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Lowering off

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 lone 23 May 2014
Howdy,

I'm off to do an easy bolted route (the first i've ever done) which is a 4+ on Monday, it's regarded as a easy route ideal as a beginners route, i've chosen this grade as an intro so I can get used to placing and clipping into runners and lowering off.

I have some questions though regarding the lowering off part. I'm happy to lower off if there’s a krab on chains in place or a mallion/ring, but if I get to the top and there’s only two bolts and no krab or ring to put the rope through, then how do I go about lowering off these two bolts ?

I scramble mainly and do some easy trad (Mod/diff) where I eventually top out, so I've never lowered off before in this way before.

Also, if you get too pumped on a harder bolted route, and you back off of it, I can see how you'd be lowered off and you'd collect your runners on the way down, but what about the last runner you placed at the top? You wouldn’t want to leave it behind, is there a process for this where you clean all of your gear off of the route and back off it?

Thanks in advance

Jason
 jwhepper 23 May 2014
In reply to lone:

This BMC article is great for lowering off:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb

I guess if you got pumped and had to come down, the only way to get it back is to rap down or have someone else climb up and get it. Same as if you got some trad gear stuck I guess!

My friend swears by these little locking karabiner thingies that are really cheap (~£3-4) that you can lower off on if you're reaaaally stuck. Better than losing a quickdraw. Can't remember what they are called though, maybe someone else could be more specific than thingies?
bust3r 23 May 2014
In reply to jwhepper:

Maillon?
 Scott Quinn 23 May 2014
In reply to jwhepper:

maillon rapide or quick links if you use these you would ahve to thread your rope as the opening isnt wide enough unless you buy the bigger ones.

I've always just used an old snap gate that the next person can claim as their prize but if your going to make a habbit of it £££££ best leave the qd and ab for it...or finish the route
OP lone 23 May 2014
In reply to scott quinn:

Thanks, I have a few Snap gates I could use

Jason
 Otis 23 May 2014
In reply to lone:
In reply to lone:

Personally I'd not lower off a snap gate myself if bailing from a route. You're trusting your life to one piece of gear, so it's screw gates all the way for me. The cost saving isn't worth the risk IMO.

Whilst it sounds like you've picked a good easy(ish) sport route, easy sport is a lot more technically challenging than easy trad! (4+ is typically somewhere around VS in trad grading speak-so will be more spicy than mods and diffs!).

Have fun though and let us all know how you get on.

Mike
alibaba 23 May 2014
In reply to lone:

I would not look for help online in these matters. These are really critical rope/gear operations that might be fatal if performed badly. If you are unsure how to do that either climb with more experienced friends and get them to show you exactly what they are doing or get professional training. They might be pricey (not sure!) but surely you must treasure your life more.

If you get too pumped just hang on the rope, wait and try to make your way all the way up to chains where you will be able to thread and retrieve all your gear on the way down. If climbing reasonably within or just above your limit you will certainly be able to climb all the way to the top with few rests. (unless you attempt something ridiculously hard).

Have fun with your first trip and stay safe!
 Scott Quinn 23 May 2014
In reply to alibaba:

I would agree to maximise safety when ever possible when starting out so my suggestion of snap gates may be abit daft but thats what Im comfortable with giving that its under constant load etc.

Follow the bmc guidance its spot on & there are even some good videos produced by the bmc on this matter. Once you find your feet i'm sure you will make your own sound judgement on whats safe and whats not.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb

 jwhepper 23 May 2014
In reply to filip.kamycki:

Yeah Maillon that's the one. But yeah you'd have to buy relatively big ones. Advantage of maillon over a wiregate is that they screw shut!
 Mick Ward 23 May 2014
In reply to lone:

> I'm off to do an easy bolted route (the first i've ever done) which is a 4+ on Monday, it's regarded as a easy route ideal as a beginners route...

Would be VS in old money (which obviously it isn't). Whereas:


> I scramble mainly and do some easy trad (Mod/diff) where I eventually top out, so I've never lowered off before in this way before.

Some discrepancy surely?


Grade aside, DO NOT start threading belay bolts if you have the slightest doubt about it. If you blow it at the anchors, chances are you're dead.

You need some instruction from somebody competent, whether a personal contact or a professional contact.

Re bailing without leaving gear behind, if you get a clip-stick (and learn how to use it), assuming it's long enough for the route, you can always reach the anchors. Worth getting if you're going to do any amount of sport. If anybody sneers at it being, "a cheating stick", just ask them how many extremes they've soloed.

Please - be careful.

Mick (and I know I sound like your granny!)








 climbingpixie 23 May 2014
In reply to Otis:

> Personally I'd not lower off a snap gate myself if bailing from a route. You're trusting your life to one piece of gear, so it's screw gates all the way for me. The cost saving isn't worth the risk IMO.

