UKC

Hi there
A quick question:
I'd like to buy 2 daisy chais for aid climbing.
There are two widths of them: 10mm dyneema and 13mm dyneema

10mm:
http://s28.postimg.org/mj8t3f97x/10000933.png
13mm:
http://s28.postimg.org/ungx85vn1/daisy_chain_blue.jpg

Which one would You choose?
Isn't the 10mm a little bit too thin for aid ?

In reply to mike.gore:

Why would you want 2 ? Most folk use one daisy chain and one or two etriers.

In reply to Erstwhile:


I'm not sure that is true

In reply to mike.gore:

Go with nylon daisy's. if you blow a peice when weighting it you will shock load your previous peice through your daisy. In addition pulling on your daisy is pretty common.

The critical aspect is getting the right length of daisy. It should be long enough that at maximum reach it is not holding you back, but any longer and it will cause more cluster.

Also get two different colours for quick identification (and two different coloured aiders). Keep one daisy on each side to avoid tangles.

In reply to kipman725:
Thanks,
Aye, I already got two aiders of the same color because they were on sale, but I will put some colored tape on the spreader bar on one of them.
I'll get two different colors, thanks.

I know that nylon absorbs shocks better than dyneema however dyneema daisies are noticeably lighter and less bulky... Even when You blow a piece when bounce testing, does the difference is that significant? You actually feel this on Your body after the climb?

I was debating on thickness because there are few options in the shop. But I think 10mm would be a bit too thin and would wear too fast.

Chris Mcnamara in his book "How To Big Wall?" says that a daisy chain should be 4-6 inches longer than the distance from your waist to your tips of the outstretched fingers at maximum reach. Those couple of inches are probably reserved for the girth hitching them on Your harness. (buying the length without those few inches of reserve can result in too short daisy after tying it to harness.)

quote:
"What is The Right Length?
All daisy chains I have seen work so the most important thing is to get the length right. You don’t want the daisy chain to come tight before you get to your maximum reach.

When shopping in the store, put one end at belt level and hold the other end as high as you can above your head with fingers outstretched. There should be four to eight inches of extra daisy beyond your fingers.
If between sizes, err on the size of being too long. If shopping online, raise your hand, measure from your waist to the tip of your fingers, and add a few inches. For most people, 55 inches is the right length."

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Daisy-Chain-Reviews/buying-advice

Erstwhile - For aid, my setup of choice will be: 2 daisies + 2 ladders.

In reply to mike.gore:
Interesting - I thought the American big wallers all used adjustable daisies these days.

I have dyneema one and they have been absolutely fine for my limited aid climbing. They system I learnt meant that you clipped your rope into you last point once you weighted the next meaning there was very little time where you would fall on the daisy connecting you to the point below.

In reply to mike.gore:

I would strongly recommend Metolius adjustable daisies, me and my wall partner spent 5 years faffing with sewn daisies, then when we discovered the adjustables, it was like switching on the turbo charger, our climbing speed increased dramatically.

In reply to mike.gore:

I've been learning to aid a bit, had a thin daisy and a think nylon BD one, the thin one is already looking pretty worst for wear at either end. Getting the fifi 'clipped' in is also a bit of a pain, I seem to end up doing one arm pull ups and lock-offs to do it! I've been looking at other solutions a bit recently and I might try the set-up below.. Looks interesting

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/aid-rig-81mm-dynamic-adjustable-daisies/10...

In reply to mike.gore:

How long are the daisies? Make sure you get the 140cm or longer ones as otherwise they are likely to get too short very quickly as things tangle for you.

The dyneema daisies are the ones to go for in my opinion. They are easier to manage and supposedly wear better (according to Andy Kirkpatrick).

Also make sure they are different colour and get some twist locks to use with them

In reply to Fredt:

You mean this one?
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Daisy-Chain-Reviews/Metolius-Easy-Daisy

" you can't really use it for aid climbing leads since it is not rated to hold falls. It is great for if you are just jugging on a wall but we would never bring a pair of daisy's just for jugging and another pair for leading. "

Hannes - thanks

In reply to mike.gore:


Does anyone know what actually happens to these in a high load/impact situation? I really like their ease of use and very much suspect that they aren't able to be rated for lead falls because they will slip under heavy loads, but if that's the case I'd say it could be a good thing! At least as long as when it reached full extension it behaved like a conventional sling.

Is it just a certification technicality or are they really likely to fail catastrophically at just a few kN?

