UKC

With the news this week of a reinvigorated search in Portugal, is it time we considered whether the ongoing efforts of the Met police is a sensible use of dwindling resources?

Whilst I am sure that we all all appreciate the potential need for closure for the McCann family (regardless of the correctness of their actions), 7 years later it seems that the chances of success are now very low when resources could perhaps be used in tasks that benefit the majority much more.

In reply to Oli:

I agree... please put more time in to finding out what the hell happened to my stolen Jambox.

In reply to Oli:

Remind us how old your kids are.

E

In reply to Enty:

Entry, I usual find your posts quite sensible but that just makes you sound like a condescending knob.

As a reasonable human being, I am able to understand and experience a full range of emotions - the fact that I have no children does not diminish my ability to empathise with what others may go through.

Are you going to contribute anything constructive? Perhaps explain your views in a more useful manner, or maybe share some of your experiences?

In reply to Oli:

A child has disappeared or been abducted, possibly murdered. If she was abducted and or murdered the person(s) responsible are still at large. It would be great if this happened as soon as possible in case they do it again.

In reply to Oli:

Not knowing must be the worst thing to live with.

Think of Keith Bennetts mother who took that to her grave.
If there's new evidence then it must be worth pursuing.

In reply to Oli:

Personally, I think its a great example of how good our police really are (for all their faults) compared to the Spanish lot they are making some decent progress.

This should be being funded by Spain, not sure if they are contributing or not.

In reply to aln:


Clearly, but as time passes the chances of success dwindle and resources needed grow exponentially. I would be as satisfied as the next person for the relevant perpetrators to be brought to justice. Is that a realistic likelihood at this stage?

Furthermore, throughout the world and even the UK there are other missing people (adults and children alike) who in a similar manner are unlikely to be found or the cases solved, yet do not experience the same police input.

In reply to balmybaldwin:



Do the Spanish police have jurisdiction in Portugal?

In reply to Oli:


How do you have any ides how likely it is, or even if the resources needed do grow exponentially?

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Portuguese! Not that Spanish police is likely much better ( I am Spanish by the way as you might have gathered and ours is probably not much better)

In reply to Dispater:



That could explain why they're not getting anywhere! Doh!

In reply to Oli:

Excuse my grumpy tone, but why do you think you know what you're talking about?

If you don't know anything about the current investigation how do you know the other missing people are similarly un/likely to be found as the Madeline case is likely to be solved and/or Madeline's body found?

In reply to Timmd:

Your correct. I have as much idea as yourself. I would suggest that in general it is a fairly logical and realistic view though.

In reply to Timmd:

I would suggest that it is fairly commonly accepted that the McCann case has received greater prolonged attention than most, that is all.

I've no axe to grind, so to speak, I'm merely interested in people's opinions.

In reply to Oli:

Why would you?

Edit: Don't take it personally, I'm just in a grumpy mood. I'm offski

In reply to Timmd:


What?

And why your self confessed grumpy tone?

In reply to Oli:


Yes it does I'm afraid.

In reply to Timmd:

Since you talk in such a judgmental way, I hope you have been following the investigation, at least to some very minor extent, over the last seven years. The original Portuguese investigation was very thorough, and SY have taken years to cooperate fully with them. No one knows now quite what's going on (or rather, why), but it can be monitored more or less by the minute on about 12 different web sites. Of course, because you speak so authoritatively, you will know this web site: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/ - I'm mentioning it simply for those that don't. There are at least three other v. imp web sites that are endeavouring to keep the flag of justice flying too.

In reply to Oli:

Having a couple of rozzers over in Portugal keeps them from sneaking around street corners with their speed guns.

In reply to Oli:

I think Enty is right... some things are not cost effective.. I don't think economics should be a major factor in this.

Maddy could still be alive (admittedly thats a very low possibility), also this may help get the guy and the chances are there were other kids and could be more and lastly the family want to know what happened..

