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This looks like a good laugh, and a good way to get some of the less well traveled lines back into action.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/arcteryx-lakeland-revival
Anyone fancy doing one or two this Weds/Thurs?
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/arcteryx-lakeland-revival
Anyone fancy doing one or two this Weds/Thurs?
In reply to CharlieMack:
Thanks for pointing this out. Most interesting. I'd have been better disposed to it had it not been for the inappropriate use of the (to a grumpy old bu**er like me) odious expression "sent" in juxtaposition to a reference to Coleridge as Lakeland pioneer as well as the listing of "Communist Convert" as "Communist Corner" and the mis-spelling of "Gnomon"
Still, maybe it's too much to ask to get an excellent initiative such as this and respectfully diligent research (or at least proof reading) at one and the same time?
A friend did Delilah, and had a cursory look at Gethsemane a week or so ago and was surprised to find such very good climbs a bit mucky, more than a bit in the latter case, it would seem. So, yes, a well worthwhile notion. I can't yet commit to a day later this week but will be bearing this in mind for the rest of the summer.
(I was going to bring my pedantry to bear also on the mis-spelling of Nebuchadnezzar but note that the current FMC guide book has it wrong too).
Thanks for pointing this out. Most interesting. I'd have been better disposed to it had it not been for the inappropriate use of the (to a grumpy old bu**er like me) odious expression "sent" in juxtaposition to a reference to Coleridge as Lakeland pioneer as well as the listing of "Communist Convert" as "Communist Corner" and the mis-spelling of "Gnomon"
Still, maybe it's too much to ask to get an excellent initiative such as this and respectfully diligent research (or at least proof reading) at one and the same time?
A friend did Delilah, and had a cursory look at Gethsemane a week or so ago and was surprised to find such very good climbs a bit mucky, more than a bit in the latter case, it would seem. So, yes, a well worthwhile notion. I can't yet commit to a day later this week but will be bearing this in mind for the rest of the summer.
(I was going to bring my pedantry to bear also on the mis-spelling of Nebuchadnezzar but note that the current FMC guide book has it wrong too).
Post edited at 12:01
In reply to Martin Bennett:
And Mungrisdale and Westmorland don't have "e" in the middle.
No substitute for attention to detail and true professionalism.
DC
> (I was going to bring my pedantry to bear also on the mis-spelling of Nebuchadnezzar but note that the current FMC guide book has it wrong too).
And Mungrisdale and Westmorland don't have "e" in the middle.
No substitute for attention to detail and true professionalism.
DC
In reply to CharlieMack:
There's a little more information here too: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=6516
I hope to get over to the Lakes over the next few weeks, fingers crossed this weather stays the same....
There's a little more information here too: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=6516
I hope to get over to the Lakes over the next few weeks, fingers crossed this weather stays the same....
In reply to CharlieMack:
Great End Corner please, and all the previously starred routes on Green Crag and Car Park Crag, Lining, Lower Falcon and Gowder. Dalehead Pillar, Easter Buttress, Harlequin, Clown, Hanging Chimneys, Carnival too as mentioned. Red groove on Pavey.
Take scythes/grasshooks for the bracken as some of these crags you can't even get to now, esp. Lower Falcon and Great End.
DC
Great End Corner please, and all the previously starred routes on Green Crag and Car Park Crag, Lining, Lower Falcon and Gowder. Dalehead Pillar, Easter Buttress, Harlequin, Clown, Hanging Chimneys, Carnival too as mentioned. Red groove on Pavey.
Take scythes/grasshooks for the bracken as some of these crags you can't even get to now, esp. Lower Falcon and Great End.
DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
I remember going to Dale Head Pillar thirty years ago and it was filthy then! Green Crag might just take up all available manpower!!
I'd suggest Eagle Crag, Borrowdale as being worthy of attention.
I remember going to Dale Head Pillar thirty years ago and it was filthy then! Green Crag might just take up all available manpower!!
I'd suggest Eagle Crag, Borrowdale as being worthy of attention.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Cleaned a couple of routes on Lining Crag a couple of years ago. Unsure how this wonderful growing season might have affected 'em since!
Cleaned a couple of routes on Lining Crag a couple of years ago. Unsure how this wonderful growing season might have affected 'em since!
In reply to CharlieMack:
Totalitarian had at least one ascent about a month ago. Chalk was present on the second pitch of Empire but it looked as the climbers had bailed before the top pitch.
No Holds Barred had ascents 3 years ago, not sure on current state of play but Great End Crag had some regular summer cleaning during that period.
Vesper had an ascent a couple of weeks ago (and there was chalk on it) but the first pitch is very mossy and would be a lot harder/serious under humid or damp conditions.
The Squawk had an ascent probably 6 years ago, but the top groove required some cleaning of lichen with a nut key then. The problem with the state of routes at eagle seems to be due to limited summer access and the nesting restrictions (can't remember quite what the current situation is).
Cascade seems to get ascended reasonably regularly, cleaning wasn't required on an ascent 3 years ago.
Guidebook work and checking has been undertaken on a number of Borrowdale crags recently - certainly including Steel Knotts, Castle Crag,Doves Nest, Lining crag and Perched Block Buttress. In particular, Steel Knotts and Castle crag have seen a significant number of routes ascended.
Totalitarian had at least one ascent about a month ago. Chalk was present on the second pitch of Empire but it looked as the climbers had bailed before the top pitch.
No Holds Barred had ascents 3 years ago, not sure on current state of play but Great End Crag had some regular summer cleaning during that period.
Vesper had an ascent a couple of weeks ago (and there was chalk on it) but the first pitch is very mossy and would be a lot harder/serious under humid or damp conditions.
The Squawk had an ascent probably 6 years ago, but the top groove required some cleaning of lichen with a nut key then. The problem with the state of routes at eagle seems to be due to limited summer access and the nesting restrictions (can't remember quite what the current situation is).
Cascade seems to get ascended reasonably regularly, cleaning wasn't required on an ascent 3 years ago.
Guidebook work and checking has been undertaken on a number of Borrowdale crags recently - certainly including Steel Knotts, Castle Crag,Doves Nest, Lining crag and Perched Block Buttress. In particular, Steel Knotts and Castle crag have seen a significant number of routes ascended.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Good idea about Car Park Crag (that was thought about when the list was finalised - especially as it is so close to the road.