What exactly do you think might happen when you lower off a loaded snap gate that would be mitigated by using a screwgate? I assume you wouldn't lower from the krabs in a climbing wall then.
 Otis 23 May 2014
In reply to climbingpixie:

> What exactly do you think might happen when you lower off a loaded snap gate that would be mitigated by using a screwgate? I assume you wouldn't lower from the krabs in a climbing wall then.

Pretty obvious really - there's a fair to middling risk the gate could be forced opened during the lower off and an admittedly slim risk that the rope could pop out and I'd make a big red stain at the bottom of the crag!

Lowering off a single snapgate fixed to a rigid bolt on an uneven crag is a whole different kettle of fish to lowering off a quickdraw indoors. Indoors, the clip you're lowering off has flexibility and is separated from the bolt, so won't get torqued into odd angles or forced against protrusions and opened. Plus, in the absurdly unliklely event a quickdraw unclips itself indoors, you've got the next one down to hopefully catch you.

In the context of the original post, where we're offering advice to a relatively inexperienced climber, there's an increased risk on less steep low grade routes with ledges to stand on on the way down that lowering might not result in the top anchor being loaded as consistently as you might hope.

A screwgate probably costs about £1 to £2 more than a snapgate. For me, there's a time and a place to save pennies and a time and a place to realise I'm worth more than £2

Mike.
 Merlin 24 May 2014
In reply to Otis:

Have you ever been climbing before?

each of my QDs is equipped with a snap gate at either end which from height I'm prepared to fall on (ie the snap gate isn't even loaded at this point = 1000 times more likely not to work), so I assume yours have screw gates on either end?
 Cadairmanuk 24 May 2014
In reply to Merlin:

> Have you ever been climbing before?

> each of my QDs is equipped with a snap gate at either end which from height I'm prepared to fall on (ie the snap gate isn't even loaded at this point = 1000 times more likely not to work), so I assume yours have screw gates on either end?

To be fair he has a good , factual point here?

Ben.
 Otis 24 May 2014
In reply to Merlin:
> Have you ever been climbing before?

What a pointlessly antagonistic thing to say. Of course I have.

The issue is one of articulation-something a QuickDraw provides, but a single crab does not. When lowering off a sole snapgate in a bolt, you increase the risk of torquing the crab in the bolt-especially if you make a mistake and back clip the crab (something that may not be apparent to a beginner, such as the chap who started this thread).

If you're lowering off one piece of gear only then it's safest if it's not a single snapgate. Full stop. There's a reason why every climbing wall you'll ever go to has more than a single snapgate at the top of each wall...... Which I know because I've been climbing many times.....;-p
Post edited at 21:04
Removed User 24 May 2014
In reply to Otis:
If your preference is to lower off a screwgate because you view a non-locker as being unsafe then fine, but trying to justify its usage when we're all climbers here and know that it makes no difference is crazy.

ps. from what i've seen the vast majority don't use the screwgate on the loweroff on indoor walls, that's why they are always screwed shut. Unnecessary.
Post edited at 22:00
 3 Names 24 May 2014
In reply to Otis:
We'll considering the risks are "fair to middling"
And you've done lots of climbing, you must have seen hundreds
Of climbers killed in this way?
In reply to Otis:
Hi Mike,
You have my support on this one. Yours is sound advice given to someone starting out.

If with experience they later choose to leave just a snap gate behind, on a sound looking bolt with clean rock around it then good on them, and time will teach them these judgement calls.

Anecdotally I have collected plenty maillons, several old screw gates, and the odd set of opposing QDs off sport routes, but surprisingly few snap gates.

Now before we batter poor Mike any further let's think about where we are getting this "get out of jail" snap gate from in our slimline sport rack to lower off on.
Hmm I'll just grab one out of the oldest crappy QD I have, and the free (bolt clipping) side is easier to get out as it is not restrained by that little rubber keeper, but in my haste I forget it has two lovely sharp nicks in the cradle area where my rope will be running where it has bitten into the bolt edges over the years....

Granted your screw gates may also be a bit rough but as a wise magician has taught us already, our QDSs have SNAP GATES at each end so we tend to fall on these and damage them, as opposed to our screw gates....

.... AND Jason, listen to Mick Ward, some top advice there.
Post edited at 00:12
 Merlin 26 May 2014
In reply to Removed User:

I don't know many people who do clip the screw gate at the top of the wall either, and once loaded I really can't see this being an issue.
 MaranaF 26 May 2014
In reply to lone:

The earlier reference to the BMC website for instruction on lowering off is correct answer to the original question with the reminder that a little knowledge can be dangerous.

A question to all climbing outside; I always have a mallion on the back of my harness, even on a sports route.... just in case. Dont you?
In reply to MaranaF:

Yes I do!
 jkarran 27 May 2014
In reply to lone:

> I have some questions though regarding the lowering off part. I'm happy to lower off if there’s a krab on chains in place or a mallion/ring, but if I get to the top and there’s only two bolts and no krab or ring to put the rope through, then how do I go about lowering off these two bolts ?

