although I would be happy to be proved wrong if such places exist)

In reply to stp:

As long as I continue to buy specialist shiny things, I will continue to buy them from a climbing shop (and, in all probability, from Needlesports - they are truly fantastic) on principle. I think the world would be a much poorer place if GO Outdoors represented the epitome of in-store expertise.

I can't stand people who 'showroom'. The ones who try on all the gear, find their size and then go off and buy it on-line from Sport Pursuits or the like.

If the on-line shopping experience has short comings, why kill the better alternative?

In reply to Jim Lancs:


Presumably bacause it's cheaper. I'm not saying it's right, but it's certainly understandable.

In reply to Jim Lancs:

I did the opposite last weekend. Having spent a bit of time online looking for a new waterproof jacket, and bringing the choice down to 2 products available in several retailers for the same price, I then happened to walk into Braemar Mountain Sports to see one of the jackets there on sale. Still cost me £10 more than the online sale price, but I was able to try it on for size, feel the weight of the fabric, check out the colour etc. Then as I was leaving I spied some walking shoes on sale and bought those too - saving myself hours of scouring online to perhaps get a tenner off the price and run the risk of them not fitting. I seldom spend money on myself and actually enjoyed the experience, compared to the lingering sense of "did I choose the right product/size" that I get from buying online.

I know we all say we hate shopping and would rather be climbing. But come on; who of us doesn't get a bit kid-in-a-toyshop when we walk into an outdoor shop?

Use em or lose em.

Nick

In reply to stp:

Interesting choice of products:
Shoes - unless you're going for the exact model you had last time, you almost certainly need to try on for size. Even then, the same size and model can vary over time in my experience. If you're looking to try a different type/brand then you certainly have to try on, and ideally compare by climbing a few holds. This is where a traditional shop wins hands down,and paying an extra £20 is well worth while.
Harnesses - again if buying for the first time, then swallow the difference and go to a shop where you can try on a few and compare. They last five years (minimum), so again, even if you're replacing like with like,there's no guarantee that five years down the line, the same model will be the same.
Guide books - these are generic products, so you might as well buy from Amazon, and put the saving towards the extra you'll pay for the above bits.

Sustainable retail businesses have by and large realised they need an integrated related solution - so that might mean:

A 'bricks and mortar' shop for passing trade and the sort of purchase discusses above

An e-commerce store, properly supported with SEO and digital advertising

An Amazon Marketplace store, for generic products like the guidebooks

An E-bay store for low margin or clearance items

In reply to tehmarks:


I agree, Outside are another great climbing shop, I've never ever had a bad experience with them.

In reply to stp:

I think the way forwerd is intergrating great climbers caffs with an outdoor shop, such as outside in hathersage. I absolutely love the shop and go there on every peak trip. I never go in there intending to buy any top end goods because it is so expensive and they dont offer any discounts (they are missing out on that front), but i still end up spending money there almost every time, ether for the cafe, and/or impulse buys for ods and ends or things on sale which catch my eye. and as someone else has mentioned the location of an outdoor shop is crucial, 10 mins from stanage is a winner!

My other favourite outdoor shop is Up and Under in Cardiff. they have a great relationship with the university mountaineering club, offering discounts, lock-ins/movie nights plus great customer service ensuring that they tap into the local market with benefit to all.

So to sumerise: outdoor shops in upland areas can florish by incorporating a great cafe into the shop, and outdoor shops in lowland areas should set up partnerships with local groups such as universities to guarentee trade.

In reply to popebenedictus:

I did always wonder how Peglers in Arundel survived for exactly that reason. Sadly they didn't.

Neil