Green Crag or Dale Head Pillar are not really worth it now unfortunately.
Good idea about Car Park Crag (that was thought about when the list was finalised - especially as it is so close to the road.
Green Crag or Dale Head Pillar are not really worth it now unfortunately.
In reply to NickJH:
I did Cascade last week, it's a good route but you can hit the deck on the traverse on the first pitch quite easily. The first belay is poor due to the peg rusting away. Second pitch is a belter.
Regarding some of these other awful crags such as Raven at Thirlmere, Lining crag, Green crag, why bother.
The routes on high crag are popular and don't need cleaning.
Can I suggest whoever writes the Lake district guides removes the rose tinted specs, or goes to spec savers, as for those routes at Rannerdale Knotts do they even exist?
> Totalitarian had at least one ascent about a month ago. Chalk was present on the second pitch of Empire but it looked as the climbers had bailed before the top pitch.
> No Holds Barred had ascents 3 years ago, not sure on current state of play but Great End Crag had some regular summer cleaning during that period.
> Vesper had an ascent a couple of weeks ago (and there was chalk on it) but the first pitch is very mossy and would be a lot harder/serious under humid or damp conditions.
> The Squawk had an ascent probably 6 years ago, but the top groove required some cleaning of lichen with a nut key then. The problem with the state of routes at eagle seems to be due to limited summer access and the nesting restrictions (can't remember quite what the current situation is).
> Cascade seems to get ascended reasonably regularly, cleaning wasn't required on an ascent 3 years ago.
> Guidebook work and checking has been undertaken on a number of Borrowdale crags recently - certainly including Steel Knotts, Castle Crag,Doves Nest, Lining crag and Perched Block Buttress. In particular, Steel Knotts and Castle crag have seen a significant number of routes ascended.
I did Cascade last week, it's a good route but you can hit the deck on the traverse on the first pitch quite easily. The first belay is poor due to the peg rusting away. Second pitch is a belter.
Regarding some of these other awful crags such as Raven at Thirlmere, Lining crag, Green crag, why bother.
The routes on high crag are popular and don't need cleaning.
Can I suggest whoever writes the Lake district guides removes the rose tinted specs, or goes to spec savers, as for those routes at Rannerdale Knotts do they even exist?
In reply to Gael Force:
Yes they do exist.
They were really close to where i used to live.....and i often drove past them on the way to somewhere better. Anywhere in fact !
Yes they do exist.
They were really close to where i used to live.....and i often drove past them on the way to somewhere better. Anywhere in fact !
In reply to CharlieMack:
so in winter we encourage people to be nice to plants but in summer its out with the glyphosate - I'm confused
popular routes stay clean by dint of the traffic
less frequented lines (generally of a poorer quality) will become overgrown and the preserve of the slime climber
it's what the people want
so in winter we encourage people to be nice to plants but in summer its out with the glyphosate - I'm confused
popular routes stay clean by dint of the traffic
less frequented lines (generally of a poorer quality) will become overgrown and the preserve of the slime climber
it's what the people want
In reply to John Kelly:
Not quite so simplistic.
Its a vicious circle. Routes become less popular because of the increasing vegetation.
Bring back acid rain.
Not quite so simplistic.
Its a vicious circle. Routes become less popular because of the increasing vegetation.
Bring back acid rain.
In reply to Rick Graham:
well maybe but i have never turned back from a route because of the vegetation so far (lots of other reasons, fear generally being the main problem)
your experience different?
did acid rain not keep the planet cool - i think i may support you slightly controversial stance on this
well maybe but i have never turned back from a route because of the vegetation so far (lots of other reasons, fear generally being the main problem)
your experience different?
did acid rain not keep the planet cool - i think i may support you slightly controversial stance on this
Post edited at 21:39
In reply to CharlieMack:
did Extol on Friday, not that bad really, cleaned a bit of moss off the top arete, but perfectly climbable in that the steep bits are clean.
friends did Carnival last month and didn't report any great problems.
stuff is getting done thanks to a pretty dry summer (so far).
did Extol on Friday, not that bad really, cleaned a bit of moss off the top arete, but perfectly climbable in that the steep bits are clean.
friends did Carnival last month and didn't report any great problems.
stuff is getting done thanks to a pretty dry summer (so far).
In reply to Rick Graham:
>Routes become less popular because of the increasing vegetation.
Not your ones the amount of 'care' they were getting the other night on Raven!
>Routes become less popular because of the increasing vegetation.
Not your ones the amount of 'care' they were getting the other night on Raven!
In reply to biscuit:
Have you ever done them though, not sure they do exist I could never find anything approaching a climb there...
Have you ever done them though, not sure they do exist I could never find anything approaching a climb there...
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
Surely that's the whole point of a cleaning exercise Ron?
Start where most needed.
Otherwise we lose them forever.
Dalehead Pillar is a brilliant route.
DC
> Green Crag or Dale Head Pillar are not really worth it now unfortunately.
Surely that's the whole point of a cleaning exercise Ron?
Start where most needed.
Otherwise we lose them forever.
Dalehead Pillar is a brilliant route.
DC
In reply to Gael Force:
I'd take issue with your "why bother?" in regard to Lining Crag at least. I went there for the first time a couple of years ago helping a chum with guide book efforts - it's in a beautiful, little frequented it seems (never saw a soul all day) corner of the Lakes and worth it for that alone.
I don't think we should give up on Green Crag either - when it was at it's most popular the climbing was good and could be again I think. And "The Wray" is still on my to do list.
Never was so keen on Raven Thirlmere.
I'd take issue with your "why bother?" in regard to Lining Crag at least. I went there for the first time a couple of years ago helping a chum with guide book efforts - it's in a beautiful, little frequented it seems (never saw a soul all day) corner of the Lakes and worth it for that alone.
I don't think we should give up on Green Crag either - when it was at it's most popular the climbing was good and could be again I think. And "The Wray" is still on my to do list.
Never was so keen on Raven Thirlmere.
In reply to CharlieMack:
While we are on the topic of cleaning routes, conserving our local climbing heritage and all the local effort that has gone into that for many years, esp. from CD and other locals, what on earth has this got to with feathery dinosaurs, Archaeopteryx or whoever they are?
DC
While we are on the topic of cleaning routes, conserving our local climbing heritage and all the local effort that has gone into that for many years, esp. from CD and other locals, what on earth has this got to with feathery dinosaurs, Archaeopteryx or whoever they are?
DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Because for once a gear firm has decided to throw a bit of free kit at ordinary punters who perform a public service by putting in some time and effort to help clean neglected routes at accessible grades, rather than at sponsored superstars who put up routes that 99.999% of us will never get near. It probably says a lot about UKC that this has lead to interminable moaning for no apparent reason.
Because for once a gear firm has decided to throw a bit of free kit at ordinary punters who perform a public service by putting in some time and effort to help clean neglected routes at accessible grades, rather than at sponsored superstars who put up routes that 99.999% of us will never get near. It probably says a lot about UKC that this has lead to interminable moaning for no apparent reason.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
Hi, Re your comment it's worth going because it's secluded, that's not why I go to do climbs really. I like to know if climbs are poor in advance, that's why I use a guidebook, and there are far too many climbs in the FRCC guides which are absolutely rubbish which have stars. Examples near where I live are Ling crag,Round How, Sheepbone buttress, Striddle crag, all a waste of time. Buckstone Howe is another fairly awful loose crag, nasty accident there the other day. Probably they have even more stars now than in my 87 guide.
Sometimes I think it's about selling guides, can't believe anybody can think the routes are really that good. In fairness I have to say that when I did a new climb I usually wanted a star for it, but in hindsight they didn't deserve any and the editor should sort that out.
> I'd take issue with your "why bother?" in regard to Lining Crag at least. I went there for the first time a couple of years ago helping a chum with guide book efforts - it's in a beautiful, little frequented it seems (never saw a soul all day) corner of the Lakes and worth it for that alone.
> I don't think we should give up on Green Crag either - when it was at it's most popular the climbing was good and could be again I think. And "The Wray" is still on my to do list.
> Never was so keen on Raven Thirlmere.
Hi, Re your comment it's worth going because it's secluded, that's not why I go to do climbs really. I like to know if climbs are poor in advance, that's why I use a guidebook, and there are far too many climbs in the FRCC guides which are absolutely rubbish which have stars. Examples near where I live are Ling crag,Round How, Sheepbone buttress, Striddle crag, all a waste of time. Buckstone Howe is another fairly awful loose crag, nasty accident there the other day. Probably they have even more stars now than in my 87 guide.
Sometimes I think it's about selling guides, can't believe anybody can think the routes are really that good. In fairness I have to say that when I did a new climb I usually wanted a star for it, but in hindsight they didn't deserve any and the editor should sort that out.
Post edited at 15:20
In reply to Gael Force:
That's been my take on stars for a long time - the cry from the publishers is "It's what the punters want". I was co-author of the CC Eifionydd guide (Cwm Silyn, that area), if a route got a star then it deserved it. To get two stars then it had to stand out from all the one star routes and to get three stars it had to stand out from the two star routes. I think I only gave five routes three stars.
Examples from where I live - all of Yorkshire! There really is some tripe given three stars - three black spots would be more accurate.
That's been my take on stars for a long time - the cry from the publishers is "It's what the punters want". I was co-author of the CC Eifionydd guide (Cwm Silyn, that area), if a route got a star then it deserved it. To get two stars then it had to stand out from all the one star routes and to get three stars it had to stand out from the two star routes. I think I only gave five routes three stars.
Examples from where I live - all of Yorkshire! There really is some tripe given three stars - three black spots would be more accurate.
In reply to Gael Force:
Buckstone is a great crag with a fine history, Alexas got a good cleaning not long ago. By the way the recent rescue which we witnessed is not listed on either Keswick or Cockermouth MRT website.
> Buckstone Howe is another fairly awful loose crag, nasty accident there the other day.
Buckstone is a great crag with a fine history, Alexas got a good cleaning not long ago. By the way the recent rescue which we witnessed is not listed on either Keswick or Cockermouth MRT website.
In reply to Gael Force:
Which ones on which Raven Crag?
On High crag Buttermere, last weekend, HCB,Geth.... and Delilah were all climbed without any adverse comments except that the described start to HCB could do with a clean but still very climbable.
Buckstone Howe is not that dirty either, all it really needs is for folk to pick at it a bit on every ascent.
A fixed abseil on the right side of High Crag would help the regular cleaning process. The routes on the Samson wall below the most popular ab off are virtually spotless.
> the amount of 'care' they were getting the other night on Raven!
Which ones on which Raven Crag?
On High crag Buttermere, last weekend, HCB,Geth.... and Delilah were all climbed without any adverse comments except that the described start to HCB could do with a clean but still very climbable.
Buckstone Howe is not that dirty either, all it really needs is for folk to pick at it a bit on every ascent.
A fixed abseil on the right side of High Crag would help the regular cleaning process. The routes on the Samson wall below the most popular ab off are virtually spotless.
In reply to Bob:
Did it sell any copies ?
> "It's what the punters want". I was co-author of the CC Eifionydd guide (Cwm Silyn, that area),
Did it sell any copies ?
In reply to Rick Graham:
Last time I was on High Crag there were three abseil points including one to the RH side.
Last time I was on High Crag there were three abseil points including one to the RH side.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Your new one in Langdale, apres ascent of course, can't remember the name it's not in the guide yet, something to with planets maybe
Your new one in Langdale, apres ascent of course, can't remember the name it's not in the guide yet, something to with planets maybe
In reply to Bob:
Exactly if some obscure rubbishy route gets two stars then Scafell classics should get 5.
Dave Cumberland,
I've not climbed on Buckstone Howe for a while but it was the loose rock rather than moss that was the problem.
The accident, (hope he's ok) may be down as Yew Crag, because Buckstone Howe is called that on the OS map.
Exactly if some obscure rubbishy route gets two stars then Scafell classics should get 5.
Dave Cumberland,
I've not climbed on Buckstone Howe for a while but it was the loose rock rather than moss that was the problem.
The accident, (hope he's ok) may be down as Yew Crag, because Buckstone Howe is called that on the OS map.
Post edited at 19:27
In reply to Gael Force:
I'm with you all the way on the preponderance of stars, most particularly in recent FRCC guides. I was led to understand it was an effort to spread the load, thin out the crowds at the honeypots. The CC tried the opposite approach with a Tremadog guide a few years ago - it had no stars at all. It would seem neither approach has been successful or met with universal approval. We seem also to agree about Buckstone How - it's best feature is perhaps it's easy approach. Dunno about Ling Crag and Sheepbone as I've never been to either though I did go to Striddle Crag in 1965. In all of the intervening 49 years I haven't returned - says it all. I guess you mean the Buttermere Round How - I'd thought of trying it - maybe I should give it a miss?
