UKC

Hey guys, I'm looking for some good recommendations for E3's and E4's that have good protection in the Peak. Trying to push myself on to more of this grade as have recently been training to build up strenght and it seems to be paying off! I'd just rather get some recommendations than end up sandbagging myself on some bold, scary stuff!

Thanks for your time and advice!

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Grit or Limestone? or Both?

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Now it's rather hot, I would rather be on the limestone if I'm climbing at my limit. I haven't done any E4s on Peak lime, but (this is becoming a theme with me) Chee Tor is a brilliant place to climb E3. It's a slightly forlorn and neglected crag, but this year it's seeing some action:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=584403

Absent Friends is a brilliant, very well protected E3. Technical wall climbing of the highest quality with gear all over the crux.

Rave On is a strenuous laybacking E3 on big holds with bags of gear (which can be a bit awkward to place, being a layback).

42nd Street is brilliant, one of those bold but ultimately safe routes with a thrilling run-out.

Of Youth is good wall climbing on small holds. A bit bold, but OK.

There are 2 classic E3/4 routes, Splintered Perspex and Queer Street (always been given E3 6a, but everyone falls off). The classic E4, Mortlock's Arete is supposed to very hard for the grade and the top pitch is bold. The other E4s also bold, so maybe not such a good crag for safe E4!

On High Tor, Lyme Crime (E3) is safe and hard. There are a few hard-looking E3 6as that must have good gear otherwise the level of sandbaggery is simply outrageous.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Happy for both to be honest! Maybe a slight preference for quarried grit over natural grit though, but I'm happy to give anything a go as long as there's a good amount of gear, or if the gear is in the right place i.e. no decking potential if the gear holds!

In reply to Jon Stewart: Nice one man, going to have a gander at those now. I've been meaning to get over to High Tor and Chee Tor so this seems like a good excuse. 42nd street sounds like a good one to go at - "A fine and popular pitch to push your E-grade on. It has a few bold sections but overall it is low in the grade and adequately protected if you stay cool."

Sounds like my bag!

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

It's not really low in the grade. Compared to an E3 in Pembroke, it's pretty hard, but that's the Peak for you.

In reply to Jon Stewart: I've never thought of the peak as overly graded, but that's probably because it's where I've done most of my climbing. S'pose you get the extra points for exposure and serious position on sea cliffs and the like!

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:
What Jon said, Chee Tor and High Tor are brill, The Beest at Beeston Tor isn't too bad too, Black Grub (also Beeston) is good fun, but not really E3 (F6b?) and my two favourite E3s in the White Peak are Mad Dogs and Englishmen (Cheedale) and Adjudicator Wall (Dovedale), both full on, both very safe, both utter class.

I really like Boulevard at Lawrencefield, I think its easier than Billy Whizz, but I would say that being short.

Across the road, Gates of Mordor is good and safe, pumpy though. Twikker is a favorite of mine, hard to onsight, but the sort of route to go back to and never get bored by once you know the trick. Time for Tea is easy if you have the head.

I seem to be shit at natural grit E4s, but Traveller in Time at Ramshaw, is uncharacteristically soft for that crag, cheeky gear beta recommended for the top.

J2V

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Good reminder, I need to do those in the next few weeks while I'm on holiday. After that, I'll be working all the time and both my climbing and UKC posting will decline to almost nothing. It's going to be dreadful.

Have you done Dragonflight at WCJ? Another of those E3s that just sits on own somewhere weird.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


No, don't know it.

Had a go at Mortlock's Arete yet? I never quite got round to it.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

I was chatting to a guy at the Tor the other day about it, unbelievable difficult I think. I've still got Splintered Perspex and Queer Street to try, and given how the so-called soft E3s all feel totally at my limit, I' not terribly confident. The difference in grading between there and Pembroke is significant - E3s in Pembroke have got massive holds and loads of gear.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Queer Street is (utterly) desperate for E3. Mortlocks isn't desperate for E4.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

+1 to all of the above, esp. Adjudicator Wall.
Never seem very happy on Robert Brown 1st pitch on The Tor, seems sketchy for the grade, but absolutely brilliant, esp. with the direct finish up the thin flake off the debauchery ledge.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:
Wings of unreason. Safe, and must be soft as I could do it.