In reply to mike.gore:

They're the very fellows.
Since when have daisy chains needed to be rated for falls? - fifi hooks aren't?

In reply to Fredt:

Well, I'm not sure but I think that the daisy - as a sling - should be rated for a fall for example, I dont know - BD dynex daisy is rated 16 kN. (the loops of course are rated for a static body loads only)

While the Metolius adjustable sling:
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easy_daisy.html

is rated only to 1.3 kN so its for body-weight use only in general.
I dont know, they COULD fail catastrophically during a mid fall.

In reply to mike.gore:


Yes but WOULD they? Both clip-in points are sewn loops in full-strength webbing so you'd expect a rating of 15kN or more. As far as I can tell the only additional risk is that the buckle could somehow cause a weak spot at the length it was set to, but I find it hard to believe that could cause such a huge decrease in strength. The other factor of course is that if the buckle were to slip easily - or worse to break - the resulting fall to fully extended position would shock load the remaining full-strength sling, but how likely is that in practice?

I can't remember whether it's the Metolius or Yates version (maybe both - they're both good) that has metal buckles, which look like they wouldn't break under such a load so the worst likely to happen is gradual slippage until the sling is fully extended.

In reply to john arran:

I'm not following this at all. When aiding using adjustables, the point is they hold you in place, upright, to free your hands, so usually under tension. Why would you need to rely on a shockload strength, - that's what the rope's for.

In reply to john arran:

This may be proof that i ain't 'ard enough for serious aid climbing, but i would rather have a daisy that fails at <6kn leaving the rope to do its job of catching my fall, rather than a daisy that is stronger than my spine...

In reply to Fredt:
Top-stepping you are in pretty much a fall factor 2 situation if you happen to lose your balance and drop

ETA: But yeah, agree with you about the rope. At first i understood you were suggesting you couldn't fall on a Daisy

In reply to john arran:


I've taken a fall onto a hook on one when the hook I was on blew. The sec on hook was at my feet. The daisy was fine. The hook snapped. I did hear that some designs have failed when the sliding bit cut the tape.

In reply to Fredt:

Well firstly you wouldn't want your gear to snap in a simple fall of a metre or two onto good gear as you would still want to use it afterwards. But my real motive is to use it as a belay tether, for which it would be hugely useful if it could be relied upon not to snap. Slipping under load would usually be fine - even welcome - and if that's the only thing that's stopping it being rated higher than 1.5kN it would be really useful to know that. The same would apply for aiding as any slippage beyond 1.5kN would help cushion the catch.

In reply to Fredt:


Many people don't clip the rope into the lower piece until they remove the aider from it. This means that if the upper piece blows when you are testing it you might drop onto the lower piece via its daisy

In reply to David Coley:


That's the kind of info I'd like to hear more about - specifically whether it's true or just guesswork.

In reply to TobyA:



Not so.
On the whole adjustables are slow on low angle stuff. Better to just walk up the ladder and clip in once in the third/second step. However on steep stuff they are popular.

In reply to TobyA:

>The system I learnt meant that you clipped your rope into you last point once you weighted the next meaning there was very little time where you would fall on the daisy connecting you to the point below.

The "very little time" is just when the top piece might blow.

In reply to David Coley:


What's the reasoning behind doing that?

In reply to Mr Lopez:
So that there's less rope out if the top weighted placement blows.

In reply to Fredt:

Mmmmhhh.... But Shirley once you stepped up your tie-in point will be pretty much level or above the weighted gear, non?

Or even if you are well below, isn't this like the old myth of clipping when waist level rather from below?

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Your rope shouldn't be in the piece that's weighted, its in the piece below.
You reach up and put some gear in.
You clip an etrier to it.
You step up and put a dasiy chain in.
You reach down and move the rope to piece you just left.

If you put the rope in the piece you're weighting, and it blows, you put a much higher shockload on the last piece.

I thought that in trad, clipping a placement above your waist is just toproping.

In reply to john arran:


This the post that got people talking I think:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?t=46767

John, unless you want to be able to shorten the tether to <50cm, just use a purcell prusik on 7mm cord. It needs to be not too new or shiny. cheaper too.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Get Jim Titt in the thread. He will know the physics.

Not familiar with aid climbing then? To be honest neither am I but most aid climbers do as described.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Ooops, i went to write a quick comment/description and ended up overdoing it... So as not to hijack this thread i'll start a new one with it.

Link forthcoming

Flame on http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=588551

In reply to Fredt:


No shame in being a topropper. Topropper and proud