I also agree about the temptation to give stars to new routes, not that I've done that many, so it hasn't been a major headache for me.
Where I will continue to differ with you is in extolling the virtues of obscure locations and the subtle delights to be found at them. After all, as a climbing friend of mine is wont to remark, sagely in my opinion, "there's more to climbing than climbing".
I'm with you all the way on the preponderance of stars, most particularly in recent FRCC guides. I was led to understand it was an effort to spread the load, thin out the crowds at the honeypots. The CC tried the opposite approach with a Tremadog guide a few years ago - it had no stars at all. It would seem neither approach has been successful or met with universal approval. We seem also to agree about Buckstone How - it's best feature is perhaps it's easy approach. Dunno about Ling Crag and Sheepbone as I've never been to either though I did go to Striddle Crag in 1965. In all of the intervening 49 years I haven't returned - says it all. I guess you mean the Buttermere Round How - I'd thought of trying it - maybe I should give it a miss?
I also agree about the temptation to give stars to new routes, not that I've done that many, so it hasn't been a major headache for me.
Where I will continue to differ with you is in extolling the virtues of obscure locations and the subtle delights to be found at them. After all, as a climbing friend of mine is wont to remark, sagely in my opinion, "there's more to climbing than climbing".
In reply to Bob:
It would be nice if there were "half a star" available to distinguish the quite pleasant from the dross. The SMC have effectively done this by adopting a 4 star system, which IMO has worked well.
Of course some of us still seek out no-star routes anyway
> if a route got a star then it deserved it. To get two stars then it had to stand out from all the one star routes and to get three stars it had to stand out from the two star routes.
It would be nice if there were "half a star" available to distinguish the quite pleasant from the dross. The SMC have effectively done this by adopting a 4 star system, which IMO has worked well.
Of course some of us still seek out no-star routes anyway
In reply to Gael Force:
>Examples near where I live are Ling crag,Round How, Sheepbone buttress, Striddle crag, all a waste of time. Buckstone Howe is another fairly awful loose crag, nasty accident there the other day.
I'll have to disagree with you again, I really enjoyed Round How, nice approach from Honister, wonderfully rough rock and the two E1's were really good I thought, if a little bold. Buckstone How is a great crag, I keep finding hidden gems, Encroacher which I did last month is a great route. Yes the finishes are loose but they are on Scafell too. Not been to Sheepbone yet, but its on the list.
There have been nasty accidents on many Lakeland crags, doesn't mean they are carp.
Off course all this is subjective and you are entitled to your opinion, but if you live in the Lakes and climb regularly you don't want to spend ALL your time at Shepherds and Castle Rock - do you?
> (In reply to Martin Bennett)
>Examples near where I live are Ling crag,Round How, Sheepbone buttress, Striddle crag, all a waste of time. Buckstone Howe is another fairly awful loose crag, nasty accident there the other day.
I'll have to disagree with you again, I really enjoyed Round How, nice approach from Honister, wonderfully rough rock and the two E1's were really good I thought, if a little bold. Buckstone How is a great crag, I keep finding hidden gems, Encroacher which I did last month is a great route. Yes the finishes are loose but they are on Scafell too. Not been to Sheepbone yet, but its on the list.
There have been nasty accidents on many Lakeland crags, doesn't mean they are carp.
Off course all this is subjective and you are entitled to your opinion, but if you live in the Lakes and climb regularly you don't want to spend ALL your time at Shepherds and Castle Rock - do you?
Post edited at 23:34
In reply to Gael Force:
The accident or exercise? took place directly below Sinister Grooves, about 100 feet down the scree, we watched it, team plus very active flying around from RAF due to gusty winds.
DC
> The accident, (hope he's ok) may be down as Yew Crag, because Buckstone Howe is called that on the OS map.
The accident or exercise? took place directly below Sinister Grooves, about 100 feet down the scree, we watched it, team plus very active flying around from RAF due to gusty winds.
DC
In reply to Dave Ferguson: I don't go to either Shepherds or Castle rock, done all the routes there I can do.My point is the the FRCC guidebooks give too many stars or recommend too many poor routes,however you want to look at it. Probably to sell guidebooks, who knows...who cares...
In reply to Gael Force:
I agree with you on the use of stars and have always advocated a no star policy with the route description suggesting if the route is worth doing or not. I know this isn't a popular way of doing things re: the old tremadog guide.
I think we just differ as to what constitutes a good route by the sound of it.
I agree with you on the use of stars and have always advocated a no star policy with the route description suggesting if the route is worth doing or not. I know this isn't a popular way of doing things re: the old tremadog guide.
I think we just differ as to what constitutes a good route by the sound of it.
In reply to Gael Force:
I don't think the stars make any difference to selling the guides.
The Langdale starring was an experiment to get folk onto more routes. Feel though should be consistent with that starring
Could look at the Scottish system with four stars - or Joshua Tree with five stars.
I was in Paklenika recently and there there is a two stars system - and to complicate things it is one big star for the best routes and two lesser stars for the good routes
I have an old guide for Val de Mello which has different sizes of beer glasses for the quality and a bottle of champagne for the best.
There have been debates on stars - Extol was a classic Hard Rock route - but now getting over grown. Once it was *** - should it have no stars now - NO - the line in tremendous and if clean (or cleaned up) would be *** - the guide gives it **
Scafell and Wasdale guide was more sparing with stars - but probably about there with them - but with a slight departure with - Lord of the Rings at ***** and White Wizard at **** .
I always have a funny feeling about Buckstone How - usually enjoy the routes when I am there though tread carefully and wear a helmet all the time. It is the nature of the place - Miners Crag has a similar feel.
Round How is a great little crag - what a situation with good climbs.
I don't think the stars make any difference to selling the guides.
The Langdale starring was an experiment to get folk onto more routes. Feel though should be consistent with that starring
Could look at the Scottish system with four stars - or Joshua Tree with five stars.
I was in Paklenika recently and there there is a two stars system - and to complicate things it is one big star for the best routes and two lesser stars for the good routes
I have an old guide for Val de Mello which has different sizes of beer glasses for the quality and a bottle of champagne for the best.
