UKC

I got to the top of a route yesterday, clipped into the in-situ rope-around-tree, went to lean back and - holy-bejaysus-that's-a-reef-knot - quickly leaned forward again.

Then again, it had a maillon on it and there was no body on the ground below, so maybe it's not as unsafe as I think? I've always assumed reef knots are way too slippery for that sort of use.

In reply to Andy Moles:

some people join ropes of equal diameter with a reef knot (with stopper knots) for abseiling. I don't like it personally but the knot does come undone more easily than a double fishermans.

In reply to franksnb:

This had no stopper knots.

In reply to Andy Moles:

crazy plan - it can turn in to a slip knot!

I would generally use a double fishermans for this purpose but a single overhand would also be OK IMO.

In reply to Andy Moles:

The issue isn't knot strength per se - its the fact that the reef knot is easily upset into something very unsafe. In sailing the tails would be 'seized' back to the main part to prevent this.

In reply to franksnb:

effectively a double fisherman(?)'s with a reef knot in the middle to aid undoing.
Good knot for that purpose (joining rope where there is no possibility of it getting stuck)
I don't use it anymore - i am now a O/H convert

I would use a straight double or triple fisherman's depending on how much rope I had
(rarely if ever an O/H don't see the point at an ab station, it's not like you don't have
time or hanging off with one hand),

OP: no way would i use off a reef knot.

In reply to Andy Moles:

If it's a double-fishermans with a reef knot in the middle to help with undoing it, then it is a recognised knot and safe for the purpose (presuming it is well tied). I've abseiled off that a few times. If it is an in-situ abseil station, though, you don't need it to be easy to untie, so just the double fishermans would be more sensible, since you want it to get tight and be hard to untie or come loose.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

It wasn't.

Basically, I'm being a bit disingenuous. I know perfectly well that a lone reef knot isn't safe, I was just flagging up the fact that some nutter apparently abseiled off one and got away with it. It was at the top of an E2 as well, so presumably not a total beginner.

In reply to Andy Moles:


OK. I agree that a simple reef knot is not appropriate.

In reply to Andy Moles:



As a one off, if you loaded the loop carefully to avoid upsetting the knot, you almost certainly would 'get away with it'

In reply to GrahamD:

So it would be prone to upsetting from loading and unloading repeatedly?

In reply to Andy Moles:



" some nutter apparently abseiled off one "

Unfortunately I am no longer surprised by the LCD in society.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Liquid-Crystal Display...?

In reply to Andy Moles:



Lone reef knot? Bonkers.
Reef knot with fishermans each sid eon the tails? Sensible for joining ropes for abbing but can't see the point at a fixed station

In reply to Andy Moles:
Lowest Common Denominator

numnuts

In reply to Rick Graham:

Makes your comment a bit less surreal, I'm disappointed.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Sorry

In reply to franksnb:


Yeah, I used to do that in the days before the Euro Death Knot became standard practice.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Repeatedly ? I'd say it was prone immediately after the first person unweighted it !

In reply to Andy Moles:

Just out of interest, my understanding is that a reef knot is particularly useful for joining ropes of different diameters together. Is this correct?

In reply to Graham Hoey:

I thought double fisherman's was considered the best for that, but I could be wrong.

In reply to Graham Hoey:

That's a sheet bend.

Reef knot and two snug stopper knots OK for two not too dissimilar ropes.

To attach a tag line I prefer a screwgate krab and 2 Fig 8's.

In reply to Andy Moles:

A reef knot, as its name implies was originally used to 'reef sails' - ie reducing the amount of sail on a ship. This know was used because one tug on one end tips the knot and it can easily be undone with one hand (one hand for the ship and one hand for yourself). Pulling a reef knot over an obstacle will achieve the same result.

I wouldn't use it for this!! at least without a stopper knot.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Bloody hell. I never knew that. Just tried it - scary.

In reply to Andy Moles:

reef knots are fine for "reefing" a sail. but i personally wouldn't abb on one. its funny people say bowlines are not to be used without a stopper but in sailing they get used for everything!

In reply to Craigyboy13:

they use different sorts of ropes, ive always thought rope construction would affect the
holding power of knots

In reply to Andy Moles:

Rope construction does affect the holding power of knots. Some knots work better on some types of rope. Generally speaking rougher less stretchy types of rope hold better than smooth stretchy ropes . This is of course why fishermen and other people use different knots for the same purpose - no angler would use a knot climbers use for tying two lengths of rope together!!

To undo a sheet bend, hold one of the longer ends of the rope (the 'standing part') up in one hand with the knot hanging below it. Then grab hold of one of the short free ends of the knot with the other hand. Tug hard downwards on this with your free hand. Let go with the free hand then grab the whole knot again with this hand firmly and pull downwards. Hey presto the knots undone!!

(easier done than described!!)

In reply to Andy Moles:

Had me going there, was thinking "I've trusted this man with my kids safety" Hope all's well

In reply to Andy Moles:

Could depend on the type of cord used. Polypropylene is slippery and resistant but a knot in normal climbing rope will bed-in once dressed. Could be useful because it uses up less length than a double fisherman's.

In reply to GrahamD:


No, in sailing you'd use the knot for its intended purpose. Which is not joining ropes.

In reply to Dave Perry:


Yep, it's for tying up the bunt of the sail (bundling up the surplus sailcloth). It's a knot, not a bend, and should never be used as one.

So, sure, it's safe with the double fisherman's, but it's misleading to think of that as a reef knot with stoppers when it's more properly a double fisherman's with reef knot separator.

In reply to Craigyboy13:


But context is everything! And there's a huge difference between tying on your jib sheets with straight bowlines and tying into your climbing harness the same way.

In reply to Andy Moles:

And of course the ropes on ships, yachts and boats isn't the same elastic stuff we use for climbing.

Its the elasticity & construction of climbing ropes which present a unique list of problems when it comes to tying knots - or bends in our ropes.

You can tie up super tankers on bowlines. And you'll never, ever see one backed up with a stopper knot. The rope just doesn't need it.

In reply to petestack:


I can only speak for myself and people I sailed with. We used reef knots to join ropes together quite happily.

In reply to Andy Moles:

For those who have never heqard of waist lines - used a reef knot all the time. Never came undone. Would still back up with a hitch or two these days.

In reply to anyone and everyone:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ashley+misused+reef+knot+deaths

In reply to petestack:

It's a load of b......x, the preffered knot of most guides these days is a simple overhand knot with long tails. The point being this is not going to come undone and the knot itself rolls over obstructions rather than getting stuck behind them.

In reply to Al Evans:

For sure, but the question was 'Would you tie off abseil tat with a reef knot?' To which my answer is 'no'. So, yes, I'd join my abseil ropes with the overhand and, yes, I'd tie off my ab tat with the double fisherman's... but, no, I'd never, ever join two ropes together (or tie off my ab tat) with a simple reef knot!

In reply to Andy Moles:

Yes. Hard to get any other knot to make a sensible loop from the sleeve ripped of a BriNylon shirt.
Generally no though.