Telli. People say it's rubbish for a first E3, but it's the first E3 I did that I actually believed was a grade higher than E2. I enjoyed the moves, but it's really short

In reply to jon:


Yes fully agree with Jon on those.

Also Splintered Perspex is incredibly good (just one hard move) by a peg.

Also as others have said
Absent Friends is a good well-protected hardish E3.
Rave On is a strenuous laybacking E3 on big holds with bags of gear.

Black Grub is very amenable at E3.

Adjudicator's Wall is much harder since the loss of a hold.

I wouldn't describe the following routes as well-protected even though they are fairly safe as they have biggish fall potential:
42nd Street is a bold but ultimately safe route.
Note the same could be said for the harder Ceramic (E4) (on the same crag). It is scary and you could take a very big fall if you blow it but you shouldn't hit anything.
I wouldn't rush to do Lyme Crime as the bolt is very poor and probably would not hold much of a fall.

Dragonflight is bold and quite serious.

As for grit:
Twikker is very good and well-protected (but strenuous) as is the Gates of Mordor.

Tippler Direct (E3) on Stanage is hard for one move and you fall into space.

The Strangler (E4) on Stanage is bold but safe (and it's easy to put the gear in) and not too hard.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Agree with the lime recommendations (apart from adjudicator wall and the high tor ones but that's only because i've not been on them and have no opinion).
mad dogs is just outstanding - one i'd wanted to do for ages and did on the right day. topping out was one of those perfect moments.
as for queer st - i failed the same way many people seem to on the onsight. there is a less obvious way of doing it which i found after dangling for a while which i think does make it e3 5c - albeit still hard for the grade.

grit - tippler direct seems an obvious one - especially if you're quite strong, and black hawk bastion which is another one that is quite tricky to onsight but totally safe and very good
bionics wall at new mills torrs is a very good, very safe e4. no hard moves either

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

Remember this one Geoff? - 'Welcome to Ceramic Airlines. We hope you enjoy your flight...'

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:


I was aware of the loss of a thread on the traverse, which I thought would have been too high to use as a hold. Or are you talking about something else?

In reply to Alex@home:


Thin and bold to reach the first gear no?

Reminded me of Wee Doris, which admittedly I padded out.

In reply to jon:


Sounds familiar - a bit "booky", perhaps?

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Some tings ive got my eye on are jetrunner at bamford, e4 6a but meant to be not too hard.
Calvary at Stanage (e4 6a)
Time for tea at millstone (e3 5c)
Fading star at stanage is a safe climb with a hard grade.

imho stuff at high tor is usually pretty top end for the grade, so be prepared!

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Sorry I meant loss of a thread.

In reply to jon:


I know someone who took that flight 3 times!

The extension is much more scary and in my opinion undergraded. I remember seeing Chris Addy take a massive whipper off it when he couldn't take a hand off to clip the peg. His last gear was under the roof 20 feet below him. He finished up not far from the deck.

In reply to dr_botnik:




I thought Calvary was reasonably well geared until someone fell off from the top and ripped out their friends and decked it. You can't be too careful...

Time for tea (as now described with the left-hand finish) is bold and thin. A fall from the crux will mean a huge fall but you shouldn't hit the ground. I wouldn't describe it as well-protected.

In reply to dr_botnik:


It's generally a pretty amenable crag actually, Darius is a well known sandbag, and Robert Brown is kind of spooky somehow, but most other stuff is good to go, including classics like Flaky Wall and Supersonic (which I admittedly followed).

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:


But I would describe it as a path - after the bloody awful crack to get up to the easy bit.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Perseus is OK at E3 but bold and a bit loose. Lyme Crime is desperate (and apparently dangerous too!). I might be OK on Robert Brown as I can generally deal with spooky. The other E3s just look so hard as to be utterly unreasonable - I'll be trying Flaky Wall first.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
I thought Lyme Crime was good, did you try it in one pitch? Didn't do that myself although I like the idea of trying that for a man test. Chris Craggs's bolt is well past its sell by date, but I seem to remember gear nearby? The top pitch was nicely sustained at 5b.