There have been debates on stars - Extol was a classic Hard Rock route - but now getting over grown. Once it was *** - should it have no stars now - NO - the line in tremendous and if clean (or cleaned up) would be *** - the guide gives it **
Scafell and Wasdale guide was more sparing with stars - but probably about there with them - but with a slight departure with - Lord of the Rings at ***** and White Wizard at **** .
I always have a funny feeling about Buckstone How - usually enjoy the routes when I am there though tread carefully and wear a helmet all the time. It is the nature of the place - Miners Crag has a similar feel.
Round How is a great little crag - what a situation with good climbs.
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
The latest Yorkshire gritstone guides use hollow stars for this, indicating that a route may need some cleaning before it's as good as suggested. So Extol would get 3 hollow stars.
> Extol was a classic Hard Rock route - but now getting over grown. Once it was *** - should it have no stars now - NO - the line in tremendous and if clean (or cleaned up) would be *** - the guide gives it **
The latest Yorkshire gritstone guides use hollow stars for this, indicating that a route may need some cleaning before it's as good as suggested. So Extol would get 3 hollow stars.
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
"I'll have to disagree with you again, I really enjoyed Round How, nice approach from Honister, wonderfully rough rock and the two E1's were really good I thought, if a little bold".
I think you replied to the wrong bloke there Dave - I commented I'd been looking forward to a 1st visit to Round How . . . .
"I'll have to disagree with you again, I really enjoyed Round How, nice approach from Honister, wonderfully rough rock and the two E1's were really good I thought, if a little bold".
I think you replied to the wrong bloke there Dave - I commented I'd been looking forward to a 1st visit to Round How . . . .
In reply to Martin Bennett:
apologies, thought it was Gael Force I was replying to, yes go to Round How. Both the honister one and the one on the corridor route are well worth a visit.
apologies, thought it was Gael Force I was replying to, yes go to Round How. Both the honister one and the one on the corridor route are well worth a visit.
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
I'm not a fan of stars but if we have to have them its a *** route, certainly the most memorable I've done this season by quite a long way. A *** route should not always be clean, accessible and easy to follow - some of the best routes require a bit of graft and a fair proportion of uncertainty as to the end result - these are the true *** experiences and Extol is one of them.
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>
>
> There have been debates on stars - Extol was a classic Hard Rock route - but now getting over grown. Once it was *** - should it have no stars now - NO - the line in tremendous and if clean (or cleaned up) would be *** - the guide gives it **
>
>
Did Extol last week when it was snuff dry, it was a little dirty but very enjoyable in an "adventurous" sort of way. We managed to rip a bit of moss off the top arete, the rest was fine in that the holds were clean even if the groove wasn't, the steep bits were actually very clean. The friable nature of some of the flakes was more of a concern than any dirt or moss. It would be much more worrying if it was at all damp.>
>
> There have been debates on stars - Extol was a classic Hard Rock route - but now getting over grown. Once it was *** - should it have no stars now - NO - the line in tremendous and if clean (or cleaned up) would be *** - the guide gives it **
>
>
I'm not a fan of stars but if we have to have them its a *** route, certainly the most memorable I've done this season by quite a long way. A *** route should not always be clean, accessible and easy to follow - some of the best routes require a bit of graft and a fair proportion of uncertainty as to the end result - these are the true *** experiences and Extol is one of them.
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
'best routes require a bit of graft and a fair proportion of uncertainty as to the end result - these are the true *** experiences'
LIKE
'best routes require a bit of graft and a fair proportion of uncertainty as to the end result - these are the true *** experiences'
LIKE
Post edited at 18:53
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
Good on yer - Extol leaves that "lasting feeling" - even after "god knows how many years" since I did it.
Good on yer - Extol leaves that "lasting feeling" - even after "god knows how many years" since I did it.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Great to see lots of positive comments about Extol .. one of the lakes mountain routes that really left a lasting impression .
Great to see lots of positive comments about Extol .. one of the lakes mountain routes that really left a lasting impression .
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
Hear hear. About 1982 for me. Drizzling but the route stayed dry (ish) except for the top 10 feet of impossibly greasy arête, when I unashamedly accepted a top rope from none other than N'umberland maestros John Earl and Bob Smith who's done an early ascent of Asolo.
Hear hear. About 1982 for me. Drizzling but the route stayed dry (ish) except for the top 10 feet of impossibly greasy arête, when I unashamedly accepted a top rope from none other than N'umberland maestros John Earl and Bob Smith who's done an early ascent of Asolo.
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
Been to the Scafell area Round How and liked it. Thanks for the tip about the Buttermere one - back on the list.
> apologies, thought it was Gael Force I was replying to, yes go to Round How. Both the honister one and the one on the corridor route are well worth a visit.
Been to the Scafell area Round How and liked it. Thanks for the tip about the Buttermere one - back on the list.
In reply to Gael Force:
It's just where you park the car in the little layby on the left. There's a public footpath that has a drystone wall on both sides and leads to the stream etc.
Have i ever done them ?
No, they look $hit.
> Have you ever done them though, not sure they do exist I could never find anything approaching a climb there...
It's just where you park the car in the little layby on the left. There's a public footpath that has a drystone wall on both sides and leads to the stream etc.
Have i ever done them ?
No, they look $hit.
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
One of the few (perhaps only) Lakeland "classic" that I never wish to do again. Did the big three of Dovedale Grooves, Hiraeath and Extol one day, Extol was by far the worst of the three, Hiraeath was brilliant.
One of the few (perhaps only) Lakeland "classic" that I never wish to do again. Did the big three of Dovedale Grooves, Hiraeath and Extol one day, Extol was by far the worst of the three, Hiraeath was brilliant.
In reply to Bob:
Not any more. Dirtiest of the three, and probably the least climbable at the moment.
Are you volunteering, Bob?
> Hiraeath was brilliant.
Not any more. Dirtiest of the three, and probably the least climbable at the moment.
Are you volunteering, Bob?
In reply to Rick Graham:
> Hiraeath was brilliant
That's a shame - I too thought Hiraeth was a great climb - hard for the grade I found it - mind you that was just about my ceiling anyway. Out of the question now.
Every credit to whoever it was said they did it and Dovedale Groove and Extol in the day way back when. Trumps my Llithrig, Diglyph and Vember day.