There are lots of different options depending on what you're faced with but the basic rules are don't end up detached from what's supporting/protecting you, don't have moving rope running over sharp bolts and don't drop the rope! For specific instructions on untying and safely retying find a good book or article (there's one on this site somewhere IIRC).

> Also, if you get too pumped on a harder bolted route, and you back off of it, I can see how you'd be lowered off and you'd collect your runners on the way down, but what about the last runner you placed at the top? You wouldn’t want to leave it behind, is there a process for this where you clean all of your gear off of the route and back off it?

Again you have options. Rest and try again being the simplest, then there's cheating with bolts for aid or a clipstick or by going off route or up an easier line. Or send your mate up or ask for help retrieving your clip if there's anyone else nearby or planning to go up. Failing that you can lower off some bolts (staples), abb off others with a bit of tat or you can resign yourself to losing a bit of gear. Some options are safer than others.

jk
 jkarran 27 May 2014
In reply to jwhepper:

> Yeah Maillon that's the one. But yeah you'd have to buy relatively big ones. Advantage of maillon over a wiregate is that they screw shut!

The disadvantage is they screw open too which a moving/vibrating rope can cause. Open they're weak (in the size/weight range you might carry as disposable bail gear) and can uncurl releasing the rope, something a snaplink won't do.

They can also get stuck in place preventing the bolt being safely clipped by future users.

jk
 Oujmik 27 May 2014
In reply to Removed User:

> ps. from what i've seen the vast majority don't use the screwgate on the loweroff on indoor walls, that's why they are always screwed shut. Unnecessary.

I agree with your general point about snap gates being safe to lower on, but I had to point out the logic flaw here... if I lead the route, clip both krabs, screw up the screwgate, lower off, pull my ropes... what state would the screwgate be left in? The fact it's screwed up is not great evidence either way, it suggests that it's been used at least once but that's about it.
 hms 27 May 2014
In reply to lone:

The indoor wall I train at has 2 snap-gates at the top of each route. If I'm leading, I'd only ever bother clipping one; after all, when I'm being lowered off, if the unthinkable happened and that single snapgate failed, I'd be protected by the draw underneath. However, if I'm working a route so am on toprope, I would always clip both. I know that logically it is incredibly unlikely that the rope would whip & unclip or a single clip fail whilst I was working moves, but it is still possible.

If I do thins inside, where the height is modest and the floor is rubber clad and sprung, believe you me I am catagorically going to do it outside where the routes are longer and a fall would probaly be onto a bunch of assorted rock and boulders.

And I echo Mike Ward's advice about clip sticks. For sport routes they are indispensible. We don't all have the luxury of climbing with people who are much better and are always available to rescue any gear. Personally, being able to get a rope up with a clip stick is probably the single most important think in allowing me to progress & push my grade.
 sianabanana 27 May 2014
In reply to Removed User:
"ps. from what i've seen the vast majority don't use the screwgate on the loweroff on indoor walls, that's why they are always screwed shut. Unnecessary."

of course they are screwed shut, the last person that used it, screwed it up and then the rope was pulled - leaving it shut!!

Are we not confusing things here. Surely the screw gate at the top of an indoor wall is for use with top ropes (or if someone is going to second the route) not leading.

If you have lead the route and you are lowering off, you have the protection of all the clips below also. If you are top roping, you are relying on the very top anchor alone (and seconding you are relying on the top anchor when lowering off). Therefore you would like to rely on something more than just one snap gate.

However, many walls use two opposing snap gates for this.

How this information is applied to the OP question is another story. As other people have explained re cliping directly to bolts, and varying shapes or rock etc. If i had to leave some gear behind, i would rather it be a screw gate or Maillon than a snap gate.
Removed User 27 May 2014
In reply to Oujmik/sianabanana:

Why would you screw it closed if you're lowering off of both the top crabs and the rope is weighted by you? I never understood why there's a screwgate there in the first place. Perhaps like Sianabanana says below it's for toproping, cause it makes zero sense for it to be used for lowering off after leading. I don't use them anymore because it's a total bitch having to unscrew the bastards while pumped out of my skull at the top of a route.
 Oujmik 27 May 2014
In reply to Removed User:

I think you're right that it's there for top-roping. I generally don't clip it unless I'm leaving the rope in for someone to top rope. If someone thought it was necessary to use it, then they would probably also think it was necessary to screw it up, hence my original comment.
Removed User 27 May 2014
In reply to Oujmik:

That makes sense.
 DaCat 07 Jun 2014
In reply to filip.kamycki:

Yep, use a maillon of the appropriate size, in fact carry two because the second can be used for tightening off the first.

I can't tell you how many maillons I have found over the years. Some need to be removed, others don't. Some are too tight to unfasten without the use of another maillon, some have welded themselves at the thread and need a small spanner to undo them. I always carry a small spanner on my belt for this very reason and in all the years of finding maillons that needed to be removed, I have never yet failed to remove one.

What I won't do is use some maillon that's been left in situe because constant use tends to strip the internal threads and they can become unstable.

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