Can't remember Perseus or Laurin, and not done Nightmare of Brown Donkeys. The route I backed off from (twice) was M1, that block near the bottom just looks well dodgy to me. The Delicatessen crux was a bugger every time I've done it, but I've never actually fallen off it.

So would you say grading at High Tor was 'top end'?

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

How's your bouldering? If it's a strong point you could get on some one move wonders like King Kong (Stanage), Stormbringer (Gardoms) or Golden Days (Black Rocks).

Long but safe runouts? the Strangler (Stanage), Jetrunner (Bamford), Time For Tea (Millstone)
Browns Eliminate Direct (Froggatt) although for the first crux you'll want to be careful.

Stamina fests? I know nothing about stamina but there is a ticklist on here that recommends trad routes for sport climbers. Should be helpful.

I've done most of these routes but not all of them and I'm confident none of them will prove to be fatal if they go wrong ( as long as you can place gear).

I wouldn't recommend Calvary unless you're told what gear you need. It would be very easy to get high and find that you've used the critical cam sizes lower down. With potential to really hurt yourself.

The problem with Grit routes is that they're very often only easy if they're dangerous. Great for an intense buzz but scary to push grades on

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Here it is
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=316

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:


I've taken the flight once and it's huge. Got on the route on a hot day and got wrong-handed somewhere at the top - tried to match and sweaty hands just pinged off the hold. Scary, but safe fall.

In reply to Jonny2vests:
There is gear a little below the old bolt on lyme cryme but the run out from there to the pre-crux break is very long. I thought it was much scarier than Robert brown.

I was going to add some suggestions to this thread but they've all been mentioned! Apart from lc id back them all.


Looked at dragonflight recently when there bouldering, looks quite runout above the crux but it depends whether you can get gear in a small groove crack just above it. Not sure I'd bother taking my rack just for it, didn't look fantastic tbh.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Mad Dogs and Englishmen was so called because it was a stifling hot day when we did it, so heat is no excuse.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

The Pillar is a very underated route at High Tor, I see it now gets E5 but must be a soft touch at that.

In reply to Ian Parsons:


Ah, very good. Had to think about that one! Sadly so obscure that can only be appreciated by us two. Nevertheless, its origin was Ceramic. Wasn't it a cartoon by Alan J in the original Peak Limestone topo?

In reply to 1234None:


A friend of mine (I wasn't belaying but couldn't bear to watch and ran away) did the run out but was too pumped to clip the peg and, in a panic, stuck his finger through it instead. Eventually, he had no choice but to take it out.....

In reply to jon:

Your lesson in local French pronunciation clearly lodged somewhere within the murky recesses! At least, I think that bit's French not Swiss. Had completely forgotten that there was an earlier version, until you inserted "Ceramic"; I think you're probably right about the origin.

In reply to jon:



I remembered the quote and yes you are right. It was in the Rockfax Peak Limestone.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


No I struggled up the first pitch on second and led the top pitch. I found the crux moves absurdly hard for 5c. It might be because I'd just done Perseus and was a bit tired (completely exhausted actually).

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Chris Cragg's bolt? I thought it was placed by Steve Bancroft and Adey Hubbard in 1975 and described as 'a golo of doubtful holding power'. Or is there something I should know? BTW The route is actually Lyme Cryme.

In reply to Al Evans:


I'll no doubt I'll have that going round my head when I'm sweating off the holds!

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

>I thought Calvary was reasonably well geared until someone fell off from the top and ripped out their friends and decked it. You can't be too careful...

I thought the guy who got killed on Calvary was stopped perfectly fine by the gear but inverted and banged his head? Maybe a different incident. But yeah, not that safe, I'd say - takes some engineering ability to make it so.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You may be right I just assumed he had decked. I think some of his friends must have ripped. I was shocked when I heard about it. I had led it twice at the time and I had thought that the friends were bomb proof. Makes you think...

In reply to Jonny2vests:


I replaced the bolt in Darius, not Lyme Crime. I believe it was 36 years ago!


Chris

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

A rib punctured his lung IIRC - something that could happen on any arrested fall.