> Hiraeath was brilliant
> Not any more. Dirtiest of the three, and probably the least climbable at the moment.
That's a shame - I too thought Hiraeth was a great climb - hard for the grade I found it - mind you that was just about my ceiling anyway. Out of the question now.
Every credit to whoever it was said they did it and Dovedale Groove and Extol in the day way back when. Trumps my Llithrig, Diglyph and Vember day.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Err, no!
I'd imagine Phobos is also dirty as it's on the same wall. Did these not get the love during the cleanup a couple of years ago, or was it only the North Buttress routes?
Edit: Something that's not been mentioned so far is that the Lakes rock is naturally dark compared to North Wales even when clean so can look dirty when it isn't. I did Preying Mantis a couple of weeks after the Goat Crag clean-up - there was chalk everywhere and the routes were clean but it still looked as if it hadn't been climbed on for years.
Err, no!
I'd imagine Phobos is also dirty as it's on the same wall. Did these not get the love during the cleanup a couple of years ago, or was it only the North Buttress routes?
Edit: Something that's not been mentioned so far is that the Lakes rock is naturally dark compared to North Wales even when clean so can look dirty when it isn't. I did Preying Mantis a couple of weeks after the Goat Crag clean-up - there was chalk everywhere and the routes were clean but it still looked as if it hadn't been climbed on for years.
Post edited at 07:12
In reply to Bob:
Is British rock just not getting noticeably greener anyway post-improved pollution control/industrial changes? I've read about this on gritstone, but having not climbed on grit much for a decade, I have now a few times this year and it struck me how green it was (along with on popular routes how smooth and worn the holds and gear placements are). Did the Lakes cliffs also become more vegetated or lichen covered after pollution in the air dropped off?
Is British rock just not getting noticeably greener anyway post-improved pollution control/industrial changes? I've read about this on gritstone, but having not climbed on grit much for a decade, I have now a few times this year and it struck me how green it was (along with on popular routes how smooth and worn the holds and gear placements are). Did the Lakes cliffs also become more vegetated or lichen covered after pollution in the air dropped off?
In reply to TobyA:
It could well be a combination of things: cleaner air; a shift in popularity away from the area; change in weather patterns; etc. It's strange that routes where the first ascents and most subsequent ascents were done on sight up until the mid 1980s, so by definition were climbable, are now seen as being so dirty as to be not worth of even attempting. It can't just be the actual state of the routes but more a state of mind or attitude amongst climbers.
Limestone has become more popular and that rock doesn't suffer the build-up of lichen and moss that afflicts volcanic mountain rocks so perhaps climbers have become accustomed to clean rock and don't know how to deal with what appears to be a general carpet of gunge. A sweeping generalisation I know - several of the posters on this thread have been climbing long enough in the Lakes to understand this.
One of the slightly odd side effects of climbs being "dirty" was that the foot and hand holds were actually quite obvious as they were the clean bits!
It could well be a combination of things: cleaner air; a shift in popularity away from the area; change in weather patterns; etc. It's strange that routes where the first ascents and most subsequent ascents were done on sight up until the mid 1980s, so by definition were climbable, are now seen as being so dirty as to be not worth of even attempting. It can't just be the actual state of the routes but more a state of mind or attitude amongst climbers.
Limestone has become more popular and that rock doesn't suffer the build-up of lichen and moss that afflicts volcanic mountain rocks so perhaps climbers have become accustomed to clean rock and don't know how to deal with what appears to be a general carpet of gunge. A sweeping generalisation I know - several of the posters on this thread have been climbing long enough in the Lakes to understand this.
One of the slightly odd side effects of climbs being "dirty" was that the foot and hand holds were actually quite obvious as they were the clean bits!
In reply to Bob:
So no on-sight for you, then!
But I think you're right.
> One of the slightly odd side effects of climbs being "dirty" was that the foot and hand holds were actually quite obvious as they were the clean bits!
So no on-sight for you, then!
But I think you're right.
In reply to jon:
I seem to remember that back then (puts rose tinted spectacles on) we just "climbed".
> So no on-sight for you, then!
I seem to remember that back then (puts rose tinted spectacles on) we just "climbed".
In reply to TobyA:
Did the Lakes cliffs also become more vegetated or lichen covered after pollution in the air dropped off?
Yes they did. It is very noticeable on the Buttermere side of Honister pass. It used to be black and grey rock, dramatic when wet, but in the last few years the vegetation has been creeping in and there is much more green.
Did the Lakes cliffs also become more vegetated or lichen covered after pollution in the air dropped off?
Yes they did. It is very noticeable on the Buttermere side of Honister pass. It used to be black and grey rock, dramatic when wet, but in the last few years the vegetation has been creeping in and there is much more green.
In reply to mockerkin:
So what was it in the polluted air that restricted moss/lichen growth? A general question not aimed specifically at yourself.
So what was it in the polluted air that restricted moss/lichen growth? A general question not aimed specifically at yourself.
In reply to TobyA:
1. A friend of mine believes acid rain has reduced since the industrial revolution, I'm not so sure. Lancashire and Yorkshire mill valleys were blocked by smog except Sundays but why would that affect the Lake District unless the wind was in the south-east? "Acid rain" isn't as fashionable as it used to be (fracking is the new evil) but maybe it is just as bad as always drifting across the Atlantic?
2. There are less climbers - they go overseas, they boulder, most can't afford to live here - any sporting activity is dominated by older people these days. Many retirees have also moved abroad.
3. We have had 20 or more generally cool wet summers - the long dry conditions have not existed apart from occasional years, this has promulgated vegetation growth. Long dry Summers keep the moss away - it's basically a function of heat and sunlight - and there isn't enough.
4. Star system has allowed too much cherry-picking of trade routes and others go into decline.
DC
> Is British rock just not getting noticeably greener anyway post-improved pollution control/industrial changes?
1. A friend of mine believes acid rain has reduced since the industrial revolution, I'm not so sure. Lancashire and Yorkshire mill valleys were blocked by smog except Sundays but why would that affect the Lake District unless the wind was in the south-east? "Acid rain" isn't as fashionable as it used to be (fracking is the new evil) but maybe it is just as bad as always drifting across the Atlantic?
2. There are less climbers - they go overseas, they boulder, most can't afford to live here - any sporting activity is dominated by older people these days. Many retirees have also moved abroad.