In reply to Oli:



Probably not, but thats true about most things in life... look at lottery funding, it goes to the educated rich people too often as they now how to play the system, likewise so do the McCann's.. I don't begrudge them for doing all they can, what would you do if it was your kid? Ask for resources to be diverted to more pressing needs? Or push for awareness and more police focus?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Jill Havern's site is disgusting. I'm quite surprised you link it. It goes against the very core of English justice. It presumes guilt.

In reply to Enty:

I wonder what the parents of missing children in London think?

In reply to The New NickB:

Well this argument comes up time after time.
Where are all the examples of kids being snatched in the middle of the night by total strangers never to be seen again - then the cops do nothing?

E

In reply to The New NickB:


Which cases of missing toddlers in London are you specifically concerned about?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Have you got any good links to sites telling the truth about 9/11?

In reply to Sir Chasm:


Nick is now busy trawling google.....

E

In reply to Enty:



He probably just meant that "generally" the police should have "better things to do with their time".

In reply to Enty:

How old are your children exactly?

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Or he might have been wondering why so much police resource seems to be expended on this one particular missing child when there are many more missing children who don't have the same headlines.

In reply to tony:


That's why I asked if there were any missing toddlers he was worried the police were devoting insufficient resources to find.

In reply to Sir Chasm:


Sadly, lots of missing children:
http://missingkids.co.uk/missing/

In reply to tony:

I've looked at those before, tragic yes, but none are comparable to Madeleine McCann.

E

In reply to Sir Chasm:

I do find it a bit disturbing that the village residents (many of them ex-pats) have been publicly complaining about the disruption to their lives and poor publicity for the village- what an utterly selfish attitude, what a complete lack of empathy for the suffering her parents are still going through!

In reply to The New NickB:

She's 8 and my whole world. I'm the same age as Gerry and Kate and that's why I feel I can empathise with them more than a 26 year old with no kids.
Sorry if that sounds condescending but that's how I feel.

E

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Mostly teenagers but there are all these

http://missingkids.co.uk/Missing/

At a guess not many have media-savvy parents who can mobilise the entire mass of country's conspiracy theory junkies though so the police don't bother themselves with them too much.

In reply to pebbles:

Absolutely, that website posted earlier is disgusting.

E

In reply to Enty:


Why not? Why do you even need to compare them? It's a missing child for heaven's sake, it not a competition.

In reply to tony:



I've only had a quick look but I can't see many toddlers in there.

In reply to Enty:

They're all someone's child though!

That website Gordon linked to is vile though - there are a lot of corners of the internet I'd prefer not to know about and that's one of them.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Never heard of it before but from a first look it appears to be completely bonkers and populated by obsessives.


I'm really not sure if you're joking or not?

In reply to Sir Chasm:


If you tried a bit harder, you'd find Emanuel and Felipe Diaz, current ages 3 and 5, Thila Rojas, current age 5, but aged 2 when she sent missing, Martin and Dominika Gajdar, aged 4 when they went missing, and so on.

In reply to tony:


Thanks for that, so 4 toddlers (2 siblings), all believed to be with a parent, as horrible as those cases may be I'm not quite sure why they show that the police shouldn't bother in this case.

In reply to TobyA:

I have seen it before, as a google search on a particularly unpleasant human being I have had some minor dealings with took me to the forum.

They don't like him either, as he is well connected to the Madeline Campaign, but apart from agreeing with them that he is an unpleasant individual, they do generally come across as a bunch of nutters.

In reply to tony:

I had a look through, it's horribly striking how many of the missing kids are either foreign or from ethnic minorities isn't it? My past reading about Bourdieu and cultural capital sadly come back - marginalise people enough and its easy to ignore even their missing children.

In reply to Sir Chasm:


Is anyone saying the police shouldn't bother in this case?

In reply to The New NickB:

In my old work I spent WAY to much time on wackjob websites (normally immigrant and Muslim hating ones but just wider conspiracy and far rights ones too) and they have a certain 'feel' to them - layout, tone, web-design, excessive use of capital letters etc. The one linked above is different content but has the same sort of feel about it!

In reply to Enty:




Very condescending, but apology accepted nonetheless

In reply to Tall Clare:



Of course - it's horrible for the parents involved. Especially if one parent has absconded with the kids, sometimes to another country.
Google some of the names on that list and you'll find out why they are not really comparable to the McCann case.