Calvary (or Lyme Cryme)isn't safe compared to other E3/4's available.

Benchmarked against Rhapsody maybe..

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:
I'm following this thread with interest as I want the same information.

Of the e3's I have done which have previously been mentioned I can offer my thoughts on them:

Robert Brown and Perseus at High Tor both felt easier to me than Darius. I had no issues with the protection or the climbing. Robert Brown had a crux going sideways away from low gear but it is never hard and the gear would stop you getting hurt.

Lyme Cryme I fell off the crux first pitch next to the peg. It held. It 'looked okay' to me. I then finished the route no problem. I think this is definitely the hardest of the 3 e3's I have mentioned at High Tor but it is still quite soft compared to grit e3's in general.

At New Mills I did two e4's this week. The 3 star one is Bionics Wall. I backed off half way first attempt. It feels scary as you do not realise how easy it is to get to the high pegs. The gear is marginal up to that point. Then it is safe as you have 4 pegs and gear to the top. It is never that hard. It is just psychological to get to the first pegs. Once I committed it was fine.

There is another e4 I think called Honcho (e4 6B). It is a solo to a high peg. You can make it pretty safe with mats. If you are tall it is very soft and doable.

There is also an e3 with 3 stars called electric circus which gets e3. It is never e3 but the climbing is good and the gear is good. It also has 2 pegs on it.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Drizzle at Hobson Moor Quarry has as many cams as you can carry by you feet for the crux, then it's all over. Easy and well protected up to that point.

In reply to shark:


Thanks Simon. That is so sad and unlucky.

In reply to The Grist:

Yes - much easier but they are runout and so not "safe" insofar as you can potentially take big nasty falls. Also the runout on Robert Brown is from a peg and wire - both good placements in their own right but seated in a crack formed by a large block which whilst not detached is not fused to the cliff either.

In reply to shark:
It all goes to show that there is (probably) no such thing as a safe route. One of my worst injuries was off a sports route. I took a long fall from high up on Frankie at Kilnsey (not long after it was first bolted) and broke some ribs. Other sports routes with big fall potential were Obsession (now retro-ed I believe) and New Dawn at Malham.

A friend of mine fell six feet off a route at Buoux and broke his ankle when he swung in.

Having said that, there are trad routes you can lace with gear every few feet. I remember hanging on and totally stitching up Test Case at Govans after hearing someone had died on it when his (low) gear pulled out. So even though there can be stacks of gear placements, it doesn't mean it's safe for everyone.

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

I seem to remember Obsession went through a strange phase of rebolting where the replacement bolts were in odd places. Not sure if it was around then that I tried it - came off at/near the 3rd bolt and bashed my knee quite badly, never went back on it.

Took rather a big whipper off Balas at Kilnsey: I had cruised it and was on the big, nay huge, jugs next to the lower-off shared with Frankie and was pulling up a bit of slack to clip it. Unfortunately it was a cold day and my hand decided it didn't want to hang around on cold rock. My mate thought I'd clipped the belay so as a jape had payed out "a bit more" slack. I saw rather a lot of Frankie rather quickly, ending up about 6 metres off the deck!!

Back on message:

I'd second the Chee Tor routes, Mortlock's is fine on the first pitch and really awkward on the second. Flakey Wall on High Tor is fine - take a small hex (#1 or #2) for a pocket on the bulge before the flakes.

On grit, I remember doing Calvary with Paul Williams one very windy day after a very late night party: "Just reach up to the good break", "Err, Paul, it's rubbish", "Oh, maybe it's the next one!" Moon Crack (or Walk?) would be another.

In reply to Bob: Whoah, just logged back on and saw that this thread had got a bit epic! Cheers for all the route recommendations and insights. I seem to have plenty to go at now! It's going to be an epic season (I hope)!

Thanks so much for your time guys!

In reply to shark:


Yes, actually I think that's right. And moreover he didn't fall off the crux exactly but was blown off when he got very near the top and was suddenly hit by the wind, again IIRC what was said at the time. All pretty grim but could happen on any route.

jcm

In reply to jon:

Ian, as ever, is the master of the obscure!