3. We have had 20 or more generally cool wet summers - the long dry conditions have not existed apart from occasional years, this has promulgated vegetation growth. Long dry Summers keep the moss away - it's basically a function of heat and sunlight - and there isn't enough.
4. Star system has allowed too much cherry-picking of trade routes and others go into decline.
DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
I'm not sure that your point #3 is valid - my father reckoned that the 1960s were as bad a decade of summers as any he'd known: lots of struggling to get crops in. Many of the classic Lakeland extremes were done in the 1960s ...
It may be humidity rather than temperature per se. (just guessing here)
I'm not sure that your point #3 is valid - my father reckoned that the 1960s were as bad a decade of summers as any he'd known: lots of struggling to get crops in. Many of the classic Lakeland extremes were done in the 1960s ...
It may be humidity rather than temperature per se. (just guessing here)
In reply to Bob:
Yes! Now then, as you mentioned Phobos... on my first of only three visits to Dove crag we started off on Asolo. To our left, in the middle of a very mossy wall, (I think I'm remembering this right) one Chris Bonington was climbing Phobos. I thought it looked great despite the moss so after recovering from the trauma of warming up on Asolo we too did Phobos. Even with Bonington's chalk on it I thought it was very hard for E2 (or whatever it was given then (1988)). Maybe the moss contributed...? Then we went on Fast and Furious and of course all became clear - we'd stumbled on the Lake's spiritual home of undergrading! We went back for a return match with F+F two weeks later doing Dovedale Groove and Extol as warm-ups (I really enjoyed Extol and can't understand why it gets such bad press nowadays). I took a spectacular flier out of the top of F+F's final groove and it wasn't till a year later that the score was finally settled. Great crag!
> I seem to remember that back then (puts rose tinted spectacles on) we just "climbed".
Yes! Now then, as you mentioned Phobos... on my first of only three visits to Dove crag we started off on Asolo. To our left, in the middle of a very mossy wall, (I think I'm remembering this right) one Chris Bonington was climbing Phobos. I thought it looked great despite the moss so after recovering from the trauma of warming up on Asolo we too did Phobos. Even with Bonington's chalk on it I thought it was very hard for E2 (or whatever it was given then (1988)). Maybe the moss contributed...? Then we went on Fast and Furious and of course all became clear - we'd stumbled on the Lake's spiritual home of undergrading! We went back for a return match with F+F two weeks later doing Dovedale Groove and Extol as warm-ups (I really enjoyed Extol and can't understand why it gets such bad press nowadays). I took a spectacular flier out of the top of F+F's final groove and it wasn't till a year later that the score was finally settled. Great crag!
In reply to Bob:
I don't know, not being a chemist.
> (In reply to mockerkin)
>
> So what was it in the polluted air that restricted moss/lichen growth? A general question not aimed specifically at yourself.
>
> So what was it in the polluted air that restricted moss/lichen growth? A general question not aimed specifically at yourself.
I don't know, not being a chemist.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Not my experience at all.
Random examples - Scafell Low Man from Hopkinson's Cairn, no starred Diff, completely clean. Flat Crags, Mary Ann, 2 star VDiff, filthy and vegetated, looks like it's not been climbed for years.
This year I've found that even relatively popular routes are much more vegetated than usual, probably due to the mild wet winter and sunny spring/summer.
> Star system has allowed too much cherry-picking of trade routes and others go into decline.
Not my experience at all.
Random examples - Scafell Low Man from Hopkinson's Cairn, no starred Diff, completely clean. Flat Crags, Mary Ann, 2 star VDiff, filthy and vegetated, looks like it's not been climbed for years.
This year I've found that even relatively popular routes are much more vegetated than usual, probably due to the mild wet winter and sunny spring/summer.
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
http://www.cockermouthmrt.org.uk/callouts.aspx - Incident 44 for 2014
"A climber on Buckstone How took a long leader fall and sustained head and other injuries. He was initially treated on the crag by a team doctor, before being lowered to the ground and transported a short distance to where he could be winched into a RAF Sea King helicopter. He was flown to hospital in Newcastle."
At least, I assume it's that one - as far as I know there have been no others. There's a little more info on the team Facebook page.
> Buckstone is a great crag with a fine history, Alexas got a good cleaning not long ago. By the way the recent rescue which we witnessed is not listed on either Keswick or Cockermouth MRT website.
http://www.cockermouthmrt.org.uk/callouts.aspx - Incident 44 for 2014
"A climber on Buckstone How took a long leader fall and sustained head and other injuries. He was initially treated on the crag by a team doctor, before being lowered to the ground and transported a short distance to where he could be winched into a RAF Sea King helicopter. He was flown to hospital in Newcastle."
At least, I assume it's that one - as far as I know there have been no others. There's a little more info on the team Facebook page.
In reply to jon:
A slight off-topic story: in the 1960s one of the main Lakeland teams was Allan Austin and Eric "Matey" Metcalfe. On the day mentioned above when we did the big three Jason Metcalfe, Eric's son, was climbing Asolo. At the time I was on the front cover of the "Buttermere and Eastern Fells" guidebook and while we were sat eating butties one of the other climbers comes up to me. "It's you isn't it?" and shoves the guidebook in front of me, "You know where things are, where does Dovedale Groove go?" It turned out to be Allan Austin's son. The two sons had never met and just happened to turn up at the crag that day.
A slight off-topic story: in the 1960s one of the main Lakeland teams was Allan Austin and Eric "Matey" Metcalfe. On the day mentioned above when we did the big three Jason Metcalfe, Eric's son, was climbing Asolo. At the time I was on the front cover of the "Buttermere and Eastern Fells" guidebook and while we were sat eating butties one of the other climbers comes up to me. "It's you isn't it?" and shoves the guidebook in front of me, "You know where things are, where does Dovedale Groove go?" It turned out to be Allan Austin's son. The two sons had never met and just happened to turn up at the crag that day.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Apparently not the experience of the CC Tremadoc guide, either. AIUI, taking away the star system just led to people congregating even more on the three star routes that they'd already heard of, where previously they'd sometimes get on the one and two star routes that they hadn't.
But people do love a good moan...
Edit: the "hollow stars" idea does sound smart, though.
> Not my experience at all.
Apparently not the experience of the CC Tremadoc guide, either. AIUI, taking away the star system just led to people congregating even more on the three star routes that they'd already heard of, where previously they'd sometimes get on the one and two star routes that they hadn't.