And Tony - I know it's not a bloody competition. But if a teenager runs away for a new life in London it's not comparable to being snatched in the middle of the night.

E

E

In reply to tony:


Great! We're all agreed that the police are doing their job in this case.

In reply to Oli:

The McCanns have been very savvy in using the media, and good luck to them I would do any thing I could to get my kids back. its not a case of are we using to many resources on a missing child but are we using enough to assist other vunerable and missing children. If as a society if we cant put some resources into looking after the most vunerable memberss of that society then we are buggered.
We could alsways ask Gary Barlow to pay his taxes that would easily cover a few missing childrens cases and a couple of childrens hospital wards as well :-/

In reply to Sir Chasm:

You're deliberately ignoring and misrepresenting what people are saying.

In reply to tony:

I assume Sir Chasm is thinking (I use the term loosely) about my question about the use of Met resources and missing children from London.

I assume the Met have a national remit on some matters, given that this is a child that lived in Nottingham and disappeared in Portugal, but my question responded to an emotive use of language in an emotive way.

In reply to Removed User:

Sorry, but no, it doesn't. If anything it gives his position an advantage, his opinion isn't clouded by emotion and he's completely right. It's a waste of time and money.

In reply to TobyA:

I think Gordon has form on this subject if I remember his postings after the Crimewatch special.

In reply to Removed User:


Would you say that if it was your kid?

E

In reply to Enty:



Probably no one would but the point is there are lots of other crimes, some involving other people's children. There aren't sufficient resources to investigate them all at this level, particularly after seven years of drawing a blank. This being the case, it seems sensible to focus resources on crimes with a reasonable chance of being solved, rather than on those that have the most media coverage and which are most emotive.

In reply to Removed User:
Nonsense. It is not a waste of time or money if there are leads to be followed. Shall we just stop looking for that missing plane? Bloody expensive that is. What about the recent abductees that escaped in the US after years of incarceration? A bit embarrassing for the cops who closed the files on those missing kids (if they ever did...I don't know) What would you rather the money was spent on?

In reply to Enty:


Of course people are not all the same. There are some people without children who will empathise more, and others with children who will empathise less. Consider some of the child support workers out there who do not have children, but who have direct experience of the effects of kidnapping. On the other hand consider some parents who neglect their children.

Having children does not make someone a mind reader.

In reply to Enty:

Put another way, if your child went missing how would you feel if the effort put in to finding them in the immediate aftermath was less than that currently being expending on the McCann case after seven years, as it surely would be?

In reply to MG:


But I'm still waiting for examples of toddlers being snatched in the middle of the night where the police haven't really bothered.

E

In reply to MG:


Again - see my last post.

E

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


At some point, probably fairly soon, yes.

What would you rather the money was spent on?

How about other crimes with a good chance of being solved, health, education etc?

In reply to MG:

If Little Ent reaches the age of 16, throws a teenage strop, runs off to London and decides to ignore my phonecalls I wouldn't expect the police to get involved as much as they are with the McCann case.

E

In reply to Oli:

Just a thought - is it possible that none of us on here actually know what's happening, or why?

That, for example, the police might be acting on information they believe has a worthwhile chance of progressing something, rather than being directed by media pressure as some seem to think?

It isn't just about the missing child, either - there's the possibility of catching whoever is responsible, maybe stopping them doing something similar again.

In reply to Enty:

OK - if you think this investigation is actually going anywhere (and we can't tell, I suppose) I see your point. My guess is it is clutching at straws or simply a response to media pressure, and therefore a waste of resources.

In reply to MG:

Hopefully we'll get some more info sooner rather than later.

E

In reply to MG:

I personally don't think they would be spending all this money due to media pressure. We'll see - hopefully.

E

In reply to Enty:


But would you be saying the same if it was your 16 year old kid who was suffering from, say, mental health issues who had run away to London 'for a better life'? We all know how incredibly vulnerable young people are in such situations. Each one of these stories is a tragedy for someone.

In reply to TobyA:


Of course I know they are all tragic. I think I'd understand if the cops didn't show the same amount of interest. Would I be happy - no.

E

In reply to Oli:

Anyone in the Avignon area want to go climbing this afternoon?

E

In reply to Oli:

I think this case poses some very unique questions.

1. Why, in a crowded resort in the early evening, did almost NOBODY come forward to say they'd seen anything? Somebody must have seen something, and yet there's been a huge silence. This is particularly odd considering the vast media coverage there's been both in UK and Portugal.
2. If the police are now looking for evidence of a body (and I can't imagine what else they are looking for if they are digging), why would any perpetrator abduct the child, kill her and bury the evidence FIVE MINUTES WALK away from the apartment?

In reply to Enty:

That missing kids site is quite upsetting

In reply to Enty:


Do you have evidence that this is what happened? AFAIK it's never been established exactly how Maddy came to be missing from the apartment.

In reply to Enty:

Was Ben Needham ever found?

In reply to Tall Clare:


Nope.

In reply to Tall Clare:


No

In reply to Tall Clare:


No, but the story still comes up on Look North, I don't know why.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

The last time was when an e-fit was created of what he might look like at 18. It must be hell to lose a child.

In reply to Oli:
I don't know about anything else, but I have switched off to it all. its boring, boring, boring.Same old, same old story. They are never going to find the poor girl. The McCanns need to try and move on and get on with their lives. Not easy I'm sure.

In reply to Timmd:


I doubt that's the case, police went over to Greece in 2012 to make further searches.

In reply to Tall Clare:


Nope but that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Lots of police work involved and lots of media coverage.

E

In reply to Sir Chasm:

When Needham would have been about 21. I have seen an e-fit or some kind of image of how he might look as an adult, and adults who've looked like they might be him have been DNA tested.

In reply to TobyA:


Have not looked at the website, but foreign / minority children are expected to be overrepresented. One parent taking the children abroad, likely in violation of custody rulings, is sadly common. Not much to do for the police in such cases, more of a dipomatic issue.

CB

In reply to Timmd:


You said the last time it was mentioned was when an efit of what he might look like at 18 was created. I pointed out it was mentioned more recently than that. You now seem to be agreeing that it's been mentioned more recently - or something?

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Yes probably, I'm vaguely addled today.

In reply to Gordonbp:

Was it busy? I thought it was a sleepy holiday resort?

I just don't get the attacks on the McCann's.. they are doing all they can to find their kid. Can anyone seriously hold that against them?

Yes they may get disproportionate press time but that's not their fault. But also a result of the initial large press interest. Its self perpetuating, like the Ben Needham case. Those are two we all know about yet 1000's will have gone missing, but his parents don't get the abuse the McCann's do.

In reply to Removed User:


You didn't read his statement did you?

This: "the fact that I have no children does not diminish my ability to empathise with what others may go through."

It does diminish his ability to empathise. It doesn't mean he can't empathise at all but, as you've pointed out yourself he is less emotional about the topic.

In reply to Removed User:
True, but money isn't a huge factor.. look at the money spent on prosecuting Nazi guards at the concentration camps.. Many are now 90+ and will serve little if any time and will almost certainly be no threat to the public.

In reply to Removed User:


Which is a good thing in this case because it means he's more impartial, hence his reasoning isn't biased due to emotion.

In reply to IainRUK:

Ha, that should be a whole different topic.

Fwiw: insanity that they are being charged!

In reply to IainRUK:

but his parents don't get the abuse the McCann's do.

It's the double edge sword of media attention, isn't it? Yes they get people on side to help look as a result, but they also get others trying to shoot them down.

In reply to MG:

what do the mccanns have to say about this new investigation?

In reply to Removed User:


We better get robots to do jury service then.

E

In reply to Removed User:



Have they ever been charged?

In reply to IainRUK:

I think ex0 means the 90 year old Nazis. Too right they should be charged.
Should they let Stuart Hall off too because he's in his 80's?

E

In reply to Enty:

Ahh OK. I see now.. There's those who got sadistic enjoyment from it and those that had a job to do and I hope thats recognised. I think it is. I think it was only those who people remembered as particularly evil that got sentenced.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

What a disgusting website, you should be ashamed of yourself linking to that. The creeps who come up with this rubbish are walking lumps of shit.

I've met Gerry McCann, being in the same line of work, and know people close to him - he is an honest, decent, caring and dedicated doctor.

I thought better of you

In reply to IainRUK:


You'd hope so, but I doubt there's enough of them left to be that picky.

In reply to Oli:
One thing the McCann case shows is humanity at its lowest level. From whichever side you look at it the whole thing is sh*t.

For me, and I've said this before, I choose to believe that the little girl is alive and being cared for in some form. In this I hope she is not being harmed.

I don't give a flying f**k about the likelyhood of this scenario only that I will continue to hold to it until faced with clear evidence to the contrary.

In reply to
For those interested some arguments posted here
http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.co.uk , particularly the why are sy digging there
And the Portuguese documentary not shown here youtube.com/watch?v=x_ZdDTsFC2g&

In reply to grommet:


The fact that that web site identifies the wrong search area http://tinyurl.com/px895fk does rather undermine its claims about the reasons behind the search. Even I managed to work out where the search was being carried out from the vague information offered at the start of the week, before the BBC highlighted it on a map in yesterday's report: http://tinyurl.com/pp2uavn

In reply to Oli:

I find it hard to reconcile the statement that the Portuguese police conducted a thorough research at the time with the fact that they are now digging up ground only five minutes walk away from the abduction site.
Also am I the only one to think that the British police only re-open these cases when the weather gets a bit warmer in the resorts, time for two weeks in Portugal or Greece? And why does it take so long anyway? Time team only had three days!(apologies for that one).

In reply to Oli:


I disagree, it does diminish it, and does mean you don't really understand the depth of feeling people have for their children. It is hard to explain and impossible to fully appreciate until you are a parent.

In reply to bleddynmawr:


That really depends how robust the reasoning is for digging now. I am sure thre are dozens of sites within a mile or so that they could dig up.

In reply to Springfield:


You don't have to be a parent to understand this. I have two stepchildren who, it's fair to say, drive me up the wall sometimes, but I'd still put myself in the way of danger for them, likewise with my nieces and nephews, and I'm sure many others out there would do the same.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I agree... and everyone has been on the other end of the relationship - i.e. had parents and therefore know how close the attachment is.

In reply to Tall Clare:

Indeed. Whilst other parents will abuse, neglect or abandon their children.

People are not all the same, and there is a bell curve with empathy, as with everything else. If you look at the distributions for "parents" and "not parents" on empathy here, there will be some overlap where some non parents care more than some parents. Being a parent does not magically confer superior morals any more than it automatically gives someone more insight into raising children. It does apparently confer a sense of entitlement to tell other people what they are thinking.

In reply to bleddynmawr:

That's the elephant ni the room though isn't it... UK police have picked up a cold case 4 years down the line, and already turned up significant leads (significant enough to go digging, links to other incidents etc) that the Portuguese with a fresh investigation missed for 4 years.

The problem is diplomatically, the UK police need to keep the portuguese on side if they want continued cooperation

In reply to Tall Clare:


But it helps, I realise it's boring and can seem like a bit of one-upmanship trip. But there really isn't a way to explain what having children of your own is like or how to explain it.

OK it's not the same for everyone and there are bad parents so I'm not saying that all people feel the same.

To put it in climbing terms to explaining to a non climber the experience of climbing a really difficult climb that was touch and go, at the top of your limit. It doesn't work, then multiply that a number of times.

Before I was a parent I thought exactly the same, what a load of shit, and now I can't explain to anyone how it is and they think I'm being superior, when I'm not.

For me it's simply a matter of fact.

In reply to krikoman:



I didn't say (and don't think) that!

In reply to krikoman: Well put

In reply to Tall Clare:


No, I didn't mean that's what you thought! It's what I thought, couldn't understand what they were on about and it made no sense at the time.

In reply to krikoman:






I completely agree.

In reply to krikoman:






I can't comment. I only have a step child. But it's really hurtful when people (innocently) make comments such as "ah, she's only your step daughter" or "don't you have any real kids / kids of your own".

Or refer to her as 'just' my stepdaughter.

It's hurtful both to me and to her.

And it's really galling to have the 'I'm a parent therefore I have better grasp of loving a child than you do'. I know that's not how it's meant and I'm not referring specifically to you...but that's how some of these comments have come across.

But I can't comment because I have nothing to compare it to.

Maybe if someone on here has a stepchild that they've raised from a very small age, and also has a 'real' child of their own, they can comment on whether they feel a 'different' depth of love for one, over the other. (and whether that raises any problems in the relationship?)

Or maybe I'm derailling the thread a little bit. May be more appropriate on a thread of it's own.

In reply to Oli:

I enjoyed whoever said 'and of course we've all been on the end of parents love' or similar. That's like saying you understand marriage because you watched your parents being married - when actually watching your parents being married doesn't in any way prepare you for being married!

My comments weren't meant to criticise or belittle the relationship of parents and step children. I was merely saying until you have had your own children you can't really fully understand what it's like for the likes of the mccanns

In reply to ThunderCat:


I raised two step-daughters from the ages of 2 and 4 (now 20 and 24), and I also have a daughter, aged 13, who is their half sister.

My feelings for my daughter are much stronger and more visceral than those I have for her sisters.

That's my experience.

In reply to Springfield:
But again, isn't that a bit of a nonsense, missing the point that people have greater and lesser empathetic skills? I remember some of the other threads that have come up on here with other parents saying 'well I'd never leave my kids so they pretty much got what was coming to them', which doesn't seem very empathetic at all to me.

I'm capable of understanding that there can't really be anything worse than what they're going through - every instance of one's child suffering, in pain, unintentionally absent is going to be shades of the same suffering for the parents, surely?

Saying that people can't understand unless they're parents themselves also overlooks (undermines? dismisses?) the experience of people who can't have biological children of their own, I think.

In reply to Springfield:


Y'see rightly or wrongly, some of us step parents read that as "you would feel the loss of a stepchild less deeply than the loss of a 'real' child"

That's why it comes across as slightly belittling.

Maybe you can't understand that because you've never been 'just' a step parent.

In reply to Dispater:




Appreciate your honesty. Do you feel any conflict with those feelings? Do you daughters..?

There are many reasons why we me and Mrs TC chose not to have kids - age, finances, freedom, etc....one of mine is partly that that situation could arise. I don't know how it would sit with me if I felt that kind difference of emotion...

In reply to ThunderCat:




My comment was definitely not meant to sound like that. It was just a thought of mine that someone with an 8 year old daughter and who is the exact same age as Gerry McCann could probably empathise with him more than a 26 year old with no kids.
I think if you asked 100 people that question you know what the majority answer would be.
When I was 26 the thought of having kids filled me with dread and anything to do with other people's kids was the most boring subject in the world.

E

In reply to Oli:

I didn't mean to belittle anyone either.

I have a step son and two of my own (one of each) and for me I have a greater understanding of mine than the stepson, I love them all but it's just different.

I did come form a stand point of not wanting kids until I was told I was having one, even then I was happy. Being at the birth and witnessing it all changed my view and my perception.

In the same way as I now know the difference between the parental bond between sons and daughters, there's a gulf of difference.

I wasn't trying to put people down or to imply I'm better than anyone else.

I just know that I presumed, before I had kids, what it would be like and it's nothing like my presumption.

I have had this discussion before and fell out with friends, for a short time, over it, but you can't really know what it's like until you experience it for yourself. Like most things really.

In reply to ThunderCat:



My feelings for my step-daughters never changed when my daughter was born, so I didn't experience any guilt that that may have caused. I just had a new person in my life, about whom I felt differently.

Unfortunately, my wife and I split 18 months ago, and we are now divorced. Trying to find a quick way to refer to her girls (ex step daughters sounds wrong) has been mildly tricky. I've settled on my ex wife's other two daughters. :-/

I found being a step parent very hard work and thankless on the whole.

Again, my precise experience is obviously unique to me.