But people do love a good moan...
Edit: the "hollow stars" idea does sound smart, though.
Post edited at 11:20
In reply to Gael Force:
And, apparently, known as Yew Crag by the mines, and marked as such on all the old mining maps. I'm told it was some offcomer got the two the wrong way round when they wrote the climbing guide
> The accident may be down as Yew Crag, because Buckstone Howe is called that on the OS map.
And, apparently, known as Yew Crag by the mines, and marked as such on all the old mining maps. I'm told it was some offcomer got the two the wrong way round when they wrote the climbing guide
In reply to TobyA:
This is apparently very noticeable at Helsby - never used to get green apparently back in the day. Very closely located to lots of heavy chemical industry.
> Is British rock just not getting noticeably greener anyway post-improved pollution control/industrial changes?
This is apparently very noticeable at Helsby - never used to get green apparently back in the day. Very closely located to lots of heavy chemical industry.
In reply to Gael Force:
Actually none of that is true, except maybe the bit about you wanting a star for your own routes!
FRCC guidebook policy on stars was changed as the old system meant that the few three star routes in the Lakes were getting hammered to death and perfectly good climbs with no stars were hardly ever getting done. It's all explained in any of the recent guides but the result is more or less that old 3 stars = new 3 stars, old 2 stars = new 3 stars, old 1 star = new 2 stars and old 0 star = new 1 star unless they are really poor. A slight exaggeration perhaps but that's more or less the result. So all you have to do is subtract a star, except in the case of 3 star routes when you will at least be doing a 2 star route - simples!
It's not the editor's job to assign stars to routes, that's the guidebook writer's job. The editor just checks for spelling mistakes etc. And in an ideal world the guidebook writer would check every route in the guide, but realistically that's never going to happen. But you've been climbing long enough to realise that guidebooks are never perfect.
> Sometimes I think it's about selling guides, can't believe anybody can think the routes are really that good. In fairness I have to say that when I did a new climb I usually wanted a star for it, but in hindsight they didn't deserve any and the editor should sort that out.
Actually none of that is true, except maybe the bit about you wanting a star for your own routes!
FRCC guidebook policy on stars was changed as the old system meant that the few three star routes in the Lakes were getting hammered to death and perfectly good climbs with no stars were hardly ever getting done. It's all explained in any of the recent guides but the result is more or less that old 3 stars = new 3 stars, old 2 stars = new 3 stars, old 1 star = new 2 stars and old 0 star = new 1 star unless they are really poor. A slight exaggeration perhaps but that's more or less the result. So all you have to do is subtract a star, except in the case of 3 star routes when you will at least be doing a 2 star route - simples!
It's not the editor's job to assign stars to routes, that's the guidebook writer's job. The editor just checks for spelling mistakes etc. And in an ideal world the guidebook writer would check every route in the guide, but realistically that's never going to happen. But you've been climbing long enough to realise that guidebooks are never perfect.
In reply to Bob:
I'm not so sure Bob, I have repeated routes recently that were naturally clean years ago and are now much dirtier. I think increasing lichen and moss is at least a factor. For example Poacher looked pretty dirty when we abbed down it the other week and I always thought of that projecting buttress as being clean (maybe its wishful thinking/memory failure though).
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> It can't just be the actual state of the routes but more a state of mind or attitude amongst climbers.
>
>
> It can't just be the actual state of the routes but more a state of mind or attitude amongst climbers.
>
I'm not so sure Bob, I have repeated routes recently that were naturally clean years ago and are now much dirtier. I think increasing lichen and moss is at least a factor. For example Poacher looked pretty dirty when we abbed down it the other week and I always thought of that projecting buttress as being clean (maybe its wishful thinking/memory failure though).
In reply to harold walmsley:
I would agree - I did Gethsemane and Praying Mantis a couple of years ago and though not too dirty were somewhat greener than they had been last time I did them.
Against that I did Woolly Jumper on Bowfell recently and that was very clean and rough - may be more to do with the type of rock.
I would agree - I did Gethsemane and Praying Mantis a couple of years ago and though not too dirty were somewhat greener than they had been last time I did them.
Against that I did Woolly Jumper on Bowfell recently and that was very clean and rough - may be more to do with the type of rock.
In reply to Ron Kenyon:
So how's the cleaning going lads and lasses? The weather is not kind - global cooling currently, but there have been a few new routes recently.
Any other proposed cleaning venues or routes?
Has anyone done Great End Corner again?
DC
So how's the cleaning going lads and lasses? The weather is not kind - global cooling currently, but there have been a few new routes recently.
Any other proposed cleaning venues or routes?
Has anyone done Great End Corner again?
DC
In reply to Removed User:
I was moving house and countries last week and missed all the interesting replies to my question about air pollution - thanks to everyone. I take (IIRC) Dave's point about where the pollution for the lakes would be coming from - but I remember in the 1980s at least acid rain was an issue of continental or wider complexity. Finland had a lot of damage to its forests from dirty East European industry far to its SW, and obviously the Lakes got hit by Chernobyl fall out from the Ukraine so I guess pollution can move all over and not just with the prevailing SWerlies. I've been spending some time at my parents in the midlands - my child hood home, and I'm struck by how things like vegetation has change over the last 25-30 years, different types of butterflies, things that were common when I was kid not so now; and I guess that must be in part things like strings of warmer/wetter summers, or cold winters etc. I guess its not so much to conclude that Lake district crags could be quite different from the 80s, but then that might well have differed from the 50s?
I was moving house and countries last week and missed all the interesting replies to my question about air pollution - thanks to everyone. I take (IIRC) Dave's point about where the pollution for the lakes would be coming from - but I remember in the 1980s at least acid rain was an issue of continental or wider complexity. Finland had a lot of damage to its forests from dirty East European industry far to its SW, and obviously the Lakes got hit by Chernobyl fall out from the Ukraine so I guess pollution can move all over and not just with the prevailing SWerlies. I've been spending some time at my parents in the midlands - my child hood home, and I'm struck by how things like vegetation has change over the last 25-30 years, different types of butterflies, things that were common when I was kid not so now; and I guess that must be in part things like strings of warmer/wetter summers, or cold winters etc. I guess its not so much to conclude that Lake district crags could be quite different from the 80s, but then that might well have differed from the